User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2008 09 24

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[7:59]	Babbage Linden:	afternoon
[7:59]	Nock Forager:	Hi
[7:59]	Nock Forager:	(still rezzing)
[7:59]	Fake Fitzgerald:	just midnight in Japan
[8:01]	Babbage Linden:	hi nock
[8:01]	Beware Hax:	hi
[8:01]	Miteki Ling:	Hello
[8:02]	Babbage Linden:	hi miteki and beware
[8:02]	Miteki Ling:	hi^^
[8:03]	Babbage Linden:	i'll give it a couple of minutes and then begin
[8:03]	Babbage Linden:	let me ping the groups too
[8:05]	Cale Flanagan:	hello
[8:05]	Babbage Linden:	hmm, we need some more chairs
[8:05]	Andromeda Quonset:	lol
[8:05]	Babbage Linden:	sitting on the spokes and spinning is fun too
[8:05]	Nock Forager:	yup :)
[8:05]	Cale Flanagan:	i only need a hole:)
[8:06]	Cale Flanagan:	ouch
[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	ok, it's gone 5 past, let's start with an update of where we are with mono
[8:06]	Cale Flanagan:	MISC-9999 Wheel on Babbage Kitchen blocked
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	unfortunately we needed to include some urgent fixes in 1.24.6 server
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	so that didn't go out last week
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	but the pilot roll happened yesterday
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	and the rest of the grid should follow this week
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	it includes some further hardening of mono script objects
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	which shuold help SVC-2908
[8:08]	Dimentox Travanti:	hey babbage
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	hi dimentox
[8:09]	Roberto Salubrius:	I came and didn't say hi so... hello !
[8:09]	Data Landau:	hi all
[8:09]	Babbage Linden:	it also includes fixes for
[8:09]	Andromeda Quonset:	This is the first of anyone's office hour i ever attemded, i usually read transcripts.
[8:09]	Babbage Linden waits for jira to load
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	VWR-8997
[8:10]	Linegirl McMillan looks
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	(actually that will be in the next 1.21 viewer RC)
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	SVC-3080
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	SVC-3072: Error message using llBase64ToString under Mono
[8:10]	Dimentox Travanti:	Babbage did you adddress the Jira i dfont know the number with the system reflection error while searilisation?
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	SVC-2973: MONO - timer() event triggers before on_rez() and state_entry()
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	SVC-3030: MONO only: An IF that checks a function that returns a void
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	(which becomes a compile errror)
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	SVC-2347: User defined integer variable called rez will not compile
[8:11]	Roberto Salubrius:	so all of those are solved now ?
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	and SVC-2403: Mono Beta: Full recompile of an object (Mass Recompile doesn't return errors)
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	these should all be fixed in 1.24.6
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	which is on the preview grid
[8:12]	Roberto Salubrius:	ok
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	and being rolled out across the grid at the moment
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	once that roll is complete
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	there are no crash bugs or problems with scripts running on the LSO VM remaining
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	that we know of, rather
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	so the plan is to let the grid rest a week
[8:13]	Roberto Salubrius:	is there any work going on on: VWR-199
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	and then start the 1.25 deploy
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	which will likely have another batch of less urgent mono fixes
[8:13]	Roberto Salubrius:	that is mis filled should be a SVC but it is a VWR
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	as well as new features that have been waiting for mono to stabalise
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	yes, it's a scripting bug
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	but not due to Mono
[8:13]	Dimentox Travanti:	SVC-2908?
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	it's actually a UI problem
[8:14]	Roberto Salubrius:	no it's and old one
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	which was introduced by the LSL picking functionality
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	dimentox, there are lots of fixes for SVC-2908
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	which should improve the situation a lot
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	there may be remaining problems causing .NET error messages
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	but they should be greatly reduced
[8:15]	Dimentox Travanti:	i am wondering if i can deploy dcs as mono yet... I guess ill have to do some testing
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	I'm looking forward to seeing if anything remains
[8:15]	Dimentox Travanti:	Yeah ill do testing today
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	I think there may be a problem with event dequeing
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	dimentox, try it on a 1.24.6 region
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	as that has our latest set of fixes
[8:16]	Roberto Salubrius:	listeners are still persisting during event changes ?
[8:16]	Linegirl McMillan:	how many regions runs that version?
[8:16]	Linegirl McMillan:	this is a Second Life Server 1.24.5.96115
[8:16]	Babbage Linden:	no roberto, that was fixed a while ago
[8:16]	Babbage Linden:	linegirl, there are about 1000 regions in the pilot
[8:16]	Roberto Salubrius:	ok I tought you meant the dequeing related to that...
[8:16]	Babbage Linden:	including all the sandboxes i think
[8:16]	Linegirl McMillan:	ok..
[8:16]	Roberto Salubrius:	what did you mean by dequeing ?
[8:17]	Babbage Linden:	no roberto, the bug i think may still exist is an invalid index exception
[8:17]	Babbage Linden:	caused be dequeing an empty event list
[8:17]	Babbage Linden:	but it may be resolved
[8:17]	Roberto Salubrius:	oh ok .
[8:17]	Roberto Salubrius:	ty
[8:18]	Dimentox Travanti:	ok can you make toxia north west that version
[8:18]	Dimentox Travanti:	its my test area
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	dimentox, it will be in the next couple of days if it's not already
[8:18]	Dimentox Travanti:	ok
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	and i think toxia is still available on the preview grid
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	which should all be 1.24.6 now
[8:18]	Dimentox Travanti:	ok
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	so, that's where we are now
[8:18]	Dimentox Travanti:	ill do it there then
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	any questions?
[8:19]	Roberto Salubrius:	do we have a relase date for RC1.2x to become the main viewer .. not mono related but to see about the new touch functions
[8:19]	Roberto Salubrius:	when we can mainstream them
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	not sure yet roberto
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	there are still a lot of outstanding issues i think
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	and 1.20 took a long time to become the mainline viewer
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	some people are still using 1.19 too
[8:20]	Dimentox Travanti:	Babbage, do you know of the offline LSL exitro... Is there any possible we can get code completion/intelisense for the editor
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	so it will be a while before you can assume the pick functinos are available on the client
[8:20]	Roberto Salubrius:	oustanding issues Server Side or Client Side ?
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	roberto, viewer side
[8:21]	Roberto Salubrius:	ok
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	the RC and viewer process shouldn't be gated on any server changes at this point
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	dimentox, i don't know of any plans for intellisense
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	(although i didn't know about the line number changes until they happened, so you never know)
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	i'd like to work towards allowing more external languages and tools
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	rather than improving our own
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	as it's not our core business
[8:22]	Linegirl McMillan:	java?
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	probably c# first
[8:22]	Dimentox Travanti:	I just want true OOP and c# :P
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	then maybe ruby and python
[8:22]	Roberto Salubrius:	I would like to see all that in the editor, sometimes is just... well... you guys code you know
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	although they're much harder
[8:23]	Babbage Linden mostly uses emacs and bash
[8:23]	Babbage Linden:	although i do appreciate visual studio
[8:23]	Babbage Linden:	any other questions?
[8:24]	Cale Flanagan:	only update to my 3066..
[8:24]	Babbage Linden:	how are people finding mono?
[8:24]	Babbage Linden:	who's using it?
[8:24]	Dimentox Travanti:	any possibility on expanding the http responce leingth?
[8:25]	Roberto Salubrius:	if ruby and or python end up being supported how , or what kind of support will it be, functions, structures ? what about 3d functions that are intrinsic to LSL ?
[8:25]	Babbage Linden:	probably not until we allow more memory in scripts
[8:25]	Dimentox Travanti:	isint mono dynamic 64k?
[8:25]	Babbage Linden:	roberto, initially the support will be calls out to ll* functions
[8:25]	Babbage Linden:	and language features
[8:25]	Babbage Linden:	so, c# will provide arrays and exceptions etc.
[8:25]	Babbage Linden:	but not System.Collections
[8:26]	Babbage Linden:	initially
[8:26]	Zena Juran:	I'm still waiting to change over to all Mono scripts, the drag on resources is too great so far.
[8:26]	Babbage Linden:	just calles to LindenLab.SecondLife.LslLibrary.llSay(...) etc
[8:26]	Babbage Linden:	your development resources, or simulator resources?
[8:26]	Andromeda Quonset:	I'm doing a few items where I need the increased memory.
[8:26]	Zena Juran:	sim resources
[8:27]	Roberto Salubrius:	ok... that's good to know, at least we can get our way using functions that do not exist on LSL that do exist there so our jobs will be easier, that's good
[8:27]	Dimentox Travanti:	Most if all my items suffer from the System.reflection so no i cant switch yet. mono broke a few door scripts.
[8:27]	Babbage Linden:	dimentox, if you reset those scripts, they should work now
[8:27]	Babbage Linden:	on 1.24.6
[8:28]	Linegirl McMillan:	:)
[8:28]	Dimentox Travanti:	Ill have to wait till a full roll dcs is used in about 1500 sims
[8:28]	Dimentox Travanti:	but ill hit the beta grid and test
[8:28]	Babbage Linden:	thanks
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	as always, if you find problems, please post them in the public jira
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	and link them to this meta issue for mono problems
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1276
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	i've been doing some testing
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	and moved my mandelbrot explorer over to agni
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	there's a full mod version of it available just up the hill if you'd like a copy
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	it's a good demo of the mono speedup
[8:30]	Cale Flanagan:	i rebuilded it according to ur recipe:)
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	running at least 50 times faster than the LSL version
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	i've also converted the pathfinder to mono
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	that's interesting to play with
[8:31]	Cale Flanagan:	was fun to find the right link-order...
[8:31]	Babbage Linden:	mono recalculates the paths much more quickly than LSO
[8:31]	Babbage Linden:	so the creeps don't let lost as often
[8:31]	Babbage Linden:	i think it's good enough to use as the basis for a desktop tower defense now
[8:31]	Babbage Linden:	i'm going to blog about my findings at jimpurbrick.com
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	so keep an eye on that
[8:32]	Roberto Salubrius:	kool
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	(it's a bit too techy for blog.secondlife.com these days)
[8:32]	Linegirl McMillan:	It would be nice to get the http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1276 link and maybe the chat record of the meeting in a nc posted in the group?
[8:32]	Linegirl McMillan:	useful links
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	yes, good idea
[8:32]	Dimentox Travanti:	Ill have to try some a* pathing. and see if its possible in lsl yet with mono
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	the logs of our chats are in wiki.secondlife.com
[8:33]	Roberto Salubrius:	Vektor told me a while ago that state changes on LSL2 and mono are now fixed to 0.2seconds ( if I am not mistaken 0.2 or 0.4 ) will that stay that way or will they become more like they where on LSL2 that they could change as fast as possible ?
[8:33]	Linegirl McMillan:	ok.
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	roberto, that was fixed a while ago now too :-)
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	we've been busy :-D
[8:33]	Roberto Salubrius:	so it is static or as fast as it can be changed ?
[8:33]	Roberto Salubrius:	the change time that is
[8:34]	Babbage Linden:	you can change state as fast as either LSO or mono can do it
[8:34]	Babbage Linden:	up to your scripts time slice
[8:34]	Roberto Salubrius:	ok
[8:34]	Roberto Salubrius:	tyvm
[8:34]	Babbage Linden:	so you can spend 150 us changing state every frame in every script now if you like
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	actually, when there are lots of scripts only some of them run each frame
[8:35]	Cale Flanagan:	so, i had the chance to check my heapcrashers on the new version, restart problem is solved, but i still see much ttime (even more now) in topscripts, when crashed and less if running
[8:35]	Dimentox Travanti:	Babbage has there been any work on the server side under channel communications? aka better handleing of messaging ques?
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	dimentox, no
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	message queuing is still the same as before
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	i haven't changed that code
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	and i'm not sure what the current logic does
[8:36]	Dimentox Travanti:	darn, It could use some tweaking ive manages to crash a sim with to many messages to fast
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	well, if you find a crash bug, please report it in jira
[8:36]	Dimentox Travanti:	will do
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	and we'll jump on it as a top priority
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	but we're unlikely to change the event queuing logic
[8:37]	Babbage Linden:	as people will likely rely on it
[8:37]	Cale Flanagan:	i can now get 7.3ms in topscripts, yeah
[8:37]	Dimentox Travanti:	i was just hoping for faster processing cause in combat it tends to clog up
[8:38]	Babbage Linden:	in general scripts are only allowed to process 1 event per frame
[8:38]	Babbage Linden:	which can be limiting
[8:39]	Babbage Linden:	but we'd have to think carefully before changing it
[8:39]	Dimentox Travanti:	ok
[8:40]	Dimentox Travanti:	when you allow c# will you allow us to do threading?
[8:40]	Babbage Linden:	no, as all scripts will still be run from a single thread in the simulator
[8:41]	Babbage Linden:	using the uthreads to multiplex 10,000s of scripts on a single thread
[8:41]	Babbage Linden:	you can't get that concurrency from os threads
[8:41]	Babbage Linden:	and we'd have to do lots of reengineering to allow ll* functions to be called from many threas
[8:42]	Babbage Linden:	many of them manipulate the shared scene
[8:42]	Dimentox Travanti:	ok.. its like the example where you have a script that needs to have a timer run at different interveles... SO now the trick is to use elapsed and trigger the timer at the lowest possible one.
[8:42]	Babbage Linden:	which is not designed to be accessed from many threads
[8:42]	Dimentox Travanti:	which is why i was questioning threading
[8:42]	Babbage Linden:	message passing concurrency is also much easier to reason about that threading
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	the LSL model is similar to the actor and messages model used in erlang
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	which scales up to very high concurrency
[8:43]	Dimentox Travanti:	gotcha
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	with fewer dead and live locking problems than you get with threads
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	adding threads to LSL would make scripting in SL a lot more complicated
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	adding a brain to a prim with its own flow of control
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	and event inbox
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	is a very powerful conceptual model
[8:44]	Roberto Salubrius:	that would be very interesting...
[8:44]	Dimentox Travanti:	yeah
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	and one of the best things about SL scripting I think
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	makes it easy to reason about what's going on
[8:44]	Dimentox Travanti:	Thats all my questions sorry to carry on :P
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	no problem at all
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming
[8:45]	Roberto Salubrius:	and about OOP ?
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	and thanks for all your help with the mono beat
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	beta
[8:45]	Dimentox Travanti:	oop will be covered when they allow c# yes?
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	yes
[8:45]	Roberto Salubrius crosess fingers
[8:45]	Roberto Salubrius:	oh YES !
[8:45]	Dimentox Travanti:	seeyas!
[8:45]	Roberto Salubrius:	tc dimentox
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	the ll* functions will likely remain the shared interface
[8:46]	Babbage Linden:	used by both LSL and c#
[8:46]	Babbage Linden:	but you will be able to build OO interfaces on top of those methods
[8:46]	Babbage Linden:	define a LinkedPrim class for example
[8:46]	Roberto Salubrius:	that is awesome... really... I can't wait to see that
[8:46]	Babbage Linden:	that remembers it's link number
[8:46]	Babbage Linden:	and delegates calls to the llSetLink* functions
[8:47]	Roberto Salubrius:	well I guess that the development of that will take some time but when it comes SL change will change
[8:47]	Roberto Salubrius:	as much as it did with sculpts
[8:47]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment we're waiting for a new simulator host image
[8:47]	Babbage Linden:	including a new version of mono
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	that will allow us to do c# compilation on the simulator
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	once that's done and we've completed another higher priority project
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	i hope to get to c#
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	and release a proposed interface early
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	for discussion
[8:48]	Roberto Salubrius:	I am guessing a few years work right ?
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	no, it shouldn't be
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	most of the ground work was done for mono
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	c# will use the same interface
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	in fact, when you compile a script to run on mono
[8:50]	Babbage Linden:	it compiles in to a .NET object
[8:50]	Nock Forager:	interesting :)
[8:50]	Babbage Linden:	that uses the same c# interface that we'd like to expose for c# scripts
[8:50]	Babbage Linden:	the LSL script compiles in to a LindenLab.SecondLife.UserScript subclass
[8:50]	Roberto Salubrius:	so there's much more to mono than meets the eye
[8:50]	Babbage Linden:	which you can just subclass using c#
[8:51]	Roberto Salubrius:	so it will be a matter of opening it
[8:51]	Roberto Salubrius:	of course after all of this is stable
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	we have a prototype version of the simulator that supports c# scripting already
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	that we're evaluating internally
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	in order to iterate the interface
[8:51]	Roberto Salubrius:	well more good news I see
[8:52]	Babbage Linden:	it's definitely little enough work on top of the work that we've already done that i'm very keen to see it
[8:52]	Cale Flanagan:	did u get the updates to svc3066 between the lines, babbage?
[8:52]	Babbage Linden:	aha, that's the 3066 you were refering too cale :-)
[8:52]	Cale Flanagan:	allways:) 3066 or carrots:)
[8:53]	Cale Flanagan:	my home sim where i can look to estate is updated, so i could do a look
[8:53]	Babbage Linden:	that would be great
[8:53]	Cale Flanagan:	restart is np anymore
[8:54]	Babbage Linden:	we've made a lot of changes to object reset and error handling
[8:54]	Cale Flanagan:	only time in topscripts is still crazy
[8:54]	Babbage Linden:	it should be much more robust now
[8:54]	Babbage Linden:	is there a JIRA task for the topscripts issue?
[8:54]	Cale Flanagan:	and i got a serilazation error on startm bu i take this as simrestarteffect
[8:55]	Cale Flanagan:	no, but maybe i should do so:) but 3066 can be closed i think
[8:55]	Babbage Linden:	3066 is fix pending
[8:55]	Babbage Linden:	it should be closed after the roll completes
[8:55]	Cale Flanagan:	(there are some on topscripts, but i have to look if also for "after-crash")
[8:56]	Fake Fitzgerald:	I have a question about implmentation of function in Mono.
[8:56]	Babbage Linden:	ok, time's nearly up
[8:56]	Babbage Linden:	go ahead fake
[8:56]	Fake Fitzgerald:	Is there any differnce of algorith of llFrand between LSL2 and Mono?
[8:57]	Roberto Salubrius:	well I have to go and the meeting hour is almost done, thank you all have a nice day, and babbage you made my day with that C# information ! = )
[8:57]	Babbage Linden:	you're welcome roberty
[8:57]	Babbage Linden:	roberto
[8:57]	Cale Flanagan:	try opensim, there u have c# :)))
[8:57]	Babbage Linden:	llFrand should run the same C++ code to generate numbers on mono
[8:57]	Roberto Salubrius:	I have one on my pc Cale, but it's not the same ... you know...
[8:58]	Roberto Salubrius:	but I better start working more on it
[8:58]	Babbage Linden:	mono just provides a thin c# shim over the C++ library calls
[8:58]	Cale Flanagan:	y, many things missing, but its a start
[8:58]	Babbage Linden:	i've been talking to the opensim developers about standardising on a c# interface
[8:58]	Babbage Linden:	so that c# scripts will be portable as well as lsl ones
[8:59]	Nock Forager:	"portable"
[8:59]	Cale Flanagan:	the fun with opensim is, hat u find the lsl to c# translated files on it:)
[8:59]	Fake Fitzgerald:	I see
[8:59]	Nock Forager:	So it may have some difference in numbers?
[8:59]	Babbage Linden:	nock, the goal is that you should be able to take an lsl or c# script from opensim and just be able to save it in second life and have it work
[9:00]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment we support the same lsl
[9:00]	Babbage Linden:	but have different c# interfaces
[9:00]	Babbage Linden:	so a c# script would currently be portable
[9:00]	Nock Forager:	ah I just want to know that for cautioning such as in game system or so.
[9:00]	Babbage Linden:	*would not* sorry
[9:01]	Babbage Linden:	ok times up
[9:01]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for a great discussion again everyone
[9:01]	Babbage Linden:	i'll see you all next week
[9:01]	Andromeda Quonset:	cool
[9:01]	Nock Forager:	See you.
[9:01]	Fake Fitzgerald:	thanks babbage, see you next week
[9:01]	Babbage Linden:	bye
[9:01]	Cale Flanagan:	thanks and bye
[9:01]	Data Landau:	bye all
[9:02]	Andromeda Quonset:	bye!
[9:02]	Nock Forager:	bye!