User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 May 22

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[10:09]	Benjamin Linden:	hey everybody
[10:09]	Gao Niangao:	greetings
[10:09]	Wyn Galbraith:	Goodmorning Benjamin.
[10:09]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry I'm running a little late this morning
[10:09]	Noru Kyong:	hello Sir Benjamin ^.^
[10:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'll try to find it. It could be why he's having a problem.
[10:10]	Benjamin Linden:	how's everyone doing?
[10:11]	Noru Kyong:	he gave me the two links and has done what needed but still cant access his account
[10:11]	Prokofy Neva:	Hi
[10:11]	Noru Kyong:	hello Prokofy ^.^
[10:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	So he saw, http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/05/15/missing-your-alt-provide-accurate-contact-information/
[10:12]	Noru Kyong:	let me check......
[10:12]	Benjamin Linden:	hey jarod
[10:12]	Noru Kyong:	ah yes he did
[10:12]	Jarod Godel:	hi
[10:12]	Wyn Galbraith:	He might have to call the support team to clear the problem, Noru. Sorry Benjamin for cutting in.
[10:12]	Benjamin Linden:	no problem Wyn
[10:13]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good mrning Jarod :)
[10:13]	Jarod Godel:	Khamon's VoIP wrangling
[10:13]	Jarod Godel:	otherwise he'd be here.
[10:13]	Noru Kyong:	Benjamin, WarKirby Magojiro still cant access his account and asked me to come and see you
[10:13]	Jarod Godel:	Hi, Wyn
[10:13]	Wyn Galbraith adds an o to that.
[10:14]	Benjamin Linden:	Noru, has WarKirby opened a support request?
[10:14]	Jarod Godel:	Have I missed anything?
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	usually we try to discuss specific issues related to usability and user interface design at the office hours, not technical support issues
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	no we're just getting started
[10:15]	Prokofy Neva:	I have 3 comments about user interface
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	great, go ahead Prokofy
[10:15]	Prokofy Neva:	Jarod can close his ears as he won't agree.
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[10:15]	Jarod Godel:	good thing no one's prejudicial here
[10:15]	Prokofy Neva:	1) the single most comment thing you do with an object is *move it* and yet the interface frustrates and obstructs you by throwing up an "edit" menu into your face on top of the object, obscuring it
[10:16]	Prokofy Neva:	so to get at that object just to move it around you have to bat away its edit menu to see the axis with the red green blow arrows
[10:16]	Prokofy Neva:	it actually wasn't always that way if I'm not mistaken
[10:16]	Benjamin Linden:	by Edit menu do you mean the Build floater, Prokofy?
[10:16]	Prokofy Neva:	I just find I spend a good part of the day batting away and tabbing down an object's menu for more complcated editing that I don't need
[10:17]	Prokofy Neva:	I don't know what build floater means
[10:17]	Prokofy Neva:	I mean when you click on an object, right click it springs up an edit menu
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry, the window that appears when you click the Build button
[10:17]	Prokofy Neva:	to be able to get at those arrows moving it along an axis, you have to tab that away
[10:17]	Prokofy Neva:	it comes up *in front of the object*
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	or when you right-click on something and click Edit, a window opens
[10:17]	Prokofy Neva:	it never used to do that
[10:17]	Prokofy Neva:	so it's in the way a thousand times a tday
[10:18]	Benjamin Linden:	so we are talking about the window right?
[10:18]	Prokofy Neva:	My point is that the window/floater/menu/thinger springs up in the way in front of the object
[10:18]	Benjamin Linden:	right ok
[10:18]	Gao Niangao edits something, and sees the floater off to the side, where he thinks he last left it
[10:18]	Prokofy Neva:	and it didn't used to do that
[10:18]	Prokofy Neva:	well duh you can move it, that's not my point
[10:19]	Benjamin Linden:	so if you drag it out of the way and close it, then reopen it does it open in the same place or somewhere else?
[10:19]	Prokofy Neva:	the point is you didn't ask to edit, you just want tomve
[10:19]	Jarod Godel:	Would docking it -- being able to hook it to a border -- help?
[10:19]	Prokofy Neva:	it needs to open behind the object like it used to
[10:19]	Prokofy Neva:	or perhaps not open at all
[10:20]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure what mean by "behind the object". as in, somehow beneath it in 3d space?
[10:20]	Prokofy Neva:	behind it
[10:20]	Noru Kyong:	gah my pc shut down -_-
[10:20]	Prokofy Neva:	so that it is not in the way of moving it
[10:20]	Prokofy Neva:	it did used to be like that
[10:20]	Prokofy Neva:	somehow someone got clever with it and made the menu spring up in front
[10:20]	Prokofy Neva:	under the theory that that's more convenient for those wanting to *change* and *edit the object*
[10:21]	Prokofy Neva:	but most people want to just MOVE it
[10:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	What OS are you on Prokofy?
[10:21]	Prokofy Neva:	that's irrelevant to this poit, but it's windows
[10:21]	Gao Niangao wonders if Control-Drag would be helpful--well, for imprecise moving
[10:22]	Prokofy Neva:	well either put it back the way it was, or elaborate some newer more complex thing that drags it around but that's probably far more complicated
[10:22]	Jarod Godel:	If you could permanently attach the edit window/floater someone on-screen, so you knew where it was going to show up, would that help?
[10:22]	Prokofy Neva:	the point is that every time you wish to move something, like place a house or move in furniture, you ahve to fight the edit menu and get it to go away to move the object
[10:22]	Wyn Galbraith:	My build menu shows up where I last moved it and I use Windows XP. OS might be relevant because the viewer may run differently depending on the OS.
[10:22]	Jarod Godel:	I'm thinking along the lines of the menus, where they can drop down from the top, or float around the desktop.
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	when the Edit/Build window opens for me it's in the upper left corner of the screen so it doesn't block anything
[10:22]	Prokofy Neva:	once again Wyn: the ability to move the menu out of the way is not the point
[10:22]	Prokofy Neva:	why? because it still obstructs no matter *where* it is
[10:23]	Prokofy Neva:	if you are trying to move a big house or something, that thihg is in the way, *blocking your view of the little coloured arrows*
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	Prok, can you do me a favor and do the following:
[10:23]	Prokofy Neva:	you hunt and hunt to find the set of the little coloured arrows
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	1. right click on the coffee table, select edit
[10:23]	Prokofy Neva:	You have to zoom out, and then not be able to position the object anymore
[10:23]	Wyn Galbraith smiles, "I am not talking about having to move it. My menu, like Benjamin's shows up in the upper left corner all the time. Just trying to determine why yours is not.
[10:24]	Prokofy Neva:	Prokofy Neva smiles, no that is not the issue, because it is still in the way no matter where it is
[10:24]	Prokofy Neva:	and seriously, I came here to give some feedback to Lindens, they can take it or leave it
[10:24]	Prokofy Neva:	I really hate having to argue with all the fanboyz too
[10:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	Then click the - and minimize it.
[10:24]	Prokofy Neva:	it makes it really really hard to just get a few simple comments across
[10:24]	Prokofy Neva:	minim;izing it is not a solution
[10:24]	Prokofy Neva:	it is still in the way
[10:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	No need to be rude, we're just trying to help you.
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	ok so Prok, what you're saying is that even if the menu isn't exactly covering the object it gets in the way when you try to move it?
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	no you are being obstructure by constantly interjecting what you think is your put-down solution to my uneducated comment
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	please bakc off with that
[10:25]	Wyn Galbraith:	Minimize puts it in a tinybar at the bottom of the screen, how can that be in the way.
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	because PS the menu does NOT minimize
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	well that's just it Wyn
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	you h ave to tab it down that's what I've said 100 times
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	it's an extra step
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	you go in, you want to move the damn object, the damn menu springs up in the way
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	forcing you to move it out by tabbing it down
[10:25]	Prokofy Neva:	lather rinse repeat PER OBJECT
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	Prokofy, it would be helpful for me if you could take some screenshots of the problem you're experiencing
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	I know that's kind of a lot of work
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	but it would really help me understand the problem better
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	no I'm happy to do it, but what it is is something very simple
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	it's just that you don't see it as a problem
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	because you think the purpose of objects is to do complex activities on them
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	whereas I, as a normal person, wishes only to move them
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	as to 5.999 other million people on here
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	I try to be pretty open-minded about things :-)
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	good!
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	now on to points 2, 3 if I may
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	ok
[10:26]	Prokofy Neva:	again, please, others close your ears, do not argue
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	because you will not agree
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	just try to hear from a real life ordinary normal user
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	2. The SEARCH button is in the wrong place
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	no one can ever find it
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	even being told 20 times in a session
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	why?
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	because it's at the bottom where people don't look, they look to the top
[10:27]	Wyn Galbraith has no problem operating the menus,
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	it needs to be bigger, and at the top
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	and in the upper right-hand "right-lookers' corner
[10:27]	Prokofy Neva:	as most people look up and to the right
[10:28]	Prokofy Neva:	the other issue with the buttons ont he bottom
[10:28]	Benjamin Linden:	actually we're working on some improvements to search right now, Prok, including the idea you suggested
[10:28]	Prokofy Neva:	is that depending on windows and working within windows, etc. your task bar gets mixed up with the tabs on your RL computer screen
[10:28]	Prokofy Neva:	ok well search is actuallly point 4 but I am not sure you "do" search
[10:28]	Prokofy Neva:	so 3 has to do with basically the entire top bar
[10:29]	Prokofy Neva:	the entier top bar again is not used by the average person
[10:29]	Prokofy Neva:	they are all complex activities like "client/server/tools/" even help
[10:29]	Prokofy Neva:	so put them on the bottom
[10:29]	Prokofy Neva:	or leave help up there, but put friends, chat fly on the top
[10:29]	Prokofy Neva:	where people will see it and use it
[10:29]	Prokofy Neva:	"gestures" is never used much beause people buy AO's so put that in the left, swap it with history
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	these are all interesting suggestions, Prokofy, thanks!
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	did you have other points of feedback?
[10:31]	Benjamin Linden:	ok, well let's move on then. last week we discussed how SL might work on a variety of different non-PC platforms, such as mobile phones
[10:32]	Benjamin Linden:	we also talked about an SL browser plug-in
[10:32]	Benjamin Linden:	so we were going to continue discussing what it might take to get a basic proof of concept built for that
[10:32]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think that is a good idea due to cases where you cannot install the viewer.
[10:33]	Noru Kyong:	Benjamin im sorry for interrupting but i would like to have some information of why WarKirby Magojiro cant access his account after updating his information like the blog said?
[10:33]	Benjamin Linden:	that's right, Wyn, that's certainly a use case for a browser plug in
[10:33]	Prokofy Neva:	well sorry I was being hammered on by everybody squawking as they do every week about group liability, a completely different discussion, and the group tools aren't working again, and you can't speak on the groups due to errorizing
[10:33]	Wyn Galbraith:	We use a similar arrangement with Telnet for MUs.
[10:33]	Benjamin Linden:	Noru, did WarKirby open a support issue.
[10:33]	Benjamin Linden:	?
[10:33]	Jarod Godel:	Wyn, like a Java telnet client?
[10:34]	Benjamin Linden:	Office hours aren't intended for technical support issues.
[10:34]	Wyn Galbraith:	Yes, exactly.
[10:34]	Noru Kyong:	he e-mailed you twice i think he said, and you saaid"try in an hour", this was over 4 days ago now
[10:34]	Wyn Galbraith:	Comes in very handy when at work or on systems that don't belong to the user.
[10:34]	Prokofy Neva:	Noru call them up on the telephone, write Support@ and try to find liaisions rather than taking up an office hour
[10:35]	Benjamin Linden:	Noru, I'm sorry but I'm not in the support group so I don't know what contact he's had with them.
[10:35]	Benjamin Linden:	They are the best team to help.
[10:35]	Noru Kyong:	^_^ im sorry but im here on behalf of WarKirby, i have no problems he has with his account
[10:35]	Benjamin Linden:	Right, so WarKirby should contact support directly.
[10:35]	Jarod Godel:	Wyn, not wholly related, but I recently discovered browser-based command lines for a couple of programming languages (JavaScript, I believe), which are incredibly nice.
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	Wyn, can you elaborate on what you were talking about with telnet clients?
[10:36]	Jarod Godel:	I makes me re-think my position that "the plug in musthave everything."
[10:36]	Noru Kyong:	alright well thank you then
[10:36]	Noru Kyong:	^_^
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	good luck with your problem, Noru!
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	I hope it get resolved.
[10:37]	Noru Kyong:	me too, take care everyone, hope you all have fun
[10:37]	Benjamin Linden:	Jarod, one thing we were discussing about the plugin is that it probably would *not* have the full set of features in the main viwer
[10:37]	Benjamin Linden:	viewer
[10:37]	Wyn Galbraith nods to Jarod and answers Benjamin, "I do a lot of text-based RP, several games have set up the use of the Java telnet client that opens inside the browser.
[10:38]	Wyn Galbraith thinks Telnet is simpler than SL viewers. :)
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	it's interesting to think about a truly stripped down text interface for SL
[10:38]	Jarod Godel:	Chat and IM could work that way.
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	right
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	you could potentially even give inventory to people
[10:39]	Gao Niangao:	so... zero-th order... are we talking about supporting the same viewer-sim protocol, or something sim-side to simplify the comms?
[10:39]	Jarod Godel:	That would be fun. Ajaxian SL.
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	well I think that's a good question Gao
[10:39]	Jarod Godel:	Drag something, in a browser, into someone else's inventory
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	that's part of why we're exploring this space is to understand what needs to be done to make it work
[10:40]	Benjamin Linden:	can it be done now with the existing open source code?
[10:40]	Benjamin Linden:	or do we need to further expose certain services?
[10:40]	Jarod Godel:	I think you could "easily" seperate IM's from SL, but localized chats (like this) are bound to avatar locations.
[10:41]	Jarod Godel:	For me to chat here, through the web, I'd have to have local chat in the plug-in.
[10:41]	Benjamin Linden:	I think a web plug-in should have in-world navigation as a bare minimum
[10:41]	Jarod Godel:	or blindly remote control my avatar. Hmm. There's a thought.
[10:42]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe it's not a fully-rendered view, depending on the power of your computer
[10:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's a scary thought, Jarod ;)
[10:42]	Jarod Godel:	Could the plug-in dumb-down what we see?
[10:42]	Penelope Gaudio gave you Help! Hubby lost password.
[10:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Someone said wireframe view.
[10:42]	Wyn Galbraith greets Chaley.
[10:42]	Jarod Godel:	You'd all see Jarod in the normal viewers, but I'd only see floating names.
[10:42]	Benjamin Linden:	that's a good question Jarod
[10:42]	Chaley May:	hi :)
[10:43]	Jarod Godel:	The plug in a full client, but it out outputs a subset of features.
[10:43]	Benjamin Linden:	right, but would the plug-in be able to pick and choose what to expose?
[10:43]	Wyn Galbraith:	Interesting idea, Jarod.
[10:43]	Benjamin Linden:	can it pick apart from all the data the server sends down
[10:43]	Jarod Godel:	Benjamin, it would have to.
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Chaley
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	great av
[10:44]	Jarod Godel:	As I understand LLSD to work, anyway
[10:44]	Wyn Galbraith:	Chaley looks like the Ice Queen. Benjamin's right.
[10:44]	Chaley May:	ty :)
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	Right, Jarod, I'm wondering if that could be done today or if that needs to be something we support on the server side or in the protocols
[10:45]	Chaley May:	i do have a staff but i modified it to make love heart particles on valentines and now i cant stop them!
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	you can never have too much love, Chaley! :-)
[10:46]	Chaley May:	You say that till i equip it :)
[10:46]	Jarod Godel:	Ben, can you explain the difference in "server side" and "protocols"? I thought that was synonymous.
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	haha, I might think you're a griefer
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	well by server-side I mean things that the server processes. the protocol is the communication between client and server
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	has anyone here played around with the open source code?
[10:47]	Gao Niangao:	just enough to successfully compile it on Linux
[10:47]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL Benjamin.
[10:47]	Benjamin Linden:	haha lots of hearts!
[10:47]	Wyn Galbraith sorries has alittle lag *cough*.
[10:47]	Jarod Godel:	ok
[10:48]	Jarod Godel:	then i say support in protocol
[10:48]	Jarod Godel:	the more you do in protocol, the more extensible sl becomes
[10:48]	Benjamin Linden:	right, I agree
[10:49]	Gao Niangao:	Chaley, you need a one-line script in your staff, something like "default { state_entry() { llParticleSystem([ ]); } } "
[10:49]	Benjamin Linden:	it would be interesting if someone started playing around with the idea of a browser plug-in to see how far they could get with the current code and protocols
[10:50]	Benjamin Linden:	one thing that I think that's especially interesting about a browser plug-in is that it integrates with the web much better
[10:50]	Wyn Galbraith:	That would be a interesting project, only I am more of a QA tester than a coder. If someone builds it I can test it. :)
[10:50]	Benjamin Linden:	and you can take advantage of certain browser functionality, like history, back button, bookmarks, etc.
[10:50]	Gao Niangao:	if bandwidth isn't an issue, and for the browser, it shouldn't be... then the existing protocols should be ok... except all the client-sie comms have to get translated to java.
[10:50]	Benjamin Linden:	why Java, Gao?
[10:51]	Wyn Galbraith:	Java is a strong language that crosses all platforms.
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	or is that just what you would use in this case?
[10:51]	Gao Niangao:	well... ok... it wouldn't have to be, if you're gonna support a download for each platform
[10:51]	Wyn Galbraith:	Once a class is built it can be easily shared.
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Khamon
[10:51]	Khamon Fate:	hallo
[10:51]	Wyn Galbraith welcomes the late blooming Khamon ;)
[10:51]	Khamon Fate:	i had to work some today
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	do others agree that Java would be the right platform for building an SL browser platform?
[10:51]	Wyn Galbraith:	So it would be a good language choice.
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry, platform = plug-in
[10:52]	Prokofy Neva:	No
[10:52]	Khamon Fate:	that ol' first life, it will keep interferring
[10:52]	Wyn Galbraith:	For one, it is portable if written generically.
[10:52]	Khamon Fate:	why not prokofy?
[10:52]	Jarod Godel:	the biggest thing we'd need a plug-in for is the 3-D rendering
[10:53]	Khamon Fate:	i don't know. i've not ever written a graphical client plugin
[10:53]	Wyn Galbraith:	Java could handle the 3D I believe.
[10:53]	Jarod Godel:	whichever language supported that best would reign -- be it Java or Flash.
[10:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I was going to ask about Flash
[10:53]	Wyn Galbraith:	Maybe a combination of both.
[10:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I've even seen some interesting 3d work just using DHTML/javascript
[10:53]	Benjamin Linden:	but that's probably not robust enough for SL
[10:54]	Khamon Fate:	trevor's ogoglio project is java-based
[10:54]	Prokofy Neva:	All those advertising and game sites that use flash are making more and more interactivity and you now see 3-dish looking wordlets that are very lite and easy to use that have manipulable objects, all in flash, and that's all an end of the "Metaverse" that is going on without you.
[10:54]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's true, but Javascript is not Java. Does Javascript support classes? I haven't dabbled in Javascript.
[10:54]	Khamon Fate:	so is the darkstar server but that's not a plugin
[10:55]	Wyn Galbraith:	What I like about Java is that it will run on Linux, Macs and Windows.
[10:55]	Jarod Godel:	wyn, yes, it does
[10:55]	Prokofy Neva gave you Prokofy's Memo about Search.
[10:55]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think the value then is in the classes. Someone with little programming experience would be able to use already built classes.
[10:55]	Prokofy Neva:	Benjamin if you have time to summarize the things that you are doing that you think are improving search, which you referenced a while back
[10:56]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for the notecard, Prokofy
[10:57]	Khamon Fate:	I'd like to know where search is headed too.
[10:57]	Benjamin Linden:	we're almost out of time so I'll quickly run through what we're thinking about with search
[10:57]	Prokofy Neva:	the econoy will tank at least 10-15 percent or more after you take out traffic as a component, and I *do not mean the gamed campchair* elements of it.
[10:58]	Benjamin Linden:	we can continue the plug-in discussion again on Thursday if people are interested. but it'd be great if people could start evangelizing the idea on sldev and other places and maybe someone will pick it up and build a simple proof of concept
[10:58]	Prokofy Neva:	I guess you ahve reached the point where the inworld economy isn't as important to youj as it once was
[10:58]	Benjamin Linden:	actually Prok, I would say the economy is one of the more important aspects of SL
[10:58]	Wyn Galbraith is interested in the plug-in discussion and will try to make it.
[10:58]	Benjamin Linden:	to LL and to all of SL
[10:58]	Benjamin Linden:	re: search, there are several things going on
[10:59]	Prokofy Neva:	the outworld economy is now many times the factor of the inworld's GNP, which is hidden behind the fluff of the "$2 million in transactions" on the front page
[10:59]	Benjamin Linden:	one is a short-term effort to improve our existing search by making the searches full-text and the results more relevant
[10:59]	Prokofy Neva:	I'm sure we mean different thigns by the economy
[10:59]	Wyn Galbraith listens to Benjamin.
[10:59]	Jarod Godel:	Yeah, I'm on the sldev list -- as a lurker. I'll try to fire off the suggestion
[10:59]	Benjamin Linden:	great, thanks Jarod
[11:00]	Prokofy Neva:	The great thing about SL, Wyn, is that you can talk AND listen simultaneously and multitask *gasp* due to chat history
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	also, longer term we are looking to improve the search UI, by doing things like you suggested Prok, with the search bar in the upper right
[11:00]	Khamon Fate:	jamin does that mean profile descriptions et al will be full text searchable?
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	always there, as in Firefox, so people can quickly find it and do searches
[11:00]	Prokofy Neva:	what is the means by which you will return results
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	that's correct, Khamon
[11:00]	Jarod Godel:	nice
[11:00]	Prokofy Neva:	how will you decide what gets returned first?
[11:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sounds good Benjamin.
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	we want to be able to search all the fields, full-text
[11:00]	Jarod Godel:	I love my search box in firefox.
[11:00]	Prokofy Neva:	merely the Google bomb factor, whatever gets clicked on the most gets more clicks?
[11:00]	Wyn Galbraith loves firefox as well.
[11:00]	Khamon Fate:	that *will* be nice. and y'all should move all the minimized windows to somewhere other than over the chat area
[11:00]	Torley Linden:	wheeeeeee hi!
[11:01]	Khamon Fate:	i can rephrase that a hundred different ways if you need me to
[11:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	HI Torley!
[11:01]	Chaley May:	hello Torley :)
[11:01]	Jarod Godel:	Thanks, Benjamin, for the meeting.
[11:01]	Orisis Zeffirelli:	hi all ;-)
[11:01]	Benjamin Linden:	we haven't worked through the details or sorting and relevancy yet
[11:01]	Prokofy Neva:	God is in the details.
[11:01]	Prokofy Neva:	Sales, too.
[11:01]	Gao Niangao agrees that minimized windows are really in an annoying place!
[11:01]	Jarod Godel:	Find what I mean, not what I search for. There's your relevency. ;-)
[11:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks for the meeting, Benjamin. Always an education and a study in patience.
[11:02]	Khamon Fate:	we'd like any info you have on search at any time benjamin. it really is very important to us.
[11:02]	Shirley Marquez got her time zones scrambled :(
[11:02]	Khamon Fate:	yes thanks for hosting benjamin, we shall away to robin's
[11:02]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd like to have a longer discussion about search
[11:02]	Chaley May:	bye Benjamin
[11:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	Bye Benjamin.
[11:02]	Prokofy Neva:	after you've broken it, monitor the world for 30 days, understand it better, then put it back the way it was
[11:02]	Shirley Marquez:	Bye, Benjamin
[11:02]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming everyone!
[11:02]	Prokofy Neva:	that would be my suggestion
[11:03]	Shirley Marquez:	Good to see you again too, Torley
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	=D
[11:03]	Gao Niangao:	thanks Benjamin
[11:03]	Chaley May:	going to Robins meeting now.. bye :)
[11:03]	Prokofy Neva:	thanks Benjamin