Difference between revisions of "Talk:Hex"

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(archive the talk that preceded our dividing the article in two)
 
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The compiler doesn't optimize the output, for a function that is going to be used as a core function, speed & size should be the most important thing. Personally I wouldn't use hex, I'd only use hexu, LSL treats the upper bit as the sign bit; adding the sign is unnecessary for LSL. Of course who really transfers numbers between LSL scripts uses hex strings anyway? I use Base64 encoding for floats and just leave integers raw, or sometimes convert them to base64 too. Hex is just too slow to generate. -- [[User:Strife Onizuka|Strife Onizuka]] 10:03, 10 October 2007 (PDT)
= Talk:Hex Archives =


Two replies:
See 2007-10-29 http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hex&oldid=38446 to read fourteen old threads:


1.
* 1 That Red Mist, Dispelled Maybe
* 2 Solution
* 3 Efficiency Tester vs. Code Racer
* 4 llGetFreeMemory and llGetTime results
** 4.1 Round Three
** 4.2 Round Two
** 4.3 Round One
* 5 Different & Clever & Fast
* 6 Third Talk
* 7 197 bytes or more
* 8 91+-2 milliseconds or more
* 9 Neutral Point Of View
** 9.1 You Deleting My Work, Me Deleting Your Work
** 9.2 Why bother with fast or small or different code exemplars
* 10 LSO, Defined
* 11 Talk:Hex Archives


I agree hexu and hex shouldn't be used as core functions for communication between scripts.
See 2007-10-24 http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hex&oldid=38020 to read five old threads:


I agree we could/ should improve this hex article by adding a note to explain when people should prefer alternatives such as [[llIntegerToBase64]].
* 5 Edit Conflicts
* 8 18 October Rewrite
* 9 Loop Costs Unscientific
* 11 Due Diligence
* 12 Correct At A Glance


I see you say " Of course who really transfers numbers between LSL scripts uses hex strings anyway?" Me, I call hex to show the hex to me, as an argument of [[llOwnerSay]], when I'm learning stuff that involves hex, such as [[llGetObjectPermMask]] that we already now doc in terms of hex, ''e.g.'', saying what x2000 means in that context. Likely I'll also call hex when having the communication be in the form of LSL source fragments matters, as in [[Chatbot]].
See 2007-10-17 http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hex&oldid=35999 to read four old threads:


-- [[User:Ppaatt Lynagh|Ppaatt Lynagh]] 10:53, 10 October 2007 (PDT)
* 3 Principle Of Least Astonishment
* 5 Second Talk
* 6 First Talk
* 7 Our Growing Consensus


:Using hex or hexu for user output is totally valid, I was only ruling out it's use for script to script communications. In an instance like displaying the value of llGetObjectPermMask to the user you wouldn't want to use hex because it is a bit-field, having it display the sign and flip the bits would be very confusing, so hexu would be a better choice for bit-fields. -- [[User:Strife Onizuka|Strife Onizuka]] 20:28, 10 October 2007 (PDT)
See also [[Talk:Efficient Hex]].
 
2.
 
I'd like you to entertain the theory that I already understood every point you're making before you stated it, but that I'm inviting you to give attention to some other significant points also.
 
I think we're beginning to understand each other. I'm especially encouraged to see I guessed correctly that you would only ever call hexu, as you now confirm here. That is the choice that anyone who values mostly size and speed would make, yes.
 
I value clarity and conformity and size and speed, not just some of those, never always letting one trump all the others in every situation. For clarity in use and conformity to a widely accepted and much debated convention, I'd like to present a complete and correct implementation of the Python hex spec unchanged. I remember I created this page.
 
The Python hex spec has a documented history of moving from hexu to hex, as people who hold mainly to speed and size values clash with a wider community of people. At this moment our page here diverges from the Python hex spec only in that we return upper case at the hex level, same as at the hexu level. Perhaps we would all accept the compromise of calling hexu with the list of nybbles to return. Call with "0123456789ABCDEF" to get upper case back, call with "0123456789abcdef" to get lower case back, and meanwhile wish LSL let us specify default values for subroutine arguments.
 
For clarity in implementation, I liked having hex and hexu return lower and upper case respectively. Anyone understanding the code at a glance could tweak the code to get what they like, especially when assisted by comments like your comment that points people reading the code towards editing HEXC.
 
For clarity in implementation, I liked never using an assignment in a test. New people don't have to learn that idiom to read and correctly understand the code at a glance. Old people can trivially make that optimisation as they receive the code - it is a purely mechanical optimisation - people could even write a pre-processor to do that kind of transformation or even teach the client compiler to do it.
 
If you insist on presenting code optimised to the point of unreadability here, maybe we could compromise on presenting a couple of different versions together. Up front one version to read, then another version claiming to produce exactly the same results but smaller or quicker, both versions here together, rather than on confusingly separated pages like the [[Separate Words]] and [[ParseString2List]] pages.
 
Personally my history of pain in SL has been that I first run out of human time to read code, then I run out of script space to run code, then I run out of lag time to run code. I gather your history of pain has been different, I'm sorry to hear of your pain.
 
Am I yet more clear than mud? Wholly coherent? Partly persuasive?
 
-- [[User:Ppaatt Lynagh|Ppaatt Lynagh]] 10:39, 10 October 2007 (PDT)
 
:Providing multiple versions is a good idea and I almost did but but the differences are so tiny I didn't see the point.
:I've looked through [[http://www.google.com/search?q=hex+site:docs.python.org]
Python's documentation], I can't find any reference to what case the output should be. This isn't Python, it's LSL, we should be writing code that is best suited for LSL. If it's not important enough to make it into Python's documentation then it was intended to be implementation specific. We can still be standard compliant and use a single case. LSL is limited by memory and execution speed. Conserving both is important. Keeping compliance with a perceived specification from another programing language isn't.
 
:LSL is a bastard of a language (but so is Python but thats another discussion). In most programing languages, good programing practices revolve around breaking code up into readable chunks and using intermediate variables. Doing that in LSL is a bad programing practice, it slows down the code and wastes valuable memory. The LSL compile does not optimize code, intermediate variables are not optimized out, they stay on the stack until the function or event returns (or state changes). Variables declared in inner scopes are all given unique memory addresses on the stack, the address is not reused for other variables. Function calls are expensive in LSL, it's 18 bytes for a built-in function with no parameters or return, and 20 bytes for a user function with no parameters or return. The return costs 1 byte and each parameter costs how ever much to copy it onto the stack. Thats just the bytecode costs, there are stack costs too. LSL uses pass by value for every operation (the VM doesn't support pass by reference). The LSL memory space is 16KiB, computers haven't had that little memory to work in since the 1970's the concept of good programing practices wasn't even invented then.
 
:Default arguments is a compiler thing, after it's compiled you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if it was a default or not.
 
:The case of hex digits is only important to the user; there isn't a technical reason for a distinction. In an environment so limited and hostile to the programmer as LSL is, concessions need to be made. Is something only the user might appreciate really necessary?
 
:Constancy of case is easier for the user. Why should they return different cases? We shouldn't be inheriting other programing languages dogma without good reason. -- [[User:Strife Onizuka|Strife Onizuka]] 20:28, 10 October 2007 (PDT)

Latest revision as of 13:36, 29 October 2007

Talk:Hex Archives

See 2007-10-29 http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hex&oldid=38446 to read fourteen old threads:

  • 1 That Red Mist, Dispelled Maybe
  • 2 Solution
  • 3 Efficiency Tester vs. Code Racer
  • 4 llGetFreeMemory and llGetTime results
    • 4.1 Round Three
    • 4.2 Round Two
    • 4.3 Round One
  • 5 Different & Clever & Fast
  • 6 Third Talk
  • 7 197 bytes or more
  • 8 91+-2 milliseconds or more
  • 9 Neutral Point Of View
    • 9.1 You Deleting My Work, Me Deleting Your Work
    • 9.2 Why bother with fast or small or different code exemplars
  • 10 LSO, Defined
  • 11 Talk:Hex Archives

See 2007-10-24 http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hex&oldid=38020 to read five old threads:

  • 5 Edit Conflicts
  • 8 18 October Rewrite
  • 9 Loop Costs Unscientific
  • 11 Due Diligence
  • 12 Correct At A Glance

See 2007-10-17 http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hex&oldid=35999 to read four old threads:

  • 3 Principle Of Least Astonishment
  • 5 Second Talk
  • 6 First Talk
  • 7 Our Growing Consensus

See also Talk:Efficient Hex.

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