User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 01 10

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:01]	Redux Decosta:	=)
[17:01]	Rex Cronon:	i guess since there are problems with tp, there are also problems with logging in
[17:01]	Ryozu Kojima:	LOL
[17:01]	Vincent Nacon:	hmm are those horns coming out of your... ears?
[17:01]	Redux Decosta:	i know andrew & sidewinder are both gonna forget
[17:01]	Redux Decosta:	speaking of, hiya =)
[17:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Andrew put a box down in Brampton for us
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew; Redux was just telling us...
[17:02]	Redux Decosta:	oh neat
[17:02]	Redux Decosta:	=x
[17:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Haha
[17:02]	Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[17:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Don't worry Andrew, I'll kick Redux for yah
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I left a box with floating text.
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	It will get removed in 30 min.
[17:02]	Redux Decosta:	anyway i parceled off a 4096 for us. it's 16 by 16, and the table is located exactly at 128, 128 in the dead center of the sim
[17:03]	Redux Decosta:	so that should appease all the geeks in the group =)
[17:03]	Vincent Nacon:	oh look, someone on the table... dance!
[17:03]	Dita Takashi:	:o
[17:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Uh
[17:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I changed the parcel >_>
[17:03]	Vincent Nacon:	kidding
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, so every new person showing up arrives in the center
[17:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	To fit the stuff around us
[17:03]	Redux Decosta:	this lot is avialable in search & can stay here indefinately, & you guys are welcome to use the surrounding area as a sandbox for H4 stuff when we its redeployed on Agni
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if anyone else has been unable to access Beta Grid
[17:04]	Zwagoth Klaar:	beta grid login takes me to grid status page
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	looks like is offline
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	The beta grid has been down for db update, and then QA testing
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	and crashme sim is offline too
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	It may be available later tonight, dunno what the current status is.
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	From before hte upgrade
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Last I heard, right before I left the office today, Dan Linden was proclaiming it deployable, with warnings about 3 or 4 new bugs.
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder was anxious to get it done, but I spent all day focusing on bugs.
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler's brother used to make such contributions to the Microsloth ReadMe File
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, here's the latest news about the state of Havok4...
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	There is a mass properties bug in the to-be-deployed version that causes most objects to have slightly different mass, and probably larger than normal inertia tensors.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	The effect of large inertia tensors is that objects prefer to slide rather than roll.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	The masses should be approximately the same, but may vary, and the avatar definitely has the wrong mass.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	The good news is that I fixed all that last night or today.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	in the internal codebase
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, I'd expect another update next week with plenty of bug fixes in it. I think both Kelly and Simon have fixed a few bugs today.
[17:09]	Les White:	hiyas
[17:09]	Vincent Nacon:	heya
[17:09]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	That's really all I have on the announcements list.
[17:10]	Vincent Nacon:	ah not much I guess
[17:10]	Rex Cronon:	so, is the av mass higher or lower than it should be?
[17:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I guess without having anything to test since last meeting, not much to say
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	We haven't increased the avatar speed caps, but I think I'll try to increase them back up closer to 256.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Also, I haven't forgotten that someone asked for pseudo code outline of the llPushObject() code. I've got it written down on a little TODO list at my desk, but have been working hard on the mass properties stuff, and now vehicles.
[17:12]	Vincent Nacon:	but object's speed will be limited at 64 though?
[17:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Never heard that
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I think object velocities are limited elsewhere in the code. I'm not certain what the limit is, but I think it is 200 m/sec.
[17:13]	Vincent Nacon:	oh that should be good enough for most cases other than weapons
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, not much new to talk about since no one has been able to play with it for a while.
[17:13]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Is there going to be any tweaking of the auto deactivation of settled objects, they appear to be pretty high, or the spatial tolerance for considering settled. A stack of cubes will take as long as 15 seconds to consider itself settled while they appear to not move in the slightest.
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	We were talking in LL today wondering how to do the endgame deployment of Havok4
[17:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Zwagoth, we may be able to tweak the object settling eventually. It isn't very high on the list of things to do yet.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	The high items on the list are: fix vehicles, any other bugs that might prevent us from shipping it.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	We were thinking we would deploy Havok4 as an early experiment of the "het grid" project
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	the ability to run mulitple versions of simulator code at once
[17:16]	Les White:	would love it to be hot swappable for sim owners
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	however, the tools necessary for easy het grtid maintenance are not quite there yet
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and we wouldn't want to delay Havok4 for het grid tools to be written, if it were ready
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't clear what is going to happen, since Havok4 isn't quite ready, and we're not sure how long it would take the het-grid group to complete some features for us
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	i think that sandbox-weapons testing(SWT) might be in dire need of H4, as right now it seems there is a comptetition at to who can crash it the hardest, and keep it that way the longest:(
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Well... it turns out there are ways to crash Havok4. But it is much less crashy.
[17:18]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Yes, I think that most of the public sandboxes could benefit drasticly from the performance gain provided.
[17:18]	Vincent Nacon:	I wonder if those crashes are still related to Physic?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'll mention SWT to Sidewinder.
[17:18]	Vincent Nacon:	than script error or such?
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	He's managing the early adoptor's list.
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, there are are few script engine exploits
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	it is possible that i might be wrong with regards to swt
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	most of them involve resource leak exploitations that cause the simulator to run out of memory
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	usuallly is physics that are used to crash H1
[17:20]	Vincent Nacon:	so that's Mono job to stop the sim from crashing
[17:20]	Vincent Nacon:	I guess
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok4 project is waaaaay overdue.
[17:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	From scripts anyway
[17:20]	Redux Decosta:	not as overdue as the havok2 project ;)
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm getting really anxious to get it done.
[17:20]	Les White:	hehe
[17:21]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:21]	Vincent Nacon:	but how is Mono following up?
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... once Havok4 is done Havok2 will be much easier to do.
[17:21]	Arawn Spitteler recalls Havoc 4 is the Havoc 2 Project
[17:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hah
[17:21]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Yes, Havok 2, coming to a sim near you q1 2006.
[17:21]	Redux Decosta:	i've heard it rumored that we're expecting mono shortly after h4 is finished
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the mono project is under development
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I think there are at least two developer's working on it
[17:22]	Vincent Nacon:	only 2?
[17:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Something about a little freindly internal competition?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	and there are a few pressures building up on them
[17:22]	Redux Decosta:	2 is a lot better than 1
[17:22]	Redux Decosta:	its had like 1 person on it forever
[17:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Which is a lot better than none
[17:22]	Redux Decosta:	and sometimes 0
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	for instance, some of the crash modes that were found when I challenged people to crash Havok4 were actually script engine bugs
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	they aren't working toghether?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	and I think Babbage Linden has plans on fixing at least one of them in the work he is doing
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Well... Babbage was working on MONO by himself for more than a year
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	btw, who won that challenge:)
[17:24]	Redux Decosta:	oh uhhh, somewhat related. how long do you reckon until we can move to the new compiler?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	then it went on the backburner while we waited for the MONO probject to implement some stuff and fix some particular bugs
[17:24]	Kitto Flora:	Well thanks to the wretched enforced updates, and the autoupdaters both failing, I guess I missed any news. Was there any?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	then it sat on our plate for about 6 months once MONO had done what we were waiting for
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know enough to speculate on delivery of MONO
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	you'd have to ask Babbage. I think he also holds office hours
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	However, I do know that we've had a few internal previews of MONO
[17:25]	Vincent Nacon:	just checked.... he doesn't have one now
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	and there were rumblings about Babbage wanting to get some time on the preview grid that Havok4 is monopolizing
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? No office hours for Babbage? Huh.
[17:26]	Redux Decosta:	sorry; i meant compiling the source code on visual studio 2003, not the mono compiler
[17:26]	Vincent Nacon:	not on the wiki as it says
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... that. Vis Studio 2008 support is waiting for Havok4 to be merged back into the trunk
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	From what I understand, the viewer source is made for VS2003 because there are some intercode dependancies with the server source, which must be compiled with VS2003 due to Havok1
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	2008 already?
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Skipping 2005?
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	er... is it 2005? I'm out of touch on that.
[17:27]	Vincent Nacon:	why go 05 then there's 08?
[17:27]	Vincent Nacon:	heheh
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think the jabber from SLDEV list is that 2008 is too young
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	But yes, Havok1 lib dependencies are holding that back.
[17:28]	Vincent Nacon:	ah
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Also, there is a 64-bit effort gearing up at LL
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	2005 is established, bugfixed, QAed
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	and the 64-bit work also depends on Havok4, however we don't yet have 64-bit libs from the Havok developers
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Whereas 2008 is still a fairly young platfrom with a higher risk of bugs and such
[17:29]	Vincent Nacon:	ah true
[17:29]	Second Life:	Your object 'office hours moved to "Content to Hover" region' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Governor Linden from parcel 'Brampton Linden Stage' at Brampton 108.684, 152.333 due to parcel auto return.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	We suspect that there will be a noticable performance increase when we shift to 64-bit on the linux simulator hosts
[17:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That could prove rather nice
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	in what way though?
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The sims are running in 32bit mode on 64bit hardware?
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	brandwidth or script time?
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	Class 6(4) wims?
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	Most of the server hardware is 64-bit, but not running 64-bit software
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	bandwidth*
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ouch
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That could prove to be a huge performance gain
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	The performance boost is expected to affect all things really.
[17:31]	Les White:	could use a little of that :)
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	Will the older chass 4 sims ever go away?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Ian Linden ran some benchmarks a while ago and saw improvements around the board, as I recall.
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	yes, eventually class-4 will go away
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	got the percentage?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the timeline on that
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	however we may be moving out of one of our colo spaces soon as we move into others around the country
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Eeep
[17:32]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh fun
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Out of San Fran? Or Texas?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	any retirement of class-4's will probably co-incide with movements within colo facilities
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	We have 4 colo's that we use, I think, maybe 5.
[17:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Bring some to Kentucky so I can re-apply for QA.. lol >_>
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	One is in SF, another is in Texas.
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh same
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	or just go to ohio anyway O-o
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	The sim "in texas" have noticable lags.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	That may be true Kitto. I don't know the details of the problems with Texas.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if any of our Ops team hold office hours
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	Asset server transfer delays
[17:34]	Vincent Nacon:	I'd say it's the weather heat
[17:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't think they're hiring in Ohio either =(
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Zero Linden might know more about how Texas fits into the system, and any problems there
[17:35]	Kitto Flora prdeicts this sim is in Texas
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[17:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You would be correct Kitto LINDEN-RESE.edge3.Dallas1.Level3.net
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	I think you're right Kitto. All of the sim5000.agni hosts are in Texas, I believe.
[17:36]	Vincent Nacon:	so any further thoughts on physic damping for vehicle?
[17:36]	Kitto Flora traces the #
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Elaborate on that question Vincent, please.
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Yep. Dallas
[17:37]	Vincent Nacon:	smooth cross over prim edges?
[17:37]	Vincent Nacon:	like linden roads I guess
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Vincent, have you tested it in Havok4? What is your summary of the vehicle's problem with collisions with seams?
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't tested it recently. It's been a couple of months.
[17:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It think he's implying they snag on prim seams
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	it seem to have more effects from higher meches like tube and sphere than a box
[17:39]	Les White:	yes, bounce up and even back...though i haven't tested myself lately
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	the jumping effect
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	It turns out the snagging on seams is a problem in Haovk1 too, but Havok4's effect can be much more pronounced.
[17:40]	Les White:	for sure it is :)
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok4 vehicles have some ray-trace magic that actually makes it much less problematic than it could be, but it probably still needs work.
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	so I think prims would need a short range of tolerance in collision
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	I'm back looking at vehicles again this week
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	so I may be able to revisit that problem
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	ah ok
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	but probably not tomorrow... so maybe next week.
[17:41]	Les White:	(take a look at the vehicle banking params...they all seem pooched)
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	There are a few more annoying fundamental bugs I'm going to work on first.
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, there is a problem with banking
[17:41]	Vincent Nacon:	not sure if you have look into wheel motor param / suspension force code?
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	although... I fixed one bug there already. it is in the version that will be deployed tonight or tomorrow
[17:41]	Les White:	yay
[17:42]	Les White:	will there be a script call to detect the sims phsyics engine?
[17:42]	Zwagoth Klaar:	already possible
[17:42]	Redux Decosta:	there already is one i think
[17:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Not exactly
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	No, probably no script call for querying the physics engine version.
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	We talked about it
[17:42]	Redux Decosta:	llGetSimulatorVersion would be useful
[17:42]	Les White:	a way to allow us to change systems to make things behave the same
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	and Kelly did a little bit of design investigation
[17:43]	Zwagoth Klaar:	trying to move an object at a speed only h1 allows can allow you to query the version
[17:43]	Vincent Nacon getting the link for the wiki about the idea
[17:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Someone made a script that guess what engine is in use by sending a prim upward at high velocity
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	however, I think that Babbage had some longer-term plans around script querying of simulator features
[17:43]	Les White:	right. not really practical
[17:43]	Vincent Nacon:	got it, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetLinkMotorParam
[17:43]	Les White:	no build = no test
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	The problem with a quick and dirty solution to phys engine querying is that whatever we add to the scripting engine must be maintained forever
[17:44]	Les White:	right
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	and I think Babbage had some longer-term plans on how to go about it
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	and the project is outside the scope of Havok4
[17:45]	Redux Decosta:	actually it would be really useful to have a llGetSimParams function to get like.. number of prims on the sim, time dilation, etc, like PrimParams (list query etc)
[17:45]	Redux Decosta:	number of agents on the sim...
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	and... finally, the hope is that the Havok1/havok4 overlap period will be rather short
[17:45]	Les White:	yeah, Redux...something like that would be handy
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	i think u can already get number of prims in a parcel
[17:45]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah it'll be like pulling a bandaid real quick
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	You can already get sim TD
[17:46]	Vincent Nacon:	will be quick but painful
[17:46]	Les White:	i'm all for running it 100% from go! :)
[17:46]	Redux Decosta:	sure, but like... we can do llSetPos or llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION,
[17:46]	Redux Decosta:	it'd be way more organised in my mind to be able to grab a list of assorted sim details in 1 call
[17:47]	Redux Decosta:	kind of off topic tho
[17:47]	Zwagoth Klaar:	problem with running it 100% from go is that if a large bug is found its alot harder or smoothly roll things back to a point where it is not a big problem, without taking the grid offline
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	Not really. The topic list is fairly open
[17:47]	Vincent Nacon:	well it shouldn't be much of a problem since the sim is already feeding all of the data to the client
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	However, I'm currently busy working on one particular project ;-)
[17:47]	Vincent Nacon:	via Ctrl shift 1
[17:48]	Redux Decosta:	scripts arent' runnin client side last i checked ;)
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	is it top secret?
[17:48]	Vincent Nacon:	let me guess
[17:48]	Vincent Nacon:	Endorphin?
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	100% from go... yes there are problems there. The extended testing from early trials is one of the main reasons we're trying to make Havok4 available to some
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Which brings me back to the "het grid" problem. We don't have the tools for maintaining a large gradually growing Havok4 userbase
[17:50]	Redux Decosta:	sorry this probably has come up before, but how does h4 compare to h1 as far as bandwidth & hardware impact?
[17:50]	Redux Decosta:	or is the difference essentially minimal?
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	after about 100-200 regions running Havok4 we'd have trouble keeping the right regions updated with what they were supposed to be running
[17:50]	Redux Decosta:	also, has there been any tests runnin 4 havok4 sims on the same 1 machine?
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	No, we haven't really tested that yet Redux
[17:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'd think beta grid tests would have covered that
[17:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Except for void sims on the same machine
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	There have been a few annecdotal stories that it doesn't differ too much in most cases
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	however, the #1 goal is to fix the crash problems
[17:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Which I think would be more at risk than just a normal sim setup due to the resource sharing
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	My tests on the physics load showed that H4 is over 4x the load of H1.
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	we figure we could optimize if we had to
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	and if Havok4 is as fast a Havok1 then great
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Were you testing vehicles Kitto? What were the scenarios of your load testing?
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Vehicles. The details and figures are in the Jira bug report
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Vehicles are the big physics users
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I noticed I was able to lag a simulator with one vehicle... but only sometimes. I was going to try to focus on that problem for a bit tomorrow.
[17:53]	Les White:	must have been the dom shadow o-o
[17:53]	Vincent Nacon:	you mean something like Shadow
[17:53]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	No, it was the Zanshin Hover Car
[17:53]	Vincent Nacon:	or one of EM's cars
[17:54]	Les White:	o rly. i find hover vehicles to be pretty clean
[17:54]	Vincent Nacon:	depend on some of the features it comes with
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the cause of the load was a mystery
[17:54]	Les White:	though they seem to have an object updtae problem...if you move at a constant speed it will sink
[17:54]	Les White:	if you force object updates somehow...no sinking
[17:55]	Les White:	boats and such
[17:55]	Les White:	this is H1
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	I see you have this sim well loaded up now Ryozu
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Workin on it ;)
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've been rather head's down in the code for the last year or so
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	and have been ignoring the SL phenomenon overall, deleting important emails and such
[17:57]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:57]	Les White:	hehe!
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	I know you all must be big time investors in SL if you're hanging out at my office hours
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	but...
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	SVC-1094... the info on h4 cpu load
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	How do you guys see the trends around SL and LL? And what are your guesses as to the short-term future (next year or so) of this world?
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	Trends for what?
[17:59]	Les White:	i think you guys still hold the high ground
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	well it seem like people are kinda getting disappointed with SL after few while and leave while the signs up rate is going up
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Well, there is a little survey that shows up every once in a while when you login: Better or Worse?
[17:59]	Les White:	sun micro's wonderland looks hot...nothing else exciting to me
[17:59]	Les White:	i wouldnt say better
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	Its staying worse
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	the market ground is still going slow since the gambling ban
[18:00]	Les White:	you really need a way to meter resources...everything is over built
[18:00]	Les White:	noobs with 2 ms script time in bling laging sims
[18:00]	Les White:	it's really silly
[18:00]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	Though dont know what got fixed in latest WIdlight. I was about ready to give up on Widlight, and put up with all the extra crashes/lockups.
[18:00]	Les White:	need a way to ban by object as well. people rez a lag box and kill a sim...in total ignorance
[18:00]	Les White:	need a way to know how much CPU your item is draining
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	(Hehe, I still haven't installed windlight)
[18:00]	Les White:	and a way to limit it
[18:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Mind you Les, you're a bit more sensitive to script time than most people =P
[18:01]	Vincent Nacon:	I am too
[18:01]	Les White:	yes. dealing with racers and their 1/1000 of a second complaints :)
[18:01]	Vincent Nacon:	yup
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Then theres this Quicktime Messup. I downt want Quicktime, its unsupported now, and I keep getting spam from the cliant about it.
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	They're on the wrong platform =P
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's the funny thing
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've had like, no issue with Quicktime
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Anyways, as far as trends go with SL, internally, I'm out of touch
[18:02]	Les White:	perhaps you right and they should go play need for speed, but that's not the concept with the one world for all thing going on here
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	QT is unsupported on W2K now. SL client does not *realize* this.
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Externally, there's still huge stigmas against it
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder why Quicktime is the only thing we've hooked up.
[18:03]	Les White:	from what i understood way back when it came in...it was the only option that would work...cant recall why
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	cause Apple is begging on their knee for bit of fame
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	while Windows demains money
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Maybe it was Philip being a smartass toward RealMedia, his ex employer ;)
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	that too
[18:03]	Les White:	please....no realplayers o-o
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	just give me Windows' support and Flash
[18:04]	Kitto Flora:	QT was the only vid clent with resonable coverage, and a good API. And someone started at LL that knew about it :)
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	v5 flash and earlier works, Vince
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	Flash with clickable fuction
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	or html on prim in other words
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	picky picky
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	html on a prim might not support flash
[18:05]	Zwagoth Klaar:	quicktime is icky, security bugs everywhere, its slow and intrusive as a client, and its stopped working almost all together for me, I dont really want VLC either, real or anything, I just want something minimalistic, the whole idea behind mplayer and not overdoing everything makes it very attractive
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm not sure if mozlib has flash support
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, so when we don't have any Havok4 stuff to talk about I'll just ask you all to tell me what currently sucks the most in SL ;-)
[18:05]	Vincent Nacon:	about 90% of all flash need you to click on it to play anyway
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	As for SL membership - what I keep hearing is that effective new membership is dropping, and less people are buying.
[18:05]	Les White:	haha
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	SL needs to change a few things for new members
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	1) Better animations
[18:05]	Vincent Nacon:	I think over use of polygons in SL sucks the most
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	People get into Sl and feel like gimps
[18:05]	Redux Decosta:	i can't keep land in stock, it's selling faster now than it ever did =x
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Seriously
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Default walk is teh suck
[18:06]	Kitto Flora:	Train sales were way up before christmas. Jan 2 they hit rock-bottom. Are just staggering up again. Holliday hangovers?
[18:06]	Vincent Nacon:	like the water surface for one..... why does it have more than 2 polygons?
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	New User Interface, and not just a pretty new skin
[18:06]	Les White:	built in AO would be nice..the workaround ones on the market are just CPU eaters
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, default walk isn't very glamorous
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	SL is starting ot look pretty ugly next to a lot of the newer stuff
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	our terrain tools are awful
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	sorry to say it
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Terrain's not too horrible
[18:06]	Kitto Flora:	Land sales.. thats good news
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If you leave it on the high setting it can be ok
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	the whole "NORTHWEST" 4 texture swatch thing is infuriating
[18:06]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah not too bad once youre used to it
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	& you can't make ledges
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	or tunnels
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's true
[18:07]	Redux Decosta:	& the raise/lower terrian thing is VERY slow
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That also
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think an OS Dev was working on adding strength to the land editor brush
[18:07]	Les White:	you can script tools to beat the slow land stuff
[18:07]	Vincent Nacon:	but still wondering why the freaking water surface has more than 2 polygons?!
[18:07]	Les White:	also update bitmaps
[18:07]	Redux Decosta:	i saw a preview of that uhh... "chinese second life" thing, they had some AMAZING terrain tools; from someone whose done a lot of terraforming i was like "OMG THATS AWESOME! ;o;"
[18:07]	Les White:	rr, upload
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[18:07]	Redux Decosta:	i happen to love the default walk though; incedentally
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You're a nutcase Redux
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Alright everyone, I'm going to have to head out.
[18:08]	Les White:	thanks for the time Andrew
[18:08]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty, take care
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Also spazzy
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Later Andrew!
[18:08]	Kitto Flora:	Dinnertime!
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Redux, thank you for the meeting space.
[18:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sex Differences might be nice, so objects can say Sir or Madam
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Anything you want changed Andrew, just let me or Redux know
[18:08]	Vincent Nacon:	heheh
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	No, it works well.
[18:09]	Kitto Flora:	Ohhh GenderBits!
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps you can find other venue's to fill the meeting space
[18:09]	Kitto Flora:	@set me = M
[18:09]	Les White:	i think we need 3 or 4 genders around here :)
[18:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I uh.. I have no gender bits >_> lol
[18:09]	Vincent Nacon:	M? you sure?
[18:09]	Redux Decosta:	nah; i got like 12 void sims here and like 7 of them are empty
[18:09]	Redux Decosta:	gotta do somethin with em
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	here's an idea... if you guys want to talk to Babbage about MONO one of you should ask him to schedule a one-off office hour
[18:09]	Redux Decosta:	if we did mroe meeting areas i would do separate parcels
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	it would be cool to have a big chunk of land with dedicated meeting areas =)
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	If all he has to do is show up (and not work at finding a location and time) then I'm sure he'd be happy to do it.
[18:10]	Vincent Nacon:	how do we get a hold of him?
[18:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm just building a hollow megaprim cyberpunk city for laughs
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	*nods*
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	i'll talk to him about it
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	You can send email to babbage@lindenlab.com
[18:10]	Vincent Nacon:	bah... you just said you were deleting your emails
[18:10]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	i'll just iM him next time he's online
[18:10]	Les White:	haha
[18:11]	Andrew Linden:	I only delete the important emails
[18:11]	Redux Decosta:	hahaha
[18:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[18:11]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[18:11]	Vincent Nacon:	:P
[16:59]	office hours moved to "Content to Hover" region: Hello, Avatar!
[17:01]	Redux Decosta:	=)
[17:01]	Rex Cronon:	i guess since there are problems with tp, there are also problems with logging in
[17:01]	Ryozu Kojima:	LOL
[17:01]	Vincent Nacon:	hmm are those horns coming out of your... ears?
[17:01]	Redux Decosta:	i know andrew & sidewinder are both gonna forget
[17:01]	Redux Decosta:	speaking of, hiya =)
[17:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Andrew put a box down in Brampton for us
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew; Redux was just telling us...
[17:02]	Redux Decosta:	oh neat
[17:02]	Redux Decosta:	=x
[17:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Haha
[17:02]	Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[17:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Don't worry Andrew, I'll kick Redux for yah
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I left a box with floating text.
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	It will get removed in 30 min.
[17:02]	Redux Decosta:	anyway i parceled off a 4096 for us. it's 16 by 16, and the table is located exactly at 128, 128 in the dead center of the sim
[17:03]	Redux Decosta:	so that should appease all the geeks in the group =)
[17:03]	Vincent Nacon:	oh look, someone on the table... dance!
[17:03]	Dita Takashi:	:o
[17:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Uh
[17:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I changed the parcel >_>
[17:03]	Vincent Nacon:	kidding
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, so every new person showing up arrives in the center
[17:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	To fit the stuff around us
[17:03]	Redux Decosta:	this lot is avialable in search & can stay here indefinately, & you guys are welcome to use the surrounding area as a sandbox for H4 stuff when we its redeployed on Agni
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if anyone else has been unable to access Beta Grid
[17:04]	Zwagoth Klaar:	beta grid login takes me to grid status page
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	looks like is offline
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	The beta grid has been down for db update, and then QA testing
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	and crashme sim is offline too
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	It may be available later tonight, dunno what the current status is.
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	From before hte upgrade
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Last I heard, right before I left the office today, Dan Linden was proclaiming it deployable, with warnings about 3 or 4 new bugs.
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder was anxious to get it done, but I spent all day focusing on bugs.
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler's brother used to make such contributions to the Microsloth ReadMe File
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, here's the latest news about the state of Havok4...
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	There is a mass properties bug in the to-be-deployed version that causes most objects to have slightly different mass, and probably larger than normal inertia tensors.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	The effect of large inertia tensors is that objects prefer to slide rather than roll.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	The masses should be approximately the same, but may vary, and the avatar definitely has the wrong mass.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	The good news is that I fixed all that last night or today.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	in the internal codebase
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, I'd expect another update next week with plenty of bug fixes in it. I think both Kelly and Simon have fixed a few bugs today.
[17:09]	Les White:	hiyas
[17:09]	Vincent Nacon:	heya
[17:09]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	That's really all I have on the announcements list.
[17:10]	Vincent Nacon:	ah not much I guess
[17:10]	Rex Cronon:	so, is the av mass higher or lower than it should be?
[17:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I guess without having anything to test since last meeting, not much to say
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	We haven't increased the avatar speed caps, but I think I'll try to increase them back up closer to 256.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Also, I haven't forgotten that someone asked for pseudo code outline of the llPushObject() code. I've got it written down on a little TODO list at my desk, but have been working hard on the mass properties stuff, and now vehicles.
[17:12]	Vincent Nacon:	but object's speed will be limited at 64 though?
[17:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Never heard that
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I think object velocities are limited elsewhere in the code. I'm not certain what the limit is, but I think it is 200 m/sec.
[17:13]	Vincent Nacon:	oh that should be good enough for most cases other than weapons
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, not much new to talk about since no one has been able to play with it for a while.
[17:13]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Is there going to be any tweaking of the auto deactivation of settled objects, they appear to be pretty high, or the spatial tolerance for considering settled. A stack of cubes will take as long as 15 seconds to consider itself settled while they appear to not move in the slightest.
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	We were talking in LL today wondering how to do the endgame deployment of Havok4
[17:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Zwagoth, we may be able to tweak the object settling eventually. It isn't very high on the list of things to do yet.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	The high items on the list are: fix vehicles, any other bugs that might prevent us from shipping it.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	We were thinking we would deploy Havok4 as an early experiment of the "het grid" project
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	the ability to run mulitple versions of simulator code at once
[17:16]	Les White:	would love it to be hot swappable for sim owners
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	however, the tools necessary for easy het grtid maintenance are not quite there yet
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and we wouldn't want to delay Havok4 for het grid tools to be written, if it were ready
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't clear what is going to happen, since Havok4 isn't quite ready, and we're not sure how long it would take the het-grid group to complete some features for us
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	i think that sandbox-weapons testing(SWT) might be in dire need of H4, as right now it seems there is a comptetition at to who can crash it the hardest, and keep it that way the longest:(
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Well... it turns out there are ways to crash Havok4. But it is much less crashy.
[17:18]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Yes, I think that most of the public sandboxes could benefit drasticly from the performance gain provided.
[17:18]	Vincent Nacon:	I wonder if those crashes are still related to Physic?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'll mention SWT to Sidewinder.
[17:18]	Vincent Nacon:	than script error or such?
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	He's managing the early adoptor's list.
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, there are are few script engine exploits
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	it is possible that i might be wrong with regards to swt
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	most of them involve resource leak exploitations that cause the simulator to run out of memory
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	usuallly is physics that are used to crash H1
[17:20]	Vincent Nacon:	so that's Mono job to stop the sim from crashing
[17:20]	Vincent Nacon:	I guess
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok4 project is waaaaay overdue.
[17:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	From scripts anyway
[17:20]	Redux Decosta:	not as overdue as the havok2 project ;)
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm getting really anxious to get it done.
[17:20]	Les White:	hehe
[17:21]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:21]	Vincent Nacon:	but how is Mono following up?
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... once Havok4 is done Havok2 will be much easier to do.
[17:21]	Arawn Spitteler recalls Havoc 4 is the Havoc 2 Project
[17:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hah
[17:21]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Yes, Havok 2, coming to a sim near you q1 2006.
[17:21]	Redux Decosta:	i've heard it rumored that we're expecting mono shortly after h4 is finished
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the mono project is under development
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I think there are at least two developer's working on it
[17:22]	Vincent Nacon:	only 2?
[17:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Something about a little freindly internal competition?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	and there are a few pressures building up on them
[17:22]	Redux Decosta:	2 is a lot better than 1
[17:22]	Redux Decosta:	its had like 1 person on it forever
[17:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Which is a lot better than none
[17:22]	Redux Decosta:	and sometimes 0
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	for instance, some of the crash modes that were found when I challenged people to crash Havok4 were actually script engine bugs
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	they aren't working toghether?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	and I think Babbage Linden has plans on fixing at least one of them in the work he is doing
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Well... Babbage was working on MONO by himself for more than a year
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	btw, who won that challenge:)
[17:24]	Redux Decosta:	oh uhhh, somewhat related. how long do you reckon until we can move to the new compiler?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	then it went on the backburner while we waited for the MONO probject to implement some stuff and fix some particular bugs
[17:24]	Kitto Flora:	Well thanks to the wretched enforced updates, and the autoupdaters both failing, I guess I missed any news. Was there any?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	then it sat on our plate for about 6 months once MONO had done what we were waiting for
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know enough to speculate on delivery of MONO
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	you'd have to ask Babbage. I think he also holds office hours
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	However, I do know that we've had a few internal previews of MONO
[17:25]	Vincent Nacon:	just checked.... he doesn't have one now
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	and there were rumblings about Babbage wanting to get some time on the preview grid that Havok4 is monopolizing
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? No office hours for Babbage? Huh.
[17:26]	Redux Decosta:	sorry; i meant compiling the source code on visual studio 2003, not the mono compiler
[17:26]	Vincent Nacon:	not on the wiki as it says
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... that. Vis Studio 2008 support is waiting for Havok4 to be merged back into the trunk
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	From what I understand, the viewer source is made for VS2003 because there are some intercode dependancies with the server source, which must be compiled with VS2003 due to Havok1
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	2008 already?
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Skipping 2005?
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	er... is it 2005? I'm out of touch on that.
[17:27]	Vincent Nacon:	why go 05 then there's 08?
[17:27]	Vincent Nacon:	heheh
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think the jabber from SLDEV list is that 2008 is too young
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	But yes, Havok1 lib dependencies are holding that back.
[17:28]	Vincent Nacon:	ah
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Also, there is a 64-bit effort gearing up at LL
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	2005 is established, bugfixed, QAed
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	and the 64-bit work also depends on Havok4, however we don't yet have 64-bit libs from the Havok developers
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Whereas 2008 is still a fairly young platfrom with a higher risk of bugs and such
[17:29]	Vincent Nacon:	ah true
[17:29]	Second Life:	Your object 'office hours moved to "Content to Hover" region' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Governor Linden from parcel 'Brampton Linden Stage' at Brampton 108.684, 152.333 due to parcel auto return.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	We suspect that there will be a noticable performance increase when we shift to 64-bit on the linux simulator hosts
[17:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That could prove rather nice
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	in what way though?
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The sims are running in 32bit mode on 64bit hardware?
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	brandwidth or script time?
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	Class 6(4) wims?
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	Most of the server hardware is 64-bit, but not running 64-bit software
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	bandwidth*
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ouch
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That could prove to be a huge performance gain
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	The performance boost is expected to affect all things really.
[17:31]	Les White:	could use a little of that :)
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	Will the older chass 4 sims ever go away?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Ian Linden ran some benchmarks a while ago and saw improvements around the board, as I recall.
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	yes, eventually class-4 will go away
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	got the percentage?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the timeline on that
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	however we may be moving out of one of our colo spaces soon as we move into others around the country
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Eeep
[17:32]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh fun
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Out of San Fran? Or Texas?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	any retirement of class-4's will probably co-incide with movements within colo facilities
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	We have 4 colo's that we use, I think, maybe 5.
[17:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Bring some to Kentucky so I can re-apply for QA.. lol >_>
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	One is in SF, another is in Texas.
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh same
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	or just go to ohio anyway O-o
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	The sim "in texas" have noticable lags.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	That may be true Kitto. I don't know the details of the problems with Texas.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if any of our Ops team hold office hours
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	Asset server transfer delays
[17:34]	Vincent Nacon:	I'd say it's the weather heat
[17:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't think they're hiring in Ohio either =(
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Zero Linden might know more about how Texas fits into the system, and any problems there
[17:35]	Kitto Flora prdeicts this sim is in Texas
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[17:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You would be correct Kitto LINDEN-RESE.edge3.Dallas1.Level3.net
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	I think you're right Kitto. All of the sim5000.agni hosts are in Texas, I believe.
[17:36]	Vincent Nacon:	so any further thoughts on physic damping for vehicle?
[17:36]	Kitto Flora traces the #
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Elaborate on that question Vincent, please.
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Yep. Dallas
[17:37]	Vincent Nacon:	smooth cross over prim edges?
[17:37]	Vincent Nacon:	like linden roads I guess
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Vincent, have you tested it in Havok4? What is your summary of the vehicle's problem with collisions with seams?
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't tested it recently. It's been a couple of months.
[17:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It think he's implying they snag on prim seams
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	it seem to have more effects from higher meches like tube and sphere than a box
[17:39]	Les White:	yes, bounce up and even back...though i haven't tested myself lately
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	the jumping effect
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	It turns out the snagging on seams is a problem in Haovk1 too, but Havok4's effect can be much more pronounced.
[17:40]	Les White:	for sure it is :)
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok4 vehicles have some ray-trace magic that actually makes it much less problematic than it could be, but it probably still needs work.
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	so I think prims would need a short range of tolerance in collision
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	I'm back looking at vehicles again this week
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	so I may be able to revisit that problem
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	ah ok
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	but probably not tomorrow... so maybe next week.
[17:41]	Les White:	(take a look at the vehicle banking params...they all seem pooched)
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	There are a few more annoying fundamental bugs I'm going to work on first.
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, there is a problem with banking
[17:41]	Vincent Nacon:	not sure if you have look into wheel motor param / suspension force code?
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	although... I fixed one bug there already. it is in the version that will be deployed tonight or tomorrow
[17:41]	Les White:	yay
[17:42]	Les White:	will there be a script call to detect the sims phsyics engine?
[17:42]	Zwagoth Klaar:	already possible
[17:42]	Redux Decosta:	there already is one i think
[17:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Not exactly
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	No, probably no script call for querying the physics engine version.
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	We talked about it
[17:42]	Redux Decosta:	llGetSimulatorVersion would be useful
[17:42]	Les White:	a way to allow us to change systems to make things behave the same
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	and Kelly did a little bit of design investigation
[17:43]	Zwagoth Klaar:	trying to move an object at a speed only h1 allows can allow you to query the version
[17:43]	Vincent Nacon getting the link for the wiki about the idea
[17:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Someone made a script that guess what engine is in use by sending a prim upward at high velocity
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	however, I think that Babbage had some longer-term plans around script querying of simulator features
[17:43]	Les White:	right. not really practical
[17:43]	Vincent Nacon:	got it, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetLinkMotorParam
[17:43]	Les White:	no build = no test
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	The problem with a quick and dirty solution to phys engine querying is that whatever we add to the scripting engine must be maintained forever
[17:44]	Les White:	right
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	and I think Babbage had some longer-term plans on how to go about it
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	and the project is outside the scope of Havok4
[17:45]	Redux Decosta:	actually it would be really useful to have a llGetSimParams function to get like.. number of prims on the sim, time dilation, etc, like PrimParams (list query etc)
[17:45]	Redux Decosta:	number of agents on the sim...
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	and... finally, the hope is that the Havok1/havok4 overlap period will be rather short
[17:45]	Les White:	yeah, Redux...something like that would be handy
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	i think u can already get number of prims in a parcel
[17:45]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah it'll be like pulling a bandaid real quick
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	You can already get sim TD
[17:46]	Vincent Nacon:	will be quick but painful
[17:46]	Les White:	i'm all for running it 100% from go! :)
[17:46]	Redux Decosta:	sure, but like... we can do llSetPos or llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION,
[17:46]	Redux Decosta:	it'd be way more organised in my mind to be able to grab a list of assorted sim details in 1 call
[17:47]	Redux Decosta:	kind of off topic tho
[17:47]	Zwagoth Klaar:	problem with running it 100% from go is that if a large bug is found its alot harder or smoothly roll things back to a point where it is not a big problem, without taking the grid offline
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	Not really. The topic list is fairly open
[17:47]	Vincent Nacon:	well it shouldn't be much of a problem since the sim is already feeding all of the data to the client
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	However, I'm currently busy working on one particular project ;-)
[17:47]	Vincent Nacon:	via Ctrl shift 1
[17:48]	Redux Decosta:	scripts arent' runnin client side last i checked ;)
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	is it top secret?
[17:48]	Vincent Nacon:	let me guess
[17:48]	Vincent Nacon:	Endorphin?
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	100% from go... yes there are problems there. The extended testing from early trials is one of the main reasons we're trying to make Havok4 available to some
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Which brings me back to the "het grid" problem. We don't have the tools for maintaining a large gradually growing Havok4 userbase
[17:50]	Redux Decosta:	sorry this probably has come up before, but how does h4 compare to h1 as far as bandwidth & hardware impact?
[17:50]	Redux Decosta:	or is the difference essentially minimal?
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	after about 100-200 regions running Havok4 we'd have trouble keeping the right regions updated with what they were supposed to be running
[17:50]	Redux Decosta:	also, has there been any tests runnin 4 havok4 sims on the same 1 machine?
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	No, we haven't really tested that yet Redux
[17:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'd think beta grid tests would have covered that
[17:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Except for void sims on the same machine
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	There have been a few annecdotal stories that it doesn't differ too much in most cases
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	however, the #1 goal is to fix the crash problems
[17:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Which I think would be more at risk than just a normal sim setup due to the resource sharing
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	My tests on the physics load showed that H4 is over 4x the load of H1.
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	we figure we could optimize if we had to
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	and if Havok4 is as fast a Havok1 then great
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Were you testing vehicles Kitto? What were the scenarios of your load testing?
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Vehicles. The details and figures are in the Jira bug report
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Vehicles are the big physics users
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I noticed I was able to lag a simulator with one vehicle... but only sometimes. I was going to try to focus on that problem for a bit tomorrow.
[17:53]	Les White:	must have been the dom shadow o-o
[17:53]	Vincent Nacon:	you mean something like Shadow
[17:53]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	No, it was the Zanshin Hover Car
[17:53]	Vincent Nacon:	or one of EM's cars
[17:54]	Les White:	o rly. i find hover vehicles to be pretty clean
[17:54]	Vincent Nacon:	depend on some of the features it comes with
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the cause of the load was a mystery
[17:54]	Les White:	though they seem to have an object updtae problem...if you move at a constant speed it will sink
[17:54]	Les White:	if you force object updates somehow...no sinking
[17:55]	Les White:	boats and such
[17:55]	Les White:	this is H1
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	I see you have this sim well loaded up now Ryozu
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Workin on it ;)
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've been rather head's down in the code for the last year or so
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	and have been ignoring the SL phenomenon overall, deleting important emails and such
[17:57]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:57]	Les White:	hehe!
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	I know you all must be big time investors in SL if you're hanging out at my office hours
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	but...
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	SVC-1094... the info on h4 cpu load
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	How do you guys see the trends around SL and LL? And what are your guesses as to the short-term future (next year or so) of this world?
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	Trends for what?
[17:59]	Les White:	i think you guys still hold the high ground
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	well it seem like people are kinda getting disappointed with SL after few while and leave while the signs up rate is going up
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Well, there is a little survey that shows up every once in a while when you login: Better or Worse?
[17:59]	Les White:	sun micro's wonderland looks hot...nothing else exciting to me
[17:59]	Les White:	i wouldnt say better
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	Its staying worse
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	the market ground is still going slow since the gambling ban
[18:00]	Les White:	you really need a way to meter resources...everything is over built
[18:00]	Les White:	noobs with 2 ms script time in bling laging sims
[18:00]	Les White:	it's really silly
[18:00]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	Though dont know what got fixed in latest WIdlight. I was about ready to give up on Widlight, and put up with all the extra crashes/lockups.
[18:00]	Les White:	need a way to ban by object as well. people rez a lag box and kill a sim...in total ignorance
[18:00]	Les White:	need a way to know how much CPU your item is draining
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	(Hehe, I still haven't installed windlight)
[18:00]	Les White:	and a way to limit it
[18:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Mind you Les, you're a bit more sensitive to script time than most people =P
[18:01]	Vincent Nacon:	I am too
[18:01]	Les White:	yes. dealing with racers and their 1/1000 of a second complaints :)
[18:01]	Vincent Nacon:	yup
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Then theres this Quicktime Messup. I downt want Quicktime, its unsupported now, and I keep getting spam from the cliant about it.
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	They're on the wrong platform =P
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's the funny thing
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've had like, no issue with Quicktime
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Anyways, as far as trends go with SL, internally, I'm out of touch
[18:02]	Les White:	perhaps you right and they should go play need for speed, but that's not the concept with the one world for all thing going on here
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	QT is unsupported on W2K now. SL client does not *realize* this.
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Externally, there's still huge stigmas against it
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder why Quicktime is the only thing we've hooked up.
[18:03]	Les White:	from what i understood way back when it came in...it was the only option that would work...cant recall why
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	cause Apple is begging on their knee for bit of fame
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	while Windows demains money
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Maybe it was Philip being a smartass toward RealMedia, his ex employer ;)
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	that too
[18:03]	Les White:	please....no realplayers o-o
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	just give me Windows' support and Flash
[18:04]	Kitto Flora:	QT was the only vid clent with resonable coverage, and a good API. And someone started at LL that knew about it :)
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	v5 flash and earlier works, Vince
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	Flash with clickable fuction
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	or html on prim in other words
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	picky picky
[18:04]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	html on a prim might not support flash
[18:05]	Zwagoth Klaar:	quicktime is icky, security bugs everywhere, its slow and intrusive as a client, and its stopped working almost all together for me, I dont really want VLC either, real or anything, I just want something minimalistic, the whole idea behind mplayer and not overdoing everything makes it very attractive
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm not sure if mozlib has flash support
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, so when we don't have any Havok4 stuff to talk about I'll just ask you all to tell me what currently sucks the most in SL ;-)
[18:05]	Vincent Nacon:	about 90% of all flash need you to click on it to play anyway
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	As for SL membership - what I keep hearing is that effective new membership is dropping, and less people are buying.
[18:05]	Les White:	haha
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	SL needs to change a few things for new members
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	1) Better animations
[18:05]	Vincent Nacon:	I think over use of polygons in SL sucks the most
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	People get into Sl and feel like gimps
[18:05]	Redux Decosta:	i can't keep land in stock, it's selling faster now than it ever did =x
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Seriously
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Default walk is teh suck
[18:06]	Kitto Flora:	Train sales were way up before christmas. Jan 2 they hit rock-bottom. Are just staggering up again. Holliday hangovers?
[18:06]	Vincent Nacon:	like the water surface for one..... why does it have more than 2 polygons?
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	New User Interface, and not just a pretty new skin
[18:06]	Les White:	built in AO would be nice..the workaround ones on the market are just CPU eaters
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, default walk isn't very glamorous
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	SL is starting ot look pretty ugly next to a lot of the newer stuff
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	our terrain tools are awful
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	sorry to say it
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Terrain's not too horrible
[18:06]	Kitto Flora:	Land sales.. thats good news
[18:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If you leave it on the high setting it can be ok
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	the whole "NORTHWEST" 4 texture swatch thing is infuriating
[18:06]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah not too bad once youre used to it
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	& you can't make ledges
[18:06]	Redux Decosta:	or tunnels
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's true
[18:07]	Redux Decosta:	& the raise/lower terrian thing is VERY slow
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That also
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think an OS Dev was working on adding strength to the land editor brush
[18:07]	Les White:	you can script tools to beat the slow land stuff
[18:07]	Vincent Nacon:	but still wondering why the freaking water surface has more than 2 polygons?!
[18:07]	Les White:	also update bitmaps
[18:07]	Redux Decosta:	i saw a preview of that uhh... "chinese second life" thing, they had some AMAZING terrain tools; from someone whose done a lot of terraforming i was like "OMG THATS AWESOME! ;o;"
[18:07]	Les White:	rr, upload
[18:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[18:07]	Redux Decosta:	i happen to love the default walk though; incedentally
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You're a nutcase Redux
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Alright everyone, I'm going to have to head out.
[18:08]	Les White:	thanks for the time Andrew
[18:08]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty, take care
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Also spazzy
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Later Andrew!
[18:08]	Kitto Flora:	Dinnertime!
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Redux, thank you for the meeting space.
[18:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sex Differences might be nice, so objects can say Sir or Madam
[18:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Anything you want changed Andrew, just let me or Redux know
[18:08]	Vincent Nacon:	heheh
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	No, it works well.
[18:09]	Kitto Flora:	Ohhh GenderBits!
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps you can find other venue's to fill the meeting space
[18:09]	Kitto Flora:	@set me = M
[18:09]	Les White:	i think we need 3 or 4 genders around here :)
[18:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I uh.. I have no gender bits >_> lol
[18:09]	Vincent Nacon:	M? you sure?
[18:09]	Redux Decosta:	nah; i got like 12 void sims here and like 7 of them are empty
[18:09]	Redux Decosta:	gotta do somethin with em
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	here's an idea... if you guys want to talk to Babbage about MONO one of you should ask him to schedule a one-off office hour
[18:09]	Redux Decosta:	if we did mroe meeting areas i would do separate parcels
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	it would be cool to have a big chunk of land with dedicated meeting areas =)
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	If all he has to do is show up (and not work at finding a location and time) then I'm sure he'd be happy to do it.
[18:10]	Vincent Nacon:	how do we get a hold of him?
[18:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm just building a hollow megaprim cyberpunk city for laughs
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	*nods*
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	i'll talk to him about it
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	You can send email to babbage@lindenlab.com
[18:10]	Vincent Nacon:	bah... you just said you were deleting your emails
[18:10]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[18:10]	Redux Decosta:	i'll just iM him next time he's online
[18:10]	Les White:	haha
[18:11]	Andrew Linden:	I only delete the important emails
[18:11]	Redux Decosta:	hahaha
[18:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[18:11]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[18:11]	Vincent Nacon:	:P
[18:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hehe, alright. Later Andrew
[18:11]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye
[18:11]	Les White:	thanks again Andrew. bye everyone!
[18:11]	Zwagoth Klaar:	bye andrew
[18:11]	Vincent Nacon:	later all
[18:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Okay, who stuck the murdered furry in the water fountain?
[18:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm off to expand the concept of "Hello Avatar!"
[18:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Redux??
[18:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's just Chibi
[18:12]	Redux Decosta:	thats a pretty awesome avatar
[18:12]	Redux Decosta:	hey chibi, you should play with using invisiprims to hav elike
[18:12]	Redux Decosta:	a hole blown in your chest
[18:12]	Redux Decosta:	shotgun wound style
[18:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[18:12]	Redux Decosta:	internal ribcage & heart, etc
[18:13]	Redux Decosta:	that'd be awesome
[18:13]	Zwagoth Klaar:	iz free, I forget where you can get it