User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 04 29

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

 Topics
 * http-texture increase texture download speed at 100% rate: LINK

[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	hi everyone
[3:22]	Laurent Bechir:	greeting, Babbage
[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	sorry i'm late
[3:22]	Nock Forager:	Hi Babbage.
[3:22]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	mornin babage
[3:22]	Kephra Nurmi:	moin babbage
[3:22]	Robertus Bobak:	hello Babbage
[3:22]	Thoys Pan:	G'Day Babbage
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	not a lot of script news from us this week
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	we're currently working on http textures in brighton
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	which is looking good
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	should improve texture download by 100% on average
[3:23]	Imaze Rhiano:	yay
[3:23]	koen3 Bing:	nice
[3:24]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that will mean that soon we will be able to show actual webpages in SL its sefl
[3:24]	Laurent Bechir:	nice , yes :)
[3:24]	Babbage Linden:	should halve the time for texture downloads on average
[3:24]	Babbage Linden:	and potentially open the door to hosting textures externally
[3:24]	Babbage Linden:	eventually
[3:25]	Kephra Nurmi:	this would require a new client for everyone?
[3:25]	Babbage Linden:	it also moves a lot of data off of our creaky udp message system
[3:25]	Thoys Pan:	thats good, will it still send out textures with discard level? , or must we wait till the complete texture is loaded before we see it?
[3:25]	Kephra Nurmi:	or would it also run with old clients?
[3:25]	Babbage Linden:	it will need a new client to take advantage of it
[3:25]	Babbage Linden:	so we'll need to support the old udp texture download for a long time
[3:26]	Cristopher Lefavre:	Babbage, will this imply that textures are loaded over TCP/80 instead of a high UDP port?
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	until all supported viewers are downloading textures over http
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	not sure about the ports cristopher
[3:26]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	your saying that we could eventualy have it so that we would be able to store texttures out of SL then simply have that texture available inworld ?
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	currently we're using the caps system to send the textures in cleartext
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	but that may change too
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	as using caps means we have a url for every <viewer, texture> pair
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	where ideally we only want 1 url per texture
[3:27]	Laurent Bechir:	sorry if I don't understand completly :) does it means that objects could load their textures from a personnal server ?
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	actually, 1 url per <sim, texture> pair
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	laurent, potentially, yes
[3:27]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	with textures comeing in in chat that might be whay some textures fial to load at all
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	you would want to wait until all supported viewers to http texture download though
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	otherwise people with older viewers wouldn't be able to see your texture
[3:28]	Qie Niangao:	does the http-texture data pass through SL's network (I hope) or directly from the http source to the client (which would mean lots of connections--and security concerns)?
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	qie, the former
[3:28]	Qie Niangao:	thanks. :)
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	laurent was asking about the latter
[3:28]	Kephra Nurmi:	so the current idea is: client request capabilities, and receives a caps url for the textures?
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	(which will come later ;-)
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	kephra, yes
[3:29]	Kephra Nurmi:	*ah* nice
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	this improves the simulator performance too
[3:29]	Kephra Nurmi:	so non clients wont have the caps and can not just simply download the textur
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	currently the sim has to read textures from disk
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	then chop them up and send them via udp
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	in future it will just give the viewer a cap
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	and the texture transport will be off loaded to an apache proxy on the sim host
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	so it takes load off the sim too
[3:30]	Kephra Nurmi just thinks about the textures from 3rd party servers
[3:31]	Kephra Nurmi:	would it be possible to run a capability server on own system, and to use this for other things than textures?
[3:31]	Imaze Rhiano:	isn't there plan to change texture baking too?
[3:31]	Babbage Linden:	texture baking is where most of the compexity comes with this
[3:32]	Babbage Linden:	i'm currently talking to phoenix about whether we want to change baked textures
[3:32]	Babbage Linden:	or support the current system with the http transport
[3:32]	Thoys Pan:	do textures also have some kind of checksum?
[3:33]	Thoys Pan:	so you could see if you really downloaded it right?
[3:33]	Babbage Linden:	well, TCP and HTTP take care of that
[3:33]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i would think they would have to for them to load right as it is now
[3:33]	Babbage Linden:	and the UDP transport takes care of it too
[3:34]	Babbage Linden:	so, that's what we're up to at the moment
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	anything you'd like to talk about?
[3:35]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i was wonderin how the scrip memory project is going
[3:35]	Imaze Rhiano:	any data about script memory limits yet?
[3:35]	Indeterminate Schism:	Any more thoughts on the proposed memory-management tools?
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	still waiting for the numbers from xan
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	should be here this week
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	i reminded him last week for them
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	the plan is still to look at the numbers, work out what we can support for script limits
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	then publish those proposed numbers
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	then add tools for discovering where memory is being used
[3:37]	Babbage Linden:	and finally add the enforcement code after people have had time to tidy up
[3:37]	Babbage Linden:	enforcement is unlikely to happen before the end of the year
[3:37]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	it would be good to be able to see how much memory a script actualy uses
[3:37]	Thoys Pan:	also , babbage, would the http way make it free to upload/set textures?
[3:37]	Qie Niangao:	yeah, we could use those tools even if we didn't know the target values.
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	yes, there are still discussions to have around the actual memory accounting
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	we don't want to support 2 VMs indefinitely
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	so need to make sure we don't accidentally incentivise using LSO scripts
[3:39]	Babbage Linden:	which is tricky as in some cases, LSO scripts can be the more memory efficient option
[3:39]	Babbage Linden:	(although not often)
[3:39]	Babbage Linden:	the problem gets worse when we go to 64 bit, which makes mono scripts use more memory, but not LSO scripts
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	hopefully we can set the memory limits at levels where this is not an issue for 99% of people though
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	and only really stops really abusive misuse of scripts
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	for griefing
[3:40]	Cristopher Lefavre:	Any news on the htp server implementation, Babbage?
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	we'll see
[3:40]	Xaria Mistwallow:	I have a 64bit PC
[3:40]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	< is on 32 bit systems
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	64 bit PCs don't affect scripts xaria
[3:40]	Xaria Mistwallow:	i do see drastical decrease in mono scripts, not sure why it doesnt effect me then
[3:41]	Kephra Nurmi:	*hm* does the simulator run in a 32bit chroot environment?
[3:41]	Thoys Pan:	with 64 bit, would floats be more precise?
[3:41]	Babbage Linden:	memory use for scripts is only affected by the simulator binary
[3:41]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment simulators are 32 bit
[3:42]	Babbage Linden:	running on 64 bit debian machines via emulation
[3:42]	Babbage Linden:	we'd like to move them to 64 bit
[3:42]	Xaria Mistwallow:	im on vista unfortunatly
[3:42]	Babbage Linden:	but that affects Mono memory usage
[3:42]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	when the simulators goto 64 bit that should me the perform better
[3:42]	Imaze Rhiano:	how about instead of memory limit - you would calculate abstract "performance value" for script - that would combined from different parameters - like script's memory usage, script's VM, what functions it calls, etc...
[3:42]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	mean*
[3:42]	Babbage Linden:	imaze, yes we could go down that route
[3:42]	Babbage Linden worries that it would be more confusing though
[3:43]	Babbage Linden thinks of the mystical dwell calculation and shudders
[3:43]	Thoys Pan:	ah, so it has to do with the os, and what if you use debian 32 systems for now?
[3:43]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	vist already dose that in a scale of 0 to 10
[3:43]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	vista*
[3:43]	Babbage Linden:	we have been using 64 bit debian machines for a long time
[3:43]	Babbage Linden:	but running 32 bit simulators on them
[3:43]	Xaria Mistwallow:	i know, i got probably the worst combination there is
[3:44]	Babbage Linden:	we'd like to make everything 64 bit
[3:44]	Xaria Mistwallow:	unfortunatly i found out AFTER i got this =(
[3:44]	Thoys Pan:	or you cant get above 3036 mb ram memorry when you have 32 bit right?
[3:45]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	actualy max on a 32bit system is 4GB physical but the top GB is used by the system
[3:45]	Kephra Nurmi:	applications cant get more then 2gb, and server cant have more than 3gb without bad tricks, on a 32bit system
[3:45]	Xaria Mistwallow:	Babbage: does that mean 64bit will become more stable aswell? I crash all the time now without any warning or knowing why, in the end it comes down to 64bit with SL doesnt work that well together
[3:45]	Xaria Mistwallow:	I do have to say that alot of games have this problem unfortunatly
[3:45]	Qie Niangao:	(RL calls. Thanks Babbage. Have fun all.)
[3:45]	Kephra Nurmi:	xaria your problem is client side ... because of 32bit/64bit opengl emulation
[3:45]	Nock Forager:	(me using Win7 64bit and works fine. Rarely carashed, Xaria).
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	xaria, the simulator move to 64 bit won't affect the client stability
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	the good news is that both the viewer and simulator stability have improved markedly recently
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	the simulator crash rate went down ~50% after the last release
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	which was great news
[3:46]	Xaria Mistwallow:	too bad, I just hope this could be fixed somehow, it gets really annoying when you crash all the times just becouse of that issue
[3:46]	Thoys Pan:	yes
[3:46]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that is good
[3:47]	Kephra Nurmi:	well ... simulator patches could be bad for clients ... e.g. the saturday change on search cause me to crash reliable when ever i clicked (search)
[3:47]	Thoys Pan:	or theres a bug in the crash reporter since than lol
[3:47]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	< is helping test the new viewer right now
[3:47]	Xaria Mistwallow:	its not the sims im worried about, client with 64bit is :p
[3:47]	Xaria Mistwallow:	I did not have any problems on the OnRez viewer tho
[3:47]	Babbage Linden:	xaria, yes i understand, unfortunately i'm not the linden to ask about the viewer
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	i think q has office hours and is very involved with the viewer work
[3:48]	Xaria Mistwallow:	8am for him I noticed, yeah. ill go ask him about this same thing
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	there's a bear for those that wanted one
[3:49]	Babbage Linden:	for sale for 0L$
[3:49]	Xaria Mistwallow:	♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[3:49]	Xaria Mistwallow:	:)
[3:49]	Xaria Mistwallow:	or take copy :)
[3:49]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[3:49]	Babbage Linden:	any more questions or topics?
[3:49]	Xaria Mistwallow:	not so far i know of :p
[3:49]	Kephra Nurmi has progress on his 'using mediawiki as a cloud database for secondlife' project ;)
[3:49]	Cristopher Lefavre:	The http server project?
[3:50]	Xaria Mistwallow:	I do not know much about scripting etc. I do try to learn tho
[3:50]	Nock Forager:	Watched your video on lang.net. The nubmers are very interested.
[3:50]	Babbage Linden:	glad you checked it out nock
[3:51]	Nock Forager:	So many scripts running in the Grid!
[3:51]	Babbage Linden:	i wrote up the conference from an sl perspective here: http://jimpurbrick.com/2009/04/27/langnet-3-years/
[3:51]	Babbage Linden:	yes, it's amazing: 1000 scripts per logged in avatar
[3:51]	koen3 Bing:	woow
[3:52]	Imaze Rhiano:	many 255 prim hairs with scripts :P
[3:52]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	dang
[3:52]	Xaria Mistwallow:	lol, i hardly have any. atleast not that i can mod =)
[3:52]	Babbage Linden wonders how many will be cleaned up with script limits
[3:52]	Nock Forager:	Resize script should be removed after size fixed. ;-)
[3:52]	Babbage Linden:	part of the reason for so many scripts is that there's no limit
[3:53]	Babbage Linden:	i imagine some percentage are not needed
[3:53]	Babbage Linden:	and just haven't been cleaned up
[3:53]	Babbage Linden imagines the big SL spring clean
[3:53]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i wonder if megas actualy have hidden scripts in them
[3:53]	Xaria Mistwallow:	<<<hihi>>>
[3:54]	Kephra Nurmi:	megas are nearly normal prims, from scripting point of view
[3:54]	Indeterminate Schism:	Having a llSetLinkPrimitiveParams() where we could target a range of prims would be good, so we didn't need scripts in all the child-prims when the changes need to be synchronised. I think you've discussed that though
[3:54]	Babbage Linden:	yes, it would often be handy for scripts to be able to operate on lots of prims
[3:55]	Babbage Linden:	to avoid lots of scripts everywhere
[3:55]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	true but then you could also end up with one prim in a linkset that use a massive amount of memory
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	if scripts can request large amounts of memory that's not a problem wolfpup :-D
[3:56]	Imaze Rhiano:	Doesn't MONO have now CIL verifier? Wouldn't that make possible C#?
[3:57]	Babbage Linden:	it has a bytecode verifier
[3:57]	Babbage Linden:	i'm not sure their metadata verifier is complete
[3:57]	Kephra Nurmi:	*oups* is this server special ... just got an 'can not upload script' message while editing a script in inventory
[3:57]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	true but someone might find a way to use that for greifing as well by making a script that kept making linked prims and having all of them setting with divverent prams
[3:57]	Babbage Linden:	which also needs to be done before we can use it
[3:58]	Indeterminate Schism:	Well you *can* do that now Wolf, you just can't change 'only these' efficiently
[3:58]	Babbage Linden:	ok, i need to head off
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[3:59]	Indeterminate Schism:	Thank you Babbage
[3:59]	Laurent Bechir:	thank you Babbage and bye
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	hopefully see you all next week
[3:59]	Imaze Rhiano:	thank you
[3:59]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	you tc babage and thanks for having these office hours
[3:59]	koen3 Bing:	:)
[3:59]	Cristopher Lefavre:	Thanks, bye!