Mesh/Archive/2012-03-05

Agenda

1. Clouds and grey and blurry avatars, oh my! [Nyx Linden]
2. Mesh upload timeouts since 3.2.5 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28413 Darien Caldwell 10:08, 5 March 2012 (PST)
3. A question and a complaint I often see is that "Include textures" doesn't seem to actually upload any textures and apply them, as would be expected. It's a minor point for most, just upload separately and apply manually, but why have an option if it doesn't do anything? Is "Include textures" supposed to upload the related textures for the model and apply them? Or does it do something else? - Feynt Mistral 08:49, 5 March 2012 (PST)
4. Another question I hear often is whether SL supports normal/bump/specular maps. During the closed mesh beta we heard talk of a future materials system. Is there any word on whether that's even in planning? If it's "on the stack", is it at least somewhere near the top instead of near the bottom with more and more being piled upon it? - Feynt Mistral 08:49, 5 March 2012 (PST)
5. Collada 1.4.1 isn't well supported when using more than one texture per mesh (they get mixed). Collada 1.4.0 still working fine. This problem is easy to reproduce. An OBJ file can be exported using Autodesk FBX Converter 2011.3.1 and FBX Converter 2012 to Collada files. One is possible to upload the other one have errors on textures. I also know some people had this problem too using Maya 2012 and Max 2012 aswell as in olders versions updating the plugin to 2012 version. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28488 [Kitsune Shan]
6. The mesh importer dont show "edges" when you check the box. It seems to show them, but in white wich is the same color of the mesh so is impossible to see teh difference. Also happens with the physic shape. It should be also less restrictions to move, zoom and pan the mesh. (An only wireframe option could be useful too) [Kitsune Shan]
7. Blender has a naming convention for mapping bone weights in mirrored paint mode, either .R and .L, or _R and _L for right and left bones (respectively). So elbow.R, elbow.L, shoulder.R, shoulder.L, and so on. I recall before the mesh beta went open, we were asked what other conventions besides the LL default would be appreciated. I mentioned this at the time, but I don't believe any have been added (Blender or not). Is it possible to make this change, possibly in an XML file or something which we could edit as a community to include different mappings for the bones based on our programs conventions? - Feynt Mistral 09:12, 5 March 2012 (PST)
8. Improvements to mesh previewer. Full screen preview with textures and full viewport manipulation including in world lighting. This would greatly enhance the mesh upload experience could possibly be implemented as a temp upload only viewable by the uploading user ( that may have some restrictions for collaborative works ). TheyCallMeDick Cheney 09:19, 5 March 2012 (PST)
9. Will the requirement that all LODs use the same materials be removed? This is a source of errors and time consuming. Cain Maven 10:23, 5 March 2012 (PST)
10. Will the ability to set the center/pivot point be added? It would make creation of objects such as swinging doors and faucets easier, and remove the need to add extra geometry. Cain Maven 10:23, 5 March 2012 (PST)
11. With respect to #9, I've noticed that the error messages returned to people regarding materials are very cryptic. They're a scant 20-40 characters, and offer no real hints to the artist as to what's wrong with their model, and only possible reasons to a programmer (unless you happen to have the source code for the viewer handy). Is it possible that the error codes could be prefaced with a code for easy wiki look ups, or converted to human (read: artist) readable errors so the same problem doesn't crop up over and over in group chat? - Feynt Mistral 10:49, 5 March 2012 (PST)
12. What about adding a cellshade option for prims and Meshes? This should reduces the streaming cost as you tend to do it with double sculpties for sculpts with the outer one inside out and a whole extra set of outer triangles for Mesh objects with the face Normals pointing inwards. [Davido Chrome]
13. Now that Charlar is engaged elsewhere, have the Linden Realm tools beta testing plans been shelved, delayed, or will it still go ahead? [Vivienne Daguerre]
14. Is there a forum to discuss problems and issues with pathfinding on the aditi grid? [Vivienne Daguerre]
15. Where can we turn for support regarding aditi issues? I changed my password to update my inventory. Now My inventory does not save from session to session, so any work I do is lost when I log out. [Vivienne Daguerre] -- Me too. I changed pw this weekend and I can't save from secession to secession either. Nalates Urriah
16. Do we know the status of this UG? Trinity's sign suggests its finished. Nalates Urriah

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

• Al Supercharge (al.supercharge)
• Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
• Cain Maven (cain.maven)
• Ossanha (cube.republic)
• Dan Linden (dan.linden)
• Darien Caldwell (darien.caldwell)(User's Wiki Page)
• √ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
• Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
• Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
• Geenz Kitten (geenz.spad)
• Gramma Fiddlesticks (gramma.fiddlesticks)
• Ima Mechanique (ima.mechanique)(User's Wiki Page)
• JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
• Jonathan (jonathan.yap)
• Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)
• Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
• Nal (nalates.urriah)
• Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)(User's Wiki Page)
• Raziels Lyric (raziels.lyric)
• Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
• Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood)
• TheyCallMeDick Cheney (theycallmedick.cheney)
• Vir Linden (vir.linden)
• Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
• Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
• Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)

Transcript for Monday March 5, 2012

[11:58]	Koli Melune	Here's Nyx.
[11:58]	Martin RJ	he said they cancelled his position at linden lab
[11:58]	Nal	I and some others gues he was transferred to an LL but non-SL project. The other games... we don't know
[11:58]	Yuzuru	Hello Nyx!
[11:58]	Martin RJ	neither was he fired nor did he leave
[11:58]	Yuzuru	What is happened?
[11:58]	Nyx Linden	greetings all
[11:59]	Gaia Clary	yuzuru, i just watched your keystroke tool looking good ! :)
[11:59]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	they de-rezzed him
[11:59]	Cain Maven	*everybody
[11:59]	ÄlveKatt	Heya Nyx.
[11:59]	Ossanha	hey nyx
[11:59]	ÄlveKatt	We are Confused about Charalar.
[11:59]	Asha	Hi Nyx and Cain
[12:00]	Asha	The keystroke tool is cool Yuzuru. I may have to try that for my new tutorial series. ^^
[12:01]	Yuzuru	Thank you Ahsa!
[12:01]	Asha	:)
[12:02]	Wolfpup	hello to all lindens
[12:02]	Yuzuru	Hello, Vir Linden.
[12:02]	Asha	Hiya Vir
[12:02]	Darien Caldwell	greetings Vir and Dan
[12:02]	Dan Linden	hello
[12:02]	Darien Caldwell	and Nyx ;p
[12:02]	Vir Linden	Howdy all
[12:03]	Koli Melune	/me waves. :o
[12:03]	Martin RJ	hello Dan and Vir
[12:03]	Nyx Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03]	Martin RJ	hello Nyx
[12:03]	Nyx Linden	got a lot of topics this week! Have one I'd like to discuss myself so lets get started
[12:04]	Nal	k
[12:04]	Jonathan	there are no agenda topics in that link?
[12:04]	Nyx Linden	first topic: Clouds and grey and blurry avatars, oh my! [Nyx Linden]
[12:04]	Jonathan	ah, had to refresh
[12:05]	Nyx Linden	I'm starting to look into some of the issues surrounding why avatars stay grey and/or clouded for extended periods of time. I was wondering if anyone was able to reproduce such issues on their own avatar reliably?
[12:05]	Nal	Not reliably but often
[12:05]	Darien Caldwell	I've seen it with people on occasion, but never on myself.
[12:05]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	we discovered that if you change your own group the avatars become -un-grayed
[12:06]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	tag
[12:06]	Nyx Linden	hrm, wonder why changing a group tag would un-stick the texture pipeline
[12:06]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	we can't understand why that should be
[12:06]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	it works
[12:06]	Nal	Also, I sometimes have to travel to another region to get the rebake to give me a crips render
[12:06]	Ossanha	I get a bug when i clear cache, my avatar apears as a mixture of alpha and multi coloured triangles, some times it take ages to clear. I've found if i go to a full prim sim instead on homesread it usually resolves the problem but can take an age
[12:07]	Nal	It is an old fix for forcing a particle ball avatar to render, change tag or group.
[12:07]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	Nyx perhaps now knowing that switching groups can instantly cure greyed out avatars might lead you to a solution
[12:07]	Nal	Not only does it fix me, it fixes grey avatars around me.
[12:08]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	that's what I meant Nal
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	well we have created a viewer that puts a lot of extra info into the log file
[12:08]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	it fixes all the grayed avatars around you
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	if a few of you would be willing to give it a shot, and save any log files along with descriptions of what failures you saw during the session it may help us hunt down some bugs :)
[12:09]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	you're gonna need a bigger net
[12:09]	Nal	I'll give it a try
[12:09]	Nyx Linden	http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/runway/latest.html
[12:09]	Ossanha	how do i save a log file (noob question)
[12:09]	Darien Caldwell	is it going to help if you only see others permanently grey? or only if you yourself get greyed?
[12:09]	Nyx Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Help#Where_do_I_find_my_SecondLife.log_file.3F
[12:10]	Nal	If you want more testers I'll put it in the blog?
[12:10]	Koli Melune	I don't seem to get the grey avatars bug much, if at all. I don't get the clouded one much, but the related bug to it - people being ruthed.
[12:10]	Nyx Linden	the log file gets overwritten every time you run SL, so you'll have to copy it to somwhere else on your computer to save it.
[12:10]	Drongle McMahon	It says "in progress"
[12:10]	Nyx Linden	the previous good build should work
[12:10]	Nyx Linden	250307
[12:10]	Drongle McMahon	ok
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	there are a lot of moving parts in the avatar pipeline, this should just give us some more data to analyze where the failures happen most often
[12:11]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	/mw wonders if Mikki Miles has yet made a mesh purfling tool
[12:12]	ÄlveKatt	Purfling?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden	if you see specific failures please either file a jira with the log file and a screenshot/description of what the failure is, or email the log to me with the same.
[12:12]	Mikki Miles	I don't even know what purfling is ;-)
[12:13]	Nyx Linden	next topic! Mesh upload timeouts since 3.2.5 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28413 Darien Caldwell 10:08, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:13]	JIRA-helper	[#VWR-28413] Cannot upload any model (*.dae) file; "xxx failed to upload, see the log file for details" - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:13]	Darien Caldwell	yes, this has been an ongoing issue since 3.2.5, although it seems to keep changing slightly.
[12:14]	Darien Caldwell	with 3.2.8 it's now near constant 408 errors on upload
[12:14]	Nyx Linden	and its a consistent failure?
[12:14]	ÄlveKatt	Maybe it was filtered out on account of being xxx-rated? XD
[12:14]	Darien Caldwell	I have to use 3.2.4
[12:14]	Ossanha	i had that today
[12:14]	Ossanha	twice
[12:14]	Ossanha	but then a relog sorted it
[12:14]	Darien Caldwell	3.2.4 never fails
[12:14]	Nyx Linden	what % of the time do you get that would you say?
[12:14]	Ossanha	once or twice a day
[12:14]	Darien Caldwell	well, it varies by time of day, the moon phase, and what I ate for breakfast.
[12:15]	Ossanha	the more annoying one is when the preview window has some random texture (usually terrain) in it
[12:15]	Nyx Linden	please include what you ate for breakfast on the days of the failure ;)
[12:15]	Darien Caldwell	*giggle*
[12:15]	Darien Caldwell	I have a feeling it's latency related
[12:15]	Darien Caldwell	and of course that can vary widely
[12:15]	Darien Caldwell	408 error is a timeout error
[12:15]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	your viewer is latency intolerant
[12:15]	Darien Caldwell	408 Request Timeout
[12:15]	Nyx Linden	alright, thanks for the log file and dae. Feel free to post more logs if you see different behavior
[12:16]	Darien Caldwell	sure
[12:16]	Nyx Linden	we'll see if we can take a look at it and figure out what's going on :)
[12:16]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Mesh upload timeouts since 3.2.5 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28413 Darien Caldwell 10:08, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:16]	JIRA-helper	[#VWR-28413] Cannot upload any model (*.dae) file; "xxx failed to upload, see the log file for details" - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:16]	Darien Caldwell	ok, i don't relish being stuck on an old viewer version
[12:16]	Darien Caldwell	thanks
[12:17]	Nyx Linden	A question and a complaint I often see is that "Include textures" doesn't seem to actually upload any textures and apply them, as would be expected. It's a minor point for most, just upload separately and apply manually, but why have an option if it doesn't do anything? Is "Include textures" supposed to upload the related textures for the model and apply them? Or does it do something else? - Feynt Mistral 08:49, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:17]	ÄlveKatt	We allready did that one.
[12:17]	ÄlveKatt	Sounds related to if you pack the textures into the .dae file or not.
[12:17]	Vir Linden	it is supposed to upload textures - if it's failing, please file a JIRA with a log.
[12:18]	Vir Linden	and attach the dae/other files.
[12:18]	Gaia Clary	the textures are packed in the dae ??? i thought they alwayx qare extra files which "also" get uploaded ... no ?
[12:18]	Darien Caldwell	Someone told me the textures must be in the same directory as the dae
[12:18]	Gaia Clary	Darien thats what i heard too
[12:18]	Vir Linden	it could be a path thing - we can diagnose if we have an example.
[12:18]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	dae is a text file
[12:19]	Gaia Clary	Vir, where do you EXPECT the textures to be ?
[12:19]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	open a DAE in a text editor and have a read
[12:19]	Asha	With Blender, it would work with static mesh and not woth rigged ones.
[12:19]	Vir Linden	IIRC they should be in the same dir, but I think the texture spec in the dae can include a path
[12:19]	Asha	*with
[12:19]	Gaia Clary	ok
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon	I guess iot depends on the collada exporter, what it puts in the file.
[12:20]	Gaia Clary	something to play with :)
[12:20]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	it can't put images in teh dae file
[12:20]	ÄlveKatt	So it's not usable as a container?
[12:20]	Vir Linden	Yeah, check exactly how the texture is getting specified in the dae
[12:20]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	dae is a simple text file
[12:20]	ÄlveKatt	Ok.
[12:20]	Drongle McMahon	It puts urls, which can be relative or absolute paths etc.
[12:21]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	I'e taken chunks of the exported dae file you using notepad and still uploaded sucessfully
[12:21]	ÄlveKatt	So, if you feel adventurous you could make a model via an text editor. XD
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	if we can get some specific examples, we'll try to hunt down the issue :)
[12:21]	Asha	You mean if you are feeling masochistic.
[12:21]	Ossanha	i suspect that may have a steeper learning curve than blender
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	in the meantime we have a lot of other topics!
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Another question I hear often is whether SL supports normal/bump/specular maps. During the closed mesh beta we heard talk of a future materials system. Is there any word on whether that's even in planning? If it's "on the stack", is it at least somewhere near the top instead of near the bottom with more and more being piled upon it? - Feynt Mistral 08:49, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:22]	ÄlveKatt	:D
[12:22]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	Feyn't is echoing my thoughts from over a year ago
[12:22]	Ossanha	as soon as we get them these couches have to go :P
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	I personally don't know exactly what is in the stack or what the exact order is at the moment
[12:23]	Geenz Kitten	doooty doot dot doot :>
[12:23]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	normal maps could ( should ) lead to a less vertex rich SL experience
[12:24]	Nyx Linden	a materials would be a nifty feature to add, but I'm not sure where it is in our list of priorities currently. My current focus is working on avatar issues.
[12:24]	Geenz Kitten	Nyx: think "proposal" stage
[12:24]	Nal	I saw somwone in the forum having a problem with shiny messing up his custom bump map... how did he get that in?
[12:24]	Drongle McMahon	.. does "avatar issues" include the deformer?
[12:25]	Jonathan	Oz still needs someone to merge the deformer changes into the current viewer-development
[12:25]	Nyx Linden	I'm focusing on getting avatars to load first :D
[12:25]	Vir Linden	clouding/gray issues, outfit changes, caching, that kind of stuff
[12:25]	Nal	Well... loading avatars could be handy...
[12:26]	Koli Melune	Killing ruth once and for all, please. :p
[12:26]	Ossanha	i always took that for granted as lag nyx
[12:26]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Collada 1.4.1 isn't well supported when using more than one texture per mesh (they get mixed). Collada 1.4.0 still working fine. This problem is easy to reproduce. An OBJ file can be exported using Autodesk FBX Converter 2011.3.1 and FBX Converter 2012 to Collada files. One is possible to upload the other one have errors on textures. I also know some people had this problem too using Maya 2012 and Max 2012 aswell as in olders versions updating the plugin to 2012 version. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28488 [Kitsune Shan]
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	do I see a properly filed bug report with an example dae file? <3
[12:28]	ÄlveKatt	The only problem I have had with Multiple Mesh textures is that I couldn't get Shininess to work on one of the surfaces.
[12:28]	ÄlveKatt	I can give you the object if you like.
[12:28]	Gaia Clary	davido: have you ensured that your textures do all have NO alpha channel ?
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	will have to take a look and see if the exporter is doing something that our importer doesn't expect
[12:29]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	good point Gaia
[12:29]	ÄlveKatt	Gaia, no, let me check.
[12:29]	Darien Caldwell	i know i've had no problems with shiny and multiple materials. i use that a lot
[12:29]	Gaia Clary	btw... is this alpha issue an issue or a feature ... ???
[12:30]	Al Supercharge	you can ask the LOLA bird makers -- they use all 8 textures in a 1 PE
[12:30]	Al Supercharge	for anim
[12:31]	Nyx Linden	looks like we have the information we need to investigate this one. thanks!
[12:31]	Nyx Linden	next topic: The mesh importer dont show "edges" when you check the box. It seems to show them, but in white wich is the same color of the mesh so is impossible to see teh difference. Also happens with the physic shape. It should be also less restrictions to move, zoom and pan the mesh. (An only wireframe option could be useful too) [Kitsune Shan]
[12:31]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	Nix, can you give a little wave from all of us to the coders you are talking with
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	I'll pass it on :)
[12:32]	ÄlveKatt	/me scratches head. Must be the texture, works on this one.
[12:32]	Darien Caldwell	I can agree the upload preview window is way too tiny and doesn't zoom in nearly enough.
[12:33]	Darien Caldwell	especially when uploading small objects, you can't even see them at full zoom
[12:33]	Ossanha	can i slip one in...is there a known bug with physics collision..on objects that are not completely flat--> even if the physics model follws the contour of the mesh, i still find my avi 1/2 m above sometimes
[12:33]	Gaia Clary	ages ago the uploader could be resized. that was a nicd feature :)
[12:33]	Ima Mechanique	Squirrel could you turn a little, your tail is tickling my nose ;-)
[12:34]	Asha	:D
[12:34]	ÄlveKatt	Osshana, have you remembered to set the physics shape to Prim?
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	is there a JIRA for this? If so please make sure the bug is filed separately from the feature request (outline color vs window size / zooming)
[12:34]	Ossanha	for sure
[12:34]	Ossanha	i drove myself mad trying to make a rope bridge
[12:35]	Ossanha	the central span collision exactly followed the contour of the walkway
[12:35]	ÄlveKatt	Not too tight a fit?
[12:35]	Ossanha	i tried everything
[12:35]	Ossanha	lifting it , lowering it, cold sweats
[12:35]	Nyx Linden	ready to move on?
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Blender has a naming convention for mapping bone weights in mirrored paint mode, either .R and .L, or _R and _L for right and left bones (respectively). So elbow.R, elbow.L, shoulder.R, shoulder.L, and so on. I recall before the mesh beta went open, we were asked what other conventions besides the LL default would be appreciated. I mentioned this at the time, but I don't believe any have been added (Blender or not). Is it possible to make this change, possibly in an XML file or something which we could edit as a community to include different mappings for the bones based on our programs conventions? - Feynt Mistral 09:12, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:36]	ÄlveKatt	Ossana, maybe your collsion shape doesn't align?
[12:36]	Ossanha	it did i made it from the same faces
[12:37]	ÄlveKatt	If the ropes are in the same object I mean.
[12:37]	Nyx Linden	ooh interesting. Any open source devs want to take this on?
[12:37]	Ossanha	i tried cutting it into 2 objects
[12:37]	Ossanha	then the PE went higher than the whole lot combined so i gave up
[12:38]	ÄlveKatt	Res it after the user group and we can look at it.
[12:38]	Nyx Linden	I'd definitely be interested in seeing a patch for supporting such conventions :)
[12:38]	Al Supercharge	should we be using the .bvh xml notations if any ?
[12:38]	Squirrely Wrath	no clue how daz3d names bones and stuff, but likely totally different..
[12:39]	Gaia Clary	/me thinks it is a good idea to have such a convention description file ...
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	each editor seems to have its own little quirks and standards
[12:39]	Darien Caldwell	maybe throw in the ability to not need every bone specified while you're at it? ;)
[12:39]	Squirrely Wrath	how about a bone editor where you can rename or assign ?
[12:39]	Ossanha	/me notices lack of mesh avis at mesh meeting
[12:40]	Squirrely Wrath	bpo
[12:40]	Squirrely Wrath	bone mapping
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Improvements to mesh previewer. Full screen preview with textures and full viewport manipulation including in world lighting. This would greatly enhance the mesh upload experience could possibly be implemented as a temp upload only viewable by the uploading user ( that may have some restrictions for collaborative works ). TheyCallMeDick Cheney 09:19, 5 March 2012 (PST) (speaking of feature requests :) )
[12:40]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	how about the ability to correct bone rotations in the previewer for people like me that mess things up :)
[12:40]	ÄlveKatt	+1 on local temp upload.
[12:41]	Vir Linden	this is another area where we would be happy to see someone submitting a patch. Not likely to have cycles to take this on internally in the near future.
[12:41]	Darien Caldwell	temp upload would require some help on the server side, correct?
[12:42]	Darien Caldwell	or is that possible soley on the viewer side?
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	think more "local preview" than "temporary upload"
[12:42]	Vir Linden	That might be a hard one.
[12:42]	ÄlveKatt	Does that mean, that if you are a third party viewer developer who want to add this feature, it will be sure to make it in if it is submitted?
[12:42]	Darien Caldwell	hmm
[12:42]	Ossanha	personally by the time I've got to upload I've got a pretty good idea of what the model looks like
[12:42]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	/me can see AlveKatt grinning
[12:43]	Darien Caldwell	well for my particular case, it's usually about seeing how the rigging performs against the actual avatar.
[12:43]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	that's generally true Ossan but there are still surprises
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	there's a review process that every submission has to go through, both for design/product review as well as code review. It would be an interesting feature to work with third party devs on though.
[12:43]	Darien Caldwell	but I can keep using the beta grid to test. it's only mildly inconvenient
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	Oz coordinates the patch submission process if you have questions there.
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Will the requirement that all LODs use the same materials be removed? This is a source of errors and time consuming. Cain Maven 10:23, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:44]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	answer no
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	Each prim has eight texture "slots", that are not independent for each LOD
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon	See VWR-27873. It is about this issue.
[12:44]	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27873
[12:45]	Gaia Clary	hasnt that been changed to lower LOD needs a subsdt of the materials from higher LOD ?
[12:45]	Ossanha	just make sure all lod have the same material count, i hide them on a triangle, works evey time
[12:45]	Drongle McMahon	It regressed, Gaia.
[12:45]	Gaia Clary	ouw....
[12:46]	Asha	They have said just a subset for the longest. But, you need them to match still.
[12:46]	Nyx Linden	oh its not accepting a subset in the lower LODs anymore?
[12:46]	Cain Maven	i can make it work, but it takes time and might require added geometry just to meet this requirement
[12:46]	Asha	No Nyx
[12:46]	Vir Linden	If it's not accepting a subset, we should get a JIRA on that.
[12:46]	ÄlveKatt	Can someone define Subset for me?
[12:46]	Ossanha	^^
[12:46]	Nyx Linden	VWR-27873 is the right jira for that issue?
[12:47]	Drongle McMahon	Nyx ... no. It went back to requiring all of them when the fix for materials in physics mesh was fixed.
[12:47]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	TheyDick is a subset of TheyCallMeDick
[12:47]	Nyx Linden	excellent, thanks for bringing this to our attention :)
[12:47]	Asha	Sorry, I don't remember the jira number for that.
[12:47]	Nyx Linden	several more topics to get through, so thanks for giving us the information in the JIRA :)
[12:47]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Will the ability to set the center/pivot point be added? It would make creation of objects such as swinging doors and faucets easier, and remove the need to add extra geometry. Cain Maven 10:23, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:48]	Drongle McMahon	I think that's right
[12:48]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	PLEASE !!!!!!
[12:48]	Darien Caldwell	it was my understanding you can do this already in Blender.
[12:48]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	darien
[12:48]	Nal	Yes, but it doesn't import
[12:48]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	sl uses the bounding box center
[12:48]	Drongle McMahon	There's a lonstanding jira for that too .... it required some server work.
[12:49]	Asha	You can't set a custom pivot the right way with any program Darien. You have to cheat with a workaround.
[12:49]	Darien Caldwell	well, someone made a point to IM me and say you can. Ctrl-A and then apply Local Rot scale
[12:49]	Darien Caldwell	but I confess I haven't actually tried it.
[12:49]	Gaia Clary	cant be. as far as i know, the pivot is recalculated during import to SL ...
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	interesting. Can see how that would be useful, not sure where it fits in the current list of priorities
[12:50]	Asha	Nope, the center will revert back to smack dab in the middle of the bounding box once uploaded.
[12:50]	Darien Caldwell	they were upset i told people you couldn't do it ^.^
[12:50]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	Darien .. .you have to move the bounding box via trickery ( hidden geometry ) in order to get an apparent custom pivot in sl
[12:50]	Darien Caldwell	that's what I thought.
[12:50]	Cain Maven	as it is, i have to make doors twice as big with the aid of extra geometry
[12:50]	Darien Caldwell	but she swore up and down Ctrl-A let you do it
[12:50]	Cain Maven	same with faucets and other particle sources
[12:50]	Al Supercharge	doesn't happen to sculpts
[12:50]	Asha	And the trick makes the bounding box bigger which can affect weights.
[12:50]	ÄlveKatt	You just need a small triangle in the opposite end, no?
[12:51]	Asha	Right Alve
[12:52]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	please give us nested linksets
[12:52]	Nyx Linden	next topic: With respect to #9, I've noticed that the error messages returned to people regarding materials are very cryptic. They're a scant 20-40 characters, and offer no real hints to the artist as to what's wrong with their model, and only possible reasons to a programmer (unless you happen to have the source code for the viewer handy). Is it possible that the error codes could be prefaced with a code for easy wiki look ups, or converted to human (read: artist) readable errors so the same problem doesn't crop up over and over in group chat? - Feynt Mistral 10:49, 5 March 2012 (PST)
[12:52]	Gaia Clary	my words since a year :(((
[12:53]	Vir Linden	We agree that the error messaging right now isn't very descriptive. Don't know how soon we will have a chance to work on it.
[12:53]	Gaia Clary	isnt that another area for open source contributions ... :)
[12:53]	Nyx Linden	absolutely!
[12:53]	Vir Linden	Exactly :-)
[12:54]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	Don't put an ampersand "&" in a material name you will never upload the model and the error message will give you no clue that the "and" sign is causing the problem
[12:54]	Nal	Does it help to change priorities for you if we get lots of votes and watches?
[12:54]	Ima Mechanique	Nal, nah LL doesn't look at votes ;-)
[12:55]	Ima Mechanique	but OS devs do tend to look at watches
[12:55]	Nyx Linden	backlog prioritization is a dark art that our product team takes care of, and is not well known by technical linden droids.
[12:55]	Nal	lol... its automagically then...
[12:55]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	meaning they draw straws from a hat Nyx? =x
[12:55]	Gaia Clary	btw i think that i am uploading all my rigged models twice by accident. i never remember that i have to go to the options tab to add the weights :)
[12:55]	ÄlveKatt	Do the product team Lindens ever come to these meetings?
[12:55]	Ima Mechanique	Nyx, youmean one of them gets to throw a dart into the stack?
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	so if any open source devs want to tackle some of the error messaging, please do!
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	we're almost out of time and have a bunch more topics, mind if I move on?
[12:56]	Asha	Yes please
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	next topic: What about adding a cellshade option for prims and Meshes? This should reduces the streaming cost as you tend to do it with double sculpties for sculpts with the outer one inside out and a whole extra set of outer triangles for Mesh objects with the face Normals pointing inwards. [Davido Chrome]
[12:56]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	eeek
[12:56]	Ossanha	:\
[12:56]	Ossanha	again with commas
[12:56]	Geenz Kitten	that would be a bit of a tricky one :O
[12:57]	Nyx Linden	cel shading really does require twice the geometry I'm afraid - its a cool effect but costly
[12:57]	Ossanha	can you not fake it with materials in and mesh?
[12:57]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	it's easy Nyx
[12:57]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	just use flat avatars
[12:57]	Nal	How is Loki doing his cell shaded stuff?
[12:57]	Darien Caldwell	either way, there's going to be double the faces
[12:57]	Raziels Lyric	How about all the security issues, how about LL being unable to lock certain ancient griefers off the grid? How about all those exploits that reach into the privacy of people on the grid, such as IP revealing via Voice Call?
[12:58]	Asha	You just double the geometry Nal and flip the normals on one copy.
[12:58]	ÄlveKatt	What about if it could be calculated Viewer side at least? That would save bandwidth.
[12:58]	Raziels Lyric	I'm just putting it out there, maybe fix the leaks before you take more on board
[12:58]	Nal	Thx Asha
[12:58]	Ossanha	i think its really 90s shell shading, can we not hace something a bit more up to date if were going to get some fancy new features :P
[12:58]	Asha	Welcome
[12:58]	ÄlveKatt	Asha, requires alot of fine tuning for objects with a lot of curvyness.
[12:59]	Nyx Linden	there are a lot of artistic decisions around how strong of an outline you want, etc, so its not quite that simple.
[12:59]	Asha	Yes, I know Alve. But, that is the basic concept of the technique.
[12:59]	Nyx Linden	for now it can be done, even if costly, so its not a huge priority
[12:59]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Now that Charlar is engaged elsewhere, have the Linden Realm tools beta testing plans been shelved, delayed, or will it still go ahead? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:59]	ÄlveKatt	Ok. The thuoght struck me as I am making a nmotorcyclw for My little Ponies.
[13:00]	ÄlveKatt	Agh, typos!
[13:00]	Ossanha	fuelled by unicorns tears
[13:00]	Nyx Linden	I don't have visibility into that project personally, so your guess is as good as mine for now.
[13:00]	Vivienne Daguerre	nods
[13:00]	ÄlveKatt	Ossanha, I thought more fermented Apple juice.
[13:00]	Vivienne Daguerre	I hope we hear something soon, I was excited about that
[13:01]	Ossanha	ponys riding motorcycles fuelled by cider
[13:01]	ÄlveKatt	Wait a sec, charlar disappears for who know what reason and the Beta test group is just off?
[13:01]	Asha	He didn't just "disappear".
[13:02]	Nal	Kelly is looking into LR tools... so may be hear more later this week
[13:02]	Nyx Linden	no, tiny robots just don't know the status of such efforts :P
[13:02]	Vivienne Daguerre	nods...
[13:02]	Nyx Linden	so next topic: Is there a forum to discuss problems and issues with pathfinding on the aditi grid? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[13:03]	Nal	I was looking for a forum section or even any posts... did find any
[13:03]	Ima Mechanique	I think the JIRA for any bugs
[13:03]	Nyx Linden	we're asking the team atm to let us know where feedback should be directed. I'll post a link in the transcript if we don't get it shortly
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre	thanks
[13:03]	Nal	:)
[13:04]	Ossanha	whens this pathfining malarky hit the grid
[13:04]	Vir Linden	This is being coordinated by lorca - should email him with questions.
[13:04]	Gaia Clary	so do i understand correct: This is the last meeting of this kind ?
[13:04]	Al Supercharge	gotta go: let me ask Don't we need a higher RenderVolumeLODfactor than 2.0 ? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3032?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Aall-tabpanel
[13:04]	Ima Mechanique	Osshana, no planned release yet, the stuff on aditi is alpha testing
[13:04]	Nyx Linden	we're overtime with two topics left, so pardon me if I speed through the last bits
[13:04]	Nal	k
[13:05]	Nyx Linden	next topic: Where can we turn for support regarding aditi issues? I changed my password to update my inventory. Now My inventory does not save from session to session, so any work I do is lost when I log out. [Vivienne Daguerre] -- Me too. I changed pw this weekend and I can't save from secession to secession either. Nalates Urriah
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	I don't know where to even file a jira on this. It is easily reproducable. Just change your password and log in on Aditi.
[13:05]	ÄlveKatt	Same here.
[13:06]	Vivienne Daguerre	I really need to be able to work on pathfinding on Aditi
[13:06]	Ossanha	surerly having a higher LOD negates the point in having an LOD in the first place
[13:06]	Al Supercharge	it applies equally to sculpts
[13:06]	Nal	I was glad I was using LSLEditor when I came back and all my stuff wasn't in inventory
[13:07]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	that _might_ be related to current Direct Delivery/Recieved items testing.
[13:07]	Ossanha	maybe make a jire to add a button to view models by people who are not really 3D modellers
[13:07]	Darien Caldwell	it has to be password related. I log into beta daily, no problems like that. But I haven't changed my password in years ;p
[13:07]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	the not savin gof inventroy on Adidit grid that is.
[13:08]	TheyCallMeDick Cheney	/me makes a note of Darien's lack of security awareness.
[13:08]	Nal	I was ok until I changed pw to update my ADITI inventory
[13:08]	Vivienne Daguerre	same here
[13:08]	Raziels Lyric	shouts: I dare you, I double dare you mother-shhhhh
[13:08]	Vivienne Daguerre	I needed to have some animals I had made i my aditi inventory to work with
[13:09]	Nyx Linden	please file a jira in the SVC project with the repro steps :)

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