Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-04-18
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
07:00 | Office Orb | mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com |
Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com | ||
Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com | ||
Wolfpup | hey Jonathan | |
Oz Linden | Hi everyone | |
Morgaine Dinova | I think we can objective about the new physics here, no need for the giggle factor. Make something else wobble if breasts are a problem. | |
How's it going Oz? | ||
07:01 | Oz Linden | now there's an interesting point to enter a conversation.... |
Morgaine Dinova | :P | |
Discrete Dreamscape | o.o | |
07:03 | Oz Linden | Looks like we have only one pretty easy looking issue in OPEN this morning, which I just ack'ed |
so our agenda is open .... | ||
07:05 | Discrete Dreamscape | Is this supposed to be limited to OPEN issues? o: |
Oz Linden | anything open source related is fair game | |
07:06 | Discrete Dreamscape | The Linux bug I reported a couple weeks back is a little bit goofier than I thought and could use some comments from.. anyone else who uses Linux. |
Oz Linden | got an issue id? | |
Discrete Dreamscape | STORM-1122, code review at | |
Office Orb | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1122
STORM-1122 Linux viewer sucks up file descriptors, stops loading content and crashes | |
Discrete Dreamscape | https://codereview.secondlife.com/r/245/ | |
The little change I made is not really a solution as it stands. | ||
07:07 | Oz Linden | it sounds like it's some improvement, though, no? |
Discrete Dreamscape | It is.. although it destroys Unicode support. | |
Kopile Hallard | / | |
Oz Linden | oh... that's not good | |
Boroondas would never let me hear the end of it | ||
07:08 | Kopile Hallard | if I could compile the viewer on linux I would give you feedback Discrete |
Discrete Dreamscape | On the other two platforms, it's fine for them not to search fallback lists, because they're generally counted on to have full unicode between the various fonts installed, and they're clearly listed in fonts.xml. | |
But on Linux, no such fonts are listed, I guess because there are no standard fonts to assume users have, or.. whatever. | ||
07:09 | Kopile Hallard | can never really assume what fonts someone will have, which is why web browsers specify a family and not a font |
07:10 | websites* | |
Discrete Dreamscape | There are three options as far as I see. 1) Someone fixes the really hair font fallback code, 2) A set of supporting fonts is determined to exist on most systems and added to fonts.xml, or 3) a set of fonts for this is inclued with the viewer. | |
Yeah.. | ||
07:11 | Kopile Hallard | a set of open source fonts included with the viewer would be safest imho, that way you can always be sure someone has those fonts |
Oz Linden | Would including fonts with the viewer really work, though? | |
Discrete Dreamscape | It would definitely work if they're defined in fonts.xml for Linux | |
Oz Linden | could we do it in a way that put them where the viewer would use them without messing with system fonts? | |
Discrete Dreamscape | The problem there, though, is finding the fonts and the fact that decent Unicode support is rather large. | |
07:12 | Kopile Hallard | also it adds the ability to ensure fonts render the same irrelevent of OS |
Oz Linden | making the downloads significantly larger is never an easy sell | |
Discrete Dreamscape | That's true. It would be ideal if size could be kept down while making unicode support universal. | |
Not everyone even has MS Arial Unicode, which is assumed on Windows. | ||
Morgaine Dinova | Would it work regardless of sizing? Remember that we have everything from smartphones to wall displays. | |
07:13 | Oz Linden | Even if we did include fonts, I would not want to do it for Mac or Windows |
Kopile Hallard | prehaps just enough to fit a certian standard of unicode, like utf16 or something | |
Discrete Dreamscape | I see | |
Kopile Hallard | why not for mac or windows? | |
Oz Linden | wishes we had smartphones, or even tablets | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Well, uh.. if your smartphone can run SL, somehow I doubt Unicode is your major concern. d; | |
Oz Linden | because we don't have a significant font problem there, so there's no motivation that justifies larger downloads | |
Discrete Dreamscape | nods. | |
07:14 | I don't know what guidelines, if any, exist for figuring out how much support is needed. | |
Kopile Hallard | guess, if you are happy with the msfonts | |
Discrete Dreamscape | But it would be nice to have it in there by default.. | |
07:15 | Morgaine Dinova | I would err on the side of "download less", rather than more. |
Kopile Hallard | I know jjacke speant a lot of time with imprudence trying to iron out font issues | |
Oz Linden | Have you tried to figure out why the viewer is trying to use so many fonts? | |
07:16 | why isn't this just a question of fixing the search? | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Oh yes, I talked it over with a friend.. apparently it makes a list of every possible fallback font it could want, then loads each of those for all possible style variations and size variations that the viewer uses, or something like that. | |
And the code is unfamiliar to me, or I would already have patched it. >: | ||
07:17 | Oz Linden | how many different fonts does the viewer really need? Mine only seems to be using one basic font in a couple of sizes, with bold and italic variations |
07:18 | Discrete Dreamscape | For everything except Unicode, the viewer already provides the DejaVu family, which is minimal and nice. For everything else, I would suspect 5 or less on top of that, loaded a few times over for their variations. |
Wolfpup | Oz that sound like it might be an issue in the font generation on linuix systems similar to the issue we had when switching to then new build system where the fons were rendered the wronr size | |
Kopile Hallard | pretty sure most distributions of linux have dajavu | |
07:19 | Oz Linden | Maybe the thing to do is to throw out the fallback searching altogether, and if the font specified in fonts.xml is not found, pop up a font selector and make the user choose from those on the system that have the right combination of properties. |
Discrete Dreamscape | o.0 | |
I can't say I'd be very partial to doing that.. d; | ||
07:20 | Kopile Hallard | a lot of users know nothing about fonts |
Wolfpup | or sugest the user get the font | |
and include instruction on how to get them | ||
Morgaine Dinova | grep var.cache.fontconfig | wc -l
19 | |
Kopile Hallard | or wgets the font for the user and uses it? | |
Oz Linden | you don't have to know much about fonts to pick from a list of lines that say "The quick brown fox...." | |
Discrete Dreamscape | That's getting unfortunately close to the stuff I did in Emerald.. 'hey, download this thing here,' and it was always not fun. | |
07:21 | Morgaine Dinova | Ie. Impy has file descriptors to 19 font files open. |
Kopile Hallard | yes you do when talking about unicode | |
Oz Linden | I'd bet there's an existing font picker widget out there somewhere that we could incorporate | |
Discrete Dreamscape | egrep -o '[^ ]*font[^ ]*' | sort | uniq -c | less | |
07:22 | Morgaine Dinova | I specifically wanted the ones in font cache though |
Discrete Dreamscape | oic! | |
07:23 | Morgaine Dinova | egrep -o '[^ ]*font[^ ]*' | sort | uniq -c | wc -l
53 |
Discrete Dreamscape | Well.. since I don't have any power over what is included with the viewer, nor a guideline for what kind of support Linden Lab wants, I'll try fixing the fallback code still.. | |
That's not bad Morgaine. | ||
07:24 | That's what I have right now too, with zero Unicode support. | |
Kopile Hallard | "the quick brown fox" does not show me what Japanese Characters render as, for example. | |
Oz Linden | I can't imagine that there's any good reason to open that many files and keep them open.... I'd make fixing that your central idea :-) | |
Discrete Dreamscape | >_< | |
07:25 | I'll try! I wish I had more of a clue what it's doing. | |
Oz Linden | so you make or find a better picker that let's you specify your own test line | |
Have you looked at 'hg blame' to see who wrote it? | ||
07:26 | Discrete Dreamscape | I think it's pretty ancient.. that's a good idea; I'll try finding it. |
Wolfpup | Kanji can use one character for many words | |
07:27 | Oz Linden | If you need help tracking down the author, let me know... I may have address data you won't |
Discrete Dreamscape | Cool, much appreciated. | |
oobscure | Oz: I did lot of testing about VWR-25506 in the last days and got some interesting results. Could you give it a look? I'd need to know if ...should I repeat the tests I did - or should I consider different scenarios? for example, a different (higher? lower?...) number of items | |
Office Orb | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25506
VWR-25506 Investigate restrictions on storing and exchanging inventory items within prims and notecards | |
Wolfpup | fr instance here is the kanji for the quick brown fox >動きの速い茶色のキツネ | |
07:28 | Oz Linden | I saw your notes oo.. |
Kopile Hallard | chuckles, unfortunately that doesn't show all the thousand possibilities of kunji though | |
07:31 | Oz Linden | I'm going to ask for some Lindens to have a look at your findings, oobscure |
Wolfpup | oz in reference to open-52 im going to make change sets for each of the files to be deleted so that if they need to be reinstated later the proper change set can just be reveresed | |
Office Orb | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-52
OPEN-52 Superfluous source files | |
Oz Linden | good idea | |
07:32 | oobscure | ok. so I'll wait and no more testing until I hear news. |
Oz Linden | when you've got a repo set up, let me know and I'll run a test TeamCity build | |
Wolfpup | well i have the base repository now | |
just nothing commited to it yet | ||
07:33 | Oz Linden | good |
Wolfpup | hav not had the time since i set up the repository | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Seems like the font thing was wirtten by Moss, with small updates by CG and Tofu.. showed up in 3e2f24235be3 | |
07:34 | Wolfpup | im going to use notepad++'s search in files feature to find all references to each of the files as i delet it |
Discrete Dreamscape | Or merged by Moss, I guess. | |
Jonathan | Wolfpup, you will have to delete #include lines that reference .h files you eliminate | |
07:35 | Wolfpup | i know and that is why im going to use the search funcetion in notepad++ to help with this |
it will make it quicker | ||
Oz Linden | I don't know if he's around much - try 'Tofu Buzzard' in-world | |
07:36 | Discrete Dreamscape | nods. |
Wolfpup | instead of having to multiple build runs for each file | |
Oz Linden | Moss == Tofu | |
07:37 | Discrete Dreamscape | Ahhh |
Wolfpup | Oz i have a question for you in reference to open-9 | |
Office Orb | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-9
OPEN-9 Generate Logs in Opensource Envrionment on Windows | |
Oz Linden | shoot, Wolfpup | |
07:38 | Wolfpup | when you do your local build it is only on mac right? |
Oz Linden | yes, I don't have a windows dev box at the moment | |
Wolfpup | do you keep a record of any particular build run? | |
07:39 | Oz Linden | don't know what you mean... windows build logs? |
Wolfpup | or just a build log in general that shows the progress of the build | |
Jonathan | Wolfpup, are you talking about having your autobuild compile go to both the screen and to a file? | |
07:40 | Wolfpup | yes |
Jonathan | I think you already have a workaround for that, or you could use the IDE. | |
Wolfpup | C:\cygwin\bin\tee <build log name> to the end of the cmd line to do that | |
07:41 | Discrete Dreamscape | tee is a wonderful tool. ;D |
Wolfpup | but it would be nice and easier if that could be done automaticaly and then each dev would have it avail | |
07:42 | Oz Linden | you mean have the build by default create a log file of the command outputs? |
Wolfpup | both internaly to LL for local build and externaly for OS devs | |
and then compilers output | ||
Jonathan | Oz, that is what the IDE does -- wolfpup is used to what vs2005 did automatically | |
07:43 | Oz Linden | I certainly would not want that in my builds.... |
terminal scrollback is all I need as a rule | ||
Wolfpup | it is a seperat file that could be stored else where like the build tree and not with the sorce its self | |
07:44 | but how far back can you scroll? | |
Jonathan | wolfpup, you can adjust the scrollback buffer | |
Wolfpup | currently the output from a windows build is nearly 30K lines of text | |
07:45 | Jonathan | dunno if you can adjust it that much though |
Oz Linden | I have mine set to infinite (which is of course limited to the size of my disk, but I don't have to manage it) | |
Wolfpup | yes you can but it ends up eating memory | |
07:46 | and im trying to think of those like me with limited memory | |
Oz Linden | that sounds like a perfect thing to build an alias or shell wrapper function for.... | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Windows is verbose!.. I have 10k in my scrollback on Linux and I don't fill it.. | |
Jonathan | Oz, is there any update on that build farm you were getting set up that would let us send up a repo to be compiled? | |
07:47 | Oz Linden | We're setting up the router for it this week |
Wolfpup | Oz that was what i was thinking as make it an option as part of the autobuild system | |
Morgaine Dinova | Discrete: we seem to do things the same way. :-) All my building is done though a capture script too. | |
Kopile Hallard | may I point out how ironic it is that the majority of people compiling v2 are using a non opensource os | |
Jonathan | so, it will be available in the near future? (woo hoo) | |
Kopile Hallard | do you just redirect output morgaine? | |
Oz Linden | why is that ironic? most of the people using it are on non-open os'es too | |
07:48 | Kopile Hallard | depends what you mean by use and people |
Discrete Dreamscape | Linux is a pain in the ass. I just know how to avoid all the problems with it. I know a lot of my friends can't use it for various reasons. d: | |
Morgaine Dinova | Kopi: like Discrete, it's tee'd | |
Kopile Hallard | the majority of web servers are unix based | |
Wolfpup | \o/ OS dev build farm | |
07:49 | Oz Linden | As big a fan of Linux as I am, it's not even close to ready for mass market level ease of use for non-geeks |
Morgaine Dinova | Lots of things are not ideal in Linux, and one shouldn't be a fanboi. That's best left to Mac and Windows faithful. :-) | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Yep. >: | |
Kopile Hallard | lol | |
07:50 | Wolfpup | i 'cut my teeth' on linux so to speak |
Oz Linden | I'm going to make some progress on the build farm this week; at the very least the network I need set up for the Mac build agents will be installed | |
Morgaine Dinova | From criticism comes progress, From fanboiism comes slavery to a master and stagnation to suit business interests. | |
07:51 | Discrete Dreamscape | Will the scripts and whatnot that operate builds be open source? I'm curious to know how you guys will do it. d; |
Oz Linden | I don't know when it'll be ready for trials, though... there are many moving parts, and some of the folks I'll need help from to finish setting it all up are pretty busy these days | |
They are open now | ||
Wolfpup | Discrete the autobuild system is OS | |
07:52 | Discrete Dreamscape | Autobuild is, but.. wait, is there some stuff I'm missing? o.o |
Oz Linden | bitbucket.org/lindenlab/buildscripts | |
Discrete Dreamscape | I have and use autobuild, but.. Ahhhh | |
I see | ||
Wolfpup | all you have to do is get the autobuild repository and then run setup install and your good to go | |
Jonathan | autobuild is used in the build farm too | |
Oz Linden | those are the scripts used by our TeamCity builds | |
Jonathan | no need to even run setup install -- just access it in the bin directory | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Nifty! | |
07:53 | Oz Linden | once the build system is set up, CG is going to do an in-world class for us on it |
Discrete Dreamscape | Awesome. | |
Jonathan | will there be some web interface where we point it to a repo we want compiled? | |
Morgaine Dinova | That's cool Oz. CG++ | |
Kopile Hallard | D | |
Discrete Dreamscape | Autobuild in general confuses the crap out of me right now, it's kinda clunky IMO. | |
Oz Linden | Yes... it will be an instance of TeamCity | |
07:54 | it's pretty good stuff | |
Kopile Hallard | build.sh is clunky for sure | |
but seems like it could do a lot | ||
Oz Linden | setting up a viewer build takes a little doing, but once you get used to it it's not bad | |
Discrete Dreamscape | nods. | |
Kopile Hallard | will these 'classes' cover 64bit builds? | |
Oz Linden | and you get a lot for it | |
07:55 | Jonathan | I have had to make a number of hackish changes to get autobuild+vs2010 express to work |
Discrete Dreamscape | I totally gave up on 64 bit before.. After spending like 2 hours compiling llqtwebkit once to end up with no working media.. meh. | |
07:56 | 5 minutes! I've gotta run, see yas! | |
Morgaine Dinova | Giving up after 2 hours is a low threshold. :P Sympathies :-) | |
Kopile Hallard | you could probably pull a copy of llqtwebkit from kokua | |
Discrete Dreamscape | d; | |
Morgaine Dinova | Cya Discrete | |
07:57 | Kopile Hallard | already offline :/ |
Oz Linden | The build farm will not be set up for 64 bit builds | |
Jonathan | When I set up to compile last year it took me 3 tries and I don't know how many days to finally get things right, so don't give up too easily | |
Oz Linden | but it's possible to do them now by hand | |
I'm going to work on the wiki docs on that some more | ||
Kopile Hallard | thanks | |
Oz Linden | basically you'll have to download and build local packages for each of the dependencies | |
Wolfpup | i hope he dose the class when i can be around | |
07:58 | Kopile Hallard | so a standalone build? |
Oz Linden | I'm going to get Torley to record it (or teach me how to record IW video,perhaps) | |
Morgaine Dinova | It's always been possible to do 64-bit builds, right back to when the viewer was released as open source. And lots of people are doing so (I used to too). So why is the company shying away from actually releasing 64-bit? | |
Oz Linden | no... standalone is different and harder | |
Kopile Hallard | ah | |
oobscure | GLC for taking video on SL/Linux works fine. lt me know if you need help with that | |
Also...Oz, I saw you reported problems with Favorites in Login screen -- STORM-1145 -- is that fixed now for you? because on my Linux installation, it keeps happening. But Seth can't reproduce my steps. I wonder if there's something wrong in my system | ||
Office Orb | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1145
STORM-1145 Changes to Favorites are not reflected on the login locations menu | |
Wolfpup | Kopile not realy you can use the file:/// method to point to your new packages once they are made | |
Jonathan | Oz, please get someone to record that class -- having that for on-demand viewing might be helpful | |
07:59 | Oz Linden | when you build a library with autobuilld, you get a package (basically a tarball) |
Kopile Hallard | heh? | |
Oz Linden | that package can then be used as an input to any other autobuild, without installing it on the system | |
Kopile Hallard | ahh cool | |
08:00 | Office Orb | Your timer has expired! |
Oz Linden | so if you build each of the dependencies once, you should then be able to build viewers using them | |
Kopile Hallard | cool | |
thanks | ||
Wolfpup | Kopile i use the file url method for fmod one i made the needed package | |
Morgaine Dinova | Back in Robla's days, we even used to discuss what was needed to get 64-bit releases on the road with Philip present at the meetings. Dunno why it's all regressed. | |
Oz Linden | it should be slightly easier than it is, but it's not nearly as hard as getting all the dependencies installed on an arbitrary linux distro | |
08:01 | Jonathan | Would there be any advantage in having a 64 bit windows version? |
Kopile Hallard | RAM | |
Morgaine Dinova | ram | |
:P | ||
Jonathan | That might be the driving force for a general conversion to 64 bit | |
Wolfpup | not realy Jonathan as windows automatacily handles the 64/32 transition | |
Oz Linden | It's just a priority/cost thing | |
08:02 | eventually it will happen, but don't ask me when eventually is :-) | |
I've got to go folks.... thanks for stopping by | ||
Office Orb | End transcription |