User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 08 04

• [2009/08/04 11:00] Meeter: Welcome to Linden office hours
• [2009/08/04 11:00] reddot99 Republic: jump ardy :p
• [2009/08/04 11:00] Bau Ur: I don't understand what you mean about getting other mentors mad at you strom
• [2009/08/04 11:00] Bau Ur: but I'm not mad at you :)
• [2009/08/04 11:01] xstorm Radek: OMG!! the balls have broke me texture
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Bau Ur: hmm is that better than the texture breaking your balls?
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: o_o
• [2009/08/04 11:01] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)~[2009/08/04 11:01] Bau Ur: but really the balls shoudl not do that.
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Simon Linden: hello
• [2009/08/04 11:01] reddot99 Republic: hey simon,
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hullos.
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Rex Cronon: hello simon
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Phantom Ninetails: Greetings, Simon
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Yuu Nakamichi: Hi Simon
• [2009/08/04 11:01] Bau Ur: they are different tints of justone texture and should not be taxing your viewer much. Their physics is what makes them burdensome.
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Jehan Jameson: Hello Simon
• [2009/08/04 11:02] xstorm Radek: hi Simon
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Tree Kyomoon: Simon!
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Uni Ninetails: Hey Simon
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Ardy Lay: I didn't do it. :-)
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Bau Ur: Xstrom that texture loss on the avatar is happening in various forms for no apparent reason to a lot of people. It is in the JIRA.
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Xugu Madison: hi Simon!
• [2009/08/04 11:02] Phantom Ninetails: Psh, I can make a stack of sphers much more interesting than that
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Phantom Ninetails: spheres even
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Bau Ur: I am sure you can. I am rather easily amused it seems :)
• [2009/08/04 11:03] xstorm Radek: no im testing the texture
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Rex Cronon: hmm. ball griefing?
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Bau Ur: I enjoy it for the colors mostly.
• [2009/08/04 11:03] xstorm Radek: this is a texture test
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Phantom Ninetails: unscripted and they balance perfectly.
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Simon Linden: That wasn't the goal, it was trying to reprodue SVC-3895
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895
• [#SVC-3895] Rezzing Mono scripted object cripples sim FPS
• [2009/08/04 11:03] Bau Ur: Sok Xstrom, did the physical balls actually affect your texture rendering????
• [2009/08/04 11:04] Phantom Ninetails: Yeah, just saying.. :P
• [2009/08/04 11:04] Uni Ninetails: lol xstorm your just a floating wig today
• [2009/08/04 11:04] reddot99 Republic: erm, simon, it needs to be a complex scripted object
• [2009/08/04 11:04] TeaCup whispers: Tea Time!!
• [2009/08/04 11:04] Bau Ur: So, good thing he is loved for his mind...
• [2009/08/04 11:04] Simon Linden: Andrew's not coming today -- he's buried in fixing some permissions bug before a deadline
• [2009/08/04 11:04] xstorm Radek: no it did not im testing snowglobe
• [2009/08/04 11:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi is on Snowglobe.
• [2009/08/04 11:04] Bau Ur: Simon, what deadline? Is there going to be a viewer update soon, after all?
• [2009/08/04 11:05] reddot99 Republic: but he said ask him tuesday about the mouselook thing,
• [2009/08/04 11:05] Xugu Madison: I was thinking server 1.30 to go to QA? :)
• [2009/08/04 11:05] Chantal Harvey: hello
• [2009/08/04 11:05] Rex Cronon: hi
• [2009/08/04 11:05] Arawn Spitteler wonders if Permissions are supposed to work, now: I don't suppose CG is within shouting range
• [2009/08/04 11:05] Simon Linden: I'm actually not sure ... we just rolled 1.27.1 out last week, and the next server (which will be version 1.30) is already branched
• [2009/08/04 11:06] xstorm Radek: i found out that some old scripts if you mix them can do some bad things
• [2009/08/04 11:06] Simon Linden: I assume it's something they want to get into 1.30
• [2009/08/04 11:06] Uni Ninetails: sighs my cache is taking a massive dump...
• [2009/08/04 11:06] reddot99 Republic: oh that reminds me, phantom andd i discovered yet a nother bulk permission issue
• [2009/08/04 11:07] Simon Linden: If you can describe it in a notecard and send to Andrew, that would be best
• [2009/08/04 11:07] Bau Ur: Heheh...loose lips sink ships...
• [2009/08/04 11:07] Simon Linden: Permissions tend to give me a bad headache :(
• [2009/08/04 11:07] reddot99 Republic: we can repro duce it consistently
• [2009/08/04 11:07] reddot99 Republic: its veiwerside
• [2009/08/04 11:07] reddot99 Republic: well part is,
• [2009/08/04 11:08] xstorm Radek: it seems the old fly script works the wrong way now
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Phantom Ninetails: Viewer side? But it really did give me access to one of your scripts it shouldn't have
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Simon Linden: Are you checking on Snowglobe? That has a recent viewer-side fix in bulk permissions
• [2009/08/04 11:08] reddot99 Republic: rc canidae,
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Rex Cronon: wb tree. did u crash?
• [2009/08/04 11:08] reddot99 Republic: canidate foor 1.23
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Phantom Ninetails: I'm using 1.23
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Tree Kyomoon: wow my first low level freeze in SL in a while
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Chantal Harvey: snowglobe crashed me just now, lol
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Chantal Harvey: and does strange things to my flying, walking
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Xugu Madison: (Snowglobe 1.1.2 is out for anyone who hasn't noticed, BTW)
• [2009/08/04 11:08] xstorm Radek: you will have more tree
• [2009/08/04 11:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I've not had Snowglobe crash on me once yet.
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yeah, I got 1.1.2 this morning (it's evening for me now).
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Chantal Harvey: you must have seen me crash, just now
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Tree Kyomoon: whats snowglobe?
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Chantal Harvey: me too, this morning
• [2009/08/04 11:09] xstorm Radek: im still looking at a bug in Snowglobe 1.1.0 (2565) Jul 26 2009 09:44:05 (Snowglobe Test Build)
• [2009/08/04 11:09] reddot99 Republic: simon, this one takes two minutes to repro
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Simon Linden: Snowglobe is another SL viewer with a more active code development group
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Bau Ur: How in the world will LL keep up with the proliferation of viewers? Or will they not even try?
• [2009/08/04 11:09] JayR Cela: ahh new stable SnowGlobe version / KOOL :_)
• [2009/08/04 11:09] Simon Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe
• [2009/08/04 11:09] reddot99 Republic: i think they rely on people sending patchs to jira
• [2009/08/04 11:10] Bau Ur: Does Snowglove hve its oown JIRA?
• [2009/08/04 11:10] Tree Kyomoon: neat thanks, that helps. Is it more stable than the regular type?
• [2009/08/04 11:10] Simon Linden: SL's founder, Philip, is behind it ... it's his tech work now that he's not president
• [2009/08/04 11:10] JayR Cela: well Greenlife / emerald is totaly botched this past week
• [2009/08/04 11:10] reddot99 Republic: erm, i mean 3rd party viewer stuff,
• [2009/08/04 11:10] Simon Linden: I don't know about crash rates, but I hear it's pretty good ... I use it as well
• [2009/08/04 11:10] Xugu Madison: It's parallel to the main client, isn't it? I mean, as opposed to preview viewers that end up as main viewers eventually, Snowglobe has changes merged individually into main?
• [2009/08/04 11:10] xstorm Radek: OMG!! Philip did it ;-) he he he
• [2009/08/04 11:11] Tree Kyomoon: oh nice...hope to see some neato land procedurals finally
• [2009/08/04 11:11] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I've really enjoyed using Snowglobe so far. That large textures not rezzing bug gets me with my avatar's eyes at times but it's not much of a problem.
• [2009/08/04 11:11] Xugu Madison: Bau, Snowglobe has its own section under the JIRA (SNOW instead of VWR), but shares the SL JRIA
• [2009/08/04 11:11] reddot99 Republic: why do you have a big texture on the eyes?
• [2009/08/04 11:11] Bau Ur: Thank you Xu. I had not realized that.
• [2009/08/04 11:11] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ask the creator. :)
• [2009/08/04 11:11] JayR Cela: yeah some textures in SnOWgLOBE DO NOT REZZ CORECTLY
• [2009/08/04 11:11] xstorm Radek: Simon are we not under a NDA not to talk about it or was that the NDA not to talk about ?
• [2009/08/04 11:12] Simon Linden: I haven't been closely involved, but it seems to have a much better development cycle than our regular OS releases ... code fixes from outside LL get into it much easier and quicker
• [2009/08/04 11:12] Bau Ur: Big eye textures allow eye movement as a different part of the texture is shown in sequence.
• [2009/08/04 11:12] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ah, that's true Bau.
• [2009/08/04 11:12] Tree Kyomoon had "big texture on the eyes" for a while but theres a new experimental treatment for that
• [2009/08/04 11:12] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)~[2009/08/04 11:12] Simon Linden: Yes, all this is not covered under NDA, so please don't bring up anything that shouldn't be public knowledge of whatever stuff you're doing
• [2009/08/04 11:12] Simon Linden: I try to do the same :)
• [2009/08/04 11:12] reddot99 Republic: nda?
• [2009/08/04 11:13] reddot99 Republic: oh nondisclosure
• [2009/08/04 11:13] xstorm Radek: good good
• [2009/08/04 11:13] Simon Linden: Non-Disclosure Agreement
• [2009/08/04 11:13] Bau Ur: Open source projects have NDAs???
• [2009/08/04 11:13] Bau Ur: Interesting.
• [2009/08/04 11:13] reddot99 Republic: simon, did andrew ever look at that mouselook bug?
• [2009/08/04 11:13] Simon Linden: Not that I know of
• [2009/08/04 11:13] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)~[2009/08/04 11:13] JayR Cela: is open source / there is no such thing as NDA's
• [2009/08/04 11:13] Simon Linden: Bau - I don't think Snowglobe has an NDA involved with it
• [2009/08/04 11:14] reddot99 Republic: damn, i was hoping for a definitive answer today,
• [2009/08/04 11:14] xstorm Radek: no no it has not just the NDA has one
• [2009/08/04 11:14] Tree Kyomoon: is andrew here?
• [2009/08/04 11:14] Simon Linden: There are some people, and I really don't know specific individuals, who are sometimes under NDA with LL so we can talk about plans and features to make sure we're not totally messing things up :)
• [2009/08/04 11:14] reddot99 Republic: he's doing permissions work simon said,
• [2009/08/04 11:15] Simon Linden: Andrew can't make it this week
• [2009/08/04 11:15] JayR Cela: there are no NDA's in open source code / perhaps a particular project with a company and propieatry code
• [2009/08/04 11:15] reddot99 Republic: not thrusday either?
• [2009/08/04 11:15] Xugu Madison: Did we have a specific plan apart from covering the place in balls?
• [2009/08/04 11:15] Bau Ur: I :)
• [2009/08/04 11:15] xstorm Radek: hi Open
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Opensource Obscure: hello everybody
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Bau Ur: Hi!
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Rex Cronon: hi jayr
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Uni Ninetails: hihi
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Chantal Harvey: hi
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Rex Cronon: hiopen
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Bau Ur: I am interested in leanring whether any progress is being made in identifying the causes of slow degradation of region performance over time.
• [2009/08/04 11:16] Bau Ur: Also I would liek to know if there is way that one can learn what other regions are on the same server as one's own.
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Simon Linden: Bau - I just ran a 24 hour test of the scripts and objects in SVC-3895
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Bau Ur: Cool Simon.
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Phantom Ninetails: MISC-2329
• [2009/08/04 11:17] reddot99 Republic: yeah, and if i may make a request, make it so that anyone can see mainland script times?
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2329
• [#MISC-2329] Ever rising "sim time (other)" up to 100s of ms
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Arawn Spitteler reclls you simply visit them, and look at what servers they're on
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Simon Linden: There was no degradation, so it's not a simple "run a script and it makes things slower"
• [2009/08/04 11:17] Bau Ur: What about starting and restarting the scripts though.
• [2009/08/04 11:18] Simon Linden: It might be "run a NEW script" but I'm not sure of that either
• [2009/08/04 11:18] reddot99 Republic: its a complex script both moving between sims with the states and the loke,
• [2009/08/04 11:18] Opensource Obscure: (( Meeter doesn't know about SVC-3895 ? ))
• [2009/08/04 11:18] reddot99 Republic: like i think,
• [2009/08/04 11:18] reddot99 Republic: it said it earlier
• [2009/08/04 11:18] Rex Cronon: seems that tree likes crashing
• [2009/08/04 11:18] Bau Ur: Arwn I am not asking "What server is this region on"? I am asking "What other regions are on this server?"
• [2009/08/04 11:19] Simon Linden: Well, I had 5 rezzers running and they created 100,000s of scripted objects, and there was no degradation or leak, so something else is going on ... that's about it
• [2009/08/04 11:19] Arawn Spitteler: I understand it's when the server has to communicate, that one sim lags another, so not having archetypes to rez from, would help temp rez objects to lag all sims
• [2009/08/04 11:19] reddot99 Republic: also, i can quite easily cause sim lag,
• [2009/08/04 11:19] Simon Linden: I may try to script a region crossing object and see if that can slow things down
• [2009/08/04 11:19] Bau Ur: Interesting.
• [2009/08/04 11:19] reddot99 Republic: its not the simple scripts that cause lag on rez
• [2009/08/04 11:20] reddot99 Republic: its complex ones that an instance of doesnt already exist in the sim i believe
• [2009/08/04 11:20] Simon Linden: Sure, it's easy to lag a sim with a complex object or a AV with lots of HUD scripts, but the problem we're facing is that after a re-boot, everything is fine, but a week or two later, the same thing will really slow down the region
• [2009/08/04 11:20] Ardy Lay: Simon, did your rezzed objects have a listener in their scripts?
• [2009/08/04 11:20] Simon Linden: So something happens ... memory fragmentation or bloat, some resource leak, we're not sure yet
• [2009/08/04 11:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We seem to be suffering from something like that in FN Alpha.
• [2009/08/04 11:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: But after even a day.
• [2009/08/04 11:20] xstorm Radek: i was thinking about the problems of to many rezzed Phisic based items and people rezzing up to 1000 or more,.. im starting to think that it can be fix so the sims FPS will not drop or even endup in a loop
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Most of the time, the sim crashes.
• [2009/08/04 11:21] reddot99 Republic: fn alpha?
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Bau Ur: I am glad you are working on it, Simon. Thank you for the update.
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Susie Chaffe: Simon if you want me to send a boat back and forward across a particlar region...easy to set up
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Simon Linden: Ardy - no, they were the timer as in SVC-3895
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: FurNation Alpha. It has at least 10,000 scripts running at a time.
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Opensource Obscure: Simon, could you also make some automated avatars with scripts attached teleport betweeen regions?
• [2009/08/04 11:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We keep getting frequent crashes and serious lag in there.
• [2009/08/04 11:21] reddot99 Republic: ah, some of the sandbox regions get to 40000 during severe greifer attacks
• [2009/08/04 11:21] xstorm Radek: yes thats what im seeing its like a memory leek and the sim is stuck not what needs to happen next
• [2009/08/04 11:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We catch those in seconds. :)
• [2009/08/04 11:22] Simon Linden: yeah, they'll definitely get bogged down with that many scripts
• [2009/08/04 11:22] reddot99 Republic: yeah but its not that sort of attack, its a very sutble one,
• [2009/08/04 11:22] JayR Cela: I run XP and Ubuntu / i see the memory leaks in XP / but not Linux
• [2009/08/04 11:23] JayR Cela: so whats up with that ?
• [2009/08/04 11:23] reddot99 Republic: i found objects with 228 scripts per prim,
• [2009/08/04 11:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We've had someone do that before.
• [2009/08/04 11:23] xstorm Radek: may be there needs to be sim settings from sim to sim for what scripts need to be turn off if to many scrip calls for things like Rez
• [2009/08/04 11:23] reddot99 Republic: and they were tiny,
• [2009/08/04 11:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 450 mono scripts in a single prim.
• [2009/08/04 11:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Sandbox crashed twice.
• [2009/08/04 11:23] JayR Cela: also the standard viewer does not release memory on closing with XP
• [2009/08/04 11:24] JayR Cela: but SnowGlobe does release all memory on close
• [2009/08/04 11:24] Ardy Lay blames the sound library.
• [2009/08/04 11:24] reddot99 Republic: watch this simon,
• [2009/08/04 11:24] Simon Linden: JayR - hmm, that sounds like a viewer issue. Not sure what's going on, but if you can figure out a way to reproduce it, there's probably a jira somewhere that could use the info
• [2009/08/04 11:24] Arawn Spitteler recalls: Open Source Viewers can be freed from memory leaks, but Linden Labs couldn't vouch for the code
• [2009/08/04 11:24] reddot99 Republic: odd, no degradation here from that,
• [2009/08/04 11:25] Yuu Nakamichi: Just to recap, is SVC-3895 a problem with LSL as well or just mono?
• [2009/08/04 11:25] xstorm Radek: think of this if there was a estate or sim setting for parcles to turn off the rezzer script if its going past a set number in this case 2000 rezzed griefer items
• [2009/08/04 11:26] Simon Linden: It's also possible that the degradation is related to something else on the same server - two busy regions, for example
• [2009/08/04 11:26] reddot99 Republic: are all regions sharing servers at the present time?
• [2009/08/04 11:26] Yuu Nakamichi: Do you see freezes with either, after a few days?
• [2009/08/04 11:26] Simon Linden: Yuu - it seems most people think it's worse with mono
• [2009/08/04 11:26] Simon Linden: It may be that mono just uses more memory, and memory is the problem
• [2009/08/04 11:26] Ardy Lay: Simon, in the places that I have reproduced that issue there are always several (>5) "Child Agents", if that makes a difference.
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Yuu Nakamichi: ok, I am wondering if there's a way to isolate this along VMs
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Simon Linden: Hmm, that's an interesting clue
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Opensource Obscure: Yuu: there are at least 4 regions on any server i think.
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Bau Ur: How often do the servers reapportion their work loads and rearrange which regions are on which server?
• [2009/08/04 11:27] reddot99 Republic: child agents is people who can see into the region your in,
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Ardy Lay: Eyharts, Gidzenko, Perry, Lusk, Rizal and Tehama.
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Bau Ur: Is it automatic and periodic, or manual and problem pbased, or what?
• [2009/08/04 11:27] Arawn Spitteler: Have we done any experiments with regioins that are known to share servers?
• [2009/08/04 11:28] JayR Cela: Mono / how can you run an interpereted language on top of anothe interperated language (LSL) and not expect oddball problems to occur
• [2009/08/04 11:28] reddot99 Republic: its hard to track them down,
• [2009/08/04 11:28] Simon Linden: Bau - they are likely to move to another server if restarted, but not during a rolling restart. I think they stay put during those
• [2009/08/04 11:28] Ardy Lay: I should try it in Weatherguard if I can get permission.
• [2009/08/04 11:28] JayR Cela: that has got to be one of the dumbest things LL has done so far
• [2009/08/04 11:28] Bau Ur: If that is the case, then, people asking for region resstarts are helping you redistribute the work better, aren't they?
• [2009/08/04 11:28] Arawn Spitteler: When a server version has only four sims, in Aditi, that wold be same server
• [2009/08/04 11:29] reddot99 Republic: lsl was poorly done the first time,
• [2009/08/04 11:29] Simon Linden: JayR - they aren't on top of each other. There is common code underneath (like a routine to play a sound, for example) but the interpeters are different
• [2009/08/04 11:29] JayR Cela: Simon I disagree
• [2009/08/04 11:30] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is half over
• [2009/08/04 11:30] reddot99 Republic: simon works on the code, its one compiled or the other compiled
• [2009/08/04 11:30] reddot99 Republic: not both,
• [2009/08/04 11:30] Simon Linden: yes, unfortunately when LSL was done there were other interpreters that did what was required well - run _lots_ of little scripts, etc. I wasn't around then, but that's the company lore
• [2009/08/04 11:30] Simon Linden: err, were NOT other...
• [2009/08/04 11:30] JayR Cela: reddot & simon / you are running 2 interperaters
• [2009/08/04 11:31] JayR Cela: interpators
• [2009/08/04 11:31] reddot99 Republic: only when the sim compiles it into byte code
• [2009/08/04 11:31] JayR Cela: there are gonna be problems
• [2009/08/04 11:31] Arawn Spitteler wonders if any mention's been made of SVC-22 and SVC-93 : Have we any good examples, of Mixed Reality? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mixed_Reality
• [2009/08/04 11:31] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
• [#SVC-22] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
• [2009/08/04 11:31] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
• [#SVC-93] llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_ROTATION and llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
• [2009/08/04 11:31] Simon Linden: Right, JayR, there are two inside the sim - one for LSL, one for Mono. But they are side-by-side, not one on top of the other
• [2009/08/04 11:31] JayR Cela: Simon / ahhhhh / so this creates another problem
• [2009/08/04 11:32] Simon Linden: Well, I don't have any news about those jiras, except we did have a big meeting Monday with managers about the performance and region crossing issue
• [2009/08/04 11:33] Simon Linden: So it's getting some more attention
• [2009/08/04 11:33] JayR Cela: two side by side interperators competing for processor time slice cycles / untill multi threading on dual core or greater / will cause difficult issues
• [2009/08/04 11:33] reddot99 Republic: it might be that people are mistaking asset requests for script lag,
• [2009/08/04 11:33] Simon Linden: There was one fix in 1.27.1 that should help with a lot of the crossing failures
• [2009/08/04 11:33] Arawn Spitteler: If'd we'd archetypal objects, on servers but not rezzed, they could rez when all links had arrived in world
• [2009/08/04 11:33] Yuu Nakamichi: and it seems to Simon
• [2009/08/04 11:33] Susie Chaffe: the fix in 1.27.1 has made an incredible difference to region crossings
• [2009/08/04 11:33] Arawn Spitteler rode the rails, yesterday, and fell off
• [2009/08/04 11:34] Simon Linden: JayR - unfortunately we're not very well multi-threaded, but I understand what you mean. It pretty much runs through a list of scripts and executes each in turn
• [2009/08/04 11:34] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hm...that fix hasn't made any difference to me. :(
• [2009/08/04 11:34] Arawn Spitteler: I often can't tell, if I've fallen off the rails, or am rubberbanding
• [2009/08/04 11:34] Susie Chaffe: in the last 24 hours - 15,000 sim crossings...no failures due to region disconnects
• [2009/08/04 11:34] JayR Cela: Simon / Thank You :_)
• [2009/08/04 11:35] reddot99 Republic: also, i noticed that theres a new sim crasher that overloads a sim with incomming assets
• [2009/08/04 11:35] Mealea Ying: scripts actualy dont compete for anything as I recal... scripts are the lowest priority things running arnt they?
• [2009/08/04 11:35] Simon Linden: I think that fix plus the restart helped, but I'd be surprised if we're not seeing that slow degradation again soon
• [2009/08/04 11:36] Yuu Nakamichi: what is a usual memory footprint for scripts on a sim?
• [2009/08/04 11:36] Simon Linden: Mealea - yes, they are run at the end of the main frame loop - it does the physics, rezzing, messaging, etc first, then runs scripts for whatever time remains, while always doing some minimal amount
• [2009/08/04 11:36] Rex Cronon: reddot99 i think i have a fix for tha:)
• [2009/08/04 11:36] Yuu Nakamichi: the viewer stats window allows us to see the allocated physics mem, so if that's way off, it can be reported...
• [2009/08/04 11:36] JayR Cela: degradition seems to be on the client side / and release of no longer needed memory assets
• [2009/08/04 11:36] Rex Cronon: for that*
• [2009/08/04 11:36] Yuu Nakamichi: but how about scripts
• [2009/08/04 11:37] Simon Linden: Yuu - I'm not sure, that's one thing I want to learn more about. I have a suspicition that Mono is really large, and that means much bigger chunks of data when we have to package it all up and go to another region
• [2009/08/04 11:37] Yuu Nakamichi: ic
• [2009/08/04 11:37] Simon Linden: ... which means more network traffic and delays
• [2009/08/04 11:37] Phantom Ninetails: I have been asking Babbage to get something into the statistics floater for script memory usage, but I haven't gotten much positive response on it
• [2009/08/04 11:37] JB Hancroft: Simon... can any of that packaging be pre-cached, as an AV approaches a sim edge?
• [2009/08/04 11:37] Mealea Ying rubs the key with a soft cloth, shining it, as a nice gesture.
• [2009/08/04 11:37] Xugu Madison: There was a suspicision it might be the JIT compilation when a script first arrives in a sim...
• [2009/08/04 11:38] JayR Cela: speaking of unnescery network traffic / when will UDP be finally a piece of LL history ?
• [2009/08/04 11:38] Simon Linden: JB - yeah, we've had a lot of discussions about ways to improve that, and that's one idea
• [2009/08/04 11:38] Simon Linden: JayR - not soon enough :)
• [2009/08/04 11:38] Opensource Obscure: Xugu: I recall something about scripts encypted digital signature management (?)
• [2009/08/04 11:38] Jehan Jameson: and is there anyway to make the connection to the new sim before breaking the old one to avoid the time when the vehicle is out of control?
• [2009/08/04 11:38] JayR Cela: Simon / LOL / OK thanks for the honest answer
• [2009/08/04 11:38] Simon Linden: We'll probalby keep some repeating update messages as UDP, but other than that, everything should be TCP
• [2009/08/04 11:39] Bau Ur: I don't understand why mainland region woners dont' have access to all the information tools of islands. They could help provide information and participate in problemsolving.
• [2009/08/04 11:39] Xugu Madison: Opensource, hadn't heard about it, but it's something I was hoping for...
• [2009/08/04 11:39] Simon Linden: Bau - I don't really know the answer, or what exactly the differences are there
• [2009/08/04 11:40] Arawn Spitteler: Region Owners aren't estate owners. Linden Labs is Estate Owner for Mainland regions
• [2009/08/04 11:40] reddot99 Republic: gah, something pulled me from my connection some how,
• [2009/08/04 11:40] Yuu Nakamichi: thus tools like top scripts are not available to them
• [2009/08/04 11:40] Simon Linden: That would make sense ... if there are estate tools, they wouldn't be available to mainland region owners
• [2009/08/04 11:40] Simon Linden: Hmm, but I don't see why top scripts shouldn't be available to a region owner
• [2009/08/04 11:40] reddot99 Republic: oh, speaking of estates, can you make it so everyone can VEIW mainland script times?
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Yuu Nakamichi: which could help track down issues
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Xugu Madison: reddot99, AFAIK Babbage is working on it for parcel owners, at least
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Mealea Ying: yes that would help a lot Xugu
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Phantom Ninetails: I have been asking Babbage to get something into the statistics floater for script memory usage, but I haven't gotten much positive response on it
• [2009/08/04 11:41] reddot99 Republic: region or not, even nonowners i mean,
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Yuu Nakamichi: they could find out what laggy scripts they are running on their own land
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Yuu Nakamichi: for example
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Yuu Nakamichi: and improve performance for the sim as a whole
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Simon Linden: Babbage is doing some script resource work ... trying to level the usage a bit so one parcel won't hog too much, for example
• [2009/08/04 11:41] Xugu Madison: I _think_ that's what Babbage rushed off to do last Wednesday. Will ask at his hour tomorrow
• [2009/08/04 11:42] JayR Cela: Laggy scripts are usually caused by sloppy code
• [2009/08/04 11:42] Arawn Spitteler: I'd like to be able to see what scripts I'm wearing, and which are top scripts
• [2009/08/04 11:42] Bau Ur: Much of the lag that people complain about is of their own doing, but they dont' have the tools to assess it or even see the reaolity of how their choices affect the whole.
• [2009/08/04 11:42] reddot99 Republic: like for on sandbox regions,
• [2009/08/04 11:42] Yuu Nakamichi: +1 bau
• [2009/08/04 11:42] Simon Linden: I totally agree ... we'd like to improve those tools so builders can do better
• [2009/08/04 11:42] reddot99 Republic: i want to know who i should report when theres 50+ms script time,
• [2009/08/04 11:43] reddot99 Republic: in goguen and cordova,
• [2009/08/04 11:43] Bau Ur: reddot, exactly.
• [2009/08/04 11:43] Phantom Ninetails: Oh yeah, Simon, do you know what "Pump IO" is in statistics, often I see that as the only thing lagging an otherwise perfect sim
• [2009/08/04 11:43] reddot99 Republic: thats not a remotely unreasonable request,
• [2009/08/04 11:44] Arawn Spitteler: Maybe you could file a support ticket under Region Issues?
• [2009/08/04 11:44] reddot99 Republic: erm, basic account,
• [2009/08/04 11:44] Simon Linden: yeah, that's time spent handling network traffic ... dealing with request responses, etc. It doesn't say which specific ones, however
• [2009/08/04 11:44] Arawn Spitteler: So've I
• [2009/08/04 11:44] Bau Ur: Arwn, we could, but we don't know who to report for unfair use of resources when we can't see usage.
• [2009/08/04 11:45] Simon Linden: yeah, I can see a good argument for letting parcel owners know the Top Scripts for stuff on their land
• [2009/08/04 11:45] Opensource Obscure: and they can hardly stop use those scripts if they dont even know they are so .. resource hogs
• [2009/08/04 11:45] Phantom Ninetails: Hmm, strange that it would be taking up so much time then.. Er, shouldn't Net Time be the time spent handling network traffic?
• [2009/08/04 11:45] Mealea Ying: actualy I would like to be able to add the ability to see script impact to scripts them selves and alow them to use that information to "back off" a bit if needed, Davide and I already have lag limits built in based on timedilation and stuff and that would be a tremendous feature
• [2009/08/04 11:45] Arawn Spitteler: Support Ticket for Region Issues, rather than an AR. You could also AR the region owner, as "It's probably someone else."
• [2009/08/04 11:46] reddot99 Republic: erm, now why would i ar governer linden?
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Bau Ur: :) one could.
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Mealea Ying: crappy builds?
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Haha.
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Phantom Ninetails: lol
• [2009/08/04 11:46] JB Hancroft: lol
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Simon Linden: Mealea - that's the kind of thing Babbage is working on ... being able to detect and cut back on over-use
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Bau Ur: Just plug his name into the person picker.
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Arawn Spitteler: Crappy Service
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Opensource Obscure: AR against governor linden are ok, in general, if appropriate.
• [2009/08/04 11:46] reddot99 Republic: i said why,
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Mealea Ying: cool, thanks Babbage!
• [2009/08/04 11:46] Arawn Spitteler: I think it's understood, we don't always have the corect name to AR
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Simon Linden: Well, definitely report Gov. L. if you find a build that's lagging a sim :)
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Opensource Obscure: yeah more information about what we're doing will be good.
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Mealea Ying: just pick someone at random!
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Mealea Ying grins!
• [2009/08/04 11:47] JB Hancroft: I always just Mealea... works like a charm :)
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Rex Cronon: u can try M linden:)
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Bau Ur: I know of a couple cases where LL has asked someone to remove objects from his property becuase they were such resource hogs, and the person was angry becuase there was no way to show him how much trouble in the region or server was his responsibility. And he isn't a jerk, or at least not much of a jerk. Plain data woudl have satisfied him. "We think your thing is too greedy" was not satisfactory.
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Simon Linden: I'd like the same building feature for physics ... more feedback on the cost of an object to the physics engine
• [2009/08/04 11:47] JB Hancroft: "just use Mealea's name..." that is
• [2009/08/04 11:47] Mealea Ying: yep! it was me! I did it and I want to do it again and again and again!
• [2009/08/04 11:48] reddot99 Republic: ll, i forgot, you cant find q linden in search because the search term was too short gets spit out
• [2009/08/04 11:48] Simon Linden: Yeah, there were some good examples of that when we switched to Havok4 for the physics engine ... I remember some waves and fish rezzers that just killed some regions
• [2009/08/04 11:48] Bau Ur: waves ugh
• [2009/08/04 11:49] JB Hancroft waves back...
• [2009/08/04 11:49] Bau Ur: :)
• [2009/08/04 11:49] reddot99 Republic: when do hinges return?
• [2009/08/04 11:49] Simon Linden: These were physical objects so they would detect the shoreline and llDie(), but since they were complex shapes, they added a lot of data to the Havok engine and it slowed down
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Mealea Ying: Simon is there a map showing a very large area of SL wind?
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Bau Ur: oh great queston.
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Arawn Spitteler: Area of Wind?
• [2009/08/04 11:50] reddot99 Republic: there is no way to get sl wind data on a large scale
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Bau Ur: a live map that shows the movement of wind.
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Simon Linden: I don't know about wind at all
• [2009/08/04 11:50] reddot99 Republic: currently,
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Arawn Spitteler'd like a map of Access Lines and Public Throoughfare
• [2009/08/04 11:50] Bau Ur: I suppose one could place a large number of windsocks .
• [2009/08/04 11:51] Mealea Ying: yes, like a map of a large number of sims with the wind patern superimposed
• [2009/08/04 11:51] Rex Cronon: btw simon i also talked to dan linden about that anticrash device and he didn't seem to be against it. so, i guess i will start selling it:)
• [2009/08/04 11:51] reddot99 Republic: access lines on the minimap would be great,
• [2009/08/04 11:51] Mealea Ying: Arawn, me too!
• [2009/08/04 11:51] reddot99 Republic: rezx, i still want that thing explained, to be honest,
• [2009/08/04 11:51] reddot99 Republic: rex,
• [2009/08/04 11:51] Simon Linden: Bau - I seem to remember a demo of that - someone covered a region in wind socks, but I can't find the link to it
• [2009/08/04 11:52] reddot99 Republic: my curiousity about it hurts, lol
• [2009/08/04 11:52] Bau Ur: I saw one in 2006 like that, SImon.
• [2009/08/04 11:52] JB Hancroft nods... Rex - explain the anti-crash device sometime?
• [2009/08/04 11:52] Arawn Spitteler imagines the Wind, running across the Grid, in Socks
• [2009/08/04 11:52] Yuu Nakamichi: SL wind seems a bit like AOs - everyone is using a scripted replacement
• [2009/08/04 11:52] Mealea Ying: I discovered somethig about SL wind that I find interesting it seems if you let go of something that drifts in it eventualt it will come back to you (provided it dosent get snagged)
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Bau Ur: :) karmic wind
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Simon Linden: There's probably some metaphor there ...
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Bau Ur: boomerang wind
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Bau Ur: hippy love wind. "If you love something, set it free..."
• [2009/08/04 11:53] JB Hancroft: several, and most of them bad....
• [2009/08/04 11:53] reddot99 Republic: i use the wind if particles, i only lower the intensity by a workaround,
• [2009/08/04 11:53] reddot99 Republic: in,'
• [2009/08/04 11:53] JayR Cela: thanks for the meeting / everyone / gotta go / byeeee :_)
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Simon Linden: Bye, see you next time
• [2009/08/04 11:53] JB Hancroft: Bye JayR
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Uni Ninetails: cya!
• [2009/08/04 11:53] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you. :o
• [2009/08/04 11:54] Rex Cronon: tc jayr
• [2009/08/04 11:54] reddot99 Republic: i want to build a proper trebuchet, but i need hinges to return for it to work remotely well,
• [2009/08/04 11:54] JB Hancroft: "hinges"... drool.....
• [2009/08/04 11:54] reddot99 Republic: provided hinges have friction settings
• [2009/08/04 11:54] Arawn Spitteler: Why not use mechanical hinges?
• [2009/08/04 11:54] Rex Cronon: it basically deprives some types of crashing script(s)/object(s) of the resources needed to crash the sim
• [2009/08/04 11:54] Rex Cronon: :)
• [2009/08/04 11:54] Phantom Ninetails: Hinges would be nice.
• [2009/08/04 11:54] Simon Linden: ah, yes, I wish I had time to work on features like wind and hinges
• [2009/08/04 11:55] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is almost over
• [2009/08/04 11:55] Mealea Ying grins! we do too!
• [2009/08/04 11:55] Simon Linden: Just to be able to set the rotation center on an object would be huge
• [2009/08/04 11:55] reddot99 Republic: hinges are hiding in some commented out code i think,
• [2009/08/04 11:55] Yuu Nakamichi: hmmm
• [2009/08/04 11:55] Simon Linden: Yep, there was a bunch of work on joints and linked objects that isn't enabled. I don't know exactly why, but I assume because it doesn't work :)
• [2009/08/04 11:56] Rex Cronon: is not the magic silver bullet
• [2009/08/04 11:56] reddot99 Republic: no, it took too much time on havok one
• [2009/08/04 11:56] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: My SL partner has been working on scripted joints.
• [2009/08/04 11:56] Simon Linden: That's probabaly true
• [2009/08/04 11:56] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: he's done amazing work so far.
• [2009/08/04 11:56] reddot99 Republic: from everything i've heard,
• [2009/08/04 11:56] reddot99 Republic: i also found promises that hinges would return in havok 4 i think, lol
• [2009/08/04 11:57] JB Hancroft: I've done joints in scripts, but the app-level load is high, instead of being in the platform/physics engine
• [2009/08/04 11:57] Simon Linden: We've definitely talked about them, it's one of the things Andrew would love to build
• [2009/08/04 11:57] JB Hancroft: Simon - apologies if you've already covered it... what your top 3 priorities?
• [2009/08/04 11:57] reddot99 Republic: i would think havok has an hinge system internally implemented
• [2009/08/04 11:58] JB Hancroft: *are
• [2009/08/04 11:58] Rex Cronon: we could finally have robotic arms that move realistically:)
• [2009/08/04 11:58] Simon Linden: I'm currently on a project that's not annouced yet, so can't give you details. Other than that, I tend to work on server bugs
• [2009/08/04 11:59] Phantom Ninetails: There's one other thing I wanna mention before the hour ends: SVC-422
• [2009/08/04 11:59] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-422
• [#SVC-422] A solution to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions
• [2009/08/04 11:59] reddot99 Republic: is there a code or project name for it?
• [2009/08/04 11:59] reddot99 Republic: or just a one word hint?
• [2009/08/04 11:59] Xugu Madison: "Project Awesome Thing We Can't Tell The Residents About"
• [2009/08/04 11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Block transactions in sandboxes would so help the "no selling" rules in most of them.
• [2009/08/04 11:59] Uni Ninetails: Project: Drive the resies nurs with secret projects
• [2009/08/04 11:59] Uni Ninetails: &nuts
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to Linden office hours
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Bau Ur: :) Thank you for the mmeting, Simon.
• [2009/08/04 12:00] reddot99 Republic: also, i bet you could fix the avatar collision issues by moving to havok 6 or seven, when 7 comes out,
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Xugu Madison: Thank you for hosting, Simon!
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Uni Ninetails: tyty
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Simon Linden: Hmm, that does seem interesting. I don't really understand the details, but seems like a good idea
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Arawn Spitteler: If someone wants to rez vendors in sandboxes, perhaps they'd like a map, for how to break into Langly?
• [2009/08/04 12:00] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Xugu Madison: Didn't they stop numbering Havok releases a few years back, and now it's Havok FX or somesuch?
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Thanks for the meeting, Simon. :)
• [2009/08/04 12:01] reddot99 Republic: doubtful,
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Phantom Ninetails: I hope he means SVC-422 is interesting :P
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Simon Linden: We'd probably want some space so poeple could actually build and test vendors, tho.
• [2009/08/04 12:01] JB Hancroft: thanks Simon :) tc
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Xugu Madison: Let people only pay themselves?
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Bau Ur: ah SImon! Is there a CraashMe sim still?
• [2009/08/04 12:01] reddot99 Republic: all programs have internal version numbers
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Bau Ur: a place to test dnagerous things without getting in trouble?
• [2009/08/04 12:01] Simon Linden: Dan Linden used to run Crash Me ... I don't know if it's up or not
• [2009/08/04 12:02] reddot99 Republic: no there isnt, help me bug dan about it
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Bau Ur: Thank you.
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It's been gone for a while.
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Phantom Ninetails: Well Simon, I think that money events should still be useable by owners, but not by non-owners
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Rex Cronon: crashme crashed forever it seems:(
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Simon Linden: someone really killed it :)
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Rex Cronon: u can try things on beta
• [2009/08/04 12:02] reddot99 Republic: he removed it since he seems to have though havok has been totally stablized,
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Arawn Spitteler: When there was a prize, for crashing Crashme, I should havewon, but my method was too obscure
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Bau Ur: Beta is no longer open to just everyone.
• [2009/08/04 12:02] Bau Ur: Grumble.
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Rex Cronon: bye simon
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Arawn Spitteler: Aditi is restricted?
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Rex Cronon: what u mean beta is no longer open?
• [2009/08/04 12:03] reddot99 Republic: partially, you dont have a clear method in,
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Simon Linden: I don't know of any new restrictions on it
• [2009/08/04 12:03] reddot99 Republic: you have to enable it in a normal veiwer
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Xugu Madison: Aditi takes a while to get acccounts copied from main... that's possibly it?
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Arawn Spitteler: Oh, you haven't opened the Widget, in Snowglobe?
• [2009/08/04 12:03] Trinity Coulter: the Wiki explains exactly how to get in, and its simple
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Phantom Ninetails: CTRL+SHIFT+G
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Simon Linden: ctrl-alt-shift-G, or some similar combination at the login screen
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Phantom Ninetails: On the login screen.
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Trinity Coulter: not restricted at all
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Arawn Spitteler: <ctrl><alt>d - <ctrl><alt>v - <ctrl><shft>g
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Trinity Coulter: unless your avie is just too young
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Xugu Madison: Must run, take care all!
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Arawn Spitteler: We just can't see, when we've entered View Admin Options
• [2009/08/04 12:04] reddot99 Republic: i want a way to get things into beta grid faster
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Rex Cronon: tc
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Simon Linden: Me too - thanks again, bye...
• [2009/08/04 12:04] JB Hancroft: ye Xugu
• [2009/08/04 12:04] JB Hancroft: *b
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Bye Simon.
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Phantom Ninetails: Fare well Simon
• [2009/08/04 12:04] Uni Ninetails: cya!
• [2009/08/04 12:05] Chantal Harvey: bye an ty
• [2009/08/04 12:05] Yuu Nakamichi: see you later Simon