User:Esbee Linden/Office Hours/2010-09-01

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List of Attendees


[08:01] Esbee Linden: Hi everybody!
[08:01] Moon Metty: we must be dealing with an outrage
[08:01] Ardy Lay: Hi Esbee
[08:01] Kopilo Hallard: greetings
[08:01] Moon Metty: hi Esbee :)
[08:01] Latif Khalifa: hey Esbee
[08:02] Esbee Linden: How's everyone doing?
[08:02] Medhue Simoni: hey
[08:02] Kopilo Hallard: chaotically good
[08:02] 3 Person SandPile: Hi Esbee Linden! Say /1a to adjust your position. Touch me to change.
[08:02] Latif Khalifa: lol
[08:02] Kopilo Hallard: :)
[08:02] Moon Metty: so so, but i'll survive
[08:02] Ardy Lay: I found a way to misues your deck chair.
[08:02] Ardy Lay: misuse
[08:02] Esbee Linden: Nice :)
[08:03] Moon Metty: oh there you are
[08:03] Kopilo Hallard: just checking, will this OH be in text?
[08:03] Esbee Linden: So - yesterday the Snowstorm team started a new sprint. If anyone's interested, the Sprint Backlog can be found, here:
[08:04] Esbee Linden: But for today, what I really wanted to talk about was Viewer ideas in general.
[08:04] Esbee Linden: We have a few of our devs working on creating detachable side bar tabs.
[08:04] WolfPup Lowenhar: i c a q and tufo comeing this way
[08:04] s Google Translator: icaq and tuff comeing this way
[08:04] Esbee Linden: But I'm interested in what you'd like to see us do with Viewer 2 next? Are there bugs that have been driving you crazy for ages? UI tweaks you'd like to see?
[08:05] Moon Metty: Q!
[08:05] Medhue Simoni: will the sidebar tab come to the front when you click them?
[08:05] Esbee Linden: Hi Q. Welcome!
[08:05] Kopilo Hallard: with viewer 2 or the viewer in general?
[08:05] Jonathan Yap: /me votes for llTextBox, which appears to already be on the list
[08:05] WolfPup Lowenhar: sorry bout that killed my translator
[08:05] Esbee Linden: Good to see you virtually again :)
[08:05] Latif Khalifa: Hm Esbee, I think most would like to see more than "tweaks" in he UI
[08:05] Moon Metty: hi Q, good to see you back
[08:05] Q Linden: Hi,, all!
[08:05] Jonathan Yap: Welcome Q
[08:05] Kopilo Hallard: hey q :D
[08:05] Latif Khalifa: Hey Q, welcome back :)
[08:05] Q Linden: I'm sorta back
[08:05] WolfPup Lowenhar: o/ Q glad to see you doing better!
[08:05] Esbee Linden: Latif - can you give me an example?
[08:05] Kopilo Hallard: welcome to the land of the virtually living?
[08:06] Q Linden: still working from home, but back sonn
[08:06] Q Linden: soon
[08:06] Ardy Lay: Can we make group IM toasts optional? I find them rather distracting.
[08:06] Latif Khalifa: Esbee, there are a number of problems with chat for instance. I wrote a short description about some of the most common
[08:06] Latif Khalifa: just a sec, let me dig it up
[08:07] Esbee Linden: Ardy - That's a good suggestion. We probably need to think about adding a preference for that. Or maybe just considering the way we automatically opt users into group chat.
[08:07] Latif Khalifa:
[08:07] Jonathan Yap: Getting Snow-472 to work would help a lot of people with imbedded graphics chips -- my frame rate shoots way up because of that patch
[08:07] Ardy Lay: I want to still get the group chat session but in history only.
[08:07] Medhue Simoni: group chats are extremely annoying
[08:07] Esbee Linden: /me opens up Latif's viewer chat pdf
[08:07] Medhue Simoni: can be
[08:07] Ardy Lay: Let the badge counter update but don't slap me with toast. :-)
[08:08] Kopilo Hallard: having to open a seperate window by clicking the (i) next to someones name under the speakers list (for voice) seems awkward
[08:08] Jonathan Yap: What if you put the toast lifetime to 0?
[08:08] Kopilo Hallard: I mean having to open a seperate window to adjust their volume
[08:08] Esbee Linden: Kolipo, you can also just do it from an inspector, you don't have to open the speakers list.
[08:09] Kopilo Hallard: inspector?
[08:09] Esbee Linden: Just mouseover a person in the chat or inworld and click the little tooltip that pops open.
[08:09] Esbee Linden: There's a volume aduster there.
[08:09] Jonathan Yap: *•.¸('*•.¸ ♥ ¸.•*´)¸
[08:09] Jonathan Yap: .•*♥`• AWESOME °• * ♥.
[08:09] Jonathan Yap: ¸.•*(¸.•*´ ♥ `*•.¸)`*•.¸
[08:09] Esbee Linden: Latif - This is a great proposal.
[08:09] Jonathan Yap: Sorry, trying to squish a bug on my kbd
[08:09] Medhue Simoni: those were not thought out well
[08:10] Ardy Lay: The inspectors tend to close when I am trying to keep volume adjusted as people speak with very uneven levels.
[08:10] Kopilo Hallard: that is difficult if people are moving around lots and chat is constantly streaming
[08:10] Esbee Linden: Don't forget, you can access inspectors anywhere - I find them most helpful in the Nearby Chat list in the People panel.
[08:10] Esbee Linden: Latif - Let's talk about chat focus for a minute.
[08:11] Latif Khalifa: yes, well it's pretty simple, i want an option for chat focus to be kept in the input line like it was in 1.xx
[08:11] Latif Khalifa: i don't care about WASD motion
[08:11] Esbee Linden: Do you think other users care about WASD control?
[08:11] Medhue Simoni: i agree
[08:11] Q Linden: /me cares
[08:11] Kopilo Hallard: WASD can be reassigned
[08:11] Medhue Simoni: only a true gamer would
[08:12] Nyx Linden: /me cares
[08:12] Latif Khalifa: very few care, but that's what I said about having an option to have 1.23 behaviour
[08:12] Q Linden: at least before my left side went wonky
[08:12] Medhue Simoni: it should be an options in the menus
[08:12] Kopilo Hallard: have it optional
[08:12] Moon Metty: ChatbarStealsFocus is broken in viewer2
[08:12] Moon Metty: vwr-17011
[08:12] Esbee Linden: So this is an interesting point to bring up and one I deal with everyday.
[08:12] Ardy Lay: I use WASD to move around but do understand the issue. V1.x was configurable to suit different needs.
[08:12] Moon Metty: vwr-17011
[08:12] Bring back the option to keep focus on the chat bar!
[08:12] Medhue Simoni: everytime i talk to a customer i jump
[08:12] Esbee Linden: We'll likely see a 50/50 split between people who'll say they need WASD control versus those who don't care.
[08:13] Latif Khalifa: nobody says kill WASD, but give us the option to kill it
[08:13] Techwolf Lupindo: gamers don't chat. Thats why they prefer the letter keys for movenment. They don't need to type anything.
[08:13] Medhue Simoni: and it been months and i'm not use to hitting enter yet
[08:13] Esbee Linden: We can add more preferences, but they definitely feel a bit overloaded already.
[08:13] WolfPup Lowenhar: it would be nice if there was an option to disable hveing to hit enter to be able to type in local
[08:13] Q Linden: so i have a problem with too many options
[08:13] Moon Metty: Esbee, for me it's chatbarfocus or no viewer2
[08:13] Medhue Simoni: newbie almost never use wasd
[08:13] Kopilo Hallard: ohh the thing that annoys me is how localchat isn't part of the communications/ims tab but not sure if that is just because I haven't configured it right
[08:13] Latif Khalifa: Esbee, this is one of the top 5 reasons people don't want to use viewer2, so your pick, reject the users or add the preference :)
[08:14] Esbee Linden: Yeah. We definitely need to fix the "hit enter to return focus to chatbar" bug. That's a good one.
[08:14] Kopilo Hallard: yeah
[08:14] Q Linden: i think options are bad for users and bad for code quality
[08:14] Moon Metty: hit enter to return is different
[08:14] Mojito Sorbet: I really hate jumping in the air when I sart to type
[08:14] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[08:14] Esbee Linden: The more options we add, the more complicated a code base we maintain - and the more confusing preferences will get.
[08:14] Latif Khalifa: Q, configurable UI is bad?
[08:14] WolfPup Lowenhar: or going in to mouse lock
[08:14] Jonathan Yap: Hopefully Q was making a joke
[08:14] Medhue Simoni: lol
[08:14] Mojito Sorbet: That is why the UI has to be completely seperable form the rendering part of the viewer.
[08:15] Techwolf Lupindo: Only if the options are done is spaggitti code format.
[08:15] Mojito Sorbet: Not so you can have a multimode UI, but so you can have multiple ones to plug in
[08:15] Q Linden: latif, yes - pluggable ui, with separate code paths is good
[08:15] Esbee Linden: A pluggable UI would be awesome.
[08:15] Kopilo Hallard: /me drools a little
[08:15] Mojito Sorbet: For people who chat a lot, they want alphabetic keys to ONLY do chat - never anything else
[08:15] Q Linden: but options with ui to control them fail because of test complexity
[08:15] Kopilo Hallard: I have kind of been messing with that through using the log files and other files used by the viewer
[08:16] Latif Khalifa: Well I thought you wanted to bring more people into using Viewer 2. Obviously you have other concerns
[08:16] Q Linden: and code and ui complexity
[08:16] Mojito Sorbet: The test system can drive thew API dircetly, independent of key mappings
[08:16] Mojito Sorbet: I thought you wanted that
[08:16] Q Linden: latif, "make everything optional" is a copout
[08:16] Medhue Simoni: personally, i don't touch my keyboard unless i want to chat
[08:16] Q Linden: you can't sustain that
[08:16] Moon Metty: i don't understand the reluctance to fix chatbar focus
[08:16] Latif Khalifa: Q so is forcing everyone to use what you think is best
[08:17] Latif Khalifa: and the numbers show that you got it wrong
[08:17] Q Linden: that's not what i said, is it?
[08:17] Esbee Linden: I think that's taking it a little too far.
[08:17] Kopilo Hallard: chillax peoples
[08:17] Q Linden: :)
[08:17] Esbee Linden: We can't have an option for configuring every last feature and function in the Viewer.
[08:17] Latif Khalifa: well you ask what are the biggest hindranes to use viewer2
[08:17] Moon Metty: right Latif
[08:17] Marigold Devin: wow that got almost as heated as sometimes it does on the forums !
[08:17] Oz Linden: We're not reluctant to fix focus - figuring it out is on this sprint
[08:17] Latif Khalifa: chat focus and keeping WASD is for many
[08:17] Mojito Sorbet: No, but you can allow for multiple UI front-ends
[08:17] Ardy Lay: We are not asking for 5,486 options. We are asking for maybe 2 here.
[08:18] Moon Metty: WASD is an alien concept for me
[08:18] Techwolf Lupindo: Esbee, all the emerald users have a differet say in that. re:can't have option for everything.
[08:18] Oz Linden: it's just not at all obvious what solution would make everyone happy, or even that a finite set of options could do so
[08:18] Kopilo Hallard: there is another option...
[08:18] Marigold Devin: WASD is an alien concept to me also
[08:18] Medhue Simoni: i was a gamer but i would never use it in SL
[08:18] Kopilo Hallard: which makes it slightly more configurable by the user
[08:18] Kopilo Hallard: which is to change the chat bar focus
[08:18] Latif Khalifa: to most SL users who are not hard core gamers WASD is an alien concept
[08:18] Esbee Linden: Well, that's not really true. Chat focus is one thing. We just talked about an option for control of group chat toasts. :) I bet if I switch the subject to the Navigation Bar or Teleport History - there are a lot more options we'd all ask for. :)
[08:18] Mojito Sorbet: Use Dzonatas' separable UI design.
[08:18] WolfPup Lowenhar: Marigold have you ever played a mudd or mush?
[08:19] Latif Khalifa: most devs on the other hand are gamers, so there is a disconnect there
[08:19] Kopilo Hallard: even gamers use the arrow keus
[08:19] Kopilo Hallard: <- gamer
[08:19] Mojito Sorbet: Even back when I did intensive swordplay RP, I never used WASD
[08:19] Esbee Linden: It's also laptop users - I am on a laptop most of the time and so it's faster for me to use arrow keys to control my avatar.
[08:19] Marigold Devin: I'm not a gamer.
[08:19] Marigold Devin: Wolfpup
[08:19] Boroondas Gupte: why is the a rifle on the floor?
[08:19] Boroondas Gupte: *there
[08:20] Esbee Linden: Boroondas - Good question :)
[08:20] Techwolf Lupindo: arrow keys are better due to one can't "shift" there fingers off by one key and mess up there movments.
[08:20] Esbee Linden: I was afraid to ask :)
[08:20] Marigold Devin: I guess I "play" my SL as a typist - that is to say thats how I use my keyboard
[08:20] Q Linden: anyway, i get the desire - i'm pushing for us to really deeply consider whether ther miight be an option-free solution
[08:20] Latif Khalifa: Esbee, most people I know use the arrow keys
[08:20] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, you can "feel" the arrow keys (on most keyboards)
[08:20] Marigold Devin: Arrow keys are good. for me.
[08:20] Medhue Simoni: the bottom line is SL is a social world, games are not
[08:20] Kopilo Hallard: option free solution might be to force it back to how it was
[08:20] WolfPup Lowenhar: older keyboard tit not have arrow keys so you had to incoperate some form of move ment keyd
[08:20] Ardy Lay: I use WASD and "mouse steer" my avatar.
[08:20] Kopilo Hallard: and those who want to use WSAD could config their keyboard bindings to use ctrl+wsad?
[08:21] Q Linden: for example, if Enter put focus into chat, could that be an answer?
[08:21] Techwolf Lupindo: I use the 3D spacenav joystick to move around.
[08:21] Moon Metty: no Q
[08:21] Latif Khalifa: Q, no
[08:21] Moon Metty: it's backwards
[08:21] Mojito Sorbet: Sorry, that is a step back to 1.23, and you ar enot allowed to do that. Oz sez so
[08:21] Moon Metty: each time we click in-world we lose focus
[08:21] Latif Khalifa: that's how it works now, and people jump around instead of chatting and go back to 1.23
[08:21] Kopilo Hallard: LOL
[08:21] WolfPup Lowenhar: Q enter already dose that
[08:21] Moon Metty: because ChatbarStealsFocus is broken
[08:21] Honour McMillan: omg it does - thanks Wolf :)
[08:21] Q Linden: oh, heh
[08:22] Q Linden: i didn't know that :)
[08:22] Latif Khalifa: having to hit enter to chat is how it works, and it's still one of the biggest complaints about focus
[08:22] Latif Khalifa: so that's not a solution
[08:22] Techwolf Lupindo: I'me just waiting for someone to lose it, pick up the gun and start at it.
[08:22] Mojito Sorbet: People who do not use Second Life every day should not be designing it's UI, methinks
[08:22] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
[08:22] WolfPup Lowenhar: q click in world and then try to type some thing
[08:22] Esbee Linden: That's a bug that's been open for a while, I've been linking some of those (there are dupes) to get on the Snowstorm Team backlog
[08:22] Aimee Linden: conversely Enter doesn't give the chatbar focus if the chat history focus, which does seem a bit backwards
[08:23] Q Linden: mojito, just because i don't know everything doesn't mean i don't ues it
[08:23] Aimee Linden: *has focus
[08:23] Kopilo Hallard: hey don't go looking at me just because I'm dressed for that stort of thing
[08:23] Boroondas Gupte: In general, Viewer 2 moved away from single-(letter)-key commands. E.g. [B] for building was moved to [Ctrl]+[B]. WASD navigation goes the other way.
[08:23] Mojito Sorbet: Like the people in Search development, who clearly never go shopping
[08:23] Honour McMillan: pffft I didn't know either and I'm in here everyday
[08:23] Cummere Mayo: sorry for being late. sl didnt want to let me on this morning
[08:23] Esbee Linden: I use SL every day for a variety of reasons.
[08:23] Esbee Linden: I build, script, shop, explore - every day. :)
[08:23] Mojito Sorbet: You use it for voice chat in meetings?
[08:23] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[08:24] Oz Linden: I refuse to be taken out of context (again). I've never said that no part of the v1 UI can be brought back - what I've said is that bringing it all back wholesale isn't up for discussion. But I agree with Q - let's look for a chat/keyboard/focus solution that meets the needs of as many people as possible with as few options as possible.
[08:24] WolfPup Lowenhar: /me hosts events everday as well as tries do building as well as dev work
[08:24] Q Linden: mojito, let's keep the personal stuff out of it
[08:24] Marigold Devin: Yes, its got to all be about compromise. V2 just seemed like too much all at once.
[08:24] Marigold Devin: to me
[08:24] Latif Khalifa: Esbee, what is the number of online time spent with people who reject the new UI, 70%? Radical design changes are needed to turn that around
[08:24] Oz Linden: Don't start on Search... not a Snowstorm issue
[08:25] Kopilo Hallard: rejecting one design doesn't mean the previous was better
[08:25] Esbee Linden: So let's not rat hole on chat focus for now. Let me take your feedback here back to the team and we'll throw out some ideas for chat focus. Maybe a short blog post or email to opensource-dev.
[08:25] Moon Metty: i can imagine WASD users aren't entirely happy either , because of VWR-20417
[08:25] CloseChatOnReturn fails when chatbar is empty
[08:25] Latif Khalifa: if there is so much resistance of bringing back the lost functionality I'm afraid the future does not bode well
[08:25] Latif Khalifa: Kopilo, yes it does
[08:26] Medhue Simoni: Why don't we take polls on this stuff
[08:26] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[08:26] Q Linden: not "so much" - but understand there are many issues
[08:26] Oz Linden: Who are we going to poll? There are hundreds of thousands of SL users, most of whom won't respond, and there are many different kinds of users
[08:27] Medhue Simoni: we do have a bog
[08:27] Latif Khalifa: Oz, look up in the usage statistics, that should be poll enough for you
[08:27] Marigold Devin: You don't need everyone to respond to a poll, just a cross section
[08:27] Medhue Simoni: and it has poll options
[08:27] Esbee Linden: So this is just my second office hour, but I'm curious about how you guys would like to get involved in the shaping of the Product Backlog. We can use these meetings to discuss specific user stories on the team backlog or we could talk about new ideas. (Rather than arguing with each other for an hour a week) :)
[08:27] Honour McMillan: :)
[08:27] Kopilo Hallard: /me puts his heads in his hands and mumbles about accessibility
[08:27] Marigold Devin: And reading the comments on the SL forums and collating that (although that would be time consuming and undoubtedly very tedious *laughs*
[08:27] Kopilo Hallard: head*
[08:27] Techwolf Lupindo: I understand the "toast" feature was borrowed from facebook. Facebook no longer uses that. I wonder if there is a doc somewhere explaining why facebook dropped it. I might have usefull info for future UI disgn here.
[08:28] Oz Linden: besides, polls will only tell you what people think of existing solutions (which we already know need fixing), not new ones they have not been able to try yet
[08:28] Moon Metty: i hope our feedback isn't limited to in-world meetings
[08:28] Techwolf Lupindo: s/I/It/
[08:28] Oz Linden: the opensource-dev list is open, Moon
[08:28] Latif Khalifa: Oz, again you and infinite new posibilities, forgetting that the previous UI had 23 itertations of fine tuning
[08:28] Esbee Linden: Actually, "toasts" are more akin to notifications from other messaging apps - like Growl.
[08:28] Oz Linden: posts there are very welcome
[08:28] Moon Metty: i see, Oz
[08:28] Marigold Devin: Lightbulb moments :-))
[08:29] Moon Metty: i sometimes keep an eye on that list, but it's a lot of reading
[08:29] Latif Khalifa: Esbee, except SL is a world where communiations are just a part of it
[08:29] Moon Metty: i normally work off the jira
[08:29] Marigold Devin: I think if there are any lightbulb moments, Moon, just shove a notecard the way of Esbee or Oz maybe
[08:29] Kopilo Hallard: Growl, never heard of that app
[08:29] Q Linden: latif, you're not really saying 1.23 was the ultimate ui, are you?
[08:29] Boroondas Gupte: isn't Growl a framework?
[08:29] Esbee Linden: Moon - You can send us email directly, drop notecards on us, or email the opensource-dev list.
[08:29] Moon Metty: Marigold, i don't want to give personal advice :)
[08:29] Esbee Linden: I'm also spending a good chunk of my days in Jira triaging, so there are lots of ways to provide feedback and ideas.
[08:30] Cummere Mayo: not the ultimate, but.... 2.x ui is like the unlitmate example of what not to do...
[08:30] Techwolf Lupindo: linux has libnotify. But I think growl is close sourced for mac and windows.
[08:30] Latif Khalifa: Q, I am saying it was orders of magnitute more usable than v2. It was ugly, but nothing a new theme couldn't freshen up
[08:30] Moon Metty: i want something public
[08:30] TriloByte Zanzibar: I thought toasts were more like a growl message too, but I believe fb dropped their notifications because of tech issues involved with the multitude of browsers/versions they deliver across
[08:30] Oz Linden: Growl is a notification system that multiple apps can use
[08:30] Marigold Devin: oh, ok Moon, I get it
[08:30] Esbee Linden: Growl is a notification framework that applications can tie into to provide alerts about actions.
[08:30] Medhue Simoni: yes public is better
[08:30] Latif Khalifa: Q, I also think you vastly underestimate how broken v2 ui is
[08:30] Oz Linden: Ok Latif - we get that you liked it better, and we want to make V2 better than it is. there are more options that just "revert"
[08:30] Q Linden: i looked into using growl but it doesnt do interactive notifications
[08:30] Kopilo Hallard: can we shift onto v3?
[08:30] TriloByte Zanzibar: I disagree, at this point I prefer the v2 UI to v1x
[08:30] Kopilo Hallard: /me smiles
[08:31] Medhue Simoni: I use v2 exclusively
[08:31] Latif Khalifa: Oz, i reject your notion of "infinite new possibilities" in the face of a working vs. non working ui
[08:31] Kopilo Hallard: I use both
[08:31] Honour McMillan: I primarily use v2
[08:31] Oz Linden: ok.. then we just disagree I guess
[08:31] Kopilo Hallard: they are too different for me to really compare :p
[08:31] Latif Khalifa: Oz, yes we do
[08:32] Cummere Mayo: i sue both. i like some features in 2.x better, but the ungodly ui makes everything ten times harder and so many more clicks
[08:32] Mojito Sorbet: The way forward is the decoupled user interface. Let people develop new ones without having to dig into the viewer innards/
[08:32] Medhue Simoni: no transparent windows are unbearable
[08:32] Kopilo Hallard: Med: you can change that
[08:32] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, that's a 2 year project, and by then the SL user concurrency will be approching 0
[08:32] Moon Metty: i only use viewer2 to hunt bugs, for common use i log in with 1.23.5
[08:32] Medhue Simoni: it is not about me
[08:33] Kopilo Hallard: I think the beta version has an option for transparent windows
[08:33] Medhue Simoni: this is why you need polls
[08:33] TriloByte Zanzibar: i could have sworn preferences -> advanced tab had a slider for transparency
[08:34] WolfPup Lowenhar: /me uses some image tweaks to have transparent floaters
[08:34] Honour McMillan: back to Esbee's question - I like the idea of reviewing the backlog, I think it's possible we'll be able to expand/refine the user stories and maybe assist with prioritizing - assuming conversations remain on track :)
[08:34] Cummere Mayo: I agree. polls would really help allot especially idf the users started seeing you pay attention to them
[08:34] Kopilo Hallard: Trilo pretty sure it is there
[08:34] Latif Khalifa: nah, LL does not believe in JIra votes or polls... apparently they think they know better than the people who actually use the product
[08:34] Esbee Linden: Honour - Thanks :) I agree.
[08:34] Boroondas Gupte: did Q leave? can't see him anymore
[08:34] Aimee Linden: he got logged out for some reason
[08:34] Kopilo Hallard: I dislike polls because of inaccuracies, time and cost
[08:34] Honour McMillan: I think Q went to bury the dead horse :)
[08:35] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[08:35] Marigold Devin: LOL
[08:35] Boroondas Gupte: :-P
[08:35] Cummere Mayo: aimee, SL now boots the lindens as well as the users? I like that new feature *runs*
[08:35] Medhue Simoni: inaccuracy is due to bad wording of polls
[08:35] Marigold Devin: Q went for a bar of chocolate. Blood sugar was running low I think.
[08:35] Latif Khalifa: seems that the mention of v1.23 UI brings high blood pressure to most lindens
[08:36] Kopilo Hallard: Med: inaccuracy also occurs through poor implemetentation of polls in general
[08:36] Medhue Simoni: I'd rather we not talk about 1.23 either
[08:36] Oz Linden: Q got logged out
[08:36] Aimee Linden: Cummere: getting booted is all part of walking in the residents shoes
[08:36] Esbee Linden: So. I'm going to state it one more time....
[08:36] Esbee Linden: We're not going back to the 1.23 UI.
[08:36] Marigold Devin: ok, so lets assume V2 is here to stay and go from there.
[08:37] Honour McMillan: please
[08:37] Esbee Linden: We will include more UI customization. And we're working on that right now.
[08:37] Latif Khalifa: Well I think that if some elements worked good in 1.23, and I think that the local chat is one of those elements, it can be a valid suggestion
[08:37] Oz Linden: Acknowledging that it needs improvement
[08:37] Esbee Linden: As I mentioned at the beginning of this meeting, we have a few devs working on detachable sidebar panels right now. This will allow you to turn a sidebar tab into a floater.
[08:37] Marigold Devin: I know I've met newbies who have struggled with V2 sometimes, but some take to it like a duck to water.
[08:37] Latif Khalifa: Esbee, that's a nice talking point. But when we bring an actual change like chat focus, you say "customization bad"
[08:37] Esbee Linden: You'll be able to test that out in a development Viewer pretty soon.
[08:37] TriloByte Zanzibar: yes, I'm looking forward to that one
[08:37] Moon Metty: what i see that some of the fixes in viewer2 are not an improvement , but a regression
[08:37] Oz Linden: Thank you for your input Latif... we hear you... you don't need to monopolize chat by repeating it
[08:37] Medhue Simoni: Thanks god
[08:37] Kopilo Hallard: Esbee: I was thinking if all the shortcuts were made bindable in the keys.ini then for example my little java app can be used as a MOAP to edit it
[08:38] Ardy Lay: Please explain how you can be anti-options and pro-customization?
[08:38] Cummere Mayo: esbee, I think you need someone to hunt trhough jiras and forums and make sure key bugs and feature requests for stated projects ( like the displaynames, mesh issues, and grid merger) dont get overlooked, especially since it doesnt seem like they are as high on the priority list for some of the teams responsible for fixing/enabling them as other issues right now
[08:38] Moon Metty: to really improve the UI we need 2-way feedback
[08:38] Honour McMillan: well if we were discussing the backlog we could make sure those important jira's were reflected in use cases - no?
[08:38] Latif Khalifa: Oz, I also hear you repeating stuff like "we want customizable UI", and "we don't want to add options", you might want to clarify that to avoid the repetition
[08:38] Esbee Linden: Ardy - All I'm saying is that we can't provide an option for every last feature and functional item in the Viewer. There is a balance.
[08:38] Cummere Mayo: I would be willing to take on some of that even if i can get someone LL side to cordinate with
[08:39] TriloByte Zanzibar: is there an updated backlog document, or is #gid=5 still valid?
[08:39] Esbee Linden: I also believe Q is right when he says, there are sometimes better solutions. We want to find those.
[08:39] Moon Metty: and an office hour where the chat scrolls too fast to read is hardly a place to give feedback
[08:39] Esbee Linden: TriloByte - That is our Team Product Backlog - so you have the right one.
[08:39] Cummere Mayo: esbee: then why dont you poll the users about what they want? Ui wise, policy wise, and feature wise?
[08:39] Medhue Simoni: Yes, i think the forums are better
[08:40] TriloByte Zanzibar: excellent, thanks esbee
[08:40] Esbee Linden: np
[08:40] Esbee Linden: Cummere - Polls will only be used by a small fraction of users.
[08:40] Q Linden: polls dont work
[08:40] Medhue Simoni: alot more than are here
[08:40] Esbee Linden: We can certainly use polls to inform decisions, but there are other considerations.
[08:40] Cummere Mayo: only because you have a history of ignoring them
[08:40] Latif Khalifa: I would really like to hear how can you squere "customizable ui" with "no new options"
[08:40] Honour McMillan: polls are a cumbersome/time lengthening/ineffectual way to design anything
[08:41] Oz Linden: No, Cummere... because we get too many conflicting answers
[08:41] Marigold Devin: All I know is that as people always tend to complain rather than compliment, you could pick up so much just from what people complain about on the SL forums on V2. But it is a lot of the same issues coming up time and time again of course.
[08:41] Honour McMillan: the same people will respond who come to meetings and contribute to Jira's and the dev list
[08:41] Cummere Mayo: no honour they are not. if done corectly they keep you from wasting thousands of horus and millions of dollars
[08:41] Boroondas Gupte: If polls don't work, what does? Feedback before stuff is set into stone is important.
[08:41] Esbee Linden: Latif - I'm going to go over it again and again. We can't have options for every feature and functional item in the Viewer. But we can allow some customization where it makes sense to do so.
[08:41] Oz Linden: Besides, it's not useful to beat us up about ignoring you when there are 8 Lindens here to listen to what you have to say
[08:42] Esbee Linden: Boroondas - We have daily development builds of Viewer 2 now as part of Project Snowstorm.
[08:42] Cummere Mayo: oz hearing what we have to say and listening are two differant things
[08:42] Esbee Linden: You can grab a Development Viewer build and give us feedback anyyime.
[08:42] Jei Desoto: Like when people cheat polls by voting multiple times per person. Everyone knows there are ways to cheat polls.
[08:42] Esbee Linden: anytime, even
[08:42] Medhue Simoni: lets talk about v2
[08:42] Boroondas Gupte: Esbee, development builds only show implemented stuff. How can the userbase influence the design stage?
[08:42] Q Linden: people are notoriously bad at guessing what a feature will be like until they can actually use it
[08:42] Marigold Devin: Yes, Medhue - best bits, worst bits, summarised briefly.
[08:43] Moon Metty: Boroondas +1
[08:43] Esbee Linden: Boroondas - I'd like to use this meeting to share design ideas and gather feedback. I'm still trying to sort out our process here.
[08:43] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, now that people have been able to see Display Names in action on the beta grid, they hate it even more than when it was proposed.
[08:43] Esbee Linden: Mojito - This team doesn't do any work on Display Names. So I'd advise providing feedback on their blog post.
[08:44] Mojito Sorbet: Lots of people have provided feedback there - it was ignored.
[08:44] Q Linden: please don't speak in generalities. not eveyone feels the same
[08:44] Esbee Linden: Boroondas - For example, Rhett (from UX) and I have been sketching ideas for UI improvements.
[08:44] Moon Metty: VWR-17001 is an example of a fix gone wrong
[08:44] Leave LOCATION info on the viewer header when hiding the "navigation" bar
[08:44] Marigold Devin: It probably wasn't ignored, just being collated in the backstage area.
[08:44] Medhue Simoni: can we talk more about the sidebar
[08:44] Cummere Mayo: last night it was locked esbee
[08:44] Esbee Linden: I'd love to use this meeting to share a sketch like that and talk about what you like/dont' like about it.
[08:44] Esbee Linden: Cummere - I wasn't aware it was locked. Sorry.
[08:45] TriloByte Zanzibar: silly question regarding actual viewer development... how does the planar texture alignment work in 2.1.2?
[08:45] Boroondas Gupte: Esbee, can we (the users) contribute sketches, too?
[08:45] Esbee Linden: Boroondas - Absolutely! I would love that!
[08:45] Boroondas Gupte: Cool
[08:45] Esbee Linden: /me walks around with a sketchbook all the time - so I'll never turn down anyone else throwing sketches at me
[08:46] Q Linden: boroondas - just be willing to accept feeddback please!
[08:46] Kopilo Hallard: /me looks confused
[08:46] Medhue Simoni: What about user Icons, we don't need little pic of people we can't see
[08:46] Boroondas Gupte: Q, of course
[08:46] Kopilo Hallard: do you want a sketch on some of my ideas for the viewer?
[08:46] Kopilo Hallard: uml?
[08:46] Kopilo Hallard: /me chuckles
[08:46] Cummere Mayo: +1 medhue
[08:46] Latif Khalifa: the display names is an example how feedback is done generaly, feature is fully developed and even deployed on the servers, before any feedback is gathered, so it's just for fun that it is asked. a much better way in my opinion would be to ask the question in advance: "we have a problem that people go wtf is this when asked to pick a last name during the signup, how do you think we should solve this", and then do a summary from the feedback
[08:47] Moon Metty: yes Latif
[08:47] Esbee Linden: Medue - can you elaborate on the user icons?
[08:47] Kopilo Hallard: med: you can enable plaintext chat in the preferences
[08:47] Medhue Simoni: my pc is downloading pictures I have no use for
[08:47] Oz Linden: Medhue - you can turn those off
[08:47] Oz Linden: select "plain text chat"
[08:47] Medhue Simoni: oh good
[08:47] Cummere Mayo: you can but then the user names dont pop out
[08:48] Medhue Simoni: nope i'm talking in the sidebar
[08:48] Cummere Mayo: an option to keep the chat seperate by the bars without the icons would be nice
[08:48] Latif Khalifa: well then you have to keep the chat history open at all times which obscures the world view
[08:48] Medhue Simoni: or in the bar at the bottom
[08:48] Cummere Mayo: in the sidebar we dont need them
[08:48] Kopilo Hallard: so instead of using 2lines mimimum, chat uses one line minimum...
[08:48] Aimee Linden: you can turn the off in the sidebar too
[08:48] Cummere Mayo: how aimee?
[08:49] Aimee Linden: using the "gear menu" at the bottom of the people sidebar
[08:49] Kopilo Hallard: oh yeah
[08:49] Jonathan Yap: Here is an idea, be able to regulate how fast chat goes by, so you have a chance to read it at the cost of some delay if there is a lot going by at once.
[08:49] Q Linden: if you want bars, why do you care if ther are icons?
[08:49] Cummere Mayo: /me wonders why isnt any of this documented?
[08:49] Kopilo Hallard: sidebar: inconsitant menu placement = bad
[08:50] Cummere Mayo: also is there a way to turn off the annoying boxes that pop up along the side, even when an im or group chat window is active?
[08:50] Boroondas Gupte: the gear menu has a major discoverability issue
[08:50] TriloByte Zanzibar: I believe so, they're called toasts... there are a number of debug settings that allow you to change their behavior
[08:50] WolfPup Lowenhar: there is a tost tweek that i use but it would be nice to have that as a setting
[08:50] Kopilo Hallard: /me wonders why none of the menus can be accessed with keyboard shortcuts...
[08:50] Oz Linden: Boroondas ... yes, it does (as confirmed by LL usability testing)
[08:50] Esbee Linden: Agreed. Our UX team has been working on some new design for the sidebar items.
[08:50] Medhue Simoni: no user icons should be default tho
[08:51] TriloByte Zanzibar: I think that's on the backlog, kopilo
[08:51] Q Linden: why?
[08:51] Esbee Linden: Rhett (from UX) and I are meeting early next week to review that stuff so I can share it with you.
[08:51] Latif Khalifa: Oz, usuabilty testing proved to be a perfect tool I see
[08:51] Oz Linden: Kopilo - that's on our list (and partly fixed in the Development viewers)
[08:51] Q Linden: what's wrong with icons?
[08:51] Kopilo Hallard: YAY
[08:51] Jei Desoto: Extra icons in chat can seem cluttered to new uesers used to other chat interfaces.
[08:51] Kopilo Hallard: only taken 3 years xD
[08:51] Medhue Simoni: my pc is doing stuff you don't need
[08:51] Cummere Mayo: they are too small and straing the eyes if you do like them, and jsut annnoying if you dont.
[08:51] Moon Metty: to me the icons are useless
[08:51] Medhue Simoni: we need to see the world not icon
[08:51] Mojito Sorbet: And use up space
[08:52] TriloByte Zanzibar: i like the icons
[08:52] Boroondas Gupte: I like them, too
[08:52] Medhue Simoni: i want the world to rez fast not my icons
[08:52] Honour McMillan: I've never really noticed them to be honest - thought it was a nice touch
[08:52] WolfPup Lowenhar: /me keeps his chat set to plain text
[08:52] Jonathan Yap: The only use I have for those icons is when several people are using the same display name, then you have a way of knowing who typed what
[08:52] Cummere Mayo: I kinda like them too, but they are too small for me to see them really
[08:52] Q Linden: by their current placement, you'd gain nothing by eliminating them
[08:52] Boroondas Gupte: I'd even like to have icons in the compact chat view.
[08:52] Boroondas Gupte: (optional of course)
[08:52] Cummere Mayo: if i try i get headaches
[08:52] Medhue Simoni: if you have a slow net, then it matters
[08:53] Cummere Mayo: as far as the sidebar in general
[08:53] TriloByte Zanzibar: so... turn them off?
[08:53] Honour McMillan: I like them for the group chat icons - helps me remember which to click :)
[08:53] Cummere Mayo: I like the layout in sg 2.0 better then any of the other 2.x sidebar versions
[08:53] Jei Desoto: They're not a bad thing in my opinion. It can show you if a human or object is sayin' somethin'... Maybe a little toggle for them at the chat box top could suffice... just a small idea,
[08:53] TriloByte Zanzibar: i think you can switch it back to the text-based stuff and disable icons in most (if not all) places
[08:53] Esbee Linden: Yes.
[08:53] Q Linden: i'd like to see proof that turning them off makes a measurable difference, but we're nitpicicking. some people like pictures
[08:54] Esbee Linden: So we have just a few minutes left. A couple of things I want to cover before we wrap up for today.
[08:54] Cummere Mayo: slightly more customability and its -slightly- easier to find some fo the menues, and much easier to do some tasks
[08:54] Esbee Linden: 1) I'm really excited about this office hour and the chance to work with you on Viewer 2. :)
[08:54] Moon Metty: :
[08:54] Moon Metty: :)
[08:54] Esbee Linden: 2) But we have to make these discussions productive. So fighting about the past won't get us anywhere.
[08:55] Honour McMillan: I agree
[08:55] Esbee Linden: So I'd like to recommend a few things:
[08:55] Moon Metty: like i said, office hours are not for detailed feedback
[08:55] Boroondas Gupte: +Moon
[08:55] Moon Metty: not suitable
[08:55] Esbee Linden: * email me anytime with ideas (or the opensource-dev list)
[08:55] Medhue Simoni: Here is my last comment about icon, when i open the sidebar my whole word stops for a minute
[08:55] Moon Metty: i will add my feedback to the jira
[08:55] Esbee Linden: * send comments, sketches, proposals. All good :)
[08:55] Moon Metty: and send a note, sometimes that's better
[08:56] Esbee Linden: * If you see a user story on the Snowstorm Team Product Backlog that interests your or you have questions on, let's talk about it.
[08:56] Moon Metty: yup
[08:56] Esbee Linden: I can't reply to everything I receive.
[08:56] Esbee Linden: But I do look at everything.
[08:56] Moon Metty: a reply is improtant though
[08:57] Moon Metty: we have no idea what you're up to back there
[08:57] Marigold Devin: Well a reply shouldn't be that important if you realise how busy people are back stage
[08:57] Marigold Devin: And if an idea gets put in place then you have your reply
[08:57] Moon Metty: (until it's released)
[08:57] Cummere Mayo: or at least an acknowledgement, especially if we're asking to discuss it more with you.
[08:57] Marigold Devin: Its amazing how I've watched the JIRAs seeming not to progress and then all of a sudden there's a result. That's always worth waiting for
[08:57] Cummere Mayo: even if its an automatic "this email was recieved and read"
[08:57] Esbee Linden: So know that we're trying to iron out this new process, this new way of working and we'll make lots of changes as we go.
[08:58] Jonathan Yap: Did you all see the notice about that issue with "you have been logged out until xxxx" being fixed?
[08:58] Q Linden: jiras are appreciated, esp when we get new jira
[08:58] Marigold Devin: Oh did I ever :-)))))
[08:58] Marigold Devin: Did I ever !!!!
[08:58] Marigold Devin: What will I do if I can't find any more ghosts??
[08:58] Oz Linden: I think you'll be happy with the transparency of the new Jira, at least for Snowstorm issues
[08:59] TriloByte Zanzibar: when is that coming, Oz?
[08:59] Esbee Linden: So with that, I want to thank everybody for coming this week!
[08:59] Marigold Devin: I've learned a lot this week.
[08:59] Moon Metty: good to see you up and about Q :)
[08:59] Q Linden: thanks!
[08:59] Cummere Mayo: esbee i would really like to get with you in the next couple of days please
[08:59] Honour McMillan: thank you Esbee (and all of you) :) see you next week
[08:59] Medhue Simoni: I for 1 would like to say that I appreciate what you all do, but in this time of massive upevil, things are heated and people are losing money, and you can bet they are mad, So, you need to have a really thick shin
[08:59] TriloByte Zanzibar: yes, welcome back Q
[08:59] Esbee Linden: I'll post a transcript from this meeting to the wiki.
[08:59] Ellla McMahon: REALLY good, Q :))
[08:59] Kopilo Hallard: :)
[09:00] Medhue Simoni: skin i mean
[09:00] Esbee Linden: Link to the transcript will be sent out to opensource-dev@
[09:00] Q Linden: shins too
[09:00] Cummere Mayo: and Q, I am really glad to see you back. please take care of yourself though :-/
[09:00] Marigold Devin: Thanks, Esbee, Q - and Ellla
[09:00] Jonathan Yap: Thick shin for when you get kicked? :)
[09:00] Moon Metty: thanks for the meeting Esbee, good luck!
[09:00] Q Linden: see you all!
[09:00] Esbee Linden: I'm off to commute into the office. Thanks everyone!
[09:00] Medhue Simoni: cya take care
[09:00] Nyx Linden: topics for my office hour can be posted here:
[09:01] Moon Metty: a shameless plug ..
[09:01] Nyx Linden: </shameless plug>

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