User:Nyx Linden/Office Hours Transcript 2010-09-22

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List of Attendees


[12:01] Nyx Linden: greetings all
[12:01] Hanna Lockwood: Hi
[12:01] Ishkiia Demar: hiya
[12:01] Gregory Wellman: *waves*
[12:01] Aargle Zymurgy: hey Nyx
[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi nyx. hi everybody
[12:01] Tensai Hilra: /me waves
[12:01] Nyx Linden: how's everyone doing today?
[12:01] Ishkiia Demar: great
[12:02] Hanna Lockwood: /me feels safe that the scary robot has a happy face
[12:02] choochoo Sierot: thnx fine
[12:02] Tensai Hilra: Quite good ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍
[12:02] Nyx Linden: /me is not scary :)
[12:02] Hanna Lockwood: :))
[12:02] Ishkiia Demar: LOL
[12:02] Tensai Hilra: =๏̂.̫๏̂=ᴹᴱᵂᵎ
[12:03] Cummere Mayo: yes you are nyx... but in a totally loveable way
[12:03] Nyx Linden: /me blinks
[12:03] Nyx Linden: anyways, have a lot of topics to get to today :)
[12:03] Tensai Hilra: its scary how loveable he is?
[12:03] Nyx Linden: agenda is here:
[12:04] Nyx Linden: first topic! "Workflow flaw: I have an outfit 'basic body' (containing shape/skin/eyes/hair), an outfit 'huds' with all the HUDs, and then any number of 'clothing' outfits. Now to dress the avatar, I replace whatever I wear with 'basic body' and then add 'huds' and the clothing on top. When trying to update the outfit now I can either 'save', which will save ALL the stuff to 'basic body'. That's bad. Or I can 'save as'. But when entering the name of the clothing set I added last, before adding/removing single pieces, that outfit is not overwritten but the client is saving a second outfit with the same name. Both ways are rather ugly. "
[12:04] GeneJ Composer: nods
[12:05] Tensai Hilra: yes, I have resorted to saving a complete set and delteing the parts from my base
[12:05] Nyx Linden: agreed, our tools for outfit management assume that you're putting yes, our outfit tools assume that you put everything in an outfit, not have "base" and "accessory" outfits - its a bit of an issue
[12:06] Tensai Hilra: perhaps an option to 'include locked sets' and flag the base and Hud layers as locked?
[12:06] Nyx Linden: changing it to handle partial outfits would be a non-trivial amount of work (to do correctly) - I'd love to gather ideas on the best way to do so without making things too complicated
[12:07] Reed Steamroller: hi hi
[12:07] Gregory Wellman: Hey Reed
[12:07] GeneJ Composer: (wonders ... will that be another new folder entry in inventory????)
[12:07] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:08] Cummere Mayo: ive already given some idea s twoards that
[12:08] Nyx Linden: indeed - I'd like to see us gather the various proposals and discuss which ones would be best to implement :)
[12:08] Techwolf Lupindo: /me makes it in.
[12:09] Ashasekayi Ra: /me waves to all.
[12:09] Reed Steamroller: Nyx, people on our blog are already sad about being restricted to the SL Avatar skeleton
[12:09] Rex Cronon: hi
[12:09] Vrai Frakture: /me disarms.
[12:09] Contagious Republic: nyx: are you the best linden to meet regarding mesh issues?
[12:09] Tensai Hilra: the only way I can think of would be to mark some folders as "base". it certianly would help
[12:09] Frozen Rage: no one fart
[12:09] Frozen Rage: might blow us all out of here
[12:09] Boroondas Gupte: (just arrived, sorry if I missed something) If partial outfits work already with classical outfits (i.e. normal folders containing items), what's so hard about making them work for new outfits (i.e. special folders with links to items)?
[12:09] Nyx Linden: Tensai - that brings up some pretty interesting edge cases on various outfit operations :)
[12:10] Reed Steamroller: #comment-7187
[12:10] Tensai Hilra: /me nods
[12:10] Tensai Hilra: perhaps a "This outfit includes parts that will override your base, do you wish to include or omit them?"
[12:10] Nyx Linden: Boroondas - not difficult to do partial outfits now, the trick comes when you hit "save" on the outfit - see topic one on the agenda page
[12:11] Morgaine Dinova: /me spots a tiny robot
[12:11] Boroondas Gupte: ah, ok
[12:11] Youri Ashton: lol, hey morg
[12:11] Nyx Linden: part of the problem is then we'd have to track multiple outfits being worn at the same time - "base" outfits and "accessory" outfits. If you added a random item, how do you know whether it belongs in the base outfit or one of the accessory outfits?
[12:11] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Youri :-)
[12:11] Reed Steamroller: i already responded to the comment on the blog, but gianna has yet to approve it
[12:12] Cummere Mayo: ultimately, ild like to see the outfit system allow a plugin for sl, with a kinda datebase where each item or folder can be given multiple tags, and then you can search by tags, then scroll down and check or uncheck things to add them or take them off
[12:12] Hanna Lockwood: Thats the same question I had Mr Reed
[12:12] Tensai Hilra: it would be a matter of not Base/accessories, etc... but flagging a tree as "base" so it checks against it
[12:12] Nyx Linden: Reed: please add a topic to the agenda for that
[12:12] Reed Steamroller: well even tho you're restricted to the standard AV skeleton, you can still do cool stuff
[12:13] Reed Steamroller: nyx, kk
[12:13] Reed Steamroller: URL?
[12:13] Nyx Linden:
[12:13] Reed Steamroller: /me is forgetful :(
[12:13] Reed Steamroller: you rock
[12:13] Hanna Lockwood: I added it already ..kinda
[12:13] Boroondas Gupte: I think a newly added item should not be part of any saved outfit, but only of what is currently called the "current outfit". The, only when you save the "current outfit" while it's being composed of more than one saved outfit + extra items, ask the user which item to save to which outfit.
[12:13] Nyx Linden: Tensai - could you write up a proposal either in jira or the opensource-dev list please?
[12:13] Ishkiia Demar: well one step at a time.... maybe in the future things won't have to be restricted
[12:14] Tensai Hilra: okay
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: I have not looked recently -- but you used to be able to select checkboxes for the parts you were doing a save on -- is that gone now?
[12:14] Nyx Linden: Boroondas - given that the user may have modified the contents of the "current oufti" arbitrarily since the last save, that might get complicated :)
[12:15] Boroondas Gupte: Or maybe make "save outfit" only produce complete outfit and allow manual linking for creation of partial outfits?
[12:15] Reed Steamroller: nyx, done
[12:15] Nyx Linden: I'd like to see us get a central place to discuss the various ways we can tackle this issue - is there a preference between JIRA or the os-dev list?
[12:15] Contagious Republic: i would tend to do a 'add to outfit' with the accessories, and a 'replace outfit' to go to base avatar again, but neither adresses multiple accessories sets
[12:15] Reed Steamroller: the court you hold is very orderly, nyx :)
[12:15] Nyx Linden: I try Reed :)
[12:15] Cummere Mayo: nyx, someone shy has an intresting idea ild like to paste to chat with her permission
[12:16] Boroondas Gupte: Might be more on-topic on th sl-ux list than on opensource-dev
[12:16] Nyx Linden: if its relevant to the current topic, please do so Cummere
[12:16] Aredhel Wulluf: /me giggles
[12:16] Cummere Mayo: her ideas is "What i ws thinking baout was like a closet of some sort being like a web inventory where ur cothing goes to and we can clear it from our inventory and go to the web page click the utfit we want and it appear on our avatar in world"
[12:16] Nyx Linden: (else add it as a new topic)
[12:16] Cummere Mayo: would give us MUCH more sorting and attachment options
[12:17] Reed Steamroller: bronson!
[12:17] Nyx Linden: moving appearance editing to the web is indeed an interesting proposal :)
[12:17] Reed Steamroller: :D
[12:17] Frozen Rage: yeah it would
[12:17] Frozen Rage: It would help cut down the lag of an Inventory load
[12:17] Aredhel Wulluf: >.>
[12:17] Aredhel Wulluf: <.<
[12:17] Tensai Hilra: intrepid users could even HUD the process on a prim
[12:17] Cummere Mayo: woe could set it up even to instnatly add an item to numberous outfit easily
[12:17] GeneJ Composer: << LUBS that idea.
[12:17] Nyx Linden: probably wouldn't be totally opposed to it, but would want to see specific design proposals :)
[12:18] Nyx Linden: would be an interesting project - would require web, server, and viewer changes
[12:18] Aida Rieko: well, already have house editing as web based, why not clothing *shrugs*
[12:18] Cummere Mayo: got a web monkey a coupel of us could borrow for a day nyx? (serious)
[12:18] Ashasekayi Ra: /me chuckles
[12:18] Reed Steamroller: may be easier for noobs to wrap their heads around as well
[12:18] Aredhel Wulluf: **AHahAHahAHah**
[12:19] Reed Steamroller: provided you don't put in DoS attacks in the web interface, Nyx
[12:19] Reed Steamroller: :D
[12:19] Tensai Hilra: /me snerks
[12:19] Cummere Mayo: /me chuckles
[12:19] Ishkiia Demar: LOL
[12:19] Nyx Linden: Cummere - not immediately available, but I'd like to get some design proposals evaluated from product, if it gets approved as something we want to do, we can poke around for web resources to assist
[12:19] Reed Steamroller: opening up 15 iframes to or something
[12:20] Cummere Mayo: okay was jsut asking cuase im not sure my web skills could put together a model that well
[12:20] Contagious Republic: how about adding it to the viewer, so the viewer keeps track of SOME inventory locally and can ask to wear it before it's truly loaded? That might help. Even 'load this bit of inventory first' folder may solve the more general problem...
[12:20] Nyx Linden: Cummere - nothing wrong with sketches or photoshop mockups :)
[12:20] Nyx Linden: anyways, I don't want to cut off discussion, but we have a lot of topics. mind if I move on?
[12:21] Ishkiia Demar: sounds good
[12:21] GeneJ Composer: k
[12:21] Nyx Linden: please do follow up with comments on the os-dev list
[12:21] Frozen Rage: actually
[12:21] choochoo Sierot: please do ..
[12:21] Nyx Linden: next topic: "Workflow flaw: to remove an item from an outfit you have to switch from "My Outfits" sidebar tab to "Inventory", why not allow removing items on the Outfits tab? "
[12:21] Frozen Rage: I have something I can show you as a base aspect for that Idea
[12:21] Frozen Rage: if you give me 1 moment
[12:21] Nyx Linden: Frozen - please post it to the os dev list, I'll respond to it there :)
[12:21] Frozen Rage: ok I need the link for that Ma'am
[12:22] Cummere Mayo: frozen one moment
[12:22] Tensai Hilra: whispers: Thats pretty straight forward... "OK
[12:22] GeneJ Composer: (you mean like "right click > remove from outfit?")
[12:22] Cummere Mayo: ill fetch it
[12:22] Tensai Hilra: Thats pretty straight forward... "OK"
[12:22] Tensai Hilra: sorry
[12:22] Nyx Linden:
[12:23] Nyx Linden: we're adding "remove" to the right click menu for the wearing tab, and you can remove from the outfit editor as well
[12:23] GeneJ Composer: kk
[12:23] Nyx Linden: you shouldn't have to switch between the inventory and outfit tabs.
[12:23] Frozen Rage: brb
[12:23] GeneJ Composer: nods
[12:23] Nyx Linden: is that sufficient?
[12:23] GeneJ Composer: would be for me.
[12:23] Ishkiia Demar: would be for me
[12:23] Nyx Linden: that was easy. moving on! "# VWR-22972[c] "
[12:24] Tensai Hilra: Webifying the outfits would eliminate the complaints of having to swich too, one could open a new window, heck even on a new screen/monitor
[12:24] Cummere Mayo: nyx, any word yet on if there will be the option to pick the ordering of multiwearable clothes and attachments yet?
[12:25] Nyx Linden: we add on top by default and give you options to reorder in the outfit edtior. I've asked esbee to follow up on the request to add ordering options to the right click menus of the inventory tab
[12:25] Tensai Hilra: STORM-66 would certianly be interesting... I've thought about that myself
[12:25] Cummere Mayo: thank you nyx
[12:26] Nyx Linden: anything else RE: VWR-22972 for this week Cummere?
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: um nto really other then ive split some stuff into multiple tasks like you asked
[12:26] Qie Niangao: hmmm... nobody asked for 100% transparency?
[12:26] Nyx Linden: much appreciated!
[12:26] Cummere Mayo: and that i welcoem all people to contribute ideas!
[12:27] Nyx Linden: yes, there's some interesting proposals there, everyone is encouraged to read over them, and comment / contribute
[12:27] Tensai Hilra: "VWR-18129 Allow partial alpha in new Alpha Layer clothing layer" That would be a nightmare... Useful but GL would be horrific with that
[12:27] Cummere Mayo: ill try and get to the rest of the ones that need split this week or next :)
[12:27] Nyx Linden: whatever you have time for would be appreciated!
[12:27] Cummere Mayo: also if anyone else knwos things that should be linked her, toss me a notecard please
[12:28] Nyx Linden: half way done OH and not halfway done topics, ready to keep moving?
[12:28] Gregory Wellman: *nods* will do
[12:28] Reed Steamroller: yes
[12:28] Nyx Linden: next topic: "Script Limitations - any further developments? "
[12:28] Nyx Linden: This one falls squarely in the "not my department" territory :)
[12:28] Reed Steamroller: any thoughts of bringing c# back
[12:28] Reed Steamroller: or any other mono supported languages?
[12:28] Ashasekayi Ra: Back?
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: ah crap
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: c# DEVELEOPMENT back
[12:29] Jonathan Yap: Babbage and crew were working on the C# project
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: how bout that?
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: yeah
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: i know
[12:29] Aargle Zymurgy: /me perks up over the C# thing
[12:29] Nyx Linden: this is a great topic for Kelly's OH on Mondays :D
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: but not nyx department
[12:29] Reed Steamroller: k
[12:29] Contagious Republic: c sharp? isn't that the microsoft proprietary thingy?
[12:29] Jonathan Yap: They weren't allowed to put out a public alpha of it
[12:29] Aargle Zymurgy: what time is Kelly's? bug triage is now closed down
[12:30] Reed Steamroller: contagious, i had the same question, but the answer is no, due to SL SIMs running on a linux varient
[12:30] Nyx Linden:
[12:30] Gooden Uggla: kelly is monday at 9am
[12:30] Ashasekayi Ra: Thanks for that link. You read my mind.
[12:30] Nyx Linden: 9 AM mondays on kelly's bling land
[12:30] Aargle Zymurgy: Contagious, it's just a language. it compiles to .net bytecode... and MONO is the linux version of that.
[12:30] Dahlia Trimble: C# is an open standard, Microsoft has a proprietary implementation
[12:30] Gooden Uggla: C# is tabled indefinitely
[12:30] Nyx Linden: moving on :)
[12:31] Nyx Linden: next topic "Possible system skirt improvement with current avatar mesh? (Not my thing, but may be of interest.) Qie 16:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC) "
[12:31] Reed Steamroller: yeah like a bunch of proprietary libraries for the windows environment, which SL is not.
[12:31] Nyx Linden:
[12:31] Qie Niangao: (That's just FYI, Nyx, unless anybody is excited by it.)
[12:31] Tensai Hilra: To be blunt, wouldnt the skirt fix be better done when mesh is here... as to not kill legacy products?
[12:31] Dahlia Trimble: Mono has open source versions of the same libraries
[12:31] Reed Steamroller: yep
[12:32] Qie Niangao: Tensai: probably. but the system skirt mesh was mentioned here a while back as needing fixed.
[12:32] Tensai Hilra: It woukld outrage people depending on the current behavior
[12:32] Nyx Linden: would need to modify the avatar mesh files for such a skirt fix. I wonder if anyone relys on the current behavior?
[12:32] Nyx Linden: (generally the answer to that is "yes")
[12:32] Reed Steamroller: you'd be able to do your own skirt w/ mesh
[12:32] Nyx Linden: in this case...I wonder
[12:32] Reed Steamroller: w/ matching UV's if you wanted them
[12:32] Gooden Uggla: it would make it unnecessary to have a prim piece on the front of short skirts
[12:33] Reed Steamroller: and provided you pulled off the modeling and rigging well enough, it would look much better than default skirt
[12:33] Nyx Linden: Yes, I'd be interested to see weighted mesh import skirts :)
[12:33] Tensai Hilra: I would say, it would need a dual approach.. a checkmark to use old/new method
[12:33] Heidi Fairport: I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone would rely on the poor weight painting on the skirt as a feature...
[12:33] Reed Steamroller: you could make a skirt that DOESN'T make your butt look huge
[12:33] Dahlia Trimble: I bet there are
[12:33] GeneJ Composer: :)
[12:33] Heidi Fairport: Are you sure it's the skirt doing that, Reed?
[12:33] Dahlia Trimble: people blend prims with the skirt
[12:33] Tensai Hilra: I find it hard to believe people would make skirts out of strips of fabric ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍ but alas...
[12:33] Nyx Linden: so we're not going to get to this before mesh open beta, most likely, but it is a decent proposal
[12:34] Reed Steamroller: dahlia, probably
[12:34] GeneJ Composer: Yes.
[12:34] Reed Steamroller: i guess
[12:34] Reed Steamroller: but
[12:34] Gooden Uggla: it has merit to consider
[12:34] Reed Steamroller: somebody will figure it out
[12:34] Reed Steamroller: the door is left open to a solution
[12:34] Nyx Linden: It does indeed have merit :)
[12:34] Tensai Hilra: perhaps, wait and see on that one, see if its self corrected, or it may serve to inspire designers
[12:34] Aargle Zymurgy: wife: "Does this dress make my ass look fat?" husband: "no, it's the years of donuts that do that." the husband should be getting out of the hospital in just a few weeks.
[12:35] Reed Steamroller: if it wasn't the skirt itself, you could replace the av butt as well
[12:35] Tensai Hilra: hehe
[12:35] Ashasekayi Ra: :D
[12:35] Nyx Linden: I encourage people to experiment with mesh skirts :)
[12:35] Frozen Rage: crap I cant find the link i was looking for
[12:35] Frozen Rage: -.-
[12:35] Tensai Hilra: (we would... ahem .... ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍
[12:35] Nyx Linden: Frozen - feel free to send it to me or the os-dev list later :D
[12:35] Reed Steamroller: really, i think the skirt itself would replace the butt
[12:36] Dahlia Trimble: I have a problem with the mesh skirt, the waist is too large and theres a big gap
[12:36] Reed Steamroller: no need for geometry that is unseen
[12:36] Nyx Linden: the skirt definitely affects the butt. darn cross-wearable params....
[12:36] Contagious Republic: it would be a really thight skirt then lolz
[12:36] Tensai Hilra: redd, but then all the slperverts could not upskirt
[12:36] Tensai Hilra: *reed
[12:36] Ishkiia Demar: LOL
[12:36] Ishkiia Demar: nyx
[12:37] Reed Steamroller: people that upskirt in SL are weirdos.
[12:37] Nyx Linden: cross-wearable params were the bane of my existance while working on multiwearables
[12:37] Tensai Hilra: hehe
[12:37] Ishkiia Demar: hate it when banes are banes
[12:37] Ashasekayi Ra: /me perv cams under Reeds hat.
[12:37] Reed Steamroller: /me is bald
[12:37] Ashasekayi Ra: -.-
[12:37] Nyx Linden: ok, getting off track, which means time for a topic change!
[12:37] Contagious Republic: weirdos are customers too, lolz, gor is full of those, re-lolz
[12:37] Reed Steamroller: cats out of the bag now :
[12:38] Nyx Linden: next topic: "Mesh instancing: If I make a zillion copies of a mesh, will they all share the same model asset, such that the model is only downloaded and decoded by the viewer once? Qie 17:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC) "
[12:38] Bronson Blackadder: cat?
[12:38] Boroondas Gupte: mew
[12:38] Cummere Mayo: nyx with the new meshes, are there plans for a simple mesh editor to be eventually added to 2.1 for those of us that cant afford big fancy programs like 3dmax?
[12:38] Nyx Linden: if they share the same asset, we should only have to download the asset once
[12:38] Reed Steamroller: cummere blender is free
[12:38] Contagious Republic: meshcrafter will be ready soon enough, lolz
[12:38] Nyx Linden: Cummere - can you add that as a topic?
[12:38] Reed Steamroller: will do everything you need
[12:38] Tensai Hilra: oooh, that could be interesting, provided it does not requre redownload due to physics interaction
[12:38] Cummere Mayo: sure
[12:38] Reed Steamroller: most of the beta testers were blender users
[12:38] Ashasekayi Ra: When did they add instancing??
[12:38] Abel Dreamscape: so one tree can be used 100 times without the draw lag?
[12:39] Bronson Blackadder: wings3D... googlesketchup... also free
[12:39] Ashasekayi Ra: <-- Blender beta tester
[12:39] Nyx Linden: we're not doing true instancing, though so it will still cause draw lag
[12:39] Tensai Hilra: Abel, Download lag, you still have to render it
[12:39] Nyx Linden: it will just be that you only have to download the data once
[12:39] Nyx Linden: but still render it every time
[12:39] Abel Dreamscape: aye
[12:39] Reed Steamroller: building modeling tools into the viewer = bad
[12:39] Reed Steamroller: software bloat
[12:39] Tensai Hilra: it seems silly to download it more than once... provided it doesnt expire from the cache in 2 seconds
[12:39] Nyx Linden: Reed - we'll get to it as a separate topic :)
[12:39] Reed Steamroller: k
[12:39] Ashasekayi Ra: So, if I use instancinf in my 3D program it will have a benefit in the rendering in SL?
[12:40] Qie Niangao: thanks., Nyx, wanted to verify that.
[12:40] Nyx Linden: np :)
[12:40] Ashasekayi Ra: *instancing
[12:40] Heidi Fairport: Agreed, Reed. We don't have a texture editor in-SL either, don't need either.
[12:40] Nyx Linden: we don't do rendering instancing in-world, no
[12:40] Ashasekayi Ra: It will help the file size then?
[12:40] Tensai Hilra: Instancing is where, if you download say a tree, and that tree is used 30 times, it is only downloaded once, not 30 times...
[12:40] Nyx Linden: but if you use the same asset multiple times in your build, it will save on the amount of information downloaded
[12:41] Reed Steamroller: thus rez time
[12:41] Tensai Hilra: like current texture use nyx?
[12:41] Contagious Republic: so basically the tree will load once per LOD
[12:41] Nyx Linden: correct Tensai
[12:41] Gregory Wellman: and sim load. :-)
[12:41] Ashasekayi Ra: So, are you talking about copies of the same mesh on a SIM?
[12:41] Tensai Hilra: yea, it seems silly not to do Instancing
[12:41] Nyx Linden: yes Ashasekayi
[12:41] Flimsey Freenote: for instance always use default transparent because it comes loaded
[12:41] Ashasekayi Ra: Ah ok... I misunderstood you.
[12:42] Nyx Linden: great question!
[12:42] Tensai Hilra: question is, will we be able to deform that mesh... if so, one download deformed for variance is how alot of games handle this problem
[12:42] Nyx Linden: You'll be able to resize, retexture, and affect face properties
[12:42] Contagious Republic: yay, so we can zombie invasion a sim without logging in a mob of bots! (-;
[12:43] Dahlia Trimble: no morphing from what I've heard, but you can scale
[12:43] Reed Steamroller: and your zombies will have less verts than default avatar
[12:43] Tensai Hilra: being the owner of a forest sim... I certianly endorse instancing
[12:43] Reed Steamroller: provided you model them that way
[12:43] Nyx Linden: true deformation would require separate assets
[12:43] Heidi Fairport: I'm sure that's the thought in a lot of avatar creators' minds, since if the mesh is static, it effectively destroys the ability for the customer to mod it.
[12:43] Contagious Republic: and show one face only at once for a 8-step anim cycle?
[12:44] Nyx Linden: Heidi - I think of meshes as new more expressive prims you can use.
[12:44] Nyx Linden: so if you make items out of a collection of mesh pieces, then those pieces can still be resized / moved around like normal prims
[12:44] Reed Steamroller: that are also unrestricted by scale
[12:44] Reed Steamroller: :D
[12:44] Heidi Fairport: Sounds like a blast. Has open beta, uh... opened?
[12:44] Reed Steamroller: for now....
[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Nyx, will there be new LSL functions for mesh (or is that "add it to the agenda" material?)
[12:45] Nyx Linden: Heidi - not yet, announcement of when the open beta will be will be sometime in the next week. watch the blogs :)
[12:45] Nyx Linden: Jonathan - its related to the next topic!
[12:45] Nyx Linden: next topic: "Mesh animation: Assuming the above-mentioned model asset exists, will a script be able to change the model in a rezzed mesh object to achieve the kind of "animation" that we get by swapping sculptmaps? (Or is some other form of mesh animation supported?) Qie 17:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC) "
[12:45] Tensai Hilra: so topic 6: instancing, I say YES
[12:45] Nyx Linden: /me shudders at this topic
[12:45] Ashasekayi Ra: O.o
[12:46] Ishkiia Demar: o.o
[12:46] Reed Steamroller: nyx, we're all going to want to be able to upload skeletons w/ our object not meant for wearing, but for prancing around as creatures/animals/etc
[12:46] Nyx Linden: that's a horribly expensive way to do animation - both for bandwidth and rendering reasons
[12:46] Reed Steamroller: eventually
[12:46] Tensai Hilra: ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍ people will want to animate them it seems a brute force method though
[12:46] Nyx Linden: Reed - skeletons are on the agenda, we'll get tot hem
[12:46] Reed Steamroller: but until that happens, what dude just mentioned is what you're going to get :
[12:46] Reed Steamroller: k
[12:47] Ashasekayi Ra: It wil happen though if they don't add custom skeletons.
[12:47] Qie Niangao: Contagious' idea is very interesting... although it means a very exotic mesh, with only one face/UV map at a time.
[12:47] Nyx Linden: I'd much rather people upload their meshes as different pieces and move the pieces around to animate
[12:47] Contagious Republic: it will be much easier to have permanently loaded sculpts who make 7 out of 8 textures transparent and the 8th is the frame you're using. No mesh reload cycles then.
[12:47] Tensai Hilra: Nyx, we all know how clunky that looks
[12:47] Heidi Fairport: Or for non-avatar objects, unless skeletons are planned for objects.
[12:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Nyx, very slow and horriable timing prolem.s
[12:47] Ishkiia Demar: that seems a more pliable way
[12:47] Ashasekayi Ra: That wouldn't work in a morphing situation though.
[12:48] Nyx Linden: Tensai - as opposed to downloading a separate mesh for each frame of the animation? o.0
[12:48] Techwolf Lupindo: Nyx, ever hear of preloading?
[12:48] Tensai Hilra: preload would be a good thing here.. or deformations... people will want to do it, or the product will flop
[12:48] Reed Steamroller: no, he's never heard of preloading.
[12:48] Contagious Republic: the problem becomes sync with other mesh, which is currently not garanteed and usually wrong by a small bit if you llTextureAnim, so people use laggy script for each frame instead.
[12:48] Reed Steamroller: pfft.
[12:48] Heidi Fairport: Preload the extra meshes. Look at some of Curious' avatars, or almost any furry avatar these days, and you'll see it.
[12:48] Reed Steamroller: /me is being sarcastic
[12:49] Techwolf Lupindo: Seawolf dragon just started to use that for the neck animation.
[12:49] Nyx Linden: preloading still requires you to download way too much data for the effect you're trying to have
[12:49] Reed Steamroller: yes
[12:49] Ishkiia Demar: I agree
[12:49] Tensai Hilra: unless you reuse the effect in a scene
[12:49] Jonathan Yap: Does it make any sense to ask if meshes can be set to Flexi?
[12:49] Nyx Linden: no flexi meshes
[12:49] Reed Steamroller: that would be a mess?
[12:49] Aargle Zymurgy: no, a mesh
[12:49] Aargle Zymurgy: :-)
[12:49] Reed Steamroller: theres no ordered structure to the verts
[12:50] Heidi Fairport: Seamless object animation looks better than trying to do something via a system like the XD prim animator. Plus you have less chance of stuff just plain failing if the sim performance drops more than half a percent.
[12:50] Tensai Hilra: you all just preloaded my iris door... didnt hurt did it?
[12:50] Boroondas Gupte: meshes belonging to the same animation will be highly correlated. compress them? only transmit diffs?
[12:50] Reed Steamroller: a flexi mesh would just like... explode all funny like
[12:50] Reed Steamroller: given the current code used to make prims flexi
[12:50] Ashasekayi Ra: Perhaps the flexi mesh could have a simple cage associated with it.
[12:50] Nyx Linden: Tensai - it burned with the fury of a thousand suns :)
[12:50] Tensai Hilra: ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍
[12:50] Reed Steamroller: ok, it would explode within the simple cage
[12:50] Ishkiia Demar: LOL
[12:50] Reed Steamroller: but it would still explode
[12:50] Heidi Fairport: That said, what about multiple mesh frames in a single mesh, switching between the layers of it using a texture?
[12:51] Tensai Hilra: for an example of that nyx, the iris there has the light on top for preload, using sculpt replacement at 10 fps
[12:51] Ashasekayi Ra: Nope. That is a similar method to what Blue Mars uses...albeit it more somplex.
[12:51] Nyx Linden: Heidi - mesh frames are more complicated than switching textures....and more bandwidth intensive
[12:51] Ashasekayi Ra: *complex
[12:51] Techwolf Lupindo: Ok. If you can't animate a mesh, that what the hell did the beta testers used in the demo video? Animated skupts.?
[12:51] Reed Steamroller: maybe use the solid mesh as some sort of goal
[12:51] Nyx Linden: they rigged the mesh to their avatar
[12:51] Nyx Linden: and then animated their avatar
[12:51] Heidi Fairport: I don't think I'm explaining it well...
[12:52] Nyx Linden: which is fine because you only have to download a single asset
[12:52] Reed Steamroller: so that the verts aren't allowed to stray too far from their solid counterparts
[12:52] Boroondas Gupte: ah, so rigging /is/ supported?
[12:52] Rex Cronon: how is the rigging done?
[12:52] Reed Steamroller: sort of like soft bodies in maya
[12:52] Qie Niangao: yeah... mostly I'm trying to cheat some sort of scripted deformation for unattached meshes
[12:52] Reed Steamroller: rex, not very easily :D
[12:52] Techwolf Lupindo: Looks like it going to have to be rigged to an object and animate it use the old fastion way of curretnl methods.
[12:52] Nyx Linden: rigging is done by adding bone weights to the vertices of the mesh
[12:52] Tensai Hilra: we shouldnt have to 'cheat'
[12:52] eL3ctro Attis: gosh... so weard game....
[12:52] Hanna Lockwood: it sure is
[12:52] Heidi Fairport: Ooh, there's an idea Tech - Binding mesh bones to standard prims?
[12:53] Nyx Linden: welcome to my office hour electro - feel free to join the discussion
[12:53] Reed Steamroller: rigging TO THE AVATAR is supported
[12:53] Gooden Uggla: i think it would be good to remember that a lot of residents (outside the US) have metered bandwidth
[12:53] eL3ctro Attis: Is the point of this game chatting?
[12:53] Boroondas Gupte: or to points on a prim even ... then you could animate by chaning prim params
[12:53] eL3ctro Attis: or what?
[12:53] Heidi Fairport: So a mesh object would basically have the same sort of rig controls you'd see in Maya, and could be animated via the old prim animation systems.
[12:53] Contagious Republic: so like next topic, animator tool makers will want official sample files to know EXACTLY which format to output for efficiency, instead of the current hit and miss of whether one of your friends is in beta
[12:54] Rex Cronon: u do the rigging inside the viewer our outside using a 3d editor(like maya, or blender)?
[12:54] Reed Steamroller: outside
[12:54] Ashasekayi Ra: You do it outside Rex.
[12:54] Rex Cronon: oh. so is part of the file u load
[12:54] Heidi Fairport: Dunno if that's what you meant, Techwolf, but I -really- like that as a suggested solution to the animation problem.
[12:54] Reed Steamroller: rigging is one of the more complex tasks in the 3D content field...
[12:54] Techwolf Lupindo: eL3cto, this is a vitrial world where you can do anything. Socialize with others, group meeting like here, or play games at other places.
[12:54] Reed Steamroller: Rex, yes
[12:54] Aida Rieko: /me thinks the point of SL deffinatly falls into the " Or what" catagory
[12:54] Ishkiia Demar: rigging makes sense ... and not so badnwidth intensive and also follows through with ttypical 3D modeling for animation principles.. they are industry standard for a reason :) only my humble opinion
[12:54] Ashasekayi Ra: You rig a copy of the avatar mesh with bones and use weight painting for the joints.
[12:55] Rex Cronon: thanks
[12:55] Reed Steamroller: np
[12:55] Jonathan Yap: Rex, look at this tutorial
[12:55] Reed Steamroller: i think we're under noob attack?
[12:55] Nyx Linden: rigging is definitely a more efficient way to go
[12:55] Tensai Hilra: /me sees hundreds of tiny alts rigged up to make animations for simple effects :(
[12:55] Ashasekayi Ra: Ooph
[12:56] Ashasekayi Ra: I didn't even think of that.
[12:56] Nyx Linden: requests for non-avatar animations might be handled later - we're a bit busy getting the base functionality stable first :)
[12:56] Reed Steamroller: "where do Iget teh mOney!"
[12:56] Heidi Fairport: Understandably.
[12:56] Qie Niangao: okay, thanks Nyx.
[12:56] Nyx Linden: one step at a time! :)
[12:56] Nyx Linden: next topic: "Inworld mesh tool makers demand official mesh sample files so they may fairly compete with each other at having a mesh exporter working first, instead of relying on what the beta testers are sharing with some and not others. This is important in the RL rent-paying level so competition should be encouraged to be fair. "
[12:56] Cummere Mayo: nyx clone yourself and get these projects done!
[12:56] Cummere Mayo: lol
[12:56] Tensai Hilra: atleast dont limit the steps we have... swapping mesh assets via set params is essential
[12:57] Nyx Linden: cloning machine is broken :(
[12:57] Heidi Fairport: Copybot yourself?
[12:57] GeneJ Composer: YES!!!
[12:57] Reed Steamroller: so write a patch for Nyx!
[12:57] GeneJ Composer: (to fair)
[12:57] Frozen Rage: better than becoming a porn bot right?
[12:57] Jonathan Yap: What if you wear several meshes on the same point and only (via script) have one visible at a time--that would be cheap animation of sorts
[12:57] Nyx Linden: Tensai - I'd like to discuss *why* its essential at some point (running out of time now)
[12:57] Reed Steamroller: official mesh sample files?
[12:57] Qie Niangao: Oh... Tensai, it appears those assets are no longer exposed, even in Inventory. :(
[12:57] Tensai Hilra: /me nods
[12:57] Nyx Linden: ok so on this topic...
[12:58] Nyx Linden: we're working on getting our documentation up to par for open beta now
[12:58] Techwolf Lupindo: Nyx, sounds like there need to be open standered basic starting SL compatiable meshes for the avatar makers to start with.
[12:58] Reed Steamroller: /me will be posting a maya>>second life mesh asset video soon
[12:58] Reed Steamroller: probably like today
[12:58] Reed Steamroller: watch our blog
[12:58] Nyx Linden: part of that documentation is going to be example objects
[12:58] Reed Steamroller:
[12:58] Heidi Fairport: I'll be watching for it, Reed.
[12:58] Contagious Republic: just tell me you'll forward the demand for official sample files optimally compatible with SL mesh, so that tool makers are not getting unfair avantages over other by means of linden friendships or bribes (already happened A LOT).
[12:59] Ishkiia Demar: /me loves maya
[12:59] Contagious Republic: i was just not in on it
[12:59] Gregory Wellman: reed, already visiting your blog every fwe days. :-)
[12:59] Reed Steamroller: /me bribes nyx with <3
[12:59] Techwolf Lupindo: The first use for meshes, replaceing the current avatar mesh with something that fixes the croutch area. Ever sit and see horrible streach textrue?
[12:59] Reed Steamroller: in a totally platonic way
[12:59] Boroondas Gupte: Time for Oz' OH. cu
[12:59] Gooden Uggla: geez dude, just bake soome brownies and slip them on nyx's desk
[12:59] Boroondas Gupte: /me waves
[13:00] Heidi Fairport: Haha, those lines go together well
[13:00] Nyx Linden: you can see the status of our documentation effort here: you can see the status of our documentation effort here:
[13:00] Reed Steamroller: techwolf, you'll be able to fix it
[13:00] Reed Steamroller: if you want
[13:00] Reed Steamroller: nyx who maintains that? torley?
[13:00] Nyx Linden: example files are going to be required for open beta, I don't know how far in advance they'll be on the wiki
[13:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Reed, the first avatar makers that make a compatiable replacment will make a fortune in SL.
[13:01] Nyx Linden: doc team is currently overloaded, so programmers and the closed beta participants :/
[13:01] Ashasekayi Ra: Nyx, where do we send our mesh tutorials when we are finished?
[13:01] Reed Steamroller: so make your own now?
[13:01] Techwolf Lupindo: brb.
[13:01] Reed Steamroller: you have the proper UV layout
[13:01] Heidi Fairport: Techwolf - Then it's a matter of selling off content creation rights to skin makers, which is like... Double the money.
[13:01] Nyx Linden: Jeremy did the first pass of documentation, we've been updating it
[13:01] Reed Steamroller: all you'll have to do is wait for the chance to upload it
[13:02] Nyx Linden: all our docs are public at this point, so we're not trying to play favorites or anything
[13:02] Reed Steamroller: Just like everybody else will have to.
[13:02] Cummere Mayo: /me thinks nyx may need to start adding a seocnd oh during the week ><
[13:02] Nyx Linden: and we're pushing to go to open beta as soon as we feasibly can
[13:02] Nyx Linden: so my answer to this one is: we're doing all we can :)
[13:02] Flimsey Freenote: good job Nyx
[13:02] Reed Steamroller: i think what you're really saying is that people who know how to model/rig an avatar and have its UV's be compatible w/ SL UV's will have an upper hand
[13:02] Ishkiia Demar: LOL
[13:02] Ishkiia Demar: nyx
[13:03] GeneJ Composer: :)
[13:03] Reed Steamroller: if that bothers you, learn how to do the same
[13:03] Contagious Republic: many of my competitors hold much more priviledged info that that.
[13:03] Tensai Hilra: well, if it sticks to the standards, then it shiuld be o trouble
[13:03] Tensai Hilra: *no
[13:03] Reed Steamroller: NDA is lifted, there isn't any "priviledged info
[13:03] Reed Steamroller: not any more
[13:03] Reed Steamroller: most people know about as much as we do/did
[13:04] Tensai Hilra: Privileged access is what he is worried about
[13:04] Contagious Republic: well it all depends on which beta tester is willing to give/sell you info which they are denying to others, at this point
[13:04] Nyx Linden: if there are specific questions you're having trouble finding the answers to, let me know directly and I'll try to get it added to the public documentation
[13:04] Reed Steamroller: and i'm not the sort of content maker that really depends on selling stuff in stores, so i'm pretty unbiased on teh topic
[13:04] Ashasekayi Ra: O.o
[13:04] Contagious Republic: i am on the 'deny' pile right now
[13:04] Reed Steamroller: i'm telling you, throughout open beta, you'll get enough of a foot hold on mesh to even out the odds with everybody else
[13:04] Reed Steamroller: so
[13:04] Reed Steamroller: calm down.
[13:05] Nyx Linden: open beta will be out soon. If there is any information you're not getting in the meantime, let me know what you need
[13:05] Reed Steamroller: see?
[13:05] Contagious Republic: yes, that will make me a week or two late on people who got closed beta files since a week and a half ago
[13:05] Nyx Linden: NDA is lifted so we want to make sure we put as much helpful info in the public docs as possible.
[13:05] Contagious Republic: other than the closed beta people
[13:05] Reed Steamroller: they didn't tell us "what the island really was" or "who shot jfk" or "the meaning of life" in closed beta
[13:05] Contagious Republic: ya and don't you forget it lol
[13:05] Ashasekayi Ra: Unreal.
[13:06] Nyx Linden: Tell me what info you're lacking and I'll get it. plain and simple.
[13:06] Reed Steamroller: who shot jfk?
[13:06] Reed Steamroller: :D
[13:06] Nyx Linden: classified Reed.
[13:06] Qie Niangao: Contagious: on the plus side, it's unlikely any of this will ever get backported to a 1.x viewer, so the market will be small at first anyway.
[13:06] Reed Steamroller: ohhhhh!
[13:06] Contagious Republic: allright, i'll make a list.
[13:06] Ashasekayi Ra: Nyx? How do we subit a tutorial to documentation? (sorry if you already answered it.)
[13:06] Heidi Fairport: How do other attachments play with mesh avatars?
[13:06] Tensai Hilra: you will see the biggest mass exodus to 2.x when mesh comes about
[13:06] Contagious Republic: qie: yes i am aware only noobs use 2.0 so far.
[13:06] Heidi Fairport: Are you still able to attach items to standard attach points then?
[13:06] Ashasekayi Ra: *submit
[13:07] Reed Steamroller: /me uses 2.0
[13:07] Reed Steamroller: /me isn't a noob :(
[13:07] Ashasekayi Ra: Yes Heidi
[13:07] Nyx Linden: Ash: if you get a tutorial together send it to me or add it to the wiki :)
[13:07] Qie Niangao: Tensai: I dunno. Shared Media is amazing, but nobody went to 2.x because of it.
[13:07] Reed Steamroller: media on a prim is too cool of a feature to give up!
[13:07] Ashasekayi Ra: Ok. Good deal.
[13:07] Nyx Linden: ok I'll stay late to try to get to the rest of the topics if you guys can stick around - I'll be going through them fast though :)
[13:07] Reed Steamroller: i guess that 2.0 depends on the eye of the beholder
[13:07] Reed Steamroller: yay nyx!
[13:08] Nyx Linden: If I don't get to something in enough detail you guys can re-add them to next week's agenda
[13:08] Rex Cronon: well. the next time somebody hacks your computer using media on a prim, is going to be interesting. think of the latest tweet hack:)
[13:08] Bronson Blackadder: 2.X has improved since it was first unvieled
[13:08] Reed Steamroller: /me is on linux
[13:08] Nyx Linden: next topic: "Simple question: Will we be able to make avatars larger and smaller than the current SL avatar if we use the same joint layout? "
[13:08] Bronson Blackadder: soon it will be unviled
[13:08] Reed Steamroller: not that linux is impenetrable.... but i mean... .chances are far less.
[13:08] Bronson Blackadder: :)
[13:09] Nyx Linden: we're working on bone offsets - the ability to resize the avatar bones. Nothing guaranteed, but we're working on it.
[13:09] GeneJ Composer: cough ... I went to v2 for MEDIA
[13:09] Heidi Fairport: Reed - So it's like Windows ME? So difficult to make something malicious that's compatible with it that it's not worth the trouble?
[13:09] Hanna Lockwood: so what size will a mesh AV be then?
[13:09] Reed Steamroller: heidi, yeah pretty much
[13:09] Nyx Linden: guys can we focus on the agenda topics for a few more minutes please? :)
[13:09] Tensai Hilra: /me looks down at ishkiia.. cant wait for it ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍
[13:09] Hanna Lockwood: it wont resize with sliders
[13:09] Nyx Linden: Hanna - what size do you want it? :)
[13:09] Reed Steamroller: not enough of a population using it to pay attention to i suppose :D
[13:09] Ishkiia Demar: LOL
[13:10] Reed Steamroller: nyx
[13:10] Hanna Lockwood: like shorter than me :p
[13:10] Nyx Linden: you'll have to use animations to resize the avatar
[13:10] Bronson Blackadder: ORDER IN THE COURT!
[13:10] Bronson Blackadder: focus people focus
[13:10] Nyx Linden: hacky, but it could work :)
[13:10] Reed Steamroller: i want to be a GIANT praying mantis
[13:10] Reed Steamroller: 64 meteres tall
[13:10] Hanna Lockwood: i mean before you add tall will an imported avatar be?
[13:10] Tensai Hilra: I've heard it will have adjustable scaling...
[13:10] Gregory Wellman: I would not want such large laggy avatars walking around :S
[13:11] Aida Rieko: I would be happy if at my current size, I don't sink into the floor when I sit.
[13:11] Reed Steamroller: why would it be laggy?
[13:11] Nyx Linden: if its a rigged avatar, it will depend on the size of the skeleton.
[13:11] Reed Steamroller: if its low poly, its low poly, independent of scale
[13:11] Nyx Linden: and what size you imported the mesh as.
[13:11] Nyx Linden: avatar complexity is a good topic for next week :)
[13:11] Ashasekayi Ra: /me nods.
[13:11] Gregory Wellman: yep, it is
[13:11] Tensai Hilra: /me nods...
[13:12] Hanna Lockwood: it sounded like you contradicted yourself im obviously not understanding
[13:12] Hanna Lockwood: i want to use the standard SL joints...just close together to be short
[13:12] Nyx Linden: Hanna - can discuss it after I get through the last few topics?
[13:12] Hanna Lockwood: sure ok...sorry :))
[13:12] Nyx Linden: next topic: People are sad that they are restricted to default avatar skeleton when rigging meshes :(
[13:12] Reed Steamroller: thats mine
[13:12] Reed Steamroller: !
[13:13] Nyx Linden: default skeleton - true, but bone offsets will let us resize the bones
[13:13] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[13:13] Reed Steamroller: but i NEED antlers that move
[13:13] Reed Steamroller: :(
[13:13] Nyx Linden: if you want a different skeletal structure, I have this to say: one step at a time :)
[13:13] Reed Steamroller: so just to clarify
[13:13] Tensai Hilra: and what will the 20 armed tentacle demons do?
[13:13] Nyx Linden: we're preparing for open beta. we're not "done"
[13:13] Tensai Hilra: ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍
[13:13] Ishkiia Demar: cheers nyx on witht he one step at a time
[13:13] Reed Steamroller: something like that will probably happen, eventually?
[13:13] Qie Niangao: Reed: antlers that move: can we hack animation on the hair length "bone" ?
[13:14] Nyx Linden: we want to get the *basic* functionality into everybody's hands first, and then see what additional features are most requested
[13:14] Rex Cronon: ahhh. i was looking forward to having 2 more arms;)
[13:14] Reed Steamroller: nyx
[13:14] Reed Steamroller: i'll be quoting you on our blog, is that ok?
[13:14] Nyx Linden: Reed: depends on the popularity of the request, what resources we have, how difficult it is to do technically
[13:15] Nyx Linden: so the default skeleton for now, other skeletons would be a project for later that we'd have to design, put on our backlog, and prioritize
[13:15] Nyx Linden: so I can't promise anything :)
[13:15] Reed Steamroller: quotable/
[13:15] Reed Steamroller: ?
[13:15] Nyx Linden: but I recognize that its a popular request :)
[13:15] Reed Steamroller: yeah
[13:15] Reed Steamroller: considering i bring it up every time i see you guys :D
[13:15] Reed Steamroller: just wanted a public, official answer
[13:15] Nyx Linden: just include the bit that I'm not promising everything please :P
[13:16] Nyx Linden: *anything
[13:16] Reed Steamroller: kk
[13:16] Tensai Hilra: cant promise a feature? *cough windlight cough*
[13:16] Nyx Linden: next topic: one more mesh q. IS the texture in the mesh collada file going to be limited to 1024x1024 as with all other textures?
[13:16] Nyx Linden: answer: yes.
[13:16] Abel Dreamscape: ok, may i expand that a litle bit?
[13:17] Nyx Linden: pelase
[13:17] Nyx Linden: *please
[13:17] Abel Dreamscape: i noticed while watching the timmi allen iveo, his building had much deeper textures then that of the main grid. id this somethingthat WAS available in the closed grid but wont be open to the main grid?
[13:17] Tensai Hilra: Is there a way to limit by Powers, not exact resolution? I mean 2048x512 would be handy as well the loads of other options
[13:17] Reed Steamroller: you can apply more than one texture file to a mesh object
[13:17] Reed Steamroller: sort of like UV tiles
[13:17] Nyx Linden: Tensai: not right now :)
[13:17] Reed Steamroller: google that
[13:17] Ishkiia Demar: I'm sorry I need to go as much as I would like to stay.. .. thanks Nyx for your time and all that you do... create a great day everyone.
[13:18] GeneJ Composer: bibi Ishkila
[13:18] Ashasekayi Ra: /me waves to Ishkiia
[13:18] GeneJ Composer: Ishkiia
[13:18] Nyx Linden: next topic: "nyx with the new meshes, are there plans for a simple mesh editor to be eventually added to 2.1 for those of us that cant afford big fancy programs like 3dmax? "
[13:18] Rex Cronon: tc
[13:18] Nyx Linden: answer: no.
[13:18] Reed Steamroller: thank god
[13:18] Nyx Linden: we haven't integrated photoshop into the viewer either.
[13:18] Reed Steamroller: with good reason
[13:18] Bronson Blackadder: there is a few free ones out on the mrket that can be used
[13:18] Nyx Linden: there are free alternatives that are pretty good
[13:19] Reed Steamroller: blender, like 90% of the beta testers use that
[13:19] Nyx Linden: I started using wings3D last night, its pretty easy to pick up
[13:19] Reed Steamroller: i think theres like 2 other people besides myself using maya
[13:19] Rex Cronon: u don't need to integrate PS into the viewer, u just need the viewer to be able to communicate with PS, blender, maya... :)
[13:19] Tensai Hilra: 3DS Dos.. the only way ;)
[13:19] Reed Steamroller: i don't know of any of them using 3dsmax
[13:19] Bronson Blackadder: wings3D is pretty easy to grasp
[13:19] Qie Niangao: Nyx, nobody comes to SL so they can use the viewer to make 2D pictures.
[13:19] Gregory Wellman: /me uses Maya
[13:19] Abel Dreamscape: and blender is releaseing a new version ALF
[13:19] Nyx Linden: blender is more powerful
[13:19] Bronson Blackadder: Blender is professional grade if you can master it
[13:19] Abel Dreamscape: it seems to be a better UI then the current one
[13:20] Reed Steamroller: i don't know if wings will do rigging
[13:20] Reed Steamroller: blender does
[13:20] Nyx Linden: Qie - yet textures are important to building in SL now yes?
[13:20] Ashasekayi Ra: Winds doesn't do rigging.
[13:20] Ashasekayi Ra: *Wings
[13:20] Qie Niangao: yes, but it's not part of what sells SL: being able to do 2D graphics
[13:20] Ashasekayi Ra: The only free one for rigging is Blender as far as I know.
[13:20] Qie Niangao: being able to immerse in 3D social building *has* sold SL
[13:20] Bronson Blackadder: wings will be very helpful for those people making shoes and other assorted objects
[13:20] Reed Steamroller: would be cool if maya/3dsmax/blender/whatever could communicate with the viewer tho, i'll admit..... you know, like how unity 3d commincaates with those same programs
[13:21] Reed Steamroller: or like Zbrush and say... Maya communicate via GoZ
[13:21] Ashasekayi Ra: hehe...GoZ for SL.
[13:21] Nyx Linden: there will still be plenty to do and build in 3D with mesh - you just need to upload pieces that you assemble and construct in-world
[13:21] Ashasekayi Ra: That would be cool.
[13:21] Reed Steamroller: exactly
[13:21] Reed Steamroller: any changes to the object in maya are instantly reflected on the mesh object in world
[13:21] Nyx Linden: we don't have the time, resources, budget, etc to compete with 3D modelers, and the viewer is complicated enough already
[13:21] Reed Steamroller: that would be awesome
[13:22] Reed Steamroller: develope a plugin ssystem for the viewer
[13:22] Abel Dreamscape: a bridge
[13:22] Nyx Linden: Reed: I'd love to see an OS dev write an interface for that to happen :)
[13:22] Reed Steamroller: let residents figure the "bridge" code out for themselves
[13:22] Tensai Hilra: Local assets, ala phoenix.. that would do it
[13:22] Qie Niangao: okay, Nyx, but you're leaving one market for another. If that market isn't where you think it is, there are rough times ahead.
[13:22] Ashasekayi Ra: I'm sure a TPV might do it.
[13:22] Reed Steamroller: cough cough qarl is writing plugin code cough cough
[13:23] Ashasekayi Ra: Is Qarl working with a TPV?
[13:23] Rex Cronon: where is qarl?
[13:23] Nyx Linden: Qie: would you prefer we hold off on releasing mesh for another 3 years to integrate an editor that would be less powerful than what's out there now?
[13:23] Abel Dreamscape: i say nay!
[13:23] GeneJ Composer: (,,, didn't ask me, but nuuuuuu)
[13:24] Reed Steamroller: rex, all lindens go to heaven
[13:24] Rex Cronon: we don't really need integration! we actully need communication:)
[13:24] Qie Niangao: no, don't have to hold off... don't have to build anything, except expose a mesh-manipulation messaging to the viewer, and let TPVs build it from Blender scraps or whatever
[13:24] Reed Steamroller: you can see him on fridays at 11 SLT
[13:24] Reed Steamroller: tho
[13:24] Nyx Linden: I'd be happy to review patches for such a framework if a TPV dev wanted to work on one
[13:24] Ashasekayi Ra: See him where?
[13:25] Nyx Linden: we don't have time to write such a framework ourselves right now.
[13:25] Reed Steamroller: ok, i've got to go
[13:25] Reed Steamroller: nyx
[13:25] Reed Steamroller: thanks for sticking around
[13:25] Nyx Linden: ok, getting close to half an hour over, I have work to get to
[13:25] Nyx Linden: any last-minute questions?
[13:25] Reed Steamroller: SLAVE FOR US
[13:25] Reed Steamroller: SLAVE THE CODE
[13:25] Reed Steamroller: :D
[13:25] Abel Dreamscape: oh one more....
[13:25] Ashasekayi Ra: Thanks for the meeting Nyx.
[13:25] Abel Dreamscape: really fast one
[13:25] Hanna Lockwood: were you going to explain my question to me Nyx?
[13:26] Gregory Wellman: Cya Reed
[13:26] Abel Dreamscape: what wa sthe liltations on polys for mesh again? as per prim count
[13:26] Tensai Hilra: no offence, but I would personally like to see what the TPV do... they have suprised us time and time again... good and bad
[13:26] Ashasekayi Ra: Later Reed
[13:26] Rex Cronon: tc
[13:26] Bronson Blackadder: Abel its still in flux
[13:26] Abel Dreamscape: ah i figured as much
[13:26] Nyx Linden: 65k polys is max, but that would result in a *lot* of prims for that mesh
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: i am doing division to see what i make in mesh and what it would be primwise inworld
[13:27] Nyx Linden: the way we compute how many prims a mesh would be is still under debate / in flux
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: well i mean polys per prim
[13:27] Nyx Linden: Hanna - yes
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: kk
[13:27] Nyx Linden: Abel - its not quite that simple :D
[13:27] Reed Steamroller: you guys should lower that limit IMHO
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: i heard at one point itwas 512
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: which would make it fit in nicely with sculpts and prim prims
[13:27] Nyx Linden: that's not accurate.
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: leaving them stil viable
[13:27] Tensai Hilra: (as long as it doesnt break a phsics when a mesh says 35 prims ̗̀:̩̍)̵̩̩̍
[13:27] Abel Dreamscape: ok i guess i will wait another week
[13:28] GeneJ Composer: tyty, have to run.
[13:28] GeneJ Composer: Appreciate your time; what you do.
[13:28] Nyx Linden: its more complicated than that - I'll try to get more info over the next week
[13:28] Abel Dreamscape: thank you nyx.
[13:28] Nyx Linden: Hanna - ok, back to skeletons
[13:28] Hanna Lockwood: :)
[13:28] Nyx Linden: what specifically was the question?
[13:28] Rex Cronon: tc nyx
[13:29] Hanna Lockwood: so i thought i understood...that i have to wait till bone offset till i can make a smaller avatar than the current shortest one
[13:29] Hanna Lockwood: but then you said if i make a smaller mesh
[13:29] Nyx Linden: correct.
[13:29] Hanna Lockwood: it will work
[13:29] Reed Steamroller: bye nyx!
[13:29] Nyx Linden: ahh
[13:29] Nyx Linden: so this is for a rigged mesh specifically, right?
[13:29] Hanna Lockwood: yes i dont know what other kind there is
[13:30] Rex Cronon: oh. i though u were leaving:)
[13:30] Hanna Lockwood: but i can rig and stuff
[13:30] Nyx Linden: meshes don't have to be rigged to the skeleton - you can have a mesh that is static and doesn't deform based on the skeleton
[13:30] Nyx Linden: if you do that you can make your avatar any size
[13:30] Hanna Lockwood: right ok
[13:30] Hanna Lockwood: ooh
[13:30] Hanna Lockwood: like a tiny now
[13:31] Nyx Linden: if you want it to move with your avatar's skeleton, then you need to have your avatar mesh be close to the scale of your skeleton
[13:31] Hanna Lockwood: i guess
[13:31] Nyx Linden: which you should be able to modify using bone offsets
[13:31] Hanna Lockwood: so what happens if you move sliders while wearing your custom rigged mesh?
[13:31] Hanna Lockwood: does it deform?
[13:31] Nyx Linden: we're working on it actively, no promises but I'm hopeful :)
[13:32] Nyx Linden: if the sliders affect the skeleton it will deform.
[13:32] Hanna Lockwood: like height etc
[13:32] Hanna Lockwood: ok
[13:32] Nyx Linden: if the sliders you're moving affect something that isn't a skeletal change, then it won't have any effect
[13:32] Hanna Lockwood: and weights are pulled from the collada?
[13:32] Nyx Linden: correct
[13:32] Hanna Lockwood: ok
[13:32] Hanna Lockwood: thank you Nyx!
[13:33] Nyx Linden: there's a limit on the number of weights a given vertex can have (how many bones its weighted to)
[13:33] Tensai Hilra: /me wonders how long it will take for tasseled western wear to become popular
[13:33] Nyx Linden: I *think* the limit is 4, but I'm unsure
[13:33] Hanna Lockwood: right ok
[13:33] Nyx Linden: but that is probably fine
[13:33] Hanna Lockwood: /me is glad you are short too so you maybe will push this issue
[13:33] Hanna Lockwood: :p
[13:33] Nyx Linden: ok anything else?
[13:33] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Nyx.
[13:33] Nyx Linden: thanks all for coming!
[13:34] Nyx Linden: have a great week everyone :D
[13:34] Ashasekayi Ra: Thanks Nyx. Take care.
[13:34] Aida Rieko: Thanks Nyx.
[13:34] Hanna Lockwood: you too bybye everbody
[13:34] Rex Cronon: have fun nyx
[13:34] Nyx Linden: /me heads off to get some work done.

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