Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.07.17

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List of Speakers

Acheron Gloom Andrew Linden Baker Linden
Darian Rau Hollowmengitus Yifu Kelly Linden
Liisa Runo MartinRJ MB Robonaught
Motor Loon Nalates Urriah Nathan Forder
Qie Niangao Rex Cronon Simon Linden
Stickman Vladi Hazelnut Yuzuru Jewell


[12:02] Stickman: The age old rule: Never show up on time to your own party.

[12:02] Hollowmengitus Yifu: Simon, can I have that dialation chart?

[12:02] Motor Loon: Good to see you're too busy to have spare time to fix your avatar Kelly

[12:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:02] Simon Linden: I didn't make it, unfortunately

[12:02] Andrew Linden: wow, I wonder what's going on right now

[12:03] MartinRJ: hello all

[12:03] Hollowmengitus Yifu: aw

[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi

[12:03] Stickman: Someone's drawing parabolic curves on the graph, that's what's happening.

[12:03] Kelly Linden: I think this avatar looks like my other avatar is walking on hands and knees in a really teeny costume. I think it is hilarious.

[12:03] Baker Linden: hi everyone

[12:03] Simon Linden: Lots of rezzing, I think

[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi baker

[12:03] Acheron Gloom: Earlier I had some scripts rezzed that were mildly resource intensive, but not too bad, and the sim crashed. It was odd.

[12:03] Acheron Gloom: I was just waiting around before the meeting.

[12:04] Acheron Gloom: And its a bit laggy now, not sure what it is.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I wonder what channel we're on here in Denby...

[12:06] Hollowmengitus Yifu: That wasn't Acheron, lol

[12:06] Yuzuru Jewell: Oh Region was downed..

[12:07] Motor Loon: wunderbar

[12:07] Rex Cronon: did sim crash, or was just me?

[12:07] Motor Loon: sim

[12:07] Acheron Gloom: Sim

[12:07] Andrew Linden: It appears that this region was shutdown, not crashed.

[12:07] Acheron Gloom: Interesting

[12:07] Liisa Runo: i crashed too

[12:07] Hollowmengitus Yifu: weird

[12:07] Rex Cronon: shutdown? wow. it got a mind of its own now?

[12:07] Nalates Urriah: I was logged out...

[12:07] Motor Loon: Forced IDLE mode haha

[12:08] Simon Linden: The grid reached self-awareness several years ago, Rex

[12:08] Andrew Linden: Well, it wasn't from a rolling restart. Odd.

[12:08] Stickman: Yes, that was totally a region idle bug. I knew that feature was going to doom us all!

[12:08] Rex Cronon: right simon:)

[12:08] Motor Loon: It was probably Kelly trying to be funny

[12:08] Qie Niangao: such a short step from self-aware to self-loathing :p

[12:08] Acheron Gloom: Naw

[12:08] Andrew Linden: Interestingly, this region actually crashed about 45 minutes ago, prior to this meeting.

[12:09] Andrew Linden: Perhaps I'll dig into the callstack to see why.

[12:09] Rex Cronon: the aticipation killed it?

[12:09] Andrew Linden: We're running on the main channel here "Second Life Server"

[12:09] Simon Linden: This region rarely crashes, since it doesn't get a lot of traffic outside of the user group that I know of. Maybe there are wild parties late at night

[12:09] Motor Loon: probably with todays roll out?

[12:10] Andrew Linden: Ok so news...

[12:10] Rex Cronon: the rolling restarts r bugged?

[12:10] Andrew Linden: I was going to look into some corrupt inventory problems in my spare time

[12:10] Andrew Linden: but I only got one contact about it (probably someone referred by Ardy?)

[12:10] Andrew Linden: and I seem to have lost their name...

[12:11] Andrew Linden: it was via IM and I don't seem to have written it down

[12:11] MartinRJ: regexp + logfile :)

[12:11] Andrew Linden: so if anyone here has corrupt inventory, or knows of someon, have them send me an email or IM

[12:11] Andrew Linden: and I"ll try to actually note their name down this time

[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'll also ask our internal #support channel to let me know if they get reports of broken inventory that I can check on.

[12:12] Andrew Linden: Yeah, you're right MartinRJ, I can find the logfile...

[12:12] Andrew Linden: since I'm on Windows here it just didn't occur to me...

[12:13] Rex Cronon: how many people with corrupt inventories do u need?

[12:13] Andrew Linden: but... I think I was connected via my linux machine last Friday, so I need to look there

[12:13] Andrew Linden: just a few Rex, three to five

[12:13] Rex Cronon: oh. ok

[12:14] Andrew Linden: I would like to get a quick glimpse at the sorts of inventory problems that people have

[12:14] Andrew Linden: so I can test a fixed script against those inventories (copied to aditi first)

[12:14] Andrew Linden: and as a bonus... if it looks like my script is working I'll fix their inventories once I'm confident I can do it.

[12:15] Baker Linden: After some testing and optimizing, I've determined I need to move a large group query off the dataserver, and essentially do an asynchronous query. I've been having issues reliably getting data back from the sql command; this should fix that issue. Additionally, it won't cause the server to be blocked while performing the query.

[12:15] Andrew Linden: That's all the news for me. My main work is to review how the server's interestlist works and try to do some benchmark testing on it.

[12:15] MartinRJ: I think it was Warthog Jun - but I'm not sure.

[12:15] MartinRJ: (checked my chatlog)

[12:15] Andrew Linden: So that once we start fixing it we can verify that our fixes are actually helping.

[12:16] Andrew Linden: MartinRJ, that was a previous inventory problem. Warthog was asking for help for a friend.

[12:16] Andrew Linden: Their inventory was already fixed, but I did it via my CLI (command line interface) tool.

[12:16] MartinRJ: ah ok, then probably I've missed that meeting.

[12:16] MartinRJ: nice: )

[12:16] Andrew Linden: There is a second tool (triggered by some web interfaces) that needs to also be fixed.

[12:17] Andrew Linden: fin

[12:17] Andrew Linden: If anyone else has news, go ahead.

[12:17] Simon Linden: The release info for this week is at

[12:18] Simon Linden: The roll this morning seemed to go OK, but they are taking longer than before due to the new way things are updated

[12:18] Motor Loon: dont look like too much new this week

[12:19] Motor Loon: considering the news on mainchannel is not activated yet

[12:19] Nalates Urriah: How long is a region down for the roll?

[12:19] Simon Linden: No, not much new. Plans for next week are still up in the air, but I'd put my money on Bluesteel getting promoted

[12:19] MB Robonaught: will pathfinder go main next week?

[12:19] Simon Linden: Nal - I'm not sure. I know that was an issue a few weeks ago, but I think there was some work to shorten the down time

[12:20] Andrew Linden: No MB, I don't think so.

[12:20] Vladi Hazelnut: so no eta or scheduled launch date then?

[12:21] Simon Linden: Nothing solid, Vladi. The viewer update is also needed

[12:21] Simon Linden: For myself, I took a little detour yesterday and implemented a mini-feature I've always wanted -- pasting LSL function signatures in the script editor

[12:21] MB Robonaught: that gives us more time whew lol

[12:21] Vladi Hazelnut: so they are still playing with the code then?

[12:21] Nalates Urriah: function signatures ?

[12:21] Rex Cronon: function signature? what is that?

[12:22] Simon Linden: It works like this ... type out the LSL function you want, double click it, wait for the tooltip, press tab, and you get the first line of the tooltip

[12:22] Nathan Forder: well that will make it faster imo

[12:22] Rex Cronon: oh. to speedup coding

[12:23] Vladi Hazelnut: oh, I have a question while I am here, maybe someone can help me with it.

[12:23] Simon Linden: so you can just type "listen" and quickly get the full listen( .... ) function with the parameters

[12:23] Andrew Linden: Vladi, there is an approximate ETA for the pathfinding stuff... as soon as it gets its promotion turn after RC.

[12:23] Vladi Hazelnut: ah ok

[12:23] Andrew Linden: Which means... maybe two to three weeks if everything goes well.

[12:24] Andrew Linden: We are fixing a few things in that channel during RC.

[12:24] Vladi Hazelnut: ok, that aside I having a strange issue.

[12:24] MB Robonaught: reason we ask is you're in for no end of drama that isn't your fault

[12:24] Simon Linden: That's all my news

[12:24] Andrew Linden: I think we've got three little bug fixes that we hope to get out this week for the pathfinding RC (Magnum channel)P

[12:24] Vladi Hazelnut: you know how in the new edit menu you have features, where you can set gravity and friction and what not?

[12:24] Vladi Hazelnut: for some reason they don't take for me.

[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: I have to change them like 20 times.

[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: I change them, click edit and its back to where it was.

[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: but if I give mb rights and she changes it, it sticks.

[12:25] Simon Linden: but it will eventually work?

[12:25] Andrew Linden: Vladi, yeah that sounds like a bug.

[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: eventually

[12:25] Vladi Hazelnut: pretty annoying though lol

[12:26] Vladi Hazelnut: and it just seems to be me.

[12:26] Vladi Hazelnut: and it doesn't matter what viewer.

[12:26] Andrew Linden: If it is actually possible to change those params then the viewer UI should reflect that, and changes should take effect at the server.

[12:26] Vladi Hazelnut: even does it on the beta grid.

[12:26] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try to repro that problem later today.

[12:27] Simon Linden: There are some areas where the viewer UI can get mixed up since it relies on a message going to the server and back, but those are often obviously worse on slow connections

[12:27] Vladi Hazelnut: could it be an issue with my computer?

[12:27] Andrew Linden: No Vladi, I don't see how it could be your computer.

[12:27] Vladi Hazelnut: whew lol

[12:27] Andrew Linden: If you make a change via the UI and then submit, and the info in the UI actually reverts...

[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: yes, that is exactly what it does.

[12:28] Andrew Linden: then that means that the server is probably getting the message, and sending back info negating the changes your viewer thinks it made.

[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: I could video it if you want so you can see exactly what happens.

[12:28] MartinRJ: may I ask where you are located at, Vladi??

[12:28] Andrew Linden: So it sounds like the server is rejecting your change.

[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: it doesn't matter where I am at.

[12:28] Vladi Hazelnut: let me try it here real quick.

[12:29] Andrew Linden: Yeah, he location may matter. What is the name of the region where you were trying it?

[12:29] Simon Linden: Is your network connection pretty good?

[12:29] MartinRJ: I mean do you live in Europe or the USA

[12:29] Vladi Hazelnut: usa, michigan

[12:29] MB Robonaught: I use the same viewer and don't hve his problem and i can change his settings

[12:29] MartinRJ: there's a similar issue with setting permissions

[12:29] MartinRJ: if you have a high latency

[12:29] Vladi Hazelnut: I have a good connection

[12:29] MB Robonaught: could it be account related?

[12:29] MartinRJ: so people in Europe have to set permissions twice, all the time

[12:30] Motor Loon: I dont have the problem, and I'm in europe

[12:30] Andrew Linden: Hrm... the per-object gravity and friction feature was part of the mesh project, delivered about a year ago.

[12:30] Vladi Hazelnut: ok, it works here lol

[12:30] MartinRJ: that's

[12:30] Simon Linden: The permissions settings are one of those that relies on a message going to the simulator and back

[12:30] JIRA-helper:

[#VWR-28742] Permissions (modify/copy) uncheck themselves

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Vladi Hazelnut: maybe it is server related somehow

[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: it was doing it on the pathfinding sandbox 3

[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: and on the beta grid where you have the pathfinding meetings

[12:31] Andrew Linden: ok that is helpful, I'll test there later today

[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: And on our sim.

[12:31] Vladi Hazelnut: what is the actual name mb lol

[12:31] MartinRJ: motor I added a video to that jira that demonstrates the bug

[12:31] Motor Loon: yeah?`

[12:32] Vladi Hazelnut: and our sim that is recreated on the beta grid for testing.

[12:32] Andrew Linden: whose name is... ?

[12:32] Hollowmengitus Yifu: Protip: Use the Places button, view teleport history, find sim.

[12:33] MB Robonaught: who is that question to Andrew?

[12:33] Motor Loon: not getting that problem at all (on Firestorm) Martin

[12:33] MartinRJ: I think that doesn't count, Motor

[12:33] MartinRJ: :D

[12:33] Vladi Hazelnut: i don't have that option on this viewer lol

[12:33] Andrew Linden: That question was for Vladi, who said there is a pathfinding region on aditi, cloned from agni.

[12:34] Vladi Hazelnut: that is why I asked mb lol

[12:34] Vladi Hazelnut: its her sim

[12:34] MB Robonaught: Kustom Klasssics HQ

[12:34] Andrew Linden: ok thanks.

[12:34] Vladi Hazelnut: I can't remember stuff like that.

[12:35] Vladi Hazelnut: I am messed up in the head, big shock in sl lol.

[12:35] MartinRJ: vladi you should always test issues with the official viewer first, if you're not 100% sure that it's not viewer-related

[12:35] Vladi Hazelnut: I do

[12:35] MartinRJ: before reporting them as bugs

[12:35] Vladi Hazelnut: I actually test viewers as a hobby

[12:36] Vladi Hazelnut: I just tested 13 viewers last week.

[12:36] Simon Linden: wow

[12:36] Motor Loon: hobby... I mostly just watch porn

[12:36] Vladi Hazelnut: and for me the sl viewer has the best frame rates.

[12:36] Nathan Forder ears perk

[12:36] Vladi Hazelnut: just not the features I need.

[12:36] Nathan Forder: mmm porn lol

[12:37] Simon Linden: uh, let's stick with lag and such for today

[12:37] Vladi Hazelnut: I gotta have the local bitmap browser or i will die lol

[12:37] Andrew Linden: what is the "local bitmap browser" ?

[12:38] Vladi Hazelnut: it lest you upload a texture and apply it, and it updates when the texture changes on your comptuer.

[12:38] Andrew Linden: Ah right, the try-before-upload feature.

[12:38] MB Robonaught: lag has been normal the last couple weeks but the pathfinder sandboxes were pretty bad

[12:38] Vladi Hazelnut: so you can make changes to texture, save it and instantly see it in sl.

[12:38] Vladi Hazelnut: but only you can see it.

[12:39] Vladi Hazelnut: to everyone else its grey

[12:39] Andrew Linden: MB, you're experiencing higher than normal lag on the pathfinding channel?

[12:39] Andrew Linden: What regions?

[12:40] Vladi Hazelnut: we were on the magnum server and when pathfinding came out our sim had horrible lag.

[12:40] MB Robonaught: yes and region crossing between the sandboxes is horrid....across the region rubber banding

[12:40] Andrew Linden: The pathfinding channel is the "Second Life RC Magnum" channel.

[12:40] Andrew Linden: Ah, during region crossings.

[12:41] MB Robonaught: non region crossing both FPS's were around 41 average

[12:42] Rex Cronon: andrew, having 2 favorites folders is it considered inventory corruption?

[12:42] Andrew Linden: I made a note. I'll see if I can look for a global FPS shift on the Magnum channel from pathfinding.

[12:42] MB Robonaught: ok

[12:43] Andrew Linden: Rex, yeah that would be inventory corruption.,

[12:43] MB Robonaught: Im not complaining just passing our test findings along

[12:44] Andrew Linden: No worries, that is one of the things we're hoping to get out of these user group meetings... feedback and anecdotes about problems noticed around the grid.

[12:45] MB Robonaught: we're test happy lol

[12:45] Nathan Forder: tell me about it

[12:45] Nathan Forder: =D

[12:46] Vladi Hazelnut: I know when we had the pathfinding code on our sim and having problems Flalcon linden came and did some testes.

[12:46] Vladi Hazelnut: he spent about an hour there.

[12:46] MB Robonaught: is there more detailed information on what exactly is different between pathfinder and the old version such as changes for volumedectect?

[12:47] MB Robonaught: sure wuld help our debugging process out if there were

[12:47] Vladi Hazelnut: yes we noticed an odd glitch with the cars last night.

[12:47] Vladi Hazelnut: And when I say We and Ours I am referring to MB, incase you were confused lol.

[12:48] Andrew Linden: There have been some changes around VolumeDetect, I think. But I don't have that list in my head right now, and don't know if it is well documented yet.

[12:48] Andrew Linden: Info like that should be on the public release notes.

[12:48] MB Robonaught: it's not clear on what types of changes

[12:48] Andrew Linden: I'll have to look them over and consule with some other Linden's who know the state of known bugs/changes.

[12:48] MB Robonaught: just says it was changed

[12:49] MB Robonaught: more documentation on projects sure would help us out

[12:49] MB Robonaught: so we can adapt ahead of time to changes

[12:50] MB Robonaught: and help give input

[12:50] MB Robonaught: we all want to help too

[12:51] Andrew Linden: Right.

[12:52] Vladi Hazelnut: is there anything specific you would like tested? I am good at breaking things lol.

[12:52] MB Robonaught: if any testing is needed for vehicles just ask we'll be glad to try to break things for you lol

[12:52] Vladi Hazelnut: I can't script though so not much help there.

[12:52] Andrew Linden: Some vehicles have broken in the pathfinding RC.

[12:53] Andrew Linden: Those that we examined last week all had very strange design issues that made them very susceptible to breakage.

[12:53] Yuzuru Jewell: My friends are testing vehicles on PF Sim..

[12:53] MB Robonaught: yes Andrew we with the help of falcon developed a fix though bizarre it works

[12:53] Andrew Linden: The main thing that changed for vehicles in the pathfinding code is that the terrain no longer collides like a "heightfield" (a 2D function of heights)

[12:53] MB Robonaught: it required design and scripting changes

[12:54] Andrew Linden: but now collides like a "mesh" (a list of triangles)

[12:54] Vladi Hazelnut: race cars work a bit different than regular sl vehicles. And everyone is very secretive of how their cars are scripted. so it hard to compare notes.

[12:54] MB Robonaught: the cars are also losing the vehicle deffintions as well

[12:54] Andrew Linden: the main difference between those two is that the heightfield only collides on one side, and it is relatively simple to do penetration resolution when objects embed the heightfield

[12:54] Yuzuru Jewell: more bump on seam of road.

[12:54] Andrew Linden: but mesh triangles collide on both sides, top and bottom

[12:55] MB Robonaught: we have to add two definitions for them to operate

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Andrew Linden: so if you have a vehicle that has lots of triangles on it (meshy vehicle, or concave prims) instead of simpler shapes such as boxes, perfect spheres

[12:55] MB Robonaught: right Andrew

[12:56] Andrew Linden: then when the vehicle penetrates the mesh the resolution code that tries to separate them can get confused

[12:56] Andrew Linden: and as a result the vehicl can "snag" on the terrain

[12:56] Andrew Linden: so the vehicles we noticed that had problems were very strange...

[12:56] Vladi Hazelnut: it seems high prim no attach vehicles have the most problems.

[12:56] Andrew Linden: their collision shapes were very thin boxes, very low to the ground

[12:56] Vladi Hazelnut: But those are the ones that sell the best lol.

[12:56] Andrew Linden: and one of the vehicles had heavy force pushing it down

[12:56] Vladi Hazelnut: yep, that was ours lol

[12:57] Andrew Linden: and the colliding box was concave

[12:57] MB Robonaught: that is for race cars Andrew

[12:57] Andrew Linden: hence it was a collection of triangles

[12:57] Andrew Linden: ok

[12:57] Nathan Forder: sometimes thay are flying cars lol

[12:57] Vladi Hazelnut: most of the drag cars use a flat base the cars ride on, rather than the wheels.

[12:57] MB Robonaught: we have a fix for that issue but only we have adapted the rest haven't tried

[12:58] Andrew Linden: There is a fundamental problem with ground vehicles in Second Life...

[12:58] Andrew Linden: They actually don't have wheels per-se

[12:58] Andrew Linden: but are colliding objects that kinda scrape along the surface of the ground or road

[12:58] Vladi Hazelnut: right

[12:58] Andrew Linden: so they rely very much on collisions to move correctly

[12:58] Andrew Linden: however...

[12:58] MB Robonaught: race cars are extremely complicated in design

[12:59] Andrew Linden: whenever the physics engine is updated the _details_ of how collisions are computed, or the results thereof

[12:59] Andrew Linden: can change subtly

[12:59] Vladi Hazelnut: yes, we have to adapt our cars every time you change the physcs engine.

[12:59] Andrew Linden: and as a result, ground vehicles in SL are very sensitive to changes in the physics engine details

[12:59] Vladi Hazelnut: so stop! lol

[13:00] Andrew Linden: I should mention that I wrote the vehicle code for SL, way back in 2003

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] MB Robonaught: on the path findinder regions using llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION,setpos]); removes the vehicle deffinition

[13:00] Rex Cronon: sadly that means each time havok changes the vehicles need to be updated. that is a lot of work for those that sell/make vehicles:(

[13:00] Andrew Linden: and at that time I didn't know or suspect this sensitive dependency on the physics engine

[13:01] MB Robonaught: *note the above is to return the car to the start line*

[13:01] Andrew Linden: but if I were to do vehicles again, I'd try to separate ground from air vehicles, featurewise anyway

[13:01] Hollowmengitus Yifu: Of course.

[13:02] Vladi Hazelnut: We keep trying to tell racers to keep in mind they are playing a game inside a game that wasn't meant to be played.

[13:02] Vladi Hazelnut: sl was not made for drag racing in any means.

[13:02] Andrew Linden: Well... if we stop ugrading the physics engine then we lose the ability to fix other things, and the ability to add some new features to SL

[13:02] Motor Loon: very true Vladi

[13:02] MB Robonaught: especially what our customers expect out of our cars vladi

[13:02] Vladi Hazelnut: yes I was just joking with you.

[13:03] MB Robonaught: the upgrades are sorely needed but more data on changes would sure help

[13:03] Vladi Hazelnut: this is no different than any other technology based business, you have to adapt with the changing times and technology. or be left behind.

[13:03] Andrew Linden: Yup.

[13:03] MB Robonaught: we're kinda flying blind upgrading our stuff

[13:03] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try to take a look at the release notes and see if I or someone else can update them.

[13:03] Motor Loon: Personally I'd expect to have to update some stuff now and then... it's no different that making racecars in RL... rules change in the sport - and the car makers must adapt, new tires are invented and perhaps the cars steering needs to be adjusted...

[13:04] MB Robonaught: thanks Andrew

[13:04] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[13:04] Nathan Forder: the down time would cripple us thats the real problem isnt it MB ?

[13:04] Stickman: Thanks for being here!

[13:04] Vladi Hazelnut: right motor

[13:04] MB Robonaught: I have no prob doing updates as long as I know what to upgrade lol

[13:04] Vladi Hazelnut: sort of like if they repave the track.

[13:04] Vladi Hazelnut: you have to re tune the whole car.

[13:04] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens

[13:04] MB Robonaught: most of the down time nathan was being unclear what had changed

[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[13:05] MB Robonaught: thanks very much :))

[13:05] Nathan Forder: yes thanks for the info

[13:05] Andrew Linden: Well, pathfinding was in beta for months, and in pre-RC on agni for a while.

[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving

[13:05] Qie Niangao: Thanks all, have fun!

[13:05] MB Robonaught: pathfinder is awesome!

[13:05] Andrew Linden: And part of the reason for the RC is to escalate the exposure of new changes without committing them everywhere yet.

[13:05] Andrew Linden: So that seems to be working.

[13:05] Motor Loon: yep

[13:06] MB Robonaught: may I suggest to save LL a lot of headaches that some kindof notice be sent out informing vehicle builders the may need to do upgrades?

[13:07] Darian Rau: Rau

[13:07] Darian Rau: Darian

[13:07] Hollowmengitus Yifu: That'd require a lot of messages, and not everyone would get the message even still.

[13:07] MB Robonaught: other wise you'll have thousands of mad car owners

[13:07] Andrew Linden: That is a good suggestion. I'll relay it to others.


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