Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.07.17
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List of Speakers
| Acheron Gloom | Andrew Linden | Baker Linden |
| Darian Rau | Hollowmengitus Yifu | Kelly Linden |
| Liisa Runo | MartinRJ | MB Robonaught |
| Motor Loon | Nalates Urriah | Nathan Forder |
| Qie Niangao | Rex Cronon | Simon Linden |
| Stickman | Vladi Hazelnut | Yuzuru Jewell |
Transcript
[12:02] Stickman: The age old rule: Never show up on time to your own party.
[12:02] Hollowmengitus Yifu: Simon, can I have that dialation chart?
[12:02] Motor Loon: Good to see you're too busy to have spare time to fix your avatar Kelly
[12:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:02] Simon Linden: I didn't make it, unfortunately
[12:02] Andrew Linden: wow, I wonder what's going on right now
[12:03] MartinRJ: hello all
[12:03] Hollowmengitus Yifu: aw
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:03] Stickman: Someone's drawing parabolic curves on the graph, that's what's happening.
[12:03] Kelly Linden: I think this avatar looks like my other avatar is walking on hands and knees in a really teeny costume. I think it is hilarious.
[12:03] Baker Linden: hi everyone
[12:03] Simon Linden: Lots of rezzing, I think
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi baker
[12:03] Acheron Gloom: Earlier I had some scripts rezzed that were mildly resource intensive, but not too bad, and the sim crashed. It was odd.
[12:03] Acheron Gloom: I was just waiting around before the meeting.
[12:04] Acheron Gloom: And its a bit laggy now, not sure what it is.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I wonder what channel we're on here in Denby...
[12:06] Hollowmengitus Yifu: That wasn't Acheron, lol
[12:06] Yuzuru Jewell: Oh Region was downed..
[12:07] Motor Loon: wunderbar
[12:07] Rex Cronon: did sim crash, or was just me?
[12:07] Motor Loon: sim
[12:07] Acheron Gloom: Sim
[12:07] Andrew Linden: It appears that this region was shutdown, not crashed.
[12:07] Acheron Gloom: Interesting
[12:07] Liisa Runo: i crashed too
[12:07] Hollowmengitus Yifu: weird
[12:07] Rex Cronon: shutdown? wow. it got a mind of its own now?
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: I was logged out...
[12:07] Motor Loon: Forced IDLE mode haha
[12:08] Simon Linden: The grid reached self-awareness several years ago, Rex
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Well, it wasn't from a rolling restart. Odd.
[12:08] Stickman: Yes, that was totally a region idle bug. I knew that feature was going to doom us all!
[12:08] Rex Cronon: right simon:)
[12:08] Motor Loon: It was probably Kelly trying to be funny
[12:08] Qie Niangao: such a short step from self-aware to self-loathing :p
[12:08] Acheron Gloom: Naw
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Interestingly, this region actually crashed about 45 minutes ago, prior to this meeting.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Perhaps I'll dig into the callstack to see why.
[12:09] Rex Cronon: the aticipation killed it?
[12:09] Andrew Linden: We're running on the main channel here "Second Life Server"
[12:09] Simon Linden: This region rarely crashes, since it doesn't get a lot of traffic outside of the user group that I know of. Maybe there are wild parties late at night
[12:09] Motor Loon: probably with todays roll out?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: Ok so news...
[12:10] Rex Cronon: the rolling restarts r bugged?
[12:10] Andrew Linden: I was going to look into some corrupt inventory problems in my spare time
[12:10] Andrew Linden: but I only got one contact about it (probably someone referred by Ardy?)
[12:10] Andrew Linden: and I seem to have lost their name...
[12:11] Andrew Linden: it was via IM and I don't seem to have written it down
[12:11] MartinRJ: regexp + logfile :)
[12:11] Andrew Linden: so if anyone here has corrupt inventory, or knows of someon, have them send me an email or IM
[12:11] Andrew Linden: and I"ll try to actually note their name down this time
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'll also ask our internal #support channel to let me know if they get reports of broken inventory that I can check on.
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Yeah, you're right MartinRJ, I can find the logfile...
[12:12] Andrew Linden: since I'm on Windows here it just didn't occur to me...
[12:13] Rex Cronon: how many people with corrupt inventories do u need?
[12:13] Andrew Linden: but... I think I was connected via my linux machine last Friday, so I need to look there
[12:13] Andrew Linden: just a few Rex, three to five
[12:13] Rex Cronon: oh. ok
[12:14] Andrew Linden: I would like to get a quick glimpse at the sorts of inventory problems that people have
[12:14] Andrew Linden: so I can test a fixed script against those inventories (copied to aditi first)
[12:14] Andrew Linden: and as a bonus... if it looks like my script is working I'll fix their inventories once I'm confident I can do it.
[12:15] Baker Linden: After some testing and optimizing, I've determined I need to move a large group query off the dataserver, and essentially do an asynchronous query. I've been having issues reliably getting data back from the sql command; this should fix that issue. Additionally, it won't cause the server to be blocked while performing the query.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: That's all the news for me. My main work is to review how the server's interestlist works and try to do some benchmark testing on it.
[12:15] MartinRJ: I think it was Warthog Jun - but I'm not sure.
[12:15] MartinRJ: (checked my chatlog)
[12:15] Andrew Linden: So that once we start fixing it we can verify that our fixes are actually helping.
[12:16] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, that was a previous inventory problem. Warthog was asking for help for a friend.
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Their inventory was already fixed, but I did it via my CLI (command line interface) tool.
[12:16] MartinRJ: ah ok, then probably I've missed that meeting.
[12:16] MartinRJ: nice: )
[12:16] Andrew Linden: There is a second tool (triggered by some web interfaces) that needs to also be fixed.
[12:17] Andrew Linden: fin
[12:17] Andrew Linden: If anyone else has news, go ahead.
[12:17] Simon Linden: The release info for this week is at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-07-16/td-p/1602939
[12:18] Simon Linden: The roll this morning seemed to go OK, but they are taking longer than before due to the new way things are updated
[12:18] Motor Loon: dont look like too much new this week
[12:19] Motor Loon: considering the news on mainchannel is not activated yet
[12:19] Nalates Urriah: How long is a region down for the roll?
[12:19] Simon Linden: No, not much new. Plans for next week are still up in the air, but I'd put my money on Bluesteel getting promoted
[12:19] MB Robonaught: will pathfinder go main next week?
[12:19] Simon Linden: Nal - I'm not sure. I know that was an issue a few weeks ago, but I think there was some work to shorten the down time
[12:20] Andrew Linden: No MB, I don't think so.
[12:20] Vladi Hazelnut: so no eta or scheduled launch date then?
[12:21] Simon Linden: Nothing solid, Vladi. The viewer update is also needed
[12:21] Simon Linden: For myself, I took a little detour yesterday and implemented a mini-feature I've always wanted -- pasting LSL function signatures in the script editor
[12:21] MB Robonaught: that gives us more time whew lol
[12:21] Vladi Hazelnut: so they are still playing with the code then?
[12:21] Nalates Urriah: function signatures ?
[12:21] Rex Cronon: function signature? what is that?
[12:22] Simon Linden: It works like this ... type out the LSL function you want, double click it, wait for the tooltip, press tab, and you get the first line of the tooltip
[12:22] Nathan Forder: well that will make it faster imo
[12:22] Rex Cronon: oh. to speedup coding
[12:23] Vladi Hazelnut: oh, I have a question while I am here, maybe someone can help me with it.
[12:23] Simon Linden: so you can just type "listen" and quickly get the full listen( .... ) function with the parameters
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Vladi, there is an approximate ETA for the pathfinding stuff... as soon as it gets its promotion turn after RC.
[12:23] Vladi Hazelnut: ah ok
[12:23] Andrew Linden: Which means... maybe two to three weeks if everything goes well.
[12:24] Andrew Linden: We are fixing a few things in that channel during RC.
[12:24] Vladi Hazelnut: ok, that aside I having a strange issue.
[12:24] MB Robonaught: reason we ask is you're in for no end of drama that isn't your fault
[12:24] Simon Linden: That's all my news
[12:24] Andrew Linden: I think we've got three little bug fixes that we hope to get out this week for the pathfinding RC (Magnum channel)P
[12:24] Vladi Hazelnut: you know how in the new edit menu you have features, where you can set gravity and friction and what not?
[12:24] Vladi Hazelnut: for some reason they don't take for me.
[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: I have to change them like 20 times.
[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: I change them, click edit and its back to where it was.
[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: but if I give mb rights and she changes it, it sticks.
[12:25] Simon Linden: but it will eventually work?
[12:25] Andrew Linden: Vladi, yeah that sounds like a bug.
[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: eventually
[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: pretty annoying though lol
[12:26] Vladi Hazelnut: and it just seems to be me.
[12:26] Vladi Hazelnut: and it doesn't matter what viewer.
[12:26] Andrew Linden: If it is actually possible to change those params then the viewer UI should reflect that, and changes should take effect at the server.
[12:26] Vladi Hazelnut: even does it on the beta grid.
[12:26] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try to repro that problem later today.
[12:27] Simon Linden: There are some areas where the viewer UI can get mixed up since it relies on a message going to the server and back, but those are often obviously worse on slow connections
[12:27] Vladi Hazelnut: could it be an issue with my computer?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: No Vladi, I don't see how it could be your computer.
[12:27] Vladi Hazelnut: whew lol
[12:27] Andrew Linden: If you make a change via the UI and then submit, and the info in the UI actually reverts...
[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: yes, that is exactly what it does.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: then that means that the server is probably getting the message, and sending back info negating the changes your viewer thinks it made.
[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: I could video it if you want so you can see exactly what happens.
[12:28] MartinRJ: may I ask where you are located at, Vladi??
[12:28] Andrew Linden: So it sounds like the server is rejecting your change.
[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: it doesn't matter where I am at.
[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: let me try it here real quick.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: Yeah, he location may matter. What is the name of the region where you were trying it?
[12:29] Simon Linden: Is your network connection pretty good?
[12:29] MartinRJ: I mean do you live in Europe or the USA
[12:29] Vladi Hazelnut: usa, michigan
[12:29] MB Robonaught: I use the same viewer and don't hve his problem and i can change his settings
[12:29] MartinRJ: there's a similar issue with setting permissions
[12:29] MartinRJ: if you have a high latency
[12:29] Vladi Hazelnut: I have a good connection
[12:29] MB Robonaught: could it be account related?
[12:29] MartinRJ: so people in Europe have to set permissions twice, all the time
[12:30] Motor Loon: I dont have the problem, and I'm in europe
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Hrm... the per-object gravity and friction feature was part of the mesh project, delivered about a year ago.
[12:30] Vladi Hazelnut: ok, it works here lol
[12:30] MartinRJ: that's jira.secondlife.com/browse/vwr-28742
[12:30] Simon Linden: The permissions settings are one of those that relies on a message going to the simulator and back
[12:30] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28742
[#VWR-28742] Permissions (modify/copy) uncheck themselves
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Vladi Hazelnut: maybe it is server related somehow
[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: it was doing it on the pathfinding sandbox 3
[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: and on the beta grid where you have the pathfinding meetings
[12:31] Andrew Linden: ok that is helpful, I'll test there later today
[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: And on our sim.
[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: what is the actual name mb lol
[12:31] MartinRJ: motor I added a video to that jira that demonstrates the bug
[12:31] Motor Loon: yeah?`
[12:32] Vladi Hazelnut: and our sim that is recreated on the beta grid for testing.
[12:32] Andrew Linden: whose name is... ?
[12:32] Hollowmengitus Yifu: Protip: Use the Places button, view teleport history, find sim.
[12:33] MB Robonaught: who is that question to Andrew?
[12:33] Motor Loon: not getting that problem at all (on Firestorm) Martin
[12:33] MartinRJ: I think that doesn't count, Motor
[12:33] MartinRJ: :D
[12:33] Vladi Hazelnut: i don't have that option on this viewer lol
[12:33] Andrew Linden: That question was for Vladi, who said there is a pathfinding region on aditi, cloned from agni.
[12:34] Vladi Hazelnut: that is why I asked mb lol
[12:34] Vladi Hazelnut: its her sim
[12:34] MB Robonaught: Kustom Klasssics HQ
[12:34] Andrew Linden: ok thanks.
[12:34] Vladi Hazelnut: I can't remember stuff like that.
[12:35] Vladi Hazelnut: I am messed up in the head, big shock in sl lol.
[12:35] MartinRJ: vladi you should always test issues with the official viewer first, if you're not 100% sure that it's not viewer-related
[12:35] Vladi Hazelnut: I do
[12:35] MartinRJ: before reporting them as bugs
[12:35] Vladi Hazelnut: I actually test viewers as a hobby
[12:36] Vladi Hazelnut: I just tested 13 viewers last week.
[12:36] Simon Linden: wow
[12:36] Motor Loon: hobby... I mostly just watch porn
[12:36] Vladi Hazelnut: and for me the sl viewer has the best frame rates.
[12:36] Nathan Forder ears perk
[12:36] Vladi Hazelnut: just not the features I need.
[12:36] Nathan Forder: mmm porn lol
[12:37] Simon Linden: uh, let's stick with lag and such for today
[12:37] Vladi Hazelnut: I gotta have the local bitmap browser or i will die lol
[12:37] Andrew Linden: what is the "local bitmap browser" ?
[12:38] Vladi Hazelnut: it lest you upload a texture and apply it, and it updates when the texture changes on your comptuer.
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Ah right, the try-before-upload feature.
[12:38] MB Robonaught: lag has been normal the last couple weeks but the pathfinder sandboxes were pretty bad
[12:38] Vladi Hazelnut: so you can make changes to texture, save it and instantly see it in sl.
[12:38] Vladi Hazelnut: but only you can see it.
[12:39] Vladi Hazelnut: to everyone else its grey
[12:39] Andrew Linden: MB, you're experiencing higher than normal lag on the pathfinding channel?
[12:39] Andrew Linden: What regions?
[12:40] Vladi Hazelnut: we were on the magnum server and when pathfinding came out our sim had horrible lag.
[12:40] MB Robonaught: yes and region crossing between the sandboxes is horrid....across the region rubber banding
[12:40] Andrew Linden: The pathfinding channel is the "Second Life RC Magnum" channel.
[12:40] Andrew Linden: Ah, during region crossings.
[12:41] MB Robonaught: non region crossing both FPS's were around 41 average
[12:42] Rex Cronon: andrew, having 2 favorites folders is it considered inventory corruption?
[12:42] Andrew Linden: I made a note. I'll see if I can look for a global FPS shift on the Magnum channel from pathfinding.
[12:42] MB Robonaught: ok
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Rex, yeah that would be inventory corruption.,
[12:43] MB Robonaught: Im not complaining just passing our test findings along
[12:44] Andrew Linden: No worries, that is one of the things we're hoping to get out of these user group meetings... feedback and anecdotes about problems noticed around the grid.
[12:45] MB Robonaught: we're test happy lol
[12:45] Nathan Forder: tell me about it
[12:45] Nathan Forder: =D
[12:46] Vladi Hazelnut: I know when we had the pathfinding code on our sim and having problems Flalcon linden came and did some testes.
[12:46] Vladi Hazelnut: he spent about an hour there.
[12:46] MB Robonaught: is there more detailed information on what exactly is different between pathfinder and the old version such as changes for volumedectect?
[12:47] MB Robonaught: sure wuld help our debugging process out if there were
[12:47] Vladi Hazelnut: yes we noticed an odd glitch with the cars last night.
[12:47] Vladi Hazelnut: And when I say We and Ours I am referring to MB, incase you were confused lol.
[12:48] Andrew Linden: There have been some changes around VolumeDetect, I think. But I don't have that list in my head right now, and don't know if it is well documented yet.
[12:48] Andrew Linden: Info like that should be on the public release notes.
[12:48] MB Robonaught: it's not clear on what types of changes
[12:48] Andrew Linden: I'll have to look them over and consule with some other Linden's who know the state of known bugs/changes.
[12:48] MB Robonaught: just says it was changed
[12:49] MB Robonaught: more documentation on projects sure would help us out
[12:49] MB Robonaught: so we can adapt ahead of time to changes
[12:50] MB Robonaught: and help give input
[12:50] MB Robonaught: we all want to help too
[12:51] Andrew Linden: Right.
[12:52] Vladi Hazelnut: is there anything specific you would like tested? I am good at breaking things lol.
[12:52] MB Robonaught: if any testing is needed for vehicles just ask we'll be glad to try to break things for you lol
[12:52] Vladi Hazelnut: I can't script though so not much help there.
[12:52] Andrew Linden: Some vehicles have broken in the pathfinding RC.
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Those that we examined last week all had very strange design issues that made them very susceptible to breakage.
[12:53] Yuzuru Jewell: My friends are testing vehicles on PF Sim..
[12:53] MB Robonaught: yes Andrew we with the help of falcon developed a fix though bizarre it works
[12:53] Andrew Linden: The main thing that changed for vehicles in the pathfinding code is that the terrain no longer collides like a "heightfield" (a 2D function of heights)
[12:53] MB Robonaught: it required design and scripting changes
[12:54] Andrew Linden: but now collides like a "mesh" (a list of triangles)
[12:54] Vladi Hazelnut: race cars work a bit different than regular sl vehicles. And everyone is very secretive of how their cars are scripted. so it hard to compare notes.
[12:54] MB Robonaught: the cars are also losing the vehicle deffintions as well
[12:54] Andrew Linden: the main difference between those two is that the heightfield only collides on one side, and it is relatively simple to do penetration resolution when objects embed the heightfield
[12:54] Yuzuru Jewell: more bump on seam of road.
[12:54] Andrew Linden: but mesh triangles collide on both sides, top and bottom
[12:55] MB Robonaught: we have to add two definitions for them to operate
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Andrew Linden: so if you have a vehicle that has lots of triangles on it (meshy vehicle, or concave prims) instead of simpler shapes such as boxes, perfect spheres
[12:55] MB Robonaught: right Andrew
[12:56] Andrew Linden: then when the vehicle penetrates the mesh the resolution code that tries to separate them can get confused
[12:56] Andrew Linden: and as a result the vehicl can "snag" on the terrain
[12:56] Andrew Linden: so the vehicles we noticed that had problems were very strange...
[12:56] Vladi Hazelnut: it seems high prim no attach vehicles have the most problems.
[12:56] Andrew Linden: their collision shapes were very thin boxes, very low to the ground
[12:56] Vladi Hazelnut: But those are the ones that sell the best lol.
[12:56] Andrew Linden: and one of the vehicles had heavy force pushing it down
[12:56] Vladi Hazelnut: yep, that was ours lol
[12:57] Andrew Linden: and the colliding box was concave
[12:57] MB Robonaught: that is for race cars Andrew
[12:57] Andrew Linden: hence it was a collection of triangles
[12:57] Andrew Linden: ok
[12:57] Nathan Forder: sometimes thay are flying cars lol
[12:57] Vladi Hazelnut: most of the drag cars use a flat base the cars ride on, rather than the wheels.
[12:57] MB Robonaught: we have a fix for that issue but only we have adapted the rest haven't tried
[12:58] Andrew Linden: There is a fundamental problem with ground vehicles in Second Life...
[12:58] Andrew Linden: They actually don't have wheels per-se
[12:58] Andrew Linden: but are colliding objects that kinda scrape along the surface of the ground or road
[12:58] Vladi Hazelnut: right
[12:58] Andrew Linden: so they rely very much on collisions to move correctly
[12:58] Andrew Linden: however...
[12:58] MB Robonaught: race cars are extremely complicated in design
[12:59] Andrew Linden: whenever the physics engine is updated the _details_ of how collisions are computed, or the results thereof
[12:59] Andrew Linden: can change subtly
[12:59] Vladi Hazelnut: yes, we have to adapt our cars every time you change the physcs engine.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: and as a result, ground vehicles in SL are very sensitive to changes in the physics engine details
[12:59] Vladi Hazelnut: so stop! lol
[13:00] Andrew Linden: I should mention that I wrote the vehicle code for SL, way back in 2003
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] MB Robonaught: on the path findinder regions using llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION,setpos]); removes the vehicle deffinition
[13:00] Rex Cronon: sadly that means each time havok changes the vehicles need to be updated. that is a lot of work for those that sell/make vehicles:(
[13:00] Andrew Linden: and at that time I didn't know or suspect this sensitive dependency on the physics engine
[13:01] MB Robonaught: *note the above is to return the car to the start line*
[13:01] Andrew Linden: but if I were to do vehicles again, I'd try to separate ground from air vehicles, featurewise anyway
[13:01] Hollowmengitus Yifu: Of course.
[13:02] Vladi Hazelnut: We keep trying to tell racers to keep in mind they are playing a game inside a game that wasn't meant to be played.
[13:02] Vladi Hazelnut: sl was not made for drag racing in any means.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Well... if we stop ugrading the physics engine then we lose the ability to fix other things, and the ability to add some new features to SL
[13:02] Motor Loon: very true Vladi
[13:02] MB Robonaught: especially what our customers expect out of our cars vladi
[13:02] Vladi Hazelnut: yes I was just joking with you.
[13:03] MB Robonaught: the upgrades are sorely needed but more data on changes would sure help
[13:03] Vladi Hazelnut: this is no different than any other technology based business, you have to adapt with the changing times and technology. or be left behind.
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Yup.
[13:03] MB Robonaught: we're kinda flying blind upgrading our stuff
[13:03] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try to take a look at the release notes and see if I or someone else can update them.
[13:03] Motor Loon: Personally I'd expect to have to update some stuff now and then... it's no different that making racecars in RL... rules change in the sport - and the car makers must adapt, new tires are invented and perhaps the cars steering needs to be adjusted...
[13:04] MB Robonaught: thanks Andrew
[13:04] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:04] Nathan Forder: the down time would cripple us thats the real problem isnt it MB ?
[13:04] Stickman: Thanks for being here!
[13:04] Vladi Hazelnut: right motor
[13:04] MB Robonaught: I have no prob doing updates as long as I know what to upgrade lol
[13:04] Vladi Hazelnut: sort of like if they repave the track.
[13:04] Vladi Hazelnut: you have to re tune the whole car.
[13:04] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[13:04] MB Robonaught: most of the down time nathan was being unclear what had changed
[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[13:05] MB Robonaught: thanks very much :))
[13:05] Nathan Forder: yes thanks for the info
[13:05] Andrew Linden: Well, pathfinding was in beta for months, and in pre-RC on agni for a while.
[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:05] Qie Niangao: Thanks all, have fun!
[13:05] MB Robonaught: pathfinder is awesome!
[13:05] Andrew Linden: And part of the reason for the RC is to escalate the exposure of new changes without committing them everywhere yet.
[13:05] Andrew Linden: So that seems to be working.
[13:05] Motor Loon: yep
[13:06] MB Robonaught: may I suggest to save LL a lot of headaches that some kindof notice be sent out informing vehicle builders the may need to do upgrades?
[13:07] Darian Rau: Rau
[13:07] Darian Rau: Darian
[13:07] Hollowmengitus Yifu: That'd require a lot of messages, and not everyone would get the message even still.
[13:07] MB Robonaught: other wise you'll have thousands of mad car owners
[13:07] Andrew Linden: That is a good suggestion. I'll relay it to others.
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