User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-01-17

[15:01] Squirrel Wood: Hello Benjamin ^^ [15:01] You: hi guys :-) [15:01] You: how is everyone? [15:01] You: I guess we're still waiting for folks to show up from open source? [15:01] Squirrel Wood: tired :) [15:02] Squirrel Wood: there weren't that many attending the open source meeting as the agenda was rather empty [15:02] Squirrel Wood: In the meantime, http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08011703.html ^^ [15:03] Jacek Antonelli: Heya [15:03] You: hi Jacek [15:04] You: we were just talking about that login progress screen issue again, Jacek [15:04] You: :-) [15:04] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah? I've made some good progress on that [15:06] Jacek Antonelli: Right now the two big issues are: it's being drawn as red for some reason, like it's forgetting the green and blue channels when it loads the texture; [15:06] Jacek Antonelli: and also, I'm not sure how to get it to stretch to fill the screen [15:06] Jacek Antonelli: In the C code, it's being defined as 2/3rds of the screen width [15:06] You: oh that's outstanding news, Jacek! [15:07] You: which part can't you get to fill the screen? [15:07] You: the progress bar itself? [15:07] You: or the overall window [15:07] You: I actually think we don't need it to stretch [15:07] Jacek Antonelli: Overall. Even centered would be good, but I'm not quite sure how to do that [15:08] Jacek Antonelli: In a resolution-independent way [15:08] Squirrel Wood: source code or xml wise? [15:08] You: because on large monitors it gets too big [15:09] You: I see, so you're not sure how to determine the middle of the screen? [15:09] Squirrel Wood: => table width 100%, center align. then define whatever needed as percentage of the available space => auto-stretch [15:09] You: welcome Harleen [15:09] Squirrel Wood: can even be done using css [15:09] Jacek Antonelli: That would be nice, Squirrel. But this is XUI :\ [15:10] You: lol [15:10] You: I was like, isn't that web code? [15:10] Squirrel Wood: ^^ [15:10] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure it even understands percents... I tried putting width="66%" and it drew it 66 pixels wide [15:10] You: yeah I don't think it does [15:10] You: XUI is very poorly documented :-( [15:11] Jacek Antonelli: There's a halign="center" attribute that I've seen used for text, but I'm not sure if widgets are supposed to respect that, or only text [15:11] Squirrel Wood: http://www.xoetrope.com/zone/intro.php?zone=XUI [15:11] Squirrel Wood: that one ? [15:11] You: hi Alice! [15:11] aliceinwire Bleac: hello! :) [15:12] Jacek Antonelli: Squirrel: Nope, LL's homegrown XML User Interface files [15:12] Squirrel Wood: humm [15:12] aliceinwire Bleac: sorry i'm afk for compiling mail with the list of new mentor [15:12] aliceinwire Bleac: hello! [15:12] Jacek Antonelli: Hi alice! [15:12] Squirrel Wood: http://docs.xuiframework.com/index.jsp ? ^^ [15:12] You: haha no this is a different XUI, Squirrel [15:12] You: our XUI has very little documentation [15:13] Squirrel Wood: then do what the gridmonkeys do ^^ [15:13] Squirrel Wood: beat on it till it works ^^ [15:13] You: although to be fair, a couple of our devs are starting to do some class reference [15:13] Jacek Antonelli: lol [15:13] Jacek Antonelli: I don't suppose there's a DTD for XUI lying around anywhere at LL, is there...? >_> [15:13] You: oh I forgot about follow [15:13] You: do you know about follow=left|right, Jacek? [15:14] Jacek Antonelli: I tried that, didn't seem to work, but I'll hammer on it [15:14] You: this was the suggestion I got from Richard Linden: [15:14] You: attach it to the root view with the appropriate follows flags [15:15] Squirrel Wood: Just found.... http://luxor-xul.sourceforge.net/ [15:15] You: I'm not sure if that helps at all [15:16] Jacek Antonelli: *nod* Well, as I have it right now, there's a panel with some child widgets, text and a progress_bar [15:16] Jacek Antonelli: Basically I took the existing "progress view" and split it up into the panel and widget [15:17] Jacek Antonelli: The panel is getting stretched to the full screen, but the widgets stay in place. I think. [15:17] You: the widgets are already centered though, right? [15:18] Jacek Antonelli: Right now they're manually positioned to be centered. And at 800x600, they'd be centered correctly [15:18] Jacek Antonelli: *pulls up the XUI and some code to check her facts* [15:19] Malbers Linden: hi all. [15:19] Jacek Antonelli: heya Malbers! [15:19] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy malbers [15:19] Squirrel Wood: Hello Malbers :) [15:19] You: hey Malbers [15:19] You: oh hi McCabe, I didn't see you sneak in [15:19] aliceinwire Bleac: hello! malbers [15:19] McCabe Maxsted is ninja :) [15:19] You: Jacek, Richard also suggested this: [15:19] You: I think I understand what she's asking [15:16] richard: if you want an element to stay centered, but of fixed size [15:17] richard: (as opposed to growing and shrinking with the window) [15:17] richard: you can either do it with code, or use layout_stacks [15:17] richard: to create a grid [15:20] You: layout_stack is a new XUI layout control [15:20] Jacek Antonelli: ahh [15:20] You: so you might not be familair with it [15:20] You: we use it in the communicate window, to slide open the participant list [15:20] Jacek Antonelli: I saw it lying around as I was sniffing through the code, hehe [15:20] You: yeah you may want to experiment with that [15:20] Jacek Antonelli: okay [15:21] Jacek Antonelli: Other than the layout issues and the weird colors on my client, it's just about there [15:22] Jacek Antonelli: The text displays and changes as expected, and the progress bar fills up [15:22] You: great, I'm very excited to hear that! [15:22] McCabe Maxsted: you're creating a home brew, jacek? [15:22] You: Malbers, Jacek is working on the login progress screen we were discussing [15:22] Malbers Linden: Nice! [15:22] You: I asked Jacek to expose the login progress screen to XML so we could style it to be more attractive and legible [15:23] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe: I'm going to submit a patch to get it into the official viewer, when I'm done [15:23] Malbers Linden: hench the talk of layout issues [15:23] Jacek Antonelli: yep [15:23] McCabe Maxsted: ahhh, that's grand. I look forward to seeing it :) [15:23] Squirrel Wood: \o/ [15:24] Squirrel Wood: \o/ ..... [15:24] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe: If I do everything right, you won't even notice the difference ^_^ at least until the Dazzle team makes it purty [15:24] You: soon, hopefully! [15:25] You: we're looking to have a Dazzle First Look out in a few weeks [15:25] You: very excited [15:25] Jacek Antonelli: \o/ [15:25] Squirrel Wood: combined with windlight ? [15:25] McCabe Maxsted: oooh [15:25] You: it's come a long way since the early preview files [15:25] You: I'm not sure if it will have windlight in it since windlight will be merging with release about the same time we create the first look [15:25] Jacek Antonelli: Oooo ^_^ [15:25] You: it's just a matter of timing [15:26] Jacek Antonelli: I tried to update my working copy to the latest first look with the newfangled login page, but I could never get the login page to work :( Had to revert back to the 1.18.5 series [15:27] aliceinwire Bleac: that's cool [15:27] You: ah yes, the new login screen [15:27] You: that caused quite a few headaches [15:27] McCabe Maxsted: well, that should be okay; the html login is being reverted in the next viewer if I read right [15:27] Jacek Antonelli: I was glad to hear it's going away (for now, until the wrinkles are ironed out) [15:27] aliceinwire Bleac: you have to delete [15:27] aliceinwire Bleac: it [15:27] aliceinwire Bleac: than reinstall [15:27] Squirrel Wood: html login takes about half a minute to load for me on average [15:27] You: yes, I think it was the right decision to postpone [15:28] You: so now that we have a few more folks here I wanted to throw out a topic for conversation [15:28] Jacek Antonelli: (*sniffs at layout_stack* Mmmm, min_width and auto_resize. Just what the doctor ordered, I think.) [15:28] You: one of the projects we're going to work on this quarter (at least get designed) is an improved system for accessing and managing landmarks [15:29] aliceinwire Bleac: that's a cool stuff [15:29] Jacek Antonelli: \o/ Favorites list plz? :D [15:29] You: so I wanted to talk to you guys a little bit about how you use Landmarks and Picks today, and get a sense for what you'd like to see improved [15:29] aliceinwire Bleac: favorites list is in the misty tools [15:29] You: what's the misty tools, Alice? [15:29] Squirrel Wood: I hardly ever use landmarks [15:29] McCabe Maxsted: it's a hud [15:30] You: ah ok [15:30] aliceinwire Bleac: yes make by mistical cookie [15:30] You: why don't you use Landmarks Squirrel? [15:30] Squirrel Wood: because it is a pain in the behind to keep them current [15:30] aliceinwire Bleac: and you have a list of recent place you have see with landmark [15:30] aliceinwire Bleac: and a favorite list [15:30] aliceinwire Bleac: i have all i need here [15:30] Squirrel Wood: so what I would like to see is a way to "verify" if a landmark is still valid [15:31] aliceinwire Bleac: is free for mentors [15:31] McCabe Maxsted: the biggest problem I have witih landmarks is finding the one I'm looking for. I have a folder of 200 LMs and often I forget to go back and rename them all with keywords. A favorites list would be very nice. So would a teleport history [15:31] aliceinwire Bleac: you can make folder [15:31] Jacek Antonelli: Personally, I have a handful of places that I visit quite often. Home, fave hangout, store, the dock where I start sailing. Some of them I put in my picks so I have them handy [15:31] Squirrel Wood: you can make folders, yes. but they won't help [15:31] You: I was just about to ask, can't you make a folder called "favorites"? [15:31] aliceinwire Bleac: teleport history is implemented in the misty tool [15:31] aliceinwire Bleac: yep [15:31] McCabe Maxsted: I tried using folders, but no they don't help; it's easier to have one long list, that way you can look at places and think, "okay I visted there after here" and narrow down an LM [15:31] You: what functionality is missing from using folders [15:32] aliceinwire Bleac: i have a folder called linden office [15:32] aliceinwire Bleac: _:P [15:32] You: so you use the color of the landmark to tell if you've visited that place, McCabe? [15:32] Squirrel Wood: when you open the map window there is a landmark dropdown "My landmarks" - all your landmarks show up there alphabetically sorted - regardless of your organizational attempts in your inventory... [15:32] McCabe Maxsted: I use the sim name; are the colors significant? I've never noticed [15:33] Jacek Antonelli: they're a duller color before you use them the first time [15:33] Jacek Antonelli: It took me a while to figure that out, hehe [15:33] McCabe Maxsted: huh; I always thought it was just a color change between versions and they were older LMs [15:34] McCabe Maxsted: which seems rather silly now that I think about it [15:34] You: hmm, maybe we should rethink those colors [15:34] You: in dazzle I think the color change is a bit more prominent [15:35] Jacek Antonelli: One thing that frustrates me is that every single landmark in my inventory clutters up the pull-down on the map window [15:35] Jacek Antonelli: Buy something from a store? It usually has a LM in it --> more clutter [15:35] Jacek Antonelli: the type-ahead search helps there, but I've given up any hope of finding what I need by scrolling through [15:36] You: so any landmark in your inventory gets added to that dropdown in Map? [15:36] Jacek Antonelli: yep [15:36] Squirrel Wood: correct [15:36] Jacek Antonelli: Even duplicates [15:36] You: yikes I could see how that would be annoying [15:36] You: hi Stephany! [15:36] Squirrel Wood: Hello Stephany! [15:36] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Stephany! [15:36] McCabe Maxsted: hehe same here jacek; I havefar too many duplicates [15:36] aliceinwire Bleac: welcome stephany [15:36] You: Stephany is the PM on the Landmarks project [15:36] Stephany Linden: hi everyone! [15:36] Stephany Linden: thanks for coming [15:36] aliceinwire Bleac: oh cool [15:36] You: she's here to listen to your thoughts on Landmarks [15:36] Jacek Antonelli: I must have 200 different landmarks that show up on that menu [15:37] Malbers Linden: oooo, hi stephany [15:37] Stephany Linden: Yes - PLEASE tell me about landmarks :) [15:37] You: I'll give her the transcript for what we discussed already [15:37] McCabe Maxsted: it would be nice if we could rename an LM while we create it [15:37] Stephany Linden: and how to make them much much better [15:37] You: how do you generally go about creating new landmarks? [15:37] Squirrel Wood: landmarks? I just have way too many of 'em ^^ [15:38] McCabe Maxsted: generally I find a place I want to visit, I tp there, create an LM, then rename it if it's not memorable [15:38] Ruby Scissor: I'm...on a table [15:38] Squirrel Wood: Me, I hardly ever create landmarks as I usually know my places and mapstalking friends does the rest [15:38] Jacek Antonelli: I use World -> Create Landmark Here. ... Is there another way to make a LM? [15:38] You: McCabe when you say "create a landmark", specifically how? [15:38] You: are you doing it from the menus? [15:38] McCabe Maxsted: world, create LM [15:38] You: ok [15:39] You: do others have different methods for creating landmarks? [15:39] Jacek Antonelli: Creating a landmark from the map would be nice. Instead of having to TP there, then make a landmark, then TP back to where you were [15:39] You: or ways you wish you *could* create a landmark? [15:39] You: good suggestion Jacek [15:39] McCabe Maxsted: is there one? I know you used to be able to create a landmark from the map but that was cut due to database load [15:39] aliceinwire Bleac: we can make a tool for export landmarks in a note with all the slurl [15:40] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, it's tricky because technically some parcels could disable the ability to create a landmark [15:40] aliceinwire Bleac: can helping who whant put lot of landmarks in here site [15:40] Squirrel Wood: landmark://Beaumont/152/163/46/Benjamins-Office [15:40] McCabe Maxsted: a favorites list in our profile, where we could drag an LM into a slot, say; that would be really nice; the current use of picks to store lists of LMs and friends feels very kludgy [15:40] You: Sorry, Alice, I'm not quite following [15:41] You: yes, I'd like to talk about the relationship between landmarks and picks [15:41] Jacek Antonelli: I think she wants a way to export a list of LMs as SLURLs, so you can post them on the web or wherever [15:41] You: ah I see, is that right Alice? so you'd like to see your landmarks on the web? [15:41] aliceinwire Bleac: yes [15:42] McCabe Maxsted: ah I made a short script that does that, but it only works on non renamed lms. Do you want it alice? [15:42] Jacek Antonelli: Sometimes I like to put SLURLs on my blog [15:42] Stephany Linden: I'm interested in what everyone thinks about finding things online when the client is or is not open [15:42] Stephany Linden: and any differences, new things, etc. you might like to see there [15:42] You: would it be useful to be able to manage your bookmarks at secondlife.com? [15:43] McCabe Maxsted: I do a lot of my exploring through blogs, stephany, so slurls are quite handy for me [15:43] aliceinwire Bleac: or a widget for a site that give the slurl of last place you have see [15:43] Dru Yokosuka: hey guys [15:43] Jacek Antonelli: hiya Dru [15:43] McCabe Maxsted: hmm; if they were accompanied by bookmarks in profiles, then yes, but the profile should really be key. There's a higih demand for bookmarks in profiles, as you can probably tell from looking at everyone's profile here [15:43] Stephany Linden: hi dru [15:43] aliceinwire Bleac: have more interaction web <> LM [15:44] Dru Yokosuka: whats going on here? [15:44] McCabe Maxsted: we're talkign about landmarks dru, and ways to improve them [15:44] You: so you'd like to see the Picks feature expanded? [15:44] Jacek Antonelli: Idea: if you could drag a LM to your picks to make a new Pick, that would be pretty darn handy [15:44] McCabe Maxsted nods. It really would be [15:44] You: I think McCabe suggested that earlier too, Jacek [15:44] You: I like it [15:45] You: what if you could just pick an arbitrary set of your landmarks and say, share these with my friends, or share with everyone? [15:45] McCabe Maxsted: I'd like to seperate teh picks tab into two tabs: one for people, and the other for places [15:45] aliceinwire Bleac: yes [15:45] Stephany Linden: nice [15:45] aliceinwire Bleac: i ahave think it too [15:45] McCabe Maxsted: how do you mean benjamin? [15:45] aliceinwire Bleac: but i have not say how do it [15:45] aliceinwire Bleac: maybe share a folder? [15:46] aliceinwire Bleac: with other friends [15:46] You: right now we have this separate notion of Picks and Landmarks [15:46] Roof Doors: Dru Yokosuka is at the door. [15:46] Roof Doors: Dru Yokosuka is at the door. [15:46] You: but they're very similar [15:46] You: what if we could figure out a way to combine the functionality of both [15:46] You: a "best of both worlds" kind of scenario [15:46] aliceinwire Bleac: i think w can add the possibilty to share folder with friends can be a cool stuff [15:47] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, similar in some ways. Although people use Picks in a lot of different ways. Lots of people make a pick with a picture of their friends, and say nice things about them there. In those cases, the "location" of the pick is irrelevant [15:47] Stephany Linden: in other words, how would you feel if picks and landmarks were combined in some way? [15:47] Stephany Linden: ah [15:47] You: this social use of picks is interesting [15:47] You: are they linking to that person's place? [15:47] McCabe Maxsted: so say, a folder in your inv you drag LMs to, that shows up in your profile in a picks style format? Is that what you mean? [15:47] You: and using it as sort of a public "friend's list"? [15:47] aliceinwire Bleac: that's cool too [15:47] Jacek Antonelli: Sometimes, Benjamin. I think usually it ends up being "wherever I was when I created the pick", they just don't care about the location [15:48] McCabe Maxsted: it depends on the pick though; a lot of people use picks to store locations [15:48] You: oh so the picture is what ties it to the person? [15:48] Jacek Antonelli: So yeah, those entries are a public friends list sort of thing [15:48] McCabe Maxsted: especially store owners and people who own land [15:48] aliceinwire Bleac: share a all folder with all things isnide [15:48] aliceinwire Bleac: landmark [15:48] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, they name it after the person, or a nickname, "My Sweetie" or something. And then put a picture and some nice text about the person [15:48] aliceinwire Bleac: object [15:48] aliceinwire Bleac: notecard [15:48] McCabe Maxsted: hehe yeah [15:48] aliceinwire Bleac: with friends [15:48] You: McCabe the folder idea you suggested would be one approach [15:49] McCabe Maxsted: look at my picks for some funny quotes, too [15:49] Jacek Antonelli: I could see the "Picks" being expanded into a "Favorites" list with different categories [15:49] Jacek Antonelli: Places, people, things [15:49] Stephany Linden: so what could make picks or the profiles better? [15:49] Stephany Linden: more fun, etc. [15:49] You: Jacek, would you still want a separate list of Landmarks that's just for you? [15:50] You: something besides this public list of "favorites"? [15:50] Jacek Antonelli: Hrmm. Probably, yes. Like, if you have a "Secret getaway", you probably want to have the landmark handy, but not really share it with the world [15:50] You: right ok [15:50] Jacek Antonelli: So maybe the favorites could have the "Share: (no one|friend|everyone)" like you suggested before [15:51] McCabe Maxsted nods. I like that approach [15:51] You: does anyone have thoughts about Stephany's question [15:51] You: how can we make picks more fun? [15:51] You: encourage people to use the more? [15:51] McCabe Maxsted: hmm, right now people use them a lot like Myspace;s top 8 [15:52] Squirrel Wood: make them acorn shaped ;) [15:52] McCabe Maxsted: (wtih accompanying drama when you remove someon from your picks, hehe) [15:52] You: lol [15:52] You: interesting, McCabe [15:52] McCabe Maxsted: so changing the layout to say a series of stacked images, like myspace, might be a thought [15:53] Jacek Antonelli: Hrmm. Maybe if you could see all your friend's picks in one place. But... then you get into the issue of what is a "friend"? Some people have thousands of people on their "Friends List". Business associates, acquaintences that they haven't talked to in a year, etc. [15:53] You: how do you feel about using Inventory to manage your landmarks? [15:54] Squirrel Wood: regarding friends and the friend list... I'd like to see names displayed in different colors depending on how long ago the person last logged in..... makes cleaning up that list a lot easier ^^ [15:54] Jacek Antonelli: hehe [15:55] McCabe Maxsted: honestly? Using the inventory feels like waging a war. It's easier for LMs than other items, I suppose, because they're always saved in one folder, but if there's an easier way I'd definitely be for it [15:55] Stephany Linden: an easier way for landmarks or all inventory in general? [15:55] You: we've talked a fair bit about sharing Landmarks with others but I'd like to know more about using Landmarks to get around SL [15:55] Squirrel Wood: Mayhaps store landmarks client side? [15:56] You: do you use Landmarks to get to frequently visited places? [15:56] Malbers Linden: Squirrel, what would it buy your to store them client side [15:56] McCabe Maxsted: I'd prefer all inventory but let's stick to landmarks. I use my lms to visit frequent places, yes, definitely [15:56] Jacek Antonelli: I think a folder of "favorite landmarks" could be useful, allows nested folders (stores, hangouts, friend's homes) however the person wants to organize it [15:56] Jacek Antonelli: But, opening up the inventory to find a landmark is... suboptimal [15:57] You: is it convenient to go into Inventory to TP to a landmark location or could there be an easier way [15:57] You: ah, Jacek beat me to it :-) [15:57] Squirrel Wood: Hmm [15:57] You: can you think of other ideas besides Inventory? [15:57] You: for accessing landmarks [15:57] Jacek Antonelli: As much as I hate to add more to the already-crowded top menu... I think a "Favorite Landmarks" menu would get a *lot* of use [15:57] Squirrel Wood: How about doing the same with landmarks as with gestures? [15:57] Squirrel Wood: only active ones show up in drop down lists and such [15:57] You: a separate window, Squirrel? [15:57] Jacek Antonelli: Heck, for that matter -- favorite outfits, too! [15:58] McCabe Maxsted: woah; that's an awesome idea, squirrel [15:58] You: ah, have an "active Landmarks" concept [15:58] McCabe Maxsted: that would be a really useful feature to have [15:58] Squirrel Wood: either only show active ones or show active ones on top of the list [15:58] Harleen Gretzky: I already nest folders under my Landmarks folder to make favorites and home LMs on top [15:59] McCabe Maxsted: we wouldn't have to sort through all the ones on the map, and could keep a list of favorites for ourselves for easy tping [15:59] You: Harleen, would you like to see a more direct way to access Landmarks? [15:59] You: besides going into inventory? [15:59] Harleen Gretzky: sure [15:59] You: ok great, well folks this has been very informative [15:59] Squirrel Wood: ^^ [15:59] You: Stephany and I have another meeting to run to [15:59] Jacek Antonelli: :) [15:59] You: but I'd like to continue this discussion next week [15:59] Stephany Linden: yes please! [15:59] McCabe Maxsted: always enjoy these types of discussions :) [15:59] Jacek Antonelli: Hehe. Scurry scurry, little Lindens. :D [15:59] McCabe Maxsted: I'll try to make it [15:59] Squirrel Wood: meetings... [15:59] You: I think there's a lot more things to explore here [16:00] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, was a very interesting discussion [16:00] Stephany Linden: "back to grid house" [16:00] Stephany Linden: thank you so muhc [16:00] You: thanks so much for sharing! [16:00] aliceinwire Bleac: bye bye [16:00] Harleen Gretzky: tc Benjamin, Malbers and Stephany [16:00] Stephany Linden: see you all next week [16:00] Jacek Antonelli: Take care! [16:00] aliceinwire Bleac: thanks you [16:00] You: see you all next week!