Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.09.04

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden AnnMarie Otoole Baker Linden
Jonathan Yap Kallista Destiny Liisa Runo
Lomoco Binder Motor Loon Nalates Urriah
NeoBokrug Elytis Qie Niangao Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi TankMaster Finesmith Theresa Tennyson


[12:00] Kallista Destiny: Nay, it's talk like yerrr scottish day

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:01] Kallista Destiny: Hi Rex

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi kallista

[12:01] Andrew Linden: I don

[12:01] Qie Niangao tries to channel his inner MacNiangao

[12:02] Andrew Linden: I don't think Kelly or Simon will be able to make it today. They are working on some hot issue that blocked the update today.

[12:02] Kallista Destiny takes off her sunglasses

[12:03] Andrew Linden: anybody have the link to the server RC status page?

[12:03] Andrew Linden: I wonder what was posted there.

[12:04] Qie Niangao: maybe?

[12:04] Rex Cronon: this :

[12:04] Rex Cronon: ?

[12:04] Andrew Linden: Qui's link is the one I'm looking for.

[12:05] Andrew Linden: Qie's link, I mean.

[12:05] Andrew Linden: It mentions SVC-8208

[12:05] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-8208] L$ received notification not appearing when on an RC region - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:05] Andrew Linden: which is the blocker that was discovered over the weekend

[12:05] Kallista Destiny: well that is a show stopper

[12:05] Motor Loon: Mabye its just me... but isn't that just a tiny tiny bug that don't really matter much?

[12:06] Theresa Tennyson: It would be if people knew what was going on. If you don't, you'll freak.

[12:06] Motor Loon: you can always check your transactions

[12:06] Motor Loon: ah well, probably just me

[12:06] Rex Cronon: doesn't your L$ counter upgrade?

[12:06] Theresa Tennyson mutters, "And since there isn't much of a way to send out notices of widespread temporary system glitches..."

[12:06] Andrew Linden: Yeah, could cause confusion, and it was discovered before we rolled the update to the main channel.

[12:07] Theresa Tennyson: It will update if you click on the total.

[12:07] Andrew Linden: Dunno if it would have caused an revert if we had discovered it this afternoon after the update.

[12:07] Andrew Linden: Other than that, not much news since Friday

[12:07] Andrew Linden: So I guess the table is open.

[12:08] Lomoco Binder: I found a slight problem with llCastRay and phantom avatars. It detects them whether or not RC_DETECT_PHANTOM is FALSE or not.

[12:08] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8213] llCastRay detects phantom avatars with RC_DETECT_PHANTOM set to FALSE - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:09] Andrew Linden: Hrm... phantom avatars are a bug... er misfeature, btw.

[12:09] Lomoco Binder: Yeah.. but still widely used, and it'd be useful to be able to properly detect them.

[12:09] Theresa Tennyson: The payment notice brings up a recurring problem - there isn't an established way to get residents notice of glitches like that so they can look for them.

[12:09] Andrew Linden: That is, phantom avatars were not the intentional behavior.

[12:10] Liisa Runo: intentional or not, still very usefull and needed

[12:10] Rex Cronon: there is the grid status page. usually grid problems get posted there

[12:10] Theresa Tennyson: The grid status is pretty much a handful of canned phrases though.

[12:11] Kallista Destiny: ant will probably get rolled down pretty quick

[12:11] Kallista Destiny: unless refreshed regularly

[12:12] Andrew Linden: I don't know if we'll ever get to SVC-8213. I can discuss it with Falcon. However he definitely does not have a soft spot for misfeatures.

[12:12] Motor Loon: haha

[12:12] Motor Loon: true dat

[12:12] AnnMarie Otoole: Promotes SVC-7729. Objects entering NO-ENTRY parcels. I get about 10 a day where vehicles are trapped due to also NO-SCRIPT. Don't know how many times it happens on script OK land and they escape. Most are just trapped millimeters inside the parcel.

[12:12] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-7729] Physical objects can cross into no-entry parcel - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:12] Lomoco Binder: This wouldn't necessarily be supporting the misfeature, more of enabling us to detect if someone is exploiting it.

[12:14] Andrew Linden: Ha! Good point Lomoco. This would allow people to make misfeature detectors.

[12:14] Andrew Linden: Which we hope would enable them to lecture content creators who are discovered using them, "You know Falcon doesn't like that misfeature, right?" ;-)

[12:15] Andrew Linden: Hrm... 7729...

[12:15] Motor Loon: Seems better to me that it does detect avatars dont it... say you use raycast for a gun, you want it to be able to shoot thru phantom things but always hit an avatar

[12:15] Lomoco Binder: Well, it would at the very least help those in the military community crack down on troublemakers making themselves invincible with it.

[12:16] Motor Loon: but also destroy guns based on raycasting

[12:16] Lomoco Binder: If the avatar is phantom, the raycast gun wouldn't be able to do anything anyways.

[12:17] Motor Loon: depends on the scenario

[12:18] AnnMarie Otoole: 7729 is difficult to reproduce. Appears that physics engine fails to stop the object in time so it manages to cross the parcel boundary.

[12:18] Lomoco Binder: The only way I could see fixing this "breaking" raycast guns is if the raycast gun is using parcel powers to teleport them home or something, and that would really be "enabling" them.

[12:18] NeoBokrug Elytis: Possibly because of a bout of region lag?

[12:19] AnnMarie Otoole: Possible.

[12:19] Theresa Tennyson: There seem to be a lot of issues with object position reports lately.

[12:21] Andrew Linden: I think AnnMarie Otoole's comment on 7729 is probably correct... it may have to do with the discrepancy between the avatar's location and the root location of the vehicle

[12:21] Andrew Linden: and region crossings are probably related there.

[12:22] Qie Niangao: AnnMarie, this is for vehicles without avatars, mostly, right?

[12:22] Andrew Linden: I made a note. I'll mention it to Simon and Kelly for triage, or maybe look into it myself I can find the time.

[12:23] Baker Linden: Here's my news: I'll be pushing out the server and viewer fixes for SVC-4968 this week. I'll be committing the server code and writing documentation (test plans, wiki stuff) today, and setting up a public viewer development branch tomorrow. Once the viewer code is ready, I'll be updating the jira to let people know where to get it.

[12:23] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-4968] Group won't load - too many members - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:24] NeoBokrug Elytis: I can't remember if llSetRegionPos detects land settings across region borders, and returns a false if it's not allowed

[12:24] Nalates Urriah: Yay Baker

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith: woot, just in time for that good bit of news :D

[12:24] AnnMarie Otoole: Yes Qie

[12:24] Andrew Linden: NeoBokrug, that used to be a hard bug to fix, but these days it would be possible (if it really is a bug).

[12:25] NeoBokrug Elytis: I haven't tested in a while, I know it was a problem at some point.

[12:26] Theresa Tennyson: I know you're looking at changing how vehicles cross region boundaries - there are MANY issues with vehicles that make them a pain a lot of the time.

[12:28] Andrew Linden: I don't know of specific plans on changing how vehicles cross region boundaries, but there was a project about region crossings in general for objects.

[12:29] Theresa Tennyson: That was what I was referring to.

[12:29] Andrew Linden: And Falcon has a scheme for improving collisions across region boundaries.

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Motor Loon: excellent

[12:30] NeoBokrug Elytis: Potential raycasts outside the region? :)

[12:30] Motor Loon: Nothing like a good evil scheme

[12:30] Andrew Linden: Right, the region crossing project has been in maintenance mode for a while... part 1 was shipped and introduced a bunch of uncommon bugs

[12:31] Andrew Linden: those have been mostly fixed, as far as I know, so perhaps part2 will proceed soon.

[12:31] Andrew Linden: Falcon

[12:32] Andrew Linden: Falcon's scheme involves sending the collision data for all neighboring "navmesh" objects to each region.

[12:32] Andrew Linden: Their collision data would go into the local region's physics engine, which would allow for better bridges that cross region boundaries

[12:32] Andrew Linden: you wouldn't have to double up prims at the crossing

[12:32] Motor Loon: less need to invisible "crossing prims" like we're used to?

[12:33] NeoBokrug Elytis: That's be nice

[12:33] Motor Loon: thats very silly btw

[12:33] Andrew Linden: and might actually allow for raycasts into neighbors... but it wouldn't work for dynamic objects initially

[12:33] Qie Niangao: hmmm. so the navmesh can (does?) affect non-pathfinding things. I didn't know that.

[12:33] Motor Loon: seems anything there would be an improvement

[12:34] Andrew Linden: No Qie, but the idea would be to only transmit objects that are part of the navmesh for such cross-region collision purposes

[12:34] Qie Niangao: oh, okay

[12:34] Andrew Linden: because, we'd want to first include the objects that are not changing shape/position/rotation very often

[12:34] Qie Niangao: oh... yeah, got it.

[12:35] Andrew Linden: What to do about colliding against the neighbor's moving objects, within the local physics engine, would be a follow up project.

[12:36] Andrew Linden: This cross-region collision feature is one that I've been wanting to get done for a very long time.

[12:36] Andrew Linden: We punted the problem a very long time ago, and figured we'd get around to solving it in the short term.

[12:37] Andrew Linden: But that turned into the very long term, and we still haven't done it yet.

[12:37] Andrew Linden: Falcon's scheme involves using some black magic features from the Havok physics engine to stream the collision data efficiently.

[12:37] Motor Loon: put more good minds on it

[12:38] Andrew Linden: And with some of the foundation work done in the pathfinding project, it is much easier to achieve today than it ever was before.

[12:38] Rex Cronon: come on. there is no black magic in havok

[12:38] Rex Cronon: :)

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith: yeay for PF :D

[12:38] Theresa Tennyson HOPES the changes to the terrain will be good for more than making it feel like the ground has been covered with tar.

[12:39] Andrew Linden: Well, nearly black magic. They've got a system for writing C++ class data directly from memory in one process and loading it up into another, and then fixing any pointer lookups after the fact.

[12:39] Motor Loon: superglue?

[12:39] Theresa Tennyson: Of course, right now people are blaming Pathfinding for everything from lag to Hurricane Isaac.

[12:39] Motor Loon: you mean its NOT responsible for Isaac?

[12:39] Qie Niangao: that's technology sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic.

[12:40] Theresa Tennyson: Superglue would be okay. Everyone knows that superglue only sticks to your fingers.

[12:40] Lomoco Binder: How else did Isaac plot its course?

[12:40] Motor Loon: lol

[12:40] Motor Loon: I thought PF was about going AROUND obstacles?

[12:40] TankMaster Finesmith: voodoo

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith: you can use PF to go to an object/av

[12:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: There is no spoon.

[12:41] Lomoco Binder: Anyways, someone mentioned some parcel access problems... I've encountered some very weird behavior when an avatar is parcel banned in a region that they have EM in. You might want to have the parcel access code looked at as a whole and see if it deserves some overhauling /91568203 rewriting.

[12:41] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8217] Strange behavior when estate managers are parcel banned - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:41] Lomoco Binder: (Darn that crazy gesture is replacing my slashes again.)

[12:42] Andrew Linden: Estate Managers have special handling on parcel operations, yes.

[12:42] Andrew Linden: So I'm not too surprised that there might be inconsistencies there.

[12:43] Lomoco Binder: From that page: "they may still enter the parcel, and they may rez objects from inventory, but they may not create new objects from the build menu or chat in local. "

[12:43] Andrew Linden: Looking at SVC-8217 I'd say the bug is that the EM is not able to rez new objects in that case.

[12:43] Andrew Linden: Er.. the bug is that they cannot build new prims there.

[12:43] Lomoco Binder: Is there a difference, in terms of permissions? Are the permission checks for rezzing and creating different blocks of code?

[12:45] Andrew Linden: Yes, they are. Rezzing an item from inventory can produce several objects at once, that span multiple parcels.

[12:45] Motor Loon: makes sense

[12:45] Andrew Linden: So the code there is different from the handler for a request to build a single prim in one spot.

[12:45] TankMaster Finesmith: i bet the code for that is really simple.... *coughs*

[12:45] Andrew Linden: 8217 shouldn't be hard to fix, especially since it is a bug in the simpler case.

[12:46] NeoBokrug Elytis: I'm thinking about making a new feature request in that an estate can override any land setting. I imagine that'd be very had and a lot of work.

[12:46] NeoBokrug Elytis: Such as force object entry on/off for everywhere

[12:47] Lomoco Binder: That exists:

[12:47] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-508] Estate override for parcel settings - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:47] NeoBokrug Elytis: Oh, well I'll vote it up then :)

[12:48] TankMaster Finesmith: LL doesnt look at votes anymore

[12:49] Motor Loon: That would be highly useful in private estates

[12:49] NeoBokrug Elytis: Yeah but watching makes my inbox explode.

[12:49] Andrew Linden: In some sense, I can see how that would be a desired feature... everybody wants more control. But how would it be used the most?

[12:49] Motor Loon: spamfilter Neo

[12:49] Andrew Linden: To prevent people from enabling land settings? or forcing them to be enabled?

[12:49] Motor Loon: either likely

[12:50] Lomoco Binder: In the simplest case, just having the ability to change them.

[12:50] Liisa Runo: I think LL should watch the votes. Vote means that the voter agree with the JIRA entry, while vote can also mean that the watcher is intrested, but does not agree

[12:50] Andrew Linden: EM's can currently modify parcel settings, right?

[12:50] NeoBokrug Elytis: Andrew, in my estate I run an opt-in game, as well as lease land out. It's 11 regions all connected. I have NPCs that roam, objects that zip across the land to rez other lootable objects, etc.

[12:50] Lomoco Binder: No

[12:50] Liisa Runo: while watch*

[12:50] Lomoco Binder: You could also just have some sort of permissions setting, where the Estate Owner can designate which EMs can access parcel settings.

[12:50] Andrew Linden: Oh really? Hrm... should they be able to ?

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: LL stoped looking at votes after there was a lot af 'froud' going on with them

[12:50] NeoBokrug Elytis: If someone sets scripts to off, that puts a stop on some of it's ability to work

[12:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Andrew - nope.

[12:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: never have been able to.

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: some would create an issue, then use/create 2 dozzen alts and vote for it

[12:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It's something we've love to have, though. >.<

[12:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: we'd*

[12:51] Motor Loon: We, for example, require our residents to leave public access open on their parcels - and only ban indivuals. Object entry is nice if allowed normally... but during a griefing it may be nice to be able to disable entry & rez on the whole sim regardless of parcel settings and ownership

[12:51] NeoBokrug Elytis: Part of my covenant is that people leave object entry on, but not everyone reads. :(

[12:51] NeoBokrug Elytis: What Motor said too

[12:51] Andrew Linden: That would probably be easier to do than to create per-region or per-estate overrides for various parcel features.

[12:51] Motor Loon: per region would be fine

[12:51] Motor Loon: better probably

[12:52] Lomoco Binder: Could do that, but also just give EMs access to the parcel settings directly

[12:52] Motor Loon: different regions may very well have different "rules" set by the EMs

[12:52] Motor Loon: thatd be nice but too time consuming Lomoco

[12:52] NeoBokrug Elytis: To be honest, I like all these options

[12:53] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The regions I help look after require build for everyone to be turned off. A lot of people don't turn it off though.

[12:53] NeoBokrug Elytis: Maybe it can be a tree of estate/region settings

[12:53] Motor Loon: mabye both

[12:53] Lomoco Binder: Well, otherwise you're going to have to add all of those parcel overrides into the estate management floater, which might demand a separate tab all of its own

[12:53] Andrew Linden: Well, EM capabilities to modify parcel settings would be relatively simple, and would help, but would cause some confusion

[12:54] Andrew Linden: as people find their parcel settings have been changed. They could change them back and have a settings-war with the EM.

[12:54] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That's where a simple IM and poking them to read the covenant helps.

[12:54] Kallista Destiny: Notify parcel owner on override?

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Lomoco Binder: In that case, having the override ability would be useful.

[12:55] Andrew Linden: Nevertheless, I'd prioritize that first, and then look into whether more per-region settings make sense.

[12:55] Motor Loon: Any extra abilities for EMs would certainly be highly appriciated Andrew

[12:55] Jonathan Yap: How about being able to see a list of parcel settings in a region without having to visit them one at a time?

[12:55] Andrew Linden: We already have some per-region settings, but they typically have an on-off state and override parcel settings in only one of those states.

[12:55] Andrew Linden: For example, scripts can be disabled region-wide

[12:55] NeoBokrug Elytis: I think per-region/estate would save a lot of time for estate managers, especially those mega estates with 100s of regions

[12:56] Andrew Linden: but that is for debugging and anti-grief tools, rather than for full-time settings

[12:56] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It doesn't work well for anti-griefing.

[12:56] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: If at all.

[12:56] Motor Loon: We have hundreds of regions, and I'd have no problem putting a staff member on doing each region - providing it only had to be done once.

[12:57] Andrew Linden: I don't think there are any per-region parameters that have a three-state option: on, off, or unspecified (in which case the parcel setting wins)

[12:57] Lomoco Binder: You'd have to get some user interface specialists to work that one out.

[12:57] NeoBokrug Elytis: That'd be nice though Andrew :)

[12:58] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, a big list of region settings is not very hard, for the server-side.

[12:58] Andrew Linden: We could add another capability that provides that info.

[12:58] Kallista Destiny: actually If you have 2 bits it would be ON/OFF and OVERRIDE/Don't Override

[12:59] Andrew Linden: Kallista, you're right. That would enable the most control.

[12:59] Kallista Destiny: On don;t menas only in those places that arenlt part of parcles

[12:59] Kallista Destiny: etc.

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Rex Cronon: tc everybody. have nice day:)

[13:00] Kallista Destiny: Or easier have to tables of bits, one for state, one for override.

[13:01] Andrew Linden: I wish all the region settings were just a text config file... but I'm a linux user so that shouldn't be too surprising.

[13:01] NeoBokrug Elytis: :)

[13:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hah

[13:01] Lomoco Binder: That would be fun

[13:01] NeoBokrug Elytis: Thanks for considering it.

[13:02] Lomoco Binder: I'd vote for that.

[13:02] Andrew Linden: That is, I'd prefer an interface for controlling estates, regions, parcels, and maybe even objects as just editing a series of config files.

[13:02] Kallista Destiny: Oh can Jira be set for vote for and against? or watch for watch against?

[13:03] Andrew Linden: The UI could then be "User Interface Sugar" on top of the config file system.

[13:03] Kallista Destiny: Andrew you'd need serious error checking with no replace on error (as in crontab)

[13:04] Andrew Linden: Right, a config sanity test

[13:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: Andrew: or a non-inside-sl web interface

[13:04] Lomoco Binder: Oh please no

[13:04] Kallista Destiny: Yeah rigorous

[13:04] Andrew Linden: oh well, it is in the land of my pipe dreams.

[13:05] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith: have a good week

[13:05] Lomoco Binder: No more web interfaces to replace native floaters... please

[13:05] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew, Baker, all. Have fun all!

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith: and thx for your time, baker and andrew

[13:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Not until slplugin works properly.


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