AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20

[9:28] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sai
[9:29] Asterion Coen: hey ;)
[9:30] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 9:30 AM: AWGroupies: Weekly AWG meeting (group members only - IM Saijanai Kuhn for invite)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/155/129/23 (Starts now)
[9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Woof! /me waves to Latha
[9:32] Asterion Coen: am i the only one having to wait 3 centuries for rezzing avs ?
[9:32] Mirt Tenk: not a prob here
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: You're ressed to me, Ast
[9:33] Asterion Coen: morgaine, i can see you as well (and saij and dirk)
[9:33] Mirt Tenk: zha coming?
[9:33] Asterion Coen: but that's about all
[9:33] Latha Serevi: Hi, Morgaine. This is my chew toy. It squeaks.
[9:33] Asterion Coen: i dont see latha, so i cant give her food
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Very cute doggie av, best I've seen
[9:34] Dirk Talamasca: It's bad Asterion... Many people having issues. I am fine for the most part but some textures that would normally load quickly stay a bit fuzzy until I click on the object.
[9:34] Asterion Coen: dirk i got some big issues with textures as well
[9:35] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 9:30 AM: AWGroupies: Weekly AWG meeting (group members only - IM Saijanai Kuhn for invite)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/155/129/23 (Started 5 minutes ago)
[9:35] Asterion Coen: that and some weird rollback about prims
[9:35] Dirk Talamasca: Hmmmm
[9:35] Asterion Coen: today, i saw some part of a mall im building desapeared
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: OMG, Latha's eating a whole plate of hamburgers
[9:36] Latha Serevi: Asterion comes up with the greatest treats whenever I see him.
[9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: so Zha said that she's got an Agent DOmain working, "flows" wise.
[9:36] Asterion Coen: yes, it's good for its hair :)
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[9:37] Dirk Talamasca: You may want to consider joining Battery Street Irregulars to help us test the new viewers. Asterion
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zha probably doesn't want to show, as he expects a round of "Where's the AD?" :-)
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Aimee :-)
[9:38] Aimee Trescothick: hey
[9:38] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[9:38] Asterion Coen: hehe dirk, im kind of allergic to the new stuffs (especialy SL client ones) and you want me to use some alpha interfaces ? :)
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: everyone is probably watching the inaguration still. Its over at the end of this song so
[9:39] Asterion Coen: hello aimee :)
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: its a big moment for America and, I think the rest of the world as well
[9:39] Asterion Coen: (let's hope)
[9:39] Aimee Trescothick: what, haven't they heard of multitasking? :D
[9:40] Teravus Ousley: local politics.. insensitve clod :D
[9:40] Dirk Talamasca: Of course the idea is to resolve your issues before it becomes standard release
[9:40] Aimee Trescothick: first day and the president's having a day off already, should be sat there with his laptop working
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: The French had a good idea with the guillotine for inadequate heads of state
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: aimee he's heading straight back to the White House for an emergency economic meeting according to the news
[9:41] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: he's done a good PR job. He and Biden did house painting and drywall hanging yesterday
[9:42] Asterion Coen: dirk, i got a friend, allergic too sl clients who is now in the testing group. since he is in it, he is happy to discover bugs! (i dont wanna become as crasy as him) :)
[9:42] Dirk Talamasca: He is not running on your setup though
[9:42] Asterion Coen: im mostly happy when i dont discover any
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Well it'll certainly help the world's perception of the US a lot. It's been a kind of throwback to the medieval ages with Bush in, the world was just aghast.
[9:43] Tara5 Oh: the facebook CNN integration is cool (normally I never get anything out of facebook it seems)
[9:43] Asterion Coen: dirk that's a fact. he got a new puter, i still got an old one im waiting it fall in dust :)
[9:44] Dirk Talamasca: Well maybe that is the problem LOL
[9:44] Asterion Coen: not sure my system will interrest the debugers :)
[9:44] Aimee Trescothick: heh, about all I use facebook for these days is playing scrabble lol
[9:44] Asterion Coen: a program should work as well with a 386 !
[9:44] Tara5 Oh: i had to give scrabble up hehe
[9:45] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Mentors Only)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/SLVEC/190/144/22 (Starts in 15 minutes)
[9:45] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Alternative Location)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/181/99/30 (Starts in 15 minutes)
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, biggest problem with BUsh is that he's never been part of the less-than-elite
[9:45] Aimee Trescothick: scored 98 with one word lastnight :D
[9:45] Dirk Talamasca: I doubt that we should really expect 3D applications to adhere to 286 standards. Onward and upward
[9:45] Dirk Talamasca: 386*
[9:46] Asterion Coen: :)
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: er, no, Bush's main problem was a level of sentience and morality that makes a mushroom look like Eistein and Mother Teresa.
[9:47] Aimee Trescothick: I've never quite worked out where he would have been more or less dangerous with a few braincells
[9:47] Asterion Coen: that's about those cpu u got in most of space stuffs (and probly lot of other actual technologies) :) (ok, not for 3d stuffs thought)
[9:47] Morgaine Dinova: More
[9:47] Morgaine Dinova: Hitler was allegedly extremely bright. Bright != good
[9:47] Aimee Trescothick: true
[9:48] Asterion Coen: but you will notice that a a machine b4 the 586 never have material issues (or barely) :)
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: Dark != good either
[9:48] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed
[9:48] Aimee Trescothick: tiz if you're a mushroom
[9:48] Morgaine Dinova: And Female != good either .... as we discovered with Maggie Thatcher
[9:48] Asterion Coen: today, better is to have 36 backup everywhere to be "almost" sure you wont loose datas
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Basically, good == good, and nothing else :P
[9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Absolutely
[9:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Mentors Only)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/SLVEC/190/144/22 (Starts in 10 minutes)
[9:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Alternative Location)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/181/99/30 (Starts in 10 minutes)
[9:50] Asterion Coen: you also got the diplomatic "good" that could have another interpretation :)
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah. But "good" is one of those "I know it when I see it" things :-)
[9:50] Dirk Talamasca: You also have good as in..... good and stupid
[9:51] Asterion Coen: hehe
[9:51] Dirk Talamasca: lol
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: so, looks like we're on our own today... anyone have any old/new/ongoing business?
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Did everyone else pick up on Philip's statement at Metanomics yesterday? Effectively, "Teen and Adult grids will be merged" (as a clear intent)
[9:53] Dirk Talamasca: So, does anyone else feel that Philip was rather protective of M yesterday at Metanomics. Beyers asked nothing about M but Philip brought him up many times touting his work as stellar and fabulous even though we haven't seen squat from him.
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: in one sense, the only way they can go. Teen grid doesn't do enough to attract teens
[9:53] Asterion Coen: i've missed phillipe stuffs yesterday
[9:53] Asterion Coen: rl stuffs
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: its online now
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, Philip was verging on PR and deceit yesterday about various things, including M and the state of things and the "no need to invest in anything major" thing.
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Pretty shabby interview,
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: well, we don't know what they have already invested in
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: But the statement about Teen grid was informative.
[9:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Mentors Only)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/SLVEC/190/144/22 (Starts in 5 minutes)
[9:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Alternative Location)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/181/99/30 (Starts in 5 minutes)
[9:55] Dirk Talamasca: Agreed.. Much turmoil in Concierge chat regarding that
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I mean, if they've already invested in everything that you think they should (that they can), there's no need to do MORE investing
[9:55] Asterion Coen: and did he told something about the future or SL, or some new strategy, or marketing plan, or... ?
[9:55] Dirk Talamasca: But honestly, anyone that doesn't think that there aren't tons of teens here already is fooling themselves
[9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Dirk, yeah, but the educational focus has been on the teen grid which is pretty much a ghetto
[9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha online
[9:57] Asterion Coen: to be honest, the first thing that will try to do a teen, is to go on no teen areas
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Sai, as far as we know they haven't invested anything at all in several key areas of scalability, and that's a mammoth project that would require investment.
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: I agree that a Teen grid is not sustainable. But the ramifications on the "adult" grid are going to be dire. Utterly dire.
[9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: THat might be, Morgaine, but we don't know all that they are doing.THey ahve this "remain profitable" mandate right now it seems
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: which actually makes sense given how tight credit is
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey ZHa
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: No no, the credit squeeze is excellent --- people are shedding techie jobs, so now is the time for LL to recruit more devs
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zha!
[9:58] Dirk Talamasca: Right Saij, you have to deal with that reality to make the virtual reality happen
[9:59] Asterion Coen: teen grid will work in // with the adult one, or it will be some sim status ?
[10:00] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Mentors Only)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/SLVEC/190/144/22 (Starts now)
[10:00] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Alternative Location)
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[10:00] Dirk Talamasca: Asterion it would seem that a move towards verification is just going to have to take place even though it is strongly contested
[10:00] Dirk Talamasca: And yes, there are already estate and parcel tools to deal with verification
[10:01] Asterion Coen: a 77 grid got the advantage to make some additional incomes to studio prods :)
[10:01] Asterion Coen:
[10:01] Asterion Coen: 77=//
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: hands Zha a keepalive token
[10:01] Teravus Ousley: 4 8 15 16 23 42
[10:01] Asterion Coen: and the inconveniant for corporations to invest in both grids :)
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: whoops, wrong computer.
[10:02] Zha Ewry: Wow, SL is totaly not behaving at the moment
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, it's been a bad several days
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: I've even been staying away from live music events ... last one I went to we couldn't even pay the musician tips, as the tip jar couldn't find its owner.
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: ROFL
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: So Obama is already doing signings.
[10:04] Asterion Coen: LOO
[10:04] Asterion Coen: L
[10:04] Zha Ewry: OK
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I am NOT going to sit down this time
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: hands Zha two keepalive tokens ... oh fsck, take the whole bag ;-)
[10:04] Asterion Coen: i know know why my tip jars r less efficient than usualy !
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I think that the 800 people trying to stream CNN may be my issue
[10:05] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Mentors Only)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/SLVEC/190/144/22 (Started 5 minutes ago)
[10:05] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 10:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering (Alternative Location)
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[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Streams don't go through LL though
[10:05] Zha Ewry: No, but that' 800 people on my WAN
[10:05] Mirt Tenk: but on your network w/SL traffic
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: but they do through IBM's WAN
[10:05] Asterion Coen: :)
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hahahaha
[10:05] Mirt Tenk: prolly the case across US
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Seriously, probably every third machine in our building is sucking on streaming video
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: Use multicast
[10:06] Zha Ewry: shrugs
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Easierr to say then deploy
[10:06] Dirk Talamasca: [1]
[10:06] Zha Ewry: There we go
[10:06] Zha Ewry: So...
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: So... did anyone add to the agenda?
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Newp
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: not that I saw. I think we're not used to them yet
[10:07] Zha Ewry: I've been sort of heads downin code this week
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Zha++
[10:08] Morgaine Dinova: We need that soon ... any chance of early release?
[10:08] Zha Ewry: I will say that the basics of an Agent Domain aren't very big
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: like I said, headers adie, you can do it in LSL
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: aside*
[10:08] Zha Ewry: I'm working with the powers that be, on exactly when we'll push a snapshot out
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: has logged in via a prim on Aditi
[10:09] Zha Ewry: I'm taking my time, to actually do persitence somewhat right
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: got LSL code for it on the wiki? That could stimulate AD development! (Including me)
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: well, doing it right is something else
[10:09] Zha Ewry: This is pure C# as a service under opensim
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Which makes it quite compact
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Ew ... oh no!
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: I prefer standalone to compact
[10:10] Teravus Ousley: progressive textures?
[10:10] Zha Ewry: It builds on the basic openSim services code, which is pretty straightforward
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine I couldn't get to the SL AD or login sim via a secondlifecom sim so I just hand-pasted the URL into the LSL and directed the login to go to the prim's url
[10:11] Zha Ewry: and, the core stuff, which is the LLSD parsing, and formatting uses JH's LLSD stuff from there
[10:11] Zha Ewry: You could pull it out, and make it standalone
[10:11] Zha Ewry: but then you get to redo
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Logging
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Http handling
[10:11] Zha Ewry: the code for SSL that Teravus got into the OpenSim base
[10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: There's a python MIT module for LLSD parsing in the client code
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Its totally seperate from needing *any* openSim stuff up other than it
[10:12] Zha Ewry: (Open sim being nicely decomposed that way)
[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: and Locklain adapted my regex parser to parse the mesage templates
[10:12] Asterion Coen: (we lost latha)
[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: too many hamburgers
[10:13] Asterion Coen: probably
[10:13] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, OK! I thought you meant Opensim had to be running. Cool :-)
[10:13] Dirk Talamasca: Dogs do tend to wander off
[10:13] Zha Ewry: No no
[10:13] Zha Ewry: The basic structure of the OpenSi services
[10:13] Zha Ewry: is they are each standalone processes
[10:13] Teravus Ousley: Since there's no ajenda.. one news item.. is, as of Monday, we have progressive openjpeg texture sending working.
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
[10:13] Dirk Talamasca: ohhh
[10:13] Zha Ewry: for 90% of the testing, I'm running the AD service and a region for testing, nothing else
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Oooh. Very nice
[10:14] Asterion Coen: (oh, but we got another pet there!)
[10:14] Zha Ewry: How does that interat with dynamic jpg texture pusing?
[10:14] Teravus Ousley: with a magical priority queue.. that you can visualize like a rotating ladder.
[10:15] Teravus Ousley: .. it depends on how large the server is.
[10:15] Teravus Ousley: ... rather image
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: I love magical code ;-)
[10:15] Teravus Ousley: some images 1024x1024 that are generated take 2000ms to decode. (most take under 250ms)
[10:16] Zha Ewry: 1/4 a seconf a texture is pretty painful, but that's hardly the sim's fault
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Has anyone put up a pair of identical complex visually dense builds on an OpenSim and on an LLi island anf compared the load times?
[10:17] Teravus Ousley: for debug purposes right now it prints the decode time on the console.
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: That's kind of mind-boggling, a decode of that length.
[10:18] Teravus Ousley: well, Wright Plaza now has 1128 distinct textures..
[10:18] Zha Ewry: restriping images is computationally heavy
[10:18] Asterion Coen: a system could regroup all textures, transforme it into 1 file
[10:18] Asterion Coen: then save the coordonates
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah but we're talking 1024x1024 ... even at O(N^2) that should be a ms at GHz speeds
[10:19] Zha Ewry: well, as I'm sure the code is out there on trunk, you can profile it and fix it
[10:19] Teravus Ousley: heh, petition openjpeg
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: I think I'd propose using more than 1 texture standard instead, and typed texture objects.
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: might be swomething as simple as cache thrashing due to bad fit with the size of the cache lines and the image size
[10:20] Teravus Ousley: It's a huge difference
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, could be a bug
[10:21] Teravus Ousley: Running the progressive texture pathway is a huge difference.
[10:21] Teravus Ousley: less grey
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Hrmm. I bet that the OpenJpg code hasn't been bashed by the OpenSim/SL community on encoding vs decoding
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: First pass of Doom on a powerpc was 100x as slow as on a pentium due to that
[10:21] Zha Ewry: So you now get the LL blury but sooner experience?
[10:22] Teravus Ousley: right.. with more detail being determiend by number of pixels of real estate
[10:22] Zha Ewry: (The other question would be if it handles the client better, since one thing that OpenSim and the client snargle over is the retry path)
[10:22] Dirk Talamasca: Actually many are complaining of the bluury and stays blurry experience
[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Does the baked av texture have LOD too?
[10:22] Zha Ewry: on LL?
[10:22] Zha Ewry: or on OpenSim?
[10:22] Dirk Talamasca: Yes
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Heh.
[10:23] Dirk Talamasca: on LL
[10:23] Zha Ewry: The one I want to go away is the almost fully loaded, reblured loop
[10:23] Teravus Ousley: technically it does.. but it's one of those not fully understood in OpenSim
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: JH's jix for that is already merged, I think
[10:23] Dirk Talamasca: Right, the viewer I am running now addresses that issue
[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, cool Dirk!
[10:24] Teravus Ousley: hah, we did get the texture blur, load, reblurred loop :D
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Nothing like proving compatability
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Even when you don't want it
[10:24] Teravus Ousley: well, it doesn't happen too often.
[10:24] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:24] Dirk Talamasca: I haven't checked the JIRA in a day or 2 but I was unable to reproduce given the instructions
[10:24] Zha Ewry: That's a good thing
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: I must get Jacek to put that patch into Imprudence, it's so annoying
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: JH deserves a medal
[10:25] Zha Ewry: Getting that flattened would be a huge win
[10:25] Asterion Coen: :)
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: the rotating priority is a bit interesting.
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: the client continues to request specific prorities..
[10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Can you describe it further pls Teras?
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: meanwhile on the server, tasks are constantly being lowered in priority to allow the next texture to bubble up.
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: the client's set piority takes effect immediately.. then after we're done sending a couple packets, the server will lower the priority of the task and move on to sending the next image.
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Oh, the deeper into the texture you gte?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: That's cute, presumably you get the first level of each texture out quickly that way, if you get a full layer of the progressive encoding
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: .. eventually, the client will re-request the image at a high priority, moving it up to the top of the ladder again.
[10:29] Zha Ewry: Do you restart then, or just bump the stream you have?
[10:29] Dirk Talamasca: When it happens it doesn't really looked blurred in the manner we are accustomed to but rather it looks pixellated like Abraham Lincoln in Dalivision
[10:29] Zha Ewry: (And do you change priroity with any awareness of the LOD layers?
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: just bump the stream. restarting would send the whole stream over.
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: Hmmm, so if new people keep arriving, or if objects change their textures a bit regularly, then any particular download may never complete fully?
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: .. and yes.
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: if we're done sending the layer requested, priority drops
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: Priorities need to rise in proportion to length of time in queue
[10:29] Zha Ewry: Very ncie
[10:30] Zha Ewry: and the pixilation, I'll bet is different because you're using a different encoding in openjpg
[10:30] Teravus Ousley: actually, it's not
[10:30] Zha Ewry: No?
[10:30] Teravus Ousley: the byte data is in order of layers
[10:30] Teravus Ousley: .. so to send a specific layer.. it's 0-----Layer End Byte Offset
[10:31] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:31] Zha Ewry: right, but the way you encode the layers, is somewhat arbitrary
[10:31] Teravus Ousley: so, the only thing that we use openjpeg for is figuring out where those layers are.
[10:31] Zha Ewry: dregdes up old progressive jpg spec memories and hits a cache miss
[10:32] Teravus Ousley: it's a stream :D
[10:32] Teravus Ousley: .. the more bytes you send, the better quality it becomes until you've sent the last byte.. in which.. it's full quality.
[10:32] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I seem to recall, tho, this is dusty memory
[10:33] Zha Ewry: that you can encode the lesser detail lots of ways, as long as you meet the rules, but it's been ages, and i'm not sure I'm not crossing graphics specs
[10:33] Zha Ewry: The joy of standards is there are so *many* to chose from
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: But you need to increase the priority the longer a download task is in the queue, otherwise you tend towards having an infinity of almost completed jobs in the queue, which is a recipe for memory exhaustion, doesn't scale with load.
[10:34] Zha Ewry: In the end you've the same total amount of bits to move
[10:35] Zha Ewry: and, on this scale, memory is not terribly expensive
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: Morgaine, the issue that I've seen when working on it.. is the client requests specific images to be at the top consistantly.
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Based on it's opinion of the client's view frustrum, one assumes
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: .. so in order to keep the world from being grey.. you have to move more items to the top
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: It's not the same, Zha, because if you can't bring tasks to closure, you are not working on a system with a stable load, but a continually increasing load.
[10:35] Zha Ewry: even big textures aren't huge
[10:36] Zha Ewry: I'm not 100% sure that's true Morgaine. The client is going to ask for several megabytes of textures...
[10:37] Zha Ewry: All the requests flow up prety quickly
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Just like a TCP server under SYN attack ... eventually you run out of resources.
[10:37] Teravus Ousley: the images at the top tend to be higher quality images also.. which leads, of course, to spending more time sending images, meanwhile the experience of the user is .. 'the world is grey'
[10:37] Zha Ewry: Higher quality because they are int he higher level of detail set?
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: the client uses 5-0 with regards to setting the discard level it wants
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah Tera, that's true ... but you're thinking about 1-av performance ... I'm talking about steady-state performance under high workloads, lot of avs.
[10:38] Mirt Tenk: hi Infinity
[10:38] Infinity Linden: hola
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Infi!
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: well, We'll see this afternoon.
[10:38] Zha Ewry: Hey Infinity
[10:38] Asterion Coen: guess who just come :)
[10:38] Asterion Coen: and for one time after the breakfast :)
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Are you present officially this time? /me giggles
[10:38] Infinity Linden: hmm... surprised some of my fellow statesies are here
[10:39] Infinity Linden: hell... i'm never anywhere officially
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Statesies?
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[10:39] Zha Ewry: CNN is streaming on the third machine
[10:39] Infinity Linden: Citizens of the US
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: aj
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: ah*
[10:39] Asterion Coen: too bad, im not us citizen :)
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: historical moments are a dime a dozen. Can't miss my Groupies fix
[10:39] Infinity Linden: lol
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Just boot Bush out, job done. :-)
[10:40] Saijanai Kuhn: if only
[10:40] Infinity Linden: now now... he may be a bastard, but he's OUR bastard, so i'll have none of that, thank you
[10:40] Saijanai Kuhn: next 8 years will primarily be cleanup of hte last 8 years
[10:40] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha
[10:40] Infinity Linden: so
[10:40] Infinity Linden: uh
[10:40] Infinity Linden: trying to move things away from a political discussion
[10:40] Morgaine Dinova: You started it :P
[10:40] Infinity Linden: how bout that $DIET{Y|IES}
[10:40] Zha Ewry: we're down the fascinaing if not terribly interop related progressive encoding rathole
[10:41] Teravus Ousley: .. :D I was talking about image discard level.. priorityqueues of image tasks and progressive textures
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Possibly Proper COding Standard
[10:41] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, interesting thing Tera is explaining to us
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I feel a parody coming on
[10:41] Infinity Linden: i've been round and round with some other Lindens
[10:41] Infinity Linden: and
[10:41] Infinity Linden: the thing i can say is
[10:41] Infinity Linden: a. there's probably more rationality in our decisions than would be apparent
[10:41] Infinity Linden: and
[10:42] Infinity Linden: b. it would be great if we could do some experiments
[10:42] Asterion Coen: /)
[10:42] Mirt Tenk: we = ?
[10:42] Asterion Coen: it will be fun :)
[10:42] Infinity Linden: we being anyone who wanted to experiment with it
[10:42] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Jeeze Fox News is speculating that Barak's fumbled Oath of Office may end up being challenged in court
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: Well "we" doesn't work too well when only you have visibility of the code your side. But experiments with Opensim are better.
[10:43] Asterion Coen: infinity you should ask Dirk ;)
[10:43] Infinity Linden: right... we is them what want to write, test and deploy code
[10:43] Teravus Ousley: so. given that the client normally requests higher quality textures with a higher priority.. it means the server spends more time sending that one high quality texture over others.. which leads to a grey world. The answer, of course, is spreading the load... moving items down in the queue to make room for lower priority items and when the client wants to set the priority back to a high level, it can, and does, by resending the requested priority.
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: How would/will a textgure CAP change this/
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: texture*
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: I agree ... except for the fact that your world will always be slightly grey still, since you have no mechanism for bringing any given download to completion.
[10:45] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 15 minutes)
[10:45] Infinity Linden: right... which is why i would love to see a tunable system... so we could investigate what cache managemetn pproaches are "better" for different scenarios
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: Each texture over HTTP would be a different request. There would be no state.
[10:45] Infinity Linden: @Sai.. one would hope that texture downloads would be improved if done over HTTP
[10:45] Zha Ewry: If you do get with progressive ranges, you do even better
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: .. currently the image manager has state on what the last packet sent to the client is.
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: seems that you could send low piroity textures via UDP for now and the high priority ones via http
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Well we can certainly poke pure TCP transport into a viewer fork, if that deserves testing.
[10:46] Zha Ewry: That doesn't change your total through put tho, and a second code path to maintani
[10:46] Infinity Linden: it will be a cold day in hell when, after moving to TCP for image download, we move any part of it back to UDP
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: "for now"
[10:46] Teravus Ousley: :D
[10:46] Infinity Linden: lol
[10:47] Zha Ewry: and, the nice thing about http gets
[10:47] Zha Ewry: is that done right, when you have part of a texture
[10:47] Zha Ewry: you can reuest the next part as a byet range
[10:47] Infinity Linden: right.. the world changes rapidly... and someone once pointed out that in Dante's inferno, hell was actually frozen when you got close to the middle
[10:47] Zha Ewry: so you don' resend
[10:48] Zha Ewry: (The nice thing about the client holding the only state is that it knowsh ow much it got, when it closed a request out and resent
[10:48] Infinity Linden: right... the server holding state about how much of a texture it's downloaded and to whom is the path to madness
[10:49] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:49] Zha Ewry: and.. for "public" textures, which might be on a http cap, ou could even imagine edge caching working properly
[10:49] Infinity Linden: but... i wonder about sending a bazillion TCP connect requests.. (assuming you have a bazillion textures)
[10:49] Teravus Ousley: well, the priority tweaking in openSimulator isn't 100% done. I've gotten it to a point where it works, all textures get download fully and there's very little time as 'grey'
[10:49] Zha Ewry: That is I think a client side throteling issue, isn't it?
[10:49] Zha Ewry: Which is pretty sweet, Teravus
[10:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 10 minutes)
[10:50] Teravus Ousley: Technically, the priorityqueue still works somewhat if you don't decode the openjpeg layer boundaries.. but it's much less effective.
[10:50] Infinity Linden: @Zha... pretty much, though i imagine if you pop onto a sim and ask for 10 Mb of texture data, the transfer won't be instantaneous
[10:50] Tara5 Oh: before everyone runs over to zero's everyone is wondering when OGP and hypergrid will come together hehe
[10:51] Zha Ewry: OK, in a mixed media bizzarness.. They are streaming the stream with the facebook wrapper around it, in the video stream on CNN while the facebook stream is on the outside
[10:51] Infinity Linden: @Tara5... off the record?
[10:51] Tara5 Oh: yes
[10:51] Teravus Ousley: .. which is why both the priorityqueue and the progressive texture patch got added together.
[10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Me shuts down
[10:51] Tara5 Oh: Yes
[10:51] Infinity Linden: probably never unless there's a lot of demand.
[10:51] Infinity Linden: modulo the world changing in the next 6 months
[10:51] Infinity Linden: so
[10:52] Infinity Linden: the polite way to put it is... it's not completely outside the realm of possibility
[10:52] Zha Ewry: I think it will happen more on the OpenSi side
[10:52] Infinity Linden: but we're still focusing on OGP at the moment
[10:52] Zha Ewry: The two approaches are close to orthogonal
[10:52] Infinity Linden: right
[10:52] Tara5 Oh: yes I understand it approaches the problem from the other end
[10:52] Zha Ewry: You can (and people have built) both in the same region
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: What's the next step in OGP?
[10:53] Tara5 Oh: but it seem a meeting in the middle is what everyone wants hehe
[10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: we back on the record?
[10:53] Infinity Linden: sure
[10:53] Zha Ewry: I think we need to have Linden publish aroadmap and then disucss it
[10:53] Tara5 Oh: yes Saijani holds the key to the record!!!
[10:53] Infinity Linden: sadly... the next step for OGP is probably "wait for our announcement at the end of the month."
[10:53] Infinity Linden: well
[10:53] Tara5 Oh: that would be a good idea zha!!
[10:53] Infinity Linden: that's the "official" word
[10:53] Zha Ewry: Officialyl we are politely waiting on Linden to pubish the roadma
[10:53] Tara5 Oh: maybe some nudging
[10:53] Infinity Linden: but in terms of what needs to be done next? how bout Group IM?
[10:54] Morgaine Dinova: That's OK, only a week to go for end of month or so. And Zha has hands full giving us an AD anyway
[10:54] Zha Ewry: And X.509 pain
[10:54] Tara5 Oh: i assume you all saw Hamlets Ostatic blog??
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: is officially confused. on the record, off, official, non-official.
[10:54] Infinity Linden: right...
[10:54] Tara5 Oh: [2]
[10:54] Tara5 Oh: people keep pinging me with unanswerable questions hehe I am patient but others are not so
[10:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 5 minutes)
[10:55] Asterion Coen: tara5 u assume bad :) what is that hamlets stuffs ? :)
[10:55] Infinity Linden: we need to a. canonize a few modifications to LLSD/LLIDL, b. work out how trust works in more detail, c. work out how the event queue is gonna work and d. discuss how we're gonna clothe nekkid UUIDs
[10:55] Tara5 Oh: just put in the link
[10:55] Zha Ewry: thinks for a moment
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I see gorup ID as the testcase for a lot of stuff in the AD
[10:55] Tara5 Oh: that circulates quite widely so the time for a road map would be now!
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: no need to get it perfect at first
[10:55] Asterion Coen: just the link name gimme headhake :) but let's click on it :)
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM*
[10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Everyone saw th3 linked memo right?
[10:56] Zha Ewry: At some point actually get workigng ADs which share trust deployed
[10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Hmmmm ... if OGP progress is related to announcement at end of month, that's darn worrying. After all, the only change to "full ahead interop" can be "less than full ahead interop".
[10:56] Infinity Linden: @Tara5... i agree... i would like to publish a roadmap now, but it's above my eschelon and my execs have asked us to hold off talking about anything official 'til the end of the month
[10:57] Zha Ewry: I think Morgaine, it's more a matter of path through the swamps
[10:57] Dirk Talamasca: We saw it but we don't speak of it so don't ask
[10:57] Zha Ewry: We have to traverse a bunch of them..
[10:57] Tara5 Oh: yes make sure the achelons about see things like the Ostatic blog though!
[10:57] Zha Ewry: Nobody would ever leak a memo, or replublish it
[10:57] Infinity Linden: um. you call the last four months "full ahead interop" ???
[10:57] Morgaine Dinova: OK, might be prioritization.
[10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: as I see it, we can play with lots of levels of trust on non-LL sims and grids. If someone is willing to work with hypergrid, they should be willing to work with an Lsl Prim AD
[10:58] Zha Ewry: Well, one reason I'm doing the AD is so we can play with that in parallel
[10:58] Infinity Linden: yay!
[10:58] Infinity Linden: and it doesn't import ZCA!
[10:58] Morgaine Dinova: No Infi, last 4 months has been "Interop totally stopped while Zero does some wierd navel gazing" :-))))
[10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: sure. Can have levels and models of trust and interrelations thereof
[10:58] Teravus Ousley: and it doesn't import skynet?
[10:59] Zha Ewry: No ZCA
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: mournes the loss of ZCA
[10:59] Infinity Linden: @Morgaine.. yes... which is why we're going to announce something like 'Zero has finished navel gazing and here is what we're going to do in the next year."
[10:59] Zha Ewry: Just uses the OpenSim servcie framwork
[10:59] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity++ :-))
[10:59] Infinity Linden: dances on the grave of ZCA
[10:59] Infinity Linden: well
[10:59] Infinity Linden: k
[10:59] Tara5 Oh: I hope sai is not posting this to the wiki
[10:59] Zha Ewry: Seriously, the C# code tends to be pretty coherent
[11:00] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts now)
[11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Which part of this is official/non-official...
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, might be better to clean it up, we don't want anyone in trouble over this chat.
[11:00] Infinity Linden: i think i'm on record as opposing the inclusion of ZCA for the sole purpous of adding the factory design pattern
[11:00] Teravus Ousley: I'm a C# fan myself.. but .. i'm probably biased.
[11:01] Infinity Linden: i shouldn't mention that i've been reading haskell and erlang books lately
[11:01] Asterion Coen: (with all those C languages, they soon will enlarge the ascii table to find a sign to add behing that letter)
[11:01] Asterion Coen: g=d
[11:01] Infinity Linden: and on April 1st, i'm going to announce we're deploying a new scripting interface that uses LOGO
[11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity --- you're making my faith return :-))))
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: yay
[11:01] Infinity Linden: kk
[11:01] Infinity Linden: gotta run
[11:01] Aimee Trescothick: bring back Miranda I say
[11:01] Zha Ewry: OSD rezResponse = null;
try
{
rezResponse = OSDParser.DeserializeLLSDXml(rez_avatar_reply);
responseMap = (OSDMap)rezResponse;
}
catch (Exception ex)
{
m_log.InfoFormat("[OGP]: exception on parse of rez reply {0}", ex.Message);]
responseMap["connect"] OSD.FromBoolean(false); undefined:
return responseMap;
}
} // end of "get the response nesting block"
[11:01] Infinity Linden: i'm being called to a meeting
[11:02] Asterion Coen: have fun infinity :)
[11:02] Teravus Ousley: I've been debating making 'OpenSimulator Tester' appear over people's heads on April 1st
[11:02] Asterion Coen: dont forget the croissants
[11:02] Tara5 Oh: byeee!
[11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Miranda rocked too Aimee! And Sugar
[11:02] Mirt Tenk: goodbye
[11:02] Dirk Talamasca: Is it ever good to make announcements on April Fool's Day?
[11:02] Morgaine Dinova: We have a meeting too, Andrew
[11:02] Mirt Tenk: um, no
[11:02] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[11:02] Zha Ewry: No
[11:02] Aimee Trescothick: heh, I was taught by David Turner at uni so got a serious dosage of Miranda lol
[11:03] Zha Ewry: and.. on that note.. I am going to drop fof and dive into code.
[11:03] Teravus Ousley: must go myself, take care
[11:03] Zha Ewry: I'll see everyone a Zero's OH in a bit
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Very cool Aimee, David was one of the active researchers when I was doing functional languages too, although I was focussed on concurrency :-)
[11:03] Aimee Trescothick: along with major injections of Occam
[11:03] Dirk Talamasca: Right.. I am glad everyone is off to the inauguration so I can actually attend some meetings today
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, exactly, I was heavily into the CSP/Occam side of things as well
[11:04] Aimee Trescothick: :) I have to run my dinner is shouting for me lol
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Wonder where Tony Hoare is now
[11:04] Aimee Trescothick: waves
[11:04] Dirk Talamasca: Bye Aimeeeee
[11:04] Mirt Tenk: tc, goodbye
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: See ya Aimee!
[11:04] Asterion Coen: have fun :)

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20

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