Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 10th, 2012 Meeting

15:01	Geenz Spad	welcome everyone to today's meeting!
	Keli Kyrie	Hello everyone. :)
	Asha	Hi Keli
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Geenz, your chair seems hungry
	Geenz Spad	we're going to be taking a slightly different approach to today's meeting, wherein the first 15 minutes will be dedicated to JIRA discussion
	Elie Spot	wow that stage is like 8 miles away from the commoners
15:02	Geenz Spad	I blame Selkit :p
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	:3
	Asha	lol
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Always blame the mustelid. :c
	Braydon Randt	i can still hit um with my shoe
	Geenz Spad	we'll move the chairs up on the next one
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Hey! I'm not Dubya or Saddam. No shoes! D:
	Geenz Spad	so anyways, anyone have any JIRAs related to content creation up?
	Yuzuru	Hello Nalates.
	Nal	Hey Yuz
	Asha	Heya Nal
	Nal	Asha :)
	Martin RJ	hi all
15:03	Siddean Munro	I have a really really really old one that will never get fixed! :)
	tauber Paola von Tauber	well i have one but it's not on the agenda: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27189
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I have a JIRA from 2007 still alive, Siddean. :C
		Completely not content-related, however.
	Geenz Spad	it doesn't have to be on the agenda, so long as it's relating to content creation
	Keli Kyrie	There is also this Jira https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29210
	Geenz Spad	cloth simulation was actually briefly touched on at one of the open-dev meetings a while back
	tauber Paola von Tauber	it's about cloth simulation :D
15:05	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I think sometime before next meeting, I need to re-engineer this build. Was made for SL9B. :P
15:06	Geenz Spad	I can bring up Keli's JIRA at the next open-dev; not sure if Oz or one of the open source developers know about that one
		I'll keep that one in mind
	Keli Kyrie	Oz does I have talked to him about that one
	Geenz Spad	ah
	Martin RJ	Geenz we have talked with Oz about it at the last meeting
15:07		he said it was the bug that blocked the dev-branch from going to beta
	Geenz Spad	it's a shame I overslept then :P
		right
	Martin RJ	but since the beta is out, they probably fixed it.
	Geenz Spad	can anyone confirm this one in the beta?
15:08	Keli Kyrie	There was a new Beta released on July 8... I don't know if it is in that one but before July it was
	Nal	We need a JIRA helper here...
	Martin RJ	I assume it's fixed in Second Life 3.3.4 (261355)
	Geenz Spad	I'm going to ask Oz about that
15:09	Siddean Munro	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2103
	Koli Melune	Strange, doesn't repro in 3.3.5.
	Martin RJ	but I didn't have a chance to test it myself
	Geenz Spad	it may have been fixed, but if not, bring it up at the next open dev
		or even if it is, bring it up anyways :)
15:10	Keli Kyrie	Cool :)
	Geenz Spad	SH-2103 -- looks like a problem with the avatar mesh's UVs
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Inclined to agree with Geenz, but I'd have to poke at the models themselves.
		UV overflow, maybe.
15:11	Geenz Spad	keep the JIRA's coming everyone
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Nasty one to try and fix, without breaking a heap of legacy content. Hate to say it, but the base SL avatar mesh is showing its age a bit.
	Maxwell Graf	The devil you say!
	Siddean Munro	I don't believe it's anything more than just changing some of the alphas
	Geenz Spad	hm
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Not quite that simple.
	Geenz Spad	will need to look into that one a bit further
15:12	Vivi	It should be possible to update the avatar whilst retaining legacy UV mapping for legacy content? Or offer a switch to allow "use legacy model"
	Geenz Spad	from what I'm told, touching the existing avatar mesh is a bit of a no-no for now
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	That's one possible solution; The usual Linden policy of "Does it break legacy" probably applies in all cases.
	Vivi	and that gap is the alpha layers anyway, it's not the avatar model, the gap isn't there on the jacket layer
15:13	Geenz Spad	I believe they're working on a few things behind the scenes to make it possible in the future htough
		and if it's the alpha layers, then we can probably put together a fix
	Elie Spot	Improvement can be made without breaking content, its most likely
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Yup.
	Elie Spot	^ what vivienne said
15:14	Siddean Munro	There are a bunch of textures under characters in the SL viewer, Shirt_bottom_alpha is the one with the issue
	Geenz Spad	that helps
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Insufficient seam allowance made, likely.
	Geenz Spad	have you tried modifying it?
	Vivi	I've tried modifiying that to resolve the issue myself but replacing the texture causes a client crash, would have to be in source and compiled with the fix as the target file, size mismatch or something
	Siddean Munro	I can't remember, it was 2007 :p
15:15	Geenz Spad	...huh
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	The years do blur a bit, don't they. ;)
	Geenz Spad	well that's interesting
	April Looming	Is there any plan to add more bones to support the new deformer?
	Allegory Malaprop	there is something special in the way they've cmopressed the image
	Geenz Spad	I don't have any information on that, sorry April
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	To my knowledge, April, adding new bones to the existing avatar mesh is easier said than done.
15:16	Geenz Spad	shall we get in another JIRA before moving on?
15:17	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Future changes may alleviate that, but going with the mesh as it is, altering the skeleton will break legacy content in several areas.
	dahlia1337 resident	adding bones shouldnt break existing content that dont reference them
	Elie Spot	adding bones wouldnt break anything
		^
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	That one was actually explored back in 2006 or so for us silly furries to have actual tails. :P
15:18	Geenz Spad	alright, if no one else has anything to bring up in terms of JIRAs, we'll continue discussing morph targets from last week
15:19	Siddean Munro	Looks like that's it for Jiras
15:20	Geenz Spad	for those of you who weren't here, a morph target is a special shape that defines how a mesh should "deform" when a certain parameter is increased or decreased
	Siddean Munro	Blender calls them Shape Keys
	Geenz Spad	our discussions from last week mostly looked at how this could work with regards to content creators and its usage in-world
15:21	Maxwell Graf	mesh genitals, finally.
	Asha	lol
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	...*facepalm*
		Trust me, I think SL's already well on that task.
	Braydon Randt	O.o :P
15:22	Geenz Spad	now, to some degree this could be seen as yet another mesh deformer alternative; although it's one that would in theory be more flexible than cBones and Qarl's deformer, and would put content creators in complete control over how a mesh "deforms"
	Asha	Yes, that's old news Max. :p
	Maxwell Graf	with morph targets though, think of the advancements!
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Anyone have two cents on the matter? Operating mechanics? Influence on land impact?
	Siddean Munro	It's hard to speculate on that really without some kind of testing opportunity
15:23	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Hard to get a testing opportunity together without a basic framework.
	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	And really, Land Impact is only really relevant for items to be rezzed, if the morph is to be used for clothing/avatarshapes it won't matter about LI so much
	Geenz Spad	at first at least
	Asha	I just remember that during beta, the Linden at charge at that time said that it would be bad to use morphs. He never went into detail other than it would increase the downloads.
		*in charge
	Nal	Do we have any idea whether it will require changes to the viewer, server, or data to implement?
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I'm of the firm opinion that avatars need to have a quota of some type, but that's another matter entirely.
	Geenz Spad	I've gotten a bit of feedback on that Nal
15:24	Braydon Randt	meaning .. it would increase the work that hadnt been planned for
	Asha	Well...I think he just prefered custom skeletons and didn't understand how morphs are more robust for certain types of deformations,
15:25	Geenz Spad	it would require some changes on the format side of things, and the server would need to be able to recognize the format
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Asha; Morphs do tend to add a bit more to filesize.
	Esprite Xavier	morph targets are kinda intense compared to skeleton animations though isn't it?
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	And bandwidth is a concern factored into land impact.
	Nal	...so that is viewer, server, and data, yes?
	Geenz Spad	work wise?
	Esprite Xavier	work wise, render wise
	Geenz Spad	and yes Nal, though the server work would probably be a bit minimal depending on how this is handled
15:26	Esprite Xavier	more data too
	Asha	Oh, I'm sure it adds to file size.
	Geenz Spad	and work-wise, it shouldn't any more difficult to work with than rigging; infact in theory it should be easier
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	As mentioned, yes, more data. Bandwidth on both CPU throughput and network traffic.
	Geenz Spad	render-wise, it'd actually be faster than Qarl's deformer
15:27	Esprite Xavier	compared to bones though it's not really super efficient, just wondering what kinda limitations there will be for the number of targets, doing an animation with them would be pretty intense right?
	Asha	But, people are already using huge file sizes for things that they don't need to. At least, increased file size for added morphs make sense. Perhaps, they could make a file size limit.
	Nal	Is there anyway to test what the render time differecne would be?
	Geenz Spad	not really
15:28		let me elaborate about how these would work
	Braydon Randt	that goes back to what is acceptable use on AV meshes really doesnt it
15:29	Geenz Spad	work-wise, a morph target is typically a special kind of vertex map (or whatever the equivalent is in your modeling software of choice); you literally are just moving around vertices that makes up the morph target
		there's no need to change your rigging, it should "just work" with the new morph
		it'd effectively allow one to "sculpt" how they think a piece of clothing should deform
15:30	Nal	So, we would build a Morph Target like we do an LoD layer?
	Braydon Randt	or would be have set morph targets .. like we done bones
	Asha	The dae file schematic supports morphs.
	Geenz Spad	rendering-wise, it'd be faster than Qarl's solution, simply because it only adds a single step: interpolating the new vertex positions
15:31	Siddean Munro	I think it'd be a setting on the actual mesh rather than be a separate mesh like LOD meshes are
	Geenz Spad	and sort of Nal, really it varies from modeling package to modeling package
	Allegory Malaprop	on most programs it is, yes. it's more akin to setting an extra animation keyframe on the existing mesh
15:32	Elie Spot	^^ cool!
	Braydon Randt	i have a question .... can we have " zones" that we can apply to vertex groups ..... with that in mind .... any value can be applied to the vertex group for that " zone"
	Nal	It sounds like one would have a mesh that is sculpted into various shapes on various key frames. SO, rather than weight paint, we model, yes/no?
	Geenz Spad	I imagine some kind of "morph group" functionality would be required from the get-go for the sake of making it work with the avatar mesh properly, Braydon
15:33	Siddean Munro	Braydon the way they work is you set a shape key for Belly and then change the model to what it would look like with the belly slider at max
	Geenz Spad	Nal: sort of, have you ever worked with a program called ZBrush?
	Siddean Munro	or morph target, rather than shape key
	Nal	Basically no. I'm mostly Blender
	Geenz Spad	ah, then have you ever used Blender's sculpting functionality?
	Braydon Randt	<blender & zbrush
15:34	Nal	I have... Scult Mode.
	Asha	In Blender, the shape keys (morphs)are seperate from the weights Nal.
	Siddean Munro	And I think weighting is still necessary
	Asha	*separate
	Elie Spot	it makes sense that weighting would still be necessary
	Asha	Yes, you'd still need to weight the item.
	Elie Spot	as morph targets wouldn't affect the movement of your garment just the sizing
	Geenz Spad	well, creating a morph target would be creating a new shape key, and literally "sculpting" how you want it to look when someone sets a parameter to their max, minimum, or what have you
	Asha	But, you only need to weight it once for the most part.
	Esprite Xavier	I guess in some ways morph targets would be easier to understand the alternatives are kinda complicated to create for and or not supported easily
15:35	Asha	Yes, animating a face with bones is like the tenth level of hell to the average person when compared to doing it with morph targets.
	Braydon Randt	shape keys aka morph targets would give a better flexability and the ability to better decide how the garment would "morph" at different values
	Elie Spot	^^
15:36		so lets make it happen xD
	Siddean Munro	So what do we need to get some kind of testing or prototype?
	Allegory Malaprop	on the difficult technical side: your custom morph targets would have to match up with the avatar's morph targets. anywhere you don't have an alpha, that gets just as fussy as weighting for joint movement.
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	As Asha said. Fiddle with fussy muscle and bone groups to get a smile, or sculpt the smile and tween.
	Asha	Yes, but matching the morphs in your 3D program is not difficult.
	Braydon Randt	hense why i said about " zones" ... so when you increase your ass .... your face done gett bigger *lol*
	Geenz Spad	for a prototype, we first need to write a proposal to give to the lab
	Elie Spot	^ allegory - it would be good to have the deformer as an alternative in that case, because it would be a lot of work, but also the flexibility would be amazing
15:37	Siddean Munro	Braydon that's up to the creator of the item :)
	Allegory Malaprop	the deformed matches up to the current morph targets automatically- the avatar mesh is not morph targeted (especially for extreme shapes) especially well, which is why the deformer has the issues it does- matching up to that with cutom morph targets will run into similar issues.
15:38	Siddean Munro	I'm hoping we can have the option of both Alle. :)
	Geenz Spad	now, this proposal needs to include a clear vision as to how it should work with regards to user-facing content, how it should work with regards to the content creators, and how it should work on the lab's side of things
15:39	Asha	It would be nice if you could have access to the morphs through LSL.
	Geenz Spad	the user-facing side I feel is fairly obvious; the user adjusts their shape, and their clothing deforms
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I would imagine any viable proposal at all, Asha, would have to have a plan for how it ties into LSL.
	Elie Spot	is there any way we can incorporate physics into this? i know that was something LL placed a higher priority on
	Geenz Spad	well, I think that depends really
	Elie Spot	*avatar physics
	Geenz Spad	on both Elie and Selkit's comments
	Braydon Randt	so .... clothes cant fit ... but hell .. your boobs will bounce well
15:40	Anouk Spot	hahah [15:40] AshaAsha snorts
	Geenz Spad	we should think about what would be best for a "version one" release
	Toast Bard	haha
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Build a frame to hang the shinies on.
	Braydon Randt	no wonder .... LL priority ... tits and ass * lol*
	Elie Spot	if LL accepts a versoin 1 without physics im fine w/ it haha
		just wondering if it can be incorporated
		at some poitn
		typos!
	Geenz Spad	I'm sure LL would want that in version 1 :P
	Asha	I'd assume Qarl's deformer would have to address avatar physics.
15:41	Elie Spot	i have a feeling they'll want that too yah
	Geenz Spad	Qarl's deformer actually does it automatically
	Asha	Yes right
	Allegory Malaprop	physics is using a similar system for its movement. it would not be impossible to build in at the same time
	Elie Spot	so in defining our own morph targets would we also have to define phyrics movement?
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Physics is something that more or less has to enter in the first step. Anyone else remember prim joints and Havok 4? ;)
	Geenz Spad	somewhere in the proposal I'm sure Elie
15:42	Elie Spot	or could this be automatic
		i cant stop making typos my apologies!!!
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Quite alright!
	Asha	The problem with physics is that we'd need a reference in our modelers too make the morphs around.
	Geenz Spad	but I can speak with some people at LL to find out if they'd really want that in version 1; they do have an influence on what will go into the proposal from a requirements point of view
	Asha	*to even
	Siddean Munro	Geenz is there anyone that you would suggest work on this proposal? I can provide some input but I think we need to get moving on it soon.
15:43	Elie Spot	good idea Geenz, best to find out how they'll respond to a version 1 with or without physics support
		maybe before we do the proposal? idk
	Geenz Spad	right, I can't suggest anyone in particular off the top of my head, but I do think we need to keep this one open ended; how about for the next meeting, we open the floor to everyone's ideas?
	Siddean Munro	Ok
15:44	Geenz Spad	from there Siddean and I can begin working on a draft
	Asha	Sounds good Geenz
	Nal	The proposal is good. But, how do we get Qarl moving on the Mesh Deformer? He is waiting for us to make a consensus, which sucks.
	Siddean Munro	Cool with me
	Elie Spot	sounds good!
		well in this case, morph targets wouldn't replace the deformer right?
	Geenz Spad	Nal, that actually gets into #5 on the agenda, but if Paola wouldn't mind us going ahead with that, we can discuss that now
	Braydon Randt	at the moment ... we have nothing ...... so we cant go wrong .. we just need to be consistant
15:45	Asha	Well, I think the mophs are a bit of a different deal from cbones versus deformer (albeit some overlap).
	Nal	Or do it in oder NP with that
	Elie Spot	ah right
	Asha	*morphs
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Elie, Asha; Features in SL are rarely mutually exclusive. There's likely room for both.
	Geenz Spad	right, well, on the subject of the deformer
	Elie Spot	agreed selkit
	Geenz Spad	during our last meeting, people seemed to want both
	Asha	It would be great to have both Selkit.
	Elie Spot	i def want both
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Applications for both, in fact. Prims are not obsolete simply because we have mesh and sculpts.
	Geenz Spad	now, the current hold up on the deformer is, do people want Qarl to continue with it
15:46	Elie Spot	custom morph targets are really advanced, i don't think everyone should have to do that
		heck yes
	Siddean Munro	I do because at the moment we have nothing at all and it's really holding back content development
	Geenz Spad	what Qarl currently wants is a consensus on whether people want his solution, or would have another solution, or want both
	Elie Spot	yeah, and even with morph targets i feel like it would still be used
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	My opinion leans towards both.
	Elie Spot	for people who dont want to do all that work
	Maxwell Graf	I think it would be crazy to abandon all the work he has done so far, and not simply because a lot of us paid for it.
	Vivi	Given that the deformer work Qarl is doing works with physics and all avatar sliders, vs the alternate method that uses the bones of the collision skeleton that doesn't work with physics and doesn't work with all sliders
	Asha	To my mind, Qarl's deformer and morphs would work pretty well and cover many issues from custom AVs, fixing size issues and opening up mesh animation.
15:47	Elie Spot	it will be extremely valuable to have both, for a lot of reasons imho
		and for content creators to have a choice
	Vivi	and complimentary solutions are not a bad thing really
	Siddean Munro	Absolutely
	Elie Spot	^^ agree
	Geenz Spad	if you have an opinion regarding this, I implore you to speak up! I'll most definitely talk to Qarl about it
	Siddean Munro	Can we comment on his blog about it?
15:48	Geenz Spad	that you can!
	Elie Spot	who wants both? do we all?
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I don't see why not.
	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	Yeah, I'm in favour of both
	Elie Spot	i do!
	Anouk Spot	i would want both
	Siddean Munro	I wasn't aware that he was waiting for anyone to give him the go ahead
	Nal	I would like all that I can get...
	tauber Paola von Tauber	from a mere consumer point of view, yes please! :D
	Asha	Both would be cool with me.
	Maxwell Graf	As I stated on Metareality last week, Id prefer, at this point, ANY solution that is going to 1) work the best and 2) do so with a minimum of additional work required by the designer during the creation process.
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Both seems to be fairly unanimous as a view.
	Vivi	and from what I understand the deformer is much closer to being reality, morph targets would require longer development time, the deformer project would give content creators (and users!) an enhanced toolset much sooner
	Maxwell Graf	if thats both, then im for it.
15:49	Braydon Randt	as am I
	Elie Spot	^^ agreed vivi
	sachi Vixen	I blame Max
		:P
	Maxwell Graf	lo
	Asha	lol
	dahlia1337 resident	what are the performance implications of having both, and do they conflict?
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Maxwell; I'm afraid that no one individual solution will do what you've mentioned, but when there's more than one tool, picking the right one for the right task works wonders.
	Elie Spot	deformer will be a shorter term release hopefully! is max waiting on our consensus about morph targets or was he waiting on more info about the possibility of cbones to pursue a different deformer entirely
		one that might work better altogether than his current?
		woops
		not max
		qarl
		lol
15:50	sachi Vixen	I think need whatever we can get asap
	Esprite Xavier	Waiting for features or toolsets to be completed or started on kinda sucks when you can have some solutions now :D
	Geenz Spad	there's no negative performance implications of having both specifically, just the performance implications that Qarl's produces its self; but he's done his best to mitigate that, and it only occurs when someone uploads a mesh to use his method specifically
	Nal	ASAP is good
	Geenz Spad	right then, sounds like we have a consensus
		I'll speak to Qarl this week about going for both
	Siddean Munro	Ok
	dahlia1337 resident	did the initial delay problem of the deformer get resolved?
15:51	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	To be fair, Geenz, artist practices have a huge impact on performance anywhere.
	Maxwell Graf	My biggest concern at this point is just how much work is going to be involved on the design end in order to get a system that works. If it requires X amount of additional weight painting and adjustment, various sizes, alpha maps, etc etc etc. then this becomes less and less of a viable solution as the workload increases, regardless of how well the end result works.
	Vivi	collision skeleton is workable but it's really kind of an ugly hack and it doesn't work as well as Qarl's method, so...as an interim solution while people wait on the deformer to ship in the viewer, it's useful but I don't see it as more than a stopgap
	Geenz Spad	http://www.qarl.com/qLab/?p=86 here's the most recent blog post I believe of the deformer
	dahlia1337 resident	qarl was mentioning adding an octree or something
	Geenz Spad	so if any of you want to go post something up there, feel free
	Nal	Dahlia, the 0.2 Mesh deformer had a lag. In the 0.3 version Qarl had it pretty well handled.
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Max; That's one of the topics that will need to be covered; a general consensus on just how things are implemented, the depth and complexity...
15:52	Elie Spot	the only issue with the latest deformer were the distortions on extreme shapes, everything else looked great
		I think when Qarl saw redpoly's demo, he was wondering if whatever they did could be used as part of the deformer
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Elie; That can be mitigated with tweaks to mesh design.
	Elie Spot	it cant, its because the base av is wonky in certain places
	Siddean Munro	The base avatar morphs are pretty ugly
	Elie Spot	so smoothing out the default avatar is one of the possible solutions
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Right, base av can't be helped, unfortunately.
	Elie Spot	which we're working on
	Maxwell Graf	When the pipeline for development becomes 10%% design and 90%% production methods, I think we run into a serious viability issue, not just for the individual designer, but for the entire population of people who may want to or are designing fashion.
	dahlia1337 resident	I would think the deformer has more potential for better deformations and additional features like facial expressions and lip sync
15:53	Elie Spot	it can selkit
	Vivi	the base avatar is not perfectly symmetrical among other things
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Topology on that poor old beastie is a nightmare in spots.
	Siddean Munro	Yes it really is
	Asha	That's why Qarl stated he would add the feature to have any base that you want. So, you could use a base closer to the extreme shape for those.
15:54	Siddean Munro	Dahlia, in order for your custom mesh face not to turn out really ugly, you have to build it exactly to Ruth.
	Nal	Having a selectable base avatar would be great.
	Asha	right
	dahlia1337 resident	exactly? lol well maybe with the vertices near ruth's vertices
	Braydon Randt	so start ugly ..... is the key
	Geenz Spad	:P
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I doubt we're ever going to quite outrun Ruth. :c
15:55	Siddean Munro	And then it looks just like the SL face, which kinda defeats the point of making a custom face :)
	Esprite Xavier	not unless someone comes up with some kinda transitional solution
	Braydon Randt	ruth a good old bird ..... bad hair day EVERY day
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Makes me a bit nostalgic.
	Geenz Spad	so anyways, shall we get on with Paola's topic?
	Siddean Munro	Yes
	Geenz Spad	Find a way to allow custom imported mesh avatars to wear existing content (textures/mesh). We need better, more detailed avatars, whilst retaining legacy content and immersive uniqueness. (Paola Tauber)
	Vivi	Not necessarily, it can look similar BUT increasing the number of tris and verts will improve the overall model considerably
	Maxwell Graf	I guess what im saying is that it is very easy in this situation to get completely caught up in the technical aspects of implementation, while very easy to forget or push aside the human factors of actually using this type of a system on a daily basis. It should be considered as importantly as the technical aspects.
	Martin RJ	I totally agree with Maxwell
15:56	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Vivi; It's not just a matter of polycount, unfortunately.
	Esprite Xavier	Be nice to see a new avatar mesh that had 2 uv sets, a new one and one that could make use of the old content by matching the uvs in some fashion, though that's not really a perfect solution either
	Geenz Spad	Maxwell: the workflow will be discussed some more at the next meeting (that or we can arrange a meeting specific to morph targets; it really is a large topic to discuss)
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Geenz; I may suggest we dedicate a meeting.
	dahlia1337 resident	well I would agree that the "bind" position (if Im not over-extending the term) of Ruth's lips are a bit too close for good deformation using the deformer :/
	Siddean Munro	Can we move onto the next topic? We're going to run out of time :)
	Geenz Spad	not a bad idea Selkit
15:57		anyways, so Paola's topic
	tauber Paola von Tauber	when you all stop giggling at that idea, my request it's coming from a consumer point of view. we can have custom mesh avatars, but we can't use legacy content. there must be a smart way to combine both
	dahlia1337 resident	legacy content like skins?
	Siddean Munro	Paola, the only way to use existing textures on new meshes is for the UV's to be exactly the same. I can't see how we can do that
	Geenz Spad	in the context of mesh avatar replacements, it wouldn't be a bad idea to extend some of the luxuries we have on the avatar mesh to them as well
	Nal	I don't think so Paola...
15:58	tauber Paola von Tauber	like cloth simulation, i understand it's blue sky thinking more than anything else
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Paola; Morph targets would alleviate at least some of that, allowing you to define your own clothing folds and wrinkles.
	sachi Vixen	I don't think you are ever going to be able to use legacy content with custom avatars. Things just don't physically work that way.
	dahlia1337 resident	the seams on the UV maps for Ruth are horrible, would be nearly impossible to match
	Geenz Spad	hm
	Siddean Munro	She's talking about being able to use existing skins on new custom built avatars, for example
	Geenz Spad	well, let's think of this from another angle shall we?
	Siddean Munro	Or your texture layer shirt
15:59	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Existing skins would have to be applied to a matching UV.
	Nal	Cloth sim is CPU intense. In blender it drives my machine to its knees. I doubt we will see in SL anytime soon.
	Allegory Malaprop	people are matching up the seams already. but there's the entire multi layering issue, the avatar mesh functions differently.
	sachi Vixen	If a mesh avatar is made that is better than ruth, even if you could bind it to the deformer you are never going to be able to wear Ruth's skins on it
	Braydon Randt	truth of the matter is .. legacy content . has been replaced, and there slittle we can do to make old stuff work on your frames
		new*
	sachi Vixen	Or Ruth's texture clothes
	Tya Fallingbridge	ruth needs to be cleaned up
	Maxwell Graf	i dont mean to add a secondary agenda, just responding to the fact that I see a ton of discussion about this or that technical element, and very little consideration for how it works when you have to use it every day, how it fits into a pipeline and how much of that pipeline it makes up. The entire issue should be prefaced with the original intent, which is to make this result easier to accomplish.
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Texture clothes require a matching UV.
	tauber Paola von Tauber	what do you mean Geenz?
	dahlia1337 resident	have you seen how jagged the seams on Ruth's arms are?
	Geenz Spad	how about we think about how we can extend some of the cool things we have on the base avatar that we don't have on mesh ones?
16:00	Allegory Malaprop	a large percentage of mesh avatars i've seen ARE using the matching UV with a retpop'd model
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I have. As I mentioned earlier, dahlia, Ruth is a mess.
	Braydon Randt	i agree with Max ...... making it simple ... is more important .. than anything else .. as over complicating a system will kill the desire to use it
	Allegory Malaprop	but you can only wear one extra "clothing layer" above the skin because layering doesn't work the same
	Elie Spot	allegory, like people took ruth and modded it a little?
	Vivi	Petites for instance are the most popular mesh avatars and they're based on the existing base shape and UV mapping
	Tya Fallingbridge	yes
	Allegory Malaprop	complete retopology, but matching UVs
	Siddean Munro	The petites are modified SL avatars
	Allegory Malaprop	all the petite avatars, for instance
16:01	tauber Paola von Tauber	how about we think about how we can extend some of the cool things we have on the base avatar that we don't have on mesh ones?
		what do you mean by that Geenz?
	Geenz Spad	well, baked textures for example
	Allegory Malaprop	they use a very different topology that has less distortion (higher poly as well as different choices made in overall topology, smoother weight painting, etc.)
	Siddean Munro	If I were to build a custom avatar there is no way it'd be using SL texture layers
16:02	Braydon Randt	its like wrapping a diamond in brown paper
	Asha	lol
		No kidding
	Siddean Munro	Baked layers would be a good idea actually
	Allegory Malaprop	meshes do not support texture "layering" in the manner the avatar does. decals, undershirt/shirt/jacket
	Geenz Spad	sure they're not "amazing", but it'd allow content creators to make a base avatar that others can easily create clothing for
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Baked mesh layers would make me drool in unseemly ways. [16:02] AshaAsha chuckles
	Braydon Randt	why not ...... as you can alpha your mesh layers ?
16:03	Geenz Spad	Allegory: however, the existing mechanisms for baked texture layers would apply to meshes as well, it wouldn't be all that complex
	Braydon Randt	well ... i duppodsr face issues
	Esprite Xavier	meshes do support multiple uvs as well
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	We're currently limited to a single material per-face right now, Braydon.
	Braydon Randt	, wtfv did i just type *lol*
	Asha	no idea Bray ^^
	Allegory Malaprop	layering alphas brings up alpha issues
	Finlay MacFanatic	duppodsr
	Allegory Malaprop	i.e. alphas do not play nicely.
	Geenz Spad	it's not explicitly tied to the avatar mesh, having actually looked at how that works, it could be extended to meshes as well
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Allegory; Hence, baking them in layers much like the existing avatar.
	Braydon Randt	well thats a whole new issues to play with isnt it
16:04	Martin RJ	some news: SL has 30 million registered accounts now. And: did you all read about that: SL doesn't have an age verification anymore http://bit.ly/slageverific
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I'm afraid that's not very relevant to our current topic, Martin.
	Allegory Malaprop	yes selkit, which is what i meant by decals, and layering in the same manner as the existing avatar mesh, not using alpha layers as a solution, because it isn't really.
	Siddean Munro	Ok here's an example. I make a mesh avatar - I want to include cleavage, freckles, makeups wihtout having to change the head mesh or complete texture
	Martin RJ	no not really, but it's past 4pm :)
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I didn't suggest using alpha layers, Allegory.
16:05	Geenz Spad	Martin: the meeting lasts till 4:15 :P
	Martin RJ	oooh
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Siddean; That's precisely what layering would permit.
	Allegory Malaprop	no, but someone else in the discussion did :)
	Siddean Munro	So I would want to do it in layers like we do now
		Exactly
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Hell, we need that for meshes in general, not just avatars.
	Vivi	1-bit instead of 8-bit alphas layer properly BUT 1-bit alphas also have issues with image resolution and edge aliasing
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Build a car, want to add decals or numbering or weathering? Bake a combined material. <3
16:06	Allegory Malaprop	you can get around that with baking the layers, vivi
	Geenz Spad	so, I guess, it turns into, who thinks clothing layers like we have for the existing avatar mesh would be a good idea for rigged meshes as well? specifically those that are intended to replace the avatar mesh?
	tauber Paola von Tauber	me! :D
		(i think!)
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	I'd actually think extending that beyond avatars and into general materials is a better, more broad-purpose idea.
	Siddean Munro	I think it's a good idea,it's work for close fitting clothing layers like underwear that can be worn underneath rigged mesh outer clothing
	Braydon Randt	so what we want .... is the SL avatar .. but custom .... with all the bells and whistles it has ... without it looking like Bicentenial man
16:07	Geenz Spad	basically, yes Braydon, and I'd see clothing layers as a good starting point to that
	Esprite Xavier	so just a way to use all the existing texture slots but use a custom avatar mesh?
	Vivi	I think it's a good idea, yes, if possible
	tauber Paola von Tauber	i'd be happy with that
	Nal	Since the Lab is building new compositing servers... this could be a complex issue just now.
	Esprite Xavier	well I just "just" but it's probably more complicated
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Complexity is a cost of progress, unfortunately.
	Geenz Spad	Esprite: yes, although I think we'd also want the ability to have your own UVs for it as well
	Braydon Randt	what we dont want ...... is to rush a half assed solution for anything .. or we get the " we dont want to break existing content" in 3 years
16:08	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Geenz, I think we have another one-topic meeting we need to schedule. ;)
	Geenz Spad	we still have some time to discuss it
	Vivi	I'm not sure how it would be a complex issue as I assume the new compositing servers won't change the compositing apart from taking the load of doing it off the simulator and ending the client-side compositing currently used, other than that it shouldn't generate any specific issues?
	Allegory Malaprop	it's a solution that could be extended to buildings, which could lower texture size as well.
	Geenz Spad	though I will want to speak with Toast shortly afterwards about their issue
16:09		and that's correct Vivi
	Toast Bard	:D
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Allegory; Composite textures for non-avatar meshes would make me melt in glee.
	Esprite Xavier	yeah, it'd be interesting to see where it goes but ya know, kinda got to the point of expecting nothing until it's there hehe
	Geenz Spad	I know the person who was working on the shining project in that regard, I can talk to him how this would effect that, and if they can factor this into their design
	Nal	Vivienne, it is going to be politically complex. Getting the Lab to change mid process is not easy.
16:10	Geenz Spad	you never know Nal, how the existing compositing system actually works is very simple
		it's literally layering textures on top of each other in a specific order
	Nal	I'll give you that Geenz... see what they say.
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Merging down by layer priority.
16:11	Esprite Xavier	flatten image :)
	Geenz Spad	so it won't be too much trouble to speak to the lab about it
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	It'd be nice if we could specify blend mode per layer, but that, may be significantly more troublesome to ask for.
	Geenz Spad	right, let's keep it simple for now
	Braydon Randt	might be something that can merged into the materials system we want real bad
	Siddean Munro	So are you going to talk to someone at the Lab about that Geenz?
	Tya Fallingbridge	k.i.s.s.
	Geenz Spad	I will be
16:12	Siddean Munro	Ok cool :)
	tauber Paola von Tauber	yes. for the dumb girl over here (me): keep it simple and give me a better body on which i can plaster my beloved skin :D
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	If asking fails, please break out the nuclear puppy eyes. We *need* that.
	Geenz Spad	we only have a few minutes left, so Toast? Do you have a means to reproduce the alpha problem?
	Maxwell Graf	RL calls. Have a good day all.
	Esprite Xavier	Wish ya the best in that reguard :D
	Asha	Bye Max
	Maxwell Graf	...HOLA!!...
	Braydon Randt	laters max
16:13	Esprite Xavier	I wonder if that seam issue is somehow related to mip mapping or something
	sachi Vixen	I don't think that will ever be feasible Paola. To wear your existing skin with a custom avatar.
	Toast Bard	sure lemme just grap a screenshot
		one sec
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Paola, wearing your skin with a custom avatar would entail precisely matching the UVs and closely matching surface topology to avoid deformation.
	Toast Bard	http://gyazo.com/3b2286ef8d19a2a636190f751258c736
	sachi Vixen	Unless the creator remade it for the custom specifically
	Anouk Spot	i can see it right now on Lamb's hair
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Essentially it would be a slightly upgraded version of Ruth.
	Anouk Spot	it conflicts with the background tree
	Geenz Spad	I haven't seen your issue personally, but I know of others who have been seeing it recently; if I have a solid reproduction case, I can look into it, or forward it to the correct person
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	And it would still have to share Ruth's faults.
	Toast Bard	you can see in that picture that the alpha on lambs hair is cutting out the things behind it, and if there were alphas on her hair behidn it, the prim would cut them out too
16:14		as if it were an invisiprom
	Lamb Bellic	allegory's hair as well
	Toast Bard	its incredibly difficult as a designer to work with this
	Siddean Munro	isn't this the long standing opengl alpha sorting issue?
	Koli Melune	I *think* runitai has fixed that.
	Esprite Xavier	alpha sorting :(
	Toast Bard	because she couldnt wear like, say, a sheer shirt with that
	Allegory Malaprop	rigged mesh renders alpha like this- it's not the sorting thing really
	Toast Bard	yeah
	Koli Melune	I seem to remember some MAINT JIRA about something with that.
	Geenz Spad	hm, it *looks* like fast alpha, I'll ask Runitai about it
	Toast Bard	its def not a flickering issue
	Allegory Malaprop	rigged completely fails to render any alphas behind it all- no flicker, nothing. and yes, there's a jira, though i don't recall the number
	Anouk Spot	doesn't look fixed to me
16:15	Koli Melune	The fix isn't out of QA. :p
	Geenz Spad	and yes, I see it Allegory's hair
	Toast Bard	you can see it in every mesh hair with an alpha
	Allegory Malaprop	rigged mesh [16:15] Koli MeluneKoli Melune wonders if he can find the JIRA.
	Toast Bard	or any mesh item
	Allegory Malaprop	it's exclusively a rigged mesh issue: hair's most obvious, as people are just avoiding alphas elsewhere because of it
	Geenz Spad	if there's a specific JIRA for that, give it to me please
16:16	Siddean Munro	Is this to do with mesh rigged hair that makes eyelashes disappear?
	Toast Bard	yeah i'd bet
	Siddean Munro	I think I have a jira in about that
	Geenz Spad	looks like we're going over out time slot again :) not a problem though
	Anouk Spot	i've seen this happen with non rigged mesh as well
		like with glasses with alpha, it's not flickering that happens, it just blanks out that area
	Geenz Spad	right, if there isn't a JIRA for it, please file one; either I'll look into a fix, or I'll speak with someone who works in that area
16:17	dahlia1337 resident	doesn anyone know when are mesh attachments drawn wrt other parts of an avatar?
	Koli Melune	Oh, the JIRA I was thinking of is different, but somewhat the same: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MAINT-622
	Toast Bard	so theres no insider information on how close a fix is to completion?
	sachi Vixen	Isn't the blanking out the same reaction as the flickering but because the prims/mesh are different the reaction is slightly different?
	Geenz Spad	I haven't been told anything, sorry
	Siddean Munro	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2836
	Anouk Spot	oh i'm not sure
	Toast Bard	ah alright
16:18	Siddean Munro	that's the one I reported
	Allegory Malaprop	i've noticed an increase in alpha rendering being a little
		off, in general
	Geenz Spad	I think that sums up Toast's issue, can you look over it and make sure Toast?
	Toast Bard	well yeah my issue was just to find out if there was actually a fix being worked on and how far along it was
	Allegory Malaprop	things flickering out and completely turning invisible- i'm wondering if that might be more your issue, Anouk, this particular thing seems to be exclusively rigged, consistently
16:19	Toast Bard	but since theres no insider information i guess all i can do is wait
	Geenz Spad	I'll ask around about it
	Toast Bard	thank you :D
	Anouk Spot	it could be, alle!
	Geenz Spad	anyways, thank you all for coming to today's meeting!
16:20	Toast Bard	will you be making another meeting just for deformer talk?
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	Thank you for not throwing rotten fruit. :D
	tauber Paola von Tauber	bye and thank you
	Geenz Spad	I'll be discussing that with the relevant people, Toast
	Toast Bard	noice!
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	T'would be shiny to have a dedicated chat about that.
	Geenz Spad	and as always, we do have an open agenda, so feel free to get some items up for next week's meeting
16:21	Asha	Thanks for the meeting guys.
	Braydon Randt	aye ... thank you
	Geenz Spad	for those of you who missed that URL, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
	woozl Selkit T. Woozl	You're very welcome, Asha, Braydon and everyone.
	Esprite Xavier	Yep thanks, fun to talk about this stuff :)
	Geenz Spad	we will have the logs posted up in an hour or two