User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 16

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[9:59]	Daedalus Young:	hi Benjamin
[9:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hullo, hullo
[9:59]	Benjamin Linden:	good morning folks
[9:59]	Squirrel Wood:	Holla ^^
[9:59]	Daedalus Young:	oof, JIRA is even slower
[9:59]	Torley Linden:	Hello everyone!
[9:59]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Torley!
[9:59]	Daedalus Young:	hi Torley
[9:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hullo, Torley!
[9:59]	Torley Linden:	Hey Ben, Daed, Jacek, Squirrel, all... it's all rezzing in!
[10:00]	Squirrel Wood:	holla ^^
[10:00]	Saijanai Dagger:	hey all
[10:00]	Torley Linden:	Been awhile since I last saw you inworld, Jacek. :)
[10:00]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah, there's an issue with the wiki right now
[10:00]	Benjamin Linden:	we just reported it
[10:00]	Daedalus Young:	ah ok
[10:00]	Torley Linden:	Good to know, it's been periodically slow on/off for me. :\
[10:00]	Daedalus Young:	we were noticing it
[10:00]	Torley Linden:	Hey Wyn, Sai! Familiar faces. :D
[10:00]	Saijanai Dagger:	on an alt. At a meeting at Zha's
[10:00]	Torley Linden:	Sai, you're simultaneously attending multiple meetings?
[10:01]	Saijanai Dagger multitasks real well. Just don't ask him what is going on
[10:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	Morning.
[10:01]	Torley Linden:	Mornin'!
[10:01]	Torley Linden is listening to the Halo Theme... makes dramatic bug triage music.
[10:01]	Torley Linden likes how the choirs rise up in the beginning and at the end.
[10:01]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm doing some last minute editing of the agenda, pls hold
[10:01]	Torley Linden:	Heya Don.
[10:01]	Torley Linden:	42! The answer to everything?
[10:01]	Don Misfit:	:)
[10:01]	Saijanai Dagger:	BTW, I've got it completely working save paste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvEKiGSYm0k
[10:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	Holding.
[10:02]	Torley Linden:	*watches*
[10:02]	Daedalus Young:	ohh, your sculpty textures now loaded, Torley
[10:02]	Torley Linden:	HAHAAH PORTAL
[10:02]	Torley Linden:	THE CAKE... IS A LIE
[10:02]	Benjamin Linden:	nice av torley!
[10:02]	Torley Linden digs Evil AIs... thanks Ben! Some of these new sculpty fantasy creatures are so rockin'.
[10:02]	Saijanai Dagger:	does it swim when it moves?
[10:02]	Daedalus Young:	Halloween avatar?
[10:02]	Torley Linden:	Haha Daed, it might as well be, eh?
[10:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Nice av
[10:03]	Torley Linden:	It's so funny, the description for this avatar's head... "it looks like a yak."
[10:03]	Torley Linden:	Squirrel, you like Portal?
[10:03]	Torley Linden:	This av has an HUD so I can do some crazy things...
[10:03]	Daedalus Young:	nice
[10:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Quiet snapshots to disk doesn't seem to work.
[10:03]	Torley Linden:	Oh WOW that really is a sculptie companion cube?
[10:03]	Saijanai Dagger:	have you seen those Japanese goldfish/mermen avatars?
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	Wyn, hmmmm I know they don't work if you send a postcard or go through the Snapshot preview floater, but directly to disk they should work.
[10:04]	Benjamin Linden:	wow this is very cool Sai!
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	Sai, who makes those? I have not.
[10:04]	Squirrel Wood:	I have played it twice already and am now tackling the advanced test chambers
[10:04]	Daedalus Young:	hmm, Quiet Snaps work for me
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	Oooh keyword browser.
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	Yeah that is looking promising.
[10:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Did you just hear me take a snapshot?
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	I'd like to see someone make GlaDOS and that cake in Second Life.
[10:04]	Daedalus Young:	yes
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	Wyn, yes I did.
[10:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Not working.
[10:04]	Saijanai Dagger:	I don't know. I saw them at a sandbox once. MOved like a ornamental goldfish swimming. Was really cool. Ulta fancy fins trailing behind and everything
[10:04]	Saijanai Dagger:	ultra* fancy
[10:04]	Torley Linden:	I'm going to start a section on my personal blog soon, from the perspective of an evil AI...
[10:05]	Torley Linden hears physics collisions.
[10:05]	Wyn Galbraith hrms.
[10:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Ante Flan is working on an avatar thats based on Portal
[10:05]	Daedalus Young:	did you hear -me- take a Snap?
[10:05]	Torley Linden:	Oh cool, what's it going to be based on exactly Squirrel?
[10:05]	Torley Linden:	Daed, do it again? I missed that.
[10:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Nope. Are you windows/mac/linux?
[10:05]	Daedalus Young:	there ya go
[10:05]	Squirrel Wood:	GlaDOS
[10:05]	Daedalus Young:	Mac
[10:05]	Torley Linden:	I didn't hear anything Daed.
[10:05]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks let's go ahead and get started
[10:05]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/UI_Agenda
[10:05]	Wyn Galbraith is windoz
[10:06]	Torley Linden:	Oh right on Squirrel, I'll have to check that out.
[10:06]	Wyn Galbraith is also on the release canidate.
[10:06]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks to Matthew we have a patch
[10:06]	Daedalus Young:	yes, me on RC too
[10:06]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2681
[10:06]	Squirrel Wood:	Don, exactly at the time when its done :p
[10:06]	Don Misfit:	:(
[10:07]	Torley Linden:	Don, I definitely would like that to be fixed -- that and related problems, we're currently moving to web services which will alleviate some of the backend burdens and make our systems more reliable... and as part of that, I think there are some opportunities to architecturally overhaul long-ailing stuff.
[10:07]	Benjamin Linden:	Hi Don, if you have some issues you'd like to discuss that aren't related to specific UI bugs I'd be happy to chat with you during office hours on Thursday.
[10:08]	Don Misfit:	sorry - just wearing a sign for a minute
[10:08]	Benjamin Linden:	no problem!
[10:08]	Torley Linden:	^_^
[10:08]	Daedalus Young:	we talked about 2681 yesterday
[10:08]	Torley Linden:	Oh this first issue, I saw this the other day. Fresh.
[10:08]	Squirrel Wood:	2681 narrows down the list of names considerably in cases where its badly needed
[10:08]	Benjamin Linden:	what was the discussion, Daedalus?
[10:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[10:08]	Daedalus Young:	I can't really remember, I think we wanted to know more what was meant
[10:09]	Daedalus Young:	I was half busy doing other stuff as well, transcript isn't up yet
[10:09]	Torley Linden:	I think 2681 sounds pretty cool, but often, griefers may be within the region but out of chat distance... so I'm wondering if the range (20 m, yes?) is far enough.
[10:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	omg yesss
[10:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	love it
[10:09]	Squirrel Wood:	voice chat range is much farther?
[10:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	((Hy Ya'll, sorry I'm late... was out picking up Transformers :D ))
[10:09]	Torley Linden:	I think so, Squirrel.
[10:09]	Torley Linden:	(Hahahah Kooky, which ones?)
[10:10]	Daedalus Young:	it has Soft's comments from yesterday
[10:10]	Torley Linden:	Matthew Dowd has some some really nice patches. He added the ability to invite people to a group from the pie menu. :)
[10:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	((Movie))
[10:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	((The Newwwww Movie))
[10:10]	Torley Linden:	He's got a good eye for looking at common processes that should be simpler.
[10:10]	Benjamin Linden:	agreed
[10:11]	Daedalus Young:	so I think the idea was to import it when that's clear
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds like he may not be ready to import this one
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	right
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	ok I'll mark it pending then
[10:11]	Torley Linden:	K...
[10:11]	Torley Linden:	I'll leave a comment.
[10:11]	Squirrel Wood:	sounds good to me :)
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	Daedalus, is Rob Linden covering UI bugs during his office hours as well?
[10:12]	Benjamin Linden:	we're trying not to have too much redundancy
[10:12]	Daedalus Young:	usually limited
[10:12]	Saijanai Dagger:	He usually refers those to this meeting
[10:12]	Daedalus Young:	the list yesterday was made 5 minutes before the triage
[10:12]	Squirrel Wood:	usually just to decide whether to push it your way or not ?
[10:12]	Saijanai Dagger:	thats how it generally goes
[10:13]	Daedalus Young:	yes
[10:13]	Benjamin Linden:	ok sounds good
[10:13]	Benjamin Linden:	alright let's move on then
[10:13]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1286
[10:13]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm this came up before
[10:14]	Daedalus Young:	1286 we talked about very briefly too, Gigs is working on it
[10:14]	Squirrel Wood:	Gigs Taggart (sp?) is working on a patch for camera behavior which he hopes will fix most of the known bugs
[10:14]	Torley Linden:	Yeah, how did VWR-1286 come up again in our list? Oh, reopened?
[10:14]	Torley Linden:	AHHH yes Gigs told me he was working on this.
[10:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Looks still pending, though
[10:14]	Torley Linden:	*nod*
[10:14]	Daedalus Young:	"almost done" is Gigs' latest comment
[10:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	Valentina, don't make me shoot you please.
[10:15]	Torley Linden:	Heya Alexa, Valentina.
[10:15]	Alexa Linden:	Hi torley :D
[10:15]	Daedalus Young:	hi
[10:15]	Daedalus Young:	so I think we can safely skip it for now
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	wow Gig's is putting a lot of work into this
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	but yeah, let's skip this one
[10:15]	Torley Linden:	Alexa thanks a lot for helping out on PJIRA, I saw some of your comments, and BTW if a bug's repro doesn't work for you, feel free to resolve it as "Cannot Reproduce" and ask the reporter for more details.
[10:16]	Squirrel Wood:	Change by Gigs Taggart - 08/Oct/07 10:32 PM Link This issue duplicates VWR-98 [ VWR-98 ]
[10:16]	Alexa Linden:	will do
[10:16]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Alexa. that is the cutest av ever!
[10:16]	Torley Linden:	=)
[10:16]	Alexa Linden:	TY Torley
[10:16]	Torley Linden:	Yeah, haha, with the fires on horns!
[10:16]	Alexa Linden:	:) thanks
[10:16]	Alexa Linden:	lol
[10:16]	Squirrel Wood:	might want to take that into account mayhaps?
[10:16]	Alexa Linden:	evol bunney Linden, at your serivce
[10:16]	Benjamin Linden:	ok next up
[10:16]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1286
[10:16]	Daedalus Young:	I don't think it's a dupe, more it's closely related
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	oops
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2722
[10:17]	Squirrel Wood:	Muting an object with pie menu only mutes the prim you select, not entire linkset
[10:17]	Torley Linden:	Hmmm... that's an intriguing bug.
[10:17]	Torley Linden:	I didn't know that before.
[10:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ye[
[10:17]	Torley Linden:	Have any of you reproed this? Kooky?
[10:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	Me and Wyn confirmed it at Robins last night
[10:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	er last week
[10:17]	Torley Linden:	Because that clearly sounds dysfunctional...
[10:17]	Daedalus Young:	I did notice it before, when muting Nukes didn't make them silent
[10:17]	Torley Linden:	OK, cool, well that sounds good to import then. :)
[10:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	we were muting her wind chimes
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	if you were able to repro it then we should import
[10:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	its a really REALLY irritating one
[10:18]	Torley Linden:	OSSM, as Bridie would say...
[10:18]	Torley Linden:	Haha, glad to see your votes on it.
[10:18]	Torley Linden:	Thanks for your support.
[10:18]	Torley Linden:	*imports*
[10:18]	Squirrel Wood:	Did you try with renaming the muted prim and then check if it is still muted?
[10:18]	Torley Linden:	C'mon PJIRA importer... go FASTER.
[10:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	No
[10:18]	Alexa Linden:	hahaha
[10:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha Torley, I'm about to restart SL due to miserable framerates for some reason.. (holding at 8.1)
[10:19]	Saijanai Dagger:	bah, sometimes get 1.2 fps
[10:19]	Benjamin Linden:	next up
[10:19]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2118
[10:19]	Daedalus Young:	ooh, I'm at 8.1 too now
[10:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	I
[10:19]	Squirrel Wood:	Near Me and IM scroll bars scroll to the bottom whenever the text entry field is clicked
[10:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm used to 20's-30s myself.
[10:19]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wasn't that already entered?
[10:19]	Wyn Galbraith hates that action by the by.
[10:19]	Torley Linden:	Oh there's an additional repro step that's needed for VWR-2118...
[10:20]	Torley Linden:	you click in the chat history, and THEN you click in the text entry field.
[10:20]	Daedalus Young:	yes
[10:20]	Benjamin Linden:	rght
[10:20]	Torley Linden:	This is an annoying bug.
[10:20]	Daedalus Young:	that reproes for me too that way
[10:20]	Benjamin Linden:	and I agree this is flawed behavior
[10:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	Especially if you're trying to catch up.
[10:20]	Torley Linden:	Sounds good to import!
[10:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah
[10:20]	Torley Linden:	Yeah Wyn that happens to me a lot.
[10:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	Or copy something from the chat.
[10:20]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, and Torley you can go ahead and add the approved tag for this
[10:20]	Daedalus Young:	or click on the ground to take focus off
[10:20]	Wyn Galbraith votes for it :) "But I thought it was already in jira."
[10:21]	Torley Linden:	K!
[10:21]	Saijanai Dagger:	if you scroll up in chat history, click a different tab and click back, youre at the botto again
[10:21]	Torley Linden:	Ben, I'll talk with you after this about migrating our Rx stuff to the new JIRA system. :)
[10:21]	Daedalus Young:	so basically: on focus change the scroll moves to the bottom
[10:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	New JIRA?
[10:21]	Saijanai Dagger:	I believe this happens with scroll ists as well as scroll text
[10:21]	Daedalus Young:	QJIRA?
[10:21]	Torley Linden:	Internally at Linden Lab we reorganized our JIRA system...
[10:21]	Saijanai Dagger:	Seems to me I noticed it last night testing the keyword browser
[10:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yep. It's not just clicking; if you Ctrl-Tab to the Chat History while it's scrolled up, it'll scroll back down to the bottom
[10:21]	Torley Linden:	upgraded to a new version and changed the workflow.
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	oh nice call Sai, that's also annoying
[10:22]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ah
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	bah, what is up with all this scrollbar jumping
[10:22]	Torley Linden:	Yeah it drives me crazy.
[10:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha
[10:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[10:22]	Torley Linden:	It's been around for so long too.
[10:22]	Daedalus Young:	I've seen more bugs with inventories filtered move when changing things, iirc
[10:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	makes it hard to scroll and read and answer other windows
[10:22]	Saijanai Dagger:	don't go there
[10:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[10:23]	Saijanai Dagger:	folder lists are an eniterely different set of GUI classes
[10:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've deleted the wrong item.
[10:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sorry wrong window.
[10:23]	Daedalus Young:	ah ok
[10:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	The Nicholaz Edition also has a glitch that sometimes when you open an IM, it won't go to the bottom of the text in window (loading from previous session). I don't know if anyone else has it on the release client.
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	would you guys who just mentioned scrollbar jumping issues add those to the comments in this bug?
[10:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	k
[10:23]	Torley Linden:	Yes by all means, please add your insights and thank you!
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	probably we can address them all at once
[10:23]	Saijanai Dagger:	I'll double check on my outline list thing and add it as well
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	so it would be good to get them in a single issue
[10:23]	Torley Linden:	It'd sure be helpful to squash these related annoyances.
[10:24]	Torley Linden:	Good idea Ben.
[10:24]	Saijanai Dagger:	its probably all a scroll panel issue
[10:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Scroll meta issue
[10:24]	Saijanai Dagger:	which might actually apply to folders as well since I think that that is where it hooks into the GUI hierarchy
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	interestingly, it *doesn't* stay locked to the bottom sometimes when you want it to
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	like when you shrink the window
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	the scrollbar moves up
[10:24]	Torley Linden remembers the classic Mac manual that literally explained scroll bars by showing a picture of a scroll.
[10:25]	Daedalus Young:	yes, noticed that too
[10:25]	Torley Linden:	Hmmm Ben but I've seen that behavior in other apps like Firefox too.
[10:25]	Saijanai Dagger:	wen we get the GUI straightend out, we need the equivalent of the old Apple Human INterfacxe guidelines
[10:25]	Torley Linden:	Or even Windows Explorer or Notepad.
[10:25]	Saijanai Dagger:	(unfortunately even Appple doesn't ahve that any more)
[10:25]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Sai, we do want to create UI guidelines at some point
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	so much to do...
[10:26]	Torley Linden:	I know someone left a comment on the viewer refresh public wiki page insisting we read those guidelines. :)
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	haha yes, I saw that :-)
[10:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - maybe sooner then later that should be done, so "fixes" for existing bugs can match that guideline instead of having to do it twice, one to fix the current misbehavier, then again to "fix" it to be proper
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	actually it's been mentioned a few times
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	good point Kooky
[10:27]	Benjamin Linden:	we have a very small user experience team though
[10:27]	Benjamin Linden:	so it's hard to find the time
[10:27]	Torley Linden:	I think some of it is a chicken-and-egg thing tho, because as actual cases come up, guidelines can be formed from those experiences...
[10:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	A delay of a week or two now to wait and write em sure as hell beats months of work re-writing stuff later
[10:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	Some is, I'm sure Torley
[10:27]	Torley Linden:	so at least part of it is developing it empirically from prior instances... and basing future models on that, e.g., how the debit dialog got colored yellow. :)
[10:28]	Benjamin Linden:	this would be a good topic for thursday's meeting
[10:28]	Torley Linden:	Kooky, I agree about getting organized tho.
[10:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gosh knows its hard to decide how something should work when there are no limits...
[10:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	heh
[10:28]	Benjamin Linden:	another thing you could do Kooky is bring it up at Thursday's office hours
[10:29]	Benjamin Linden:	if you're thinking about working on something and want some input
[10:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'll try to remember if I make it
[10:29]	Benjamin Linden:	that would be a great forum to get feedback
[10:29]	Torley Linden:	:-D
[10:29]	Benjamin Linden:	so Torley did we import 2118?
[10:29]	Torley Linden:	Yes we did!
[10:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	More of a "its broke fix it" finder and bizzare idea generator than actually working on things but...
[10:29]	Benjamin Linden:	ok great
[10:30]	Torley Linden:	Thanks for comments on it, Daed, Jacek, Wyn!
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	next up
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2513
[10:30]	Daedalus Young:	yw
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, thanks guys
[10:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'll miss your Thursday meeting Benjamin, I have a temp QA job that runs from 4pm to 10pm. So I'll be in an RL commute then.
[10:30]	Squirrel Wood:	Windows that don't use camera controls for anything prevent camera controls working!
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	ah, sorry we'll miss you Wyn!
[10:30]	Torley Linden:	Awww have a good one Wyn.
[10:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'll miss the meeting too.
[10:31]	Squirrel Wood:	thou shalt be deerly missed
[10:31]	Wyn Galbraith is desperate for work so farming herself out for document QA and dataentry. :)
[10:31]	Daedalus Young:	ah yes, open inventory, hold alt and arrows left/right
[10:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	I think 2513 is just a "it has to be this way"
[10:31]	Wyn Galbraith:	Have to get tier for my SL habit.
[10:31]	Torley Linden:	Hmmm focus model needs to be thought out carefully in VWR-2513.
[10:31]	Daedalus Young:	expected:cam moves, obeserved:nothing happens
[10:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	because some of the combos are conventional
[10:31]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I agree Torley
[10:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	ie: alt-w closes window
[10:32]	Torley Linden:	I disagree that "camera controls should ALWAYS work", as Haravikk points out himself, Alt-arrow keys are used within some windows.
[10:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh wait
[10:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	my bad
[10:32]	Kooky Jetaime shuts up
[10:32]	Benjamin Linden:	this one isn't really a bug per se
[10:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	((confusing control and alt again.. *facepalms..))
[10:33]	Benjamin Linden:	there is a strange keyboard nav fluke in the communicate window where if you hold down alt and cycle through the windows using the arrow keys, you get stuck on the contacts window
[10:33]	Wyn Galbraith patpats Kooky, "Happens to everyone once in a while"
[10:33]	Torley Linden:	Ah yeah I recall that one being reported Ben.
[10:33]	Torley Linden:	(I reported it, LOL.)
[10:33]	Squirrel Wood:	Someone needs to learn to utilize the mouse there methinks
[10:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha Squirrel
[10:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	But what if we have a cat, so we can't have one?
[10:34]	Squirrel Wood:	then use a trackball :p
[10:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's easy enough to hit escape to break keyboard focus so you can use cam around with alt+arrows.
[10:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hahahahah
[10:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, unless you're editing a notecard. Then you can't use escape.
[10:34]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm thinking we should resolve this one as won't fix
[10:34]	Torley Linden:	I think so too.
[10:34]	Jacek Antonelli nods
[10:34]	Squirrel Wood:	Yep
[10:34]	Torley Linden:	*resolves it*
[10:34]	Torley Linden:	Thanks for the consensus.
[10:34]	Daedalus Young:	at least an incosistency: in prefs > Text Chat if you have Arrow keys always move avatar checked, having focus on the chatbar in history window disregards this
[10:34]	Squirrel Wood:	Most people do expect the current behavior
[10:34]	Benjamin Linden:	did you add a note about the discussion Torley?
[10:34]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL Holding down alt-ctrl and using the arrow keys changes my tablet pc's screen orientation. You guys look funny upside down.
[10:34]	Torley Linden:	Yes, doing that now.
[10:35]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Torley
[10:36]	Torley Linden:	Done.
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm this next one is interesting
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2536
[10:36]	Torley Linden:	HAHAHAHA.
[10:36]	Squirrel Wood:	Second Life installer/uninstaller should work when alternate version is running
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[10:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaah
[10:37]	Squirrel Wood votes for won'tfix as you can never know where a user wants to install the application
[10:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	well
[10:37]	Torley Linden:	Hmmm this report is incorrect.
[10:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	this isn't a UI bug
[10:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	1
[10:37]	Torley Linden:	I've been able to uninstall certain viewers while having others installed.
[10:37]	Daedalus Young:	agrees with Kooky
[10:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	Second, the Install program should have a meta issue for all of its ..deficiencies
[10:37]	Benjamin Linden:	I did try installing the other day and it wouldn't let me
[10:37]	Torley Linden:	So let's remove that Component... want to leave a comment, Kooky?
[10:37]	Benjamin Linden:	(two different versions)
[10:37]	Torley Linden:	Ben, hmmm... did you check which directories it was installing to? What'd it tell you?
[10:38]	Squirrel Wood:	I guess the installer just checks is a secondlife process is running and if yes, blocks.
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I was running RC and trying to install release
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	they install into different directories
[10:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm agreeing with Squirrel
[10:38]	Torley Linden:	AHHH OH, now I understand this...
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm pretty sure... but I would have to doublecheck
[10:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	(You silly Windows users, with your fancy buggy "installer programs". ;D)
[10:38]	Torley Linden:	I retract what I said, what Squirrel said is what I experience too.
[10:38]	Wyn Galbraith:	They do.
[10:38]	Torley Linden:	Yeah, it says "Second Life is already running".
[10:38]	Daedalus Young:	using different versions cause other weirdnesses too, I think you can't always keep different versions completely apart from eachother
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	right
[10:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think it's this...
[10:39]	Daedalus Young:	I run the RC from the Disk Image, probably not the best thing to do either :P
[10:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	What happens is the other versions get installed...
[10:39]	Squirrel Wood:	blocking install in this case makes sense as the client may have several files locked/opened that the installer may have to replace.
[10:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	Torley, want me to create a meta issue for the installer and link it?
[10:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	But... they use the same application directory.
[10:39]	Torley Linden:	Yes please do Kooky. :)
[10:39]	Squirrel Wood:	or, the user may try to install over the currently running version
[10:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	OK
[10:40]	Torley Linden:	LOL Daed, it should be fine I think, because it still creates a settings file properly.
[10:40]	Daedalus Young:	it does
[10:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	oops different issue
[10:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	Torley - Misc or VWR for this? since it is and isn't really a viewer issue
[10:40]	Daedalus Young:	but opening slurls from my browser attempts to start up the official viewer
[10:40]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm fine with importing this one, although I think it's pretty low-pri
[10:40]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd MISC it
[10:40]	Torley Linden:	MISC it.
[10:41]	Torley Linden:	Ben, want me to downgrade it to Small priority then?
[10:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin
[10:41]	Torley Linden:	Kooky, are you moving it to MISC?
[10:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	I can give you a 2 minute fix for this "bug"
[10:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	I can't move issues, only Lindens can
[10:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm writing a Meta issue under Misc for the installer though
[10:42]	Torley Linden:	Ahhh rite, thanx.
[10:43]	Benjamin Linden:	who's cube is that?
[10:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	((And the fix is: Simply rename the EXE file created for each different version of SL. ie: secondlifeaditi.exe secondlife.exe secondliferc.exe, when it searches for the process, it won't find it for that particualr version))
[10:43]	Torley Linden:	Kooky, sounds like a good comment to add too.
[10:43]	Kooky Jetaime points at the Squirrel
[10:43]	Squirrel Wood:	the weighted companion cube is an asset you get to use in the game Portal on a specific test chamber
[10:44]	Wyn Galbraith:	I haven't had a problem uninstalling other versions of SL, so I don't understand this one.
[10:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	The Orange Box Squirel?
[10:44]	Squirrel Wood:	Ya
[10:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thought the voice was familiar
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	is Portal a game in SL or something else?
[10:44]	Squirrel Wood:	not in SL
[10:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Orange Box is one reason I envy Windows users >:P)
[10:44]	Torley Linden:	It's part of the Half-Life 2 Orange Box combo along with Team Fortress 2 and other stuff, Ben.
[10:44]	Torley Linden:	Hahaha.
[10:45]	Wyn Galbraith:	Half-life
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm ok
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	I have HL2
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[10:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	Installer Meta Issue (Kinda stubby) MISC-750
[10:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	(I just have to pretend by back door is a portal, and use my imagination... *sigh*)
[10:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thought I saw ben getting a glazed over eye look there for a sec
[10:45]	Torley Linden:	LOL Jacek... <.<
[10:45]	Squirrel Wood:	Portal is a 1st person puzzle game :)
[10:45]	Torley Linden:	Thx Kooky!
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	so are we importing VWR-2536
[10:46]	Torley Linden:	*links it*
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	no, I love half life!
[10:46]	Torley Linden:	Yes Ben, but did you want it to be Small priority
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	sure
[10:46]	Torley Linden:	K.
[10:46]	Torley Linden:	Done.
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	small is fine
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	ok thanks
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	ok next up
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2559
[10:46]	Squirrel Wood:	inventory multi-preview windows can be scaled too small
[10:46]	Torley Linden:	Oh, is there a repro for this one now? *looks*
[10:46]	Squirrel Wood:	video and screenshots
[10:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Torley, can you send a monkey over to kick the jira box, its being painfully slowww
[10:47]	Torley Linden:	The screenshots were there last time. *watches the video*
[10:47]	Daedalus Young:	video is new
[10:47]	Torley Linden:	Kooky, I'll let Rob Linden know, public JIRA is hosted by Cascadeo, who also hosts the wiki.
[10:47]	Torley Linden:	It pains me too!
[10:47]	Benjamin Linden:	this looks worth importing on the basis of the pictures alone
[10:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	xD
[10:47]	Squirrel Wood:	repro'd it
[10:48]	Squirrel Wood:	Just open several files in a preview (so they get tabbed)
[10:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	The wiki is always slow... maybe I should add a issue about the issue tracker ?? :D
[10:48]	Squirrel Wood:	then resize that preview window.
[10:48]	Torley Linden:	OK the video looks pretty straightforward.
[10:48]	Torley Linden:	*tries to repro*
[10:48]	Squirrel Wood:	works with sound files
[10:48]	Daedalus Young:	I still don't know how to open a Preview window
[10:49]	Torley Linden:	Hm, I no longer get that small little properties window in WindLight...
[10:49]	Squirrel Wood:	select several files, then right-click => open
[10:49]	Torley Linden:	I thought you double-click on an object to see it?
[10:49]	Benjamin Linden:	in inventory?
[10:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Pssst. Torley. Send me Windlight and I'll see if I can repro.... >_>)
[10:49]	Torley Linden:	Hmmm I don't see that, Squirrel.
[10:49]	Squirrel Wood:	yes
[10:49]	Torley Linden:	LOL Jacek. :D
[10:49]	Daedalus Young:	oh I see
[10:49]	Torley Linden:	The Properties windows I'm seeing don't have a resize widget.
[10:49]	Daedalus Young:	it's too small by default on 800x600 window anyway
[10:49]	Squirrel Wood:	Torley, select 3, 4 sound files in your inventory, then right-click and open them. preview window opens with the sounds shown as tabs.
[10:50]	Squirrel Wood:	now resize the window.
[10:50]	Daedalus Young:	reproes for me
[10:50]	Torley Linden:	OK Squirrel, I see that.
[10:50]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it's pretty clear these repro
[10:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Whoa. I didn't even know you could have multiple tabbed previews in one window.
[10:50]	Torley Linden:	Squirrel, what do I do now?
[10:50]	Benjamin Linden:	we should probably just import and move on
[10:50]	Torley Linden:	K... I'll take yer word for it.
[10:51]	Wyn Galbraith does that with textures all the time.
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	haha sorry Torley, you can continue with your test if you want!
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry
[10:51]	Torley Linden:	No worries! =)
[10:51]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[10:51]	Daedalus Young:	never knew it because hitting enter with multiple items selected used to crash :P
[10:51]	Jacek Antonelli tries to drag-and-drop individual ones on each other to make tabbed ones... ah well. No luck.
[10:52]	Torley Linden:	It's just weird how I don't see a resize widget on my Properties...
[10:52]	Daedalus Young:	select multiple, then hit enter
[10:52]	Daedalus Young:	or
[10:52]	Daedalus Young:	select multiple, then right-click and select Open
[10:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. I just wish I could blob together ones I already had open
[10:52]	Daedalus Young:	it seems it's a half-developed feature
[10:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Heh. I didn't even know about this feature 2 minutes ago, and now I have wishes about it.)
[10:53]	Torley Linden:	OK next...
[10:53]	Benjamin Linden:	ok let's try to nail a couple more
[10:53]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1845
[10:54]	Benjamin Linden:	I wish Kitty was here so I could ask her what she means by, "I don't feel too comfortable posting a step-by-step repro since there's probably a good chance this might end up as a "won't fix" in which case a repro does more harm than good. "
[10:54]	Squirrel Wood:	Texture permissions for "Save Texture As" aren't enforced
[10:54]	Daedalus Young:	seems a security issue
[10:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	She doesn't want to say how to save a texture file using the save as
[10:54]	Daedalus Young:	not UI
[10:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[10:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	this is definatly exploit area
[10:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes
[10:54]	Torley Linden:	Hmmm...
[10:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Delete 1 line from the client source, and you can save even non-modifiable textures, it seems
[10:55]	Benjamin Linden:	oh I see
[10:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	?
[10:55]	Squirrel Wood:	It doesn't really matter. You can fish them out of the cache just as easy
[10:55]	Daedalus Young:	yes, but you can always change the source
[10:55]	Benjamin Linden:	if this is an exploit we should import it
[10:56]	Benjamin Linden:	then someone can follow up with Kitty on repro steps
[10:56]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you think Torley?
[10:56]	Squirrel Wood:	a fix is right there
[10:56]	Squirrel Wood:	names the file and line
[10:56]	Torley Linden:	I think it's a good idea to import it , yes.
[10:57]	Benjamin Linden:	ok let's do it
[10:57]	Torley Linden:	And ask someone like... Phoenix who has handled many SL exploit things.
[10:57]	Benjamin Linden:	triage will get it to the right folks
[10:57]	Torley Linden:	K, *imports*
[10:57]	Benjamin Linden:	next
[10:57]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1852
[10:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's a tricky issue, but not so appropriate for UI triage
[10:57]	Squirrel Wood:	Ooo! Torley, SVC-392 is now a havok 4 issue ^^
[10:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, hey. My bug!
[10:58]	Torley Linden waits for JIRA to catch up.
[10:58]	Squirrel Wood:	Edit Manipulators have Wrong Orientation with Local Ruler Mode on Linked Objects
[10:58]	Torley Linden:	Nice repro Jacek.
[10:58]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm I'm not sure I'm enough of a builder to be able to parse this
[10:58]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds like there's some dissent
[10:58]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've seen something like this.
[10:59]	Torley Linden:	I haven't tried the repro yet myself, but Jacek, that sounds like a rather arbitrary way to decide the orientation of the axis.
[10:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nod*
[10:59]	Wyn Galbraith:	Only it wasn't linking it was if you change the type of prim, the orientation changes and resizing doesn't take effect. I haven't worked out the steps yet so haven't entered it in jira.
[10:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Arbitrary and undocumented
[10:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	And confusing, too >_<
[10:59]	Torley Linden:	Ugh.
[10:59]	Torley Linden:	Hm, Richard would know more about how this is meant to work.
[11:00]	Torley Linden:	Or what the history of this is, perhaps...
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	perhaps we should import it to start an internal discussion?
[11:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sometimes you have to pull the prim one way then snap it back with a control-Z to get the orientation to correct.
[11:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nod*
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	or we could point richard to the public task and have him comment there
[11:01]	Torley Linden:	I think the info here is good to import.
[11:01]	Wyn Galbraith will try to work out the steps of what she's seen. "My other problem is my graphic chips, I have been searching for a system that follows SL requirements I can afford. Sometimes I wonder if it's my chipset and not an SL bug.
[11:01]	Torley Linden:	Some of the subtleties sound like things our Knowledge Base documentation team should clarify in the building articles too.
[11:01]	Torley Linden:	(After this bug is fixed.)
[11:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	What building articles?
[11:02]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds good Torley
[11:02]	Benjamin Linden:	and I think that's a good stopping point
[11:02]	Wyn Galbraith screeches to a stop.
[11:02]	Torley Linden:	Wyn: Some of the KB documents on how to use the build tools. :)
[11:02]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[11:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	What's KB?
[11:03]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[11:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	xD
[11:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	OH Nevermind
[11:03]	Benjamin Linden:	that's so perfect!
[11:03]	Kooky Jetaime chuckles
[11:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	doh
[11:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Knowledge Base
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	Knowledge Base, http://secondlife.com/support
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	No worries. :D
[11:03]	Benjamin Linden:	I want a weighted companion cube!
[11:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Any chance I can get a copy of those sounds? :D
[11:03]	Wyn Galbraith is so slow today.
[11:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	I guess I should read those someday.
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	Haha I'd like a companion cube... thank you!
[11:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Help MEEE Help you!
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	Read my mind, Squirrel.
[11:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea
[11:04]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[11:04]	Torley Linden:	Lovely, and here we are.
[11:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmmmm.... it's possible, in SL!
[11:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks for the meeting.
[11:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	squirrel, where can you get one of those?
[11:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	If you made a cube of exactly the right size and material, it could have the same weight as your avatar!
[11:04]	Don Misfit wishes the KB was outside of the login-required-Support-Portal
[11:04]	Saijanai Dagger:	torley, any comments on that keyword browser?
[11:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Then it would be a weighted companion cube
[11:04]	Saijanai Dagger:	I've tidied up the interface
[11:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahahaaha
[11:04]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Don, we're hoping to fix that problem
[11:04]	Don Misfit:	yay :)
[11:04]	Torley Linden:	Sai: Not in particular but it's great you're working on it.
[11:05]	Torley Linden:	Don: I totally agree, I'd like to link directly.
[11:05]	Benjamin Linden:	it looks great to me, Sai
[11:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd love it if you could add some screenshots to a jira task
[11:05]	Benjamin Linden:	the video is a little blurry
[11:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Mmm. SVC-392 is now a havok 4 beta issue ^^
[11:05]	Saijanai Dagger:	My lst step is to wiere a web browser to that button. I'm assuming that an external browser will be a better bet
[11:05]	Saijanai Dagger:	Sure
[11:05]	Torley Linden:	YouTube tends to blur stuff up, grrrr.
[11:06]	Torley Linden:	Take care everyone and thanks for coming to our triage!
[11:06]	Daedalus Young:	yt is terribly blurry
[11:06]	Saijanai Dagger:	I'd add it to veoh, but not sure if eeyrone can use veoh
[11:06]	Squirrel Wood:	have fun ^^
[11:06]	Saijanai Dagger:	http://www.veoh.com
[11:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ta ta!
[11:06]	Benjamin Linden:	by folks, thanks again for coming!
[11:06]	Torley Linden:	Bye all... and thx for triagin'. =D
[11:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[11:06]	Wyn Galbraith takes off.
[11:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	B-bye!!! :D
[11:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	whats Veoh?
[11:06]	Saijanai Dagger:	take care all