User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-08-02

List of Attendees

Transcript

[07:28]	Oz Linden:	Hey - it's Ardy Lay - the MAN OF THE HOUR !!!!
[07:28]	Ardy Lay:	WHy is that?
[07:28]	Oz Linden:	The cache fix
[07:29]	Ardy Lay:	I didn't catch the cache bug.
[07:29]	Oz Linden:	oops... who was it?
[07:29]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	dzonatas then why is perl sticking to me ?
[07:30]	Dzonatas Sol:	the one about sobjects or gVFS/StatisVFS?
[07:30]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew mentioned it so I did a search and edited the source, made a patch, and put patch and transcript in pJIRA for others to see.
[07:30]	Dzonatas Sol:	maybe perl expects to be petted
[07:30]	Oz Linden:	Ah... well, thank you very much for your part
[07:31]	Oz Linden:	that's a huge catch, and the fact that open devs found it has not been missed internally
[07:31]	Oz Linden:	Q imported the fix on Friday and it will be in the 2.1.1 release of the main viewer this week
[07:32]	Ardy Lay:	It does seem to help scene loading significantly.
[07:33]	Oz Linden:	Wolfpup: (there are a couple of invisible places on the parcel that can command perl to follow the nearest person... she'll get tired of you or distracted by someone else eventually)
[07:33]	Dzonatas Sol:	or i could move... and perl will sit
[07:34]	Ardy Lay:	Oh no, a bored border collie. The most dangers kind.
[07:34]	Oz Linden:	Austrailian Shepard, but they're very close and both share that danger :-)
[07:34]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[07:36]	Oz Linden:	A great example of parallel results - one was developed by shepards in the Scottish Highlands, and the other by shepards in the Basque mountains... they got remarkably similar results
[07:36]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	im trying to figure out how to get nearby chat history back into the conversation floater
[07:36]	Oz Linden:	in which viewer?
[07:36]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	2.x
[07:36]	Ardy Lay:	Wow. Morgaine lives to be a cocklebur. Reading coments on JIRA.
[07:37]	Oz Linden:	LOL
[07:37]	Dzonatas Sol:	Alter Ego of Prokofy
[07:37]	Oz Linden:	I don't understand, Wolfpup... my Nearby Chat floater has scrolling history
[07:38]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes but it is its onw floater where in 1.x code it is part of the conversation floater
[07:39]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	and i know of a few people that hate the clutter in the 2.x viewer
[07:39]	Ardy Lay:	Nearby chat, IMs, groups and friends were all in one "tabbed container" in Viewer 1.23.5
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	ah... you mean that the nearby floater does not also include the chat text entry?
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	I see
[07:39]	Ardy Lay:	Text entry is within that tabbed container, yes.
[07:40]	Oz Linden:	It bugs me that I can't include the chat line in the nearby floater - it's not consistent with what you get for group or individual chat floaters
[07:41]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that is one thing im going to try and fix if i can get it combined with the conversation floater
[07:41]	Ardy Lay:	That provides some benefits: Opacity toggle follow chat entry focus, alt and arrow keys can be used to browse conversation tabs, all tabs can be extracted into their own floater if desired and recombined if desired.
[07:41]	Sheet Spotter:	G'day Latif
[07:41]	Latif Khalifa:	hello :)
[07:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	I like detached.. =)
[07:42]	Ardy Lay:	Control T focuses contacts and control H focuses chat history.
[07:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	so i can see everybody
[07:42]	Robin Cornelius:	yay got the chair again
[07:43]	Ardy Lay:	Plus, "Show Muted Text" is an option.
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	I'd love it if someone (or some group) would put together a proposal on chat
[07:43]	Oz Linden:	Here's what I'd like to see:
[07:43]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	im thinking of making a copy of the im floater and renaming it for the nearby chat floater that way it can be included in the conversation flioater and also have the arrow next to the normal chat input field bring up the conversation floater and have tabed as a sed default
[07:43]	Jonathan Yap:	For the late arrivals - is this about viewer 2.1 ?
[07:43]	Sheet Spotter:	Yessir.
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	A comprehensive description of chat behavior and UI, with options that allow exactly the 2.1 default, and options that modify it in well defined ways
[07:45]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i do noe know about any one else but i miss having parcel info in the status bar
[07:45]	Oz Linden:	what info is missing that you want?
[07:45]	Dzonatas Sol:	I would like to use source code as that proposal
[07:45]	Jonathan Yap:	Do you mean the About Land item?
[07:45]	Oz Linden:	No source code as proposals
[07:46]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	there is a mini navigation info bar that would be better is if was in the same bar as the status
[07:46]	Sheet Spotter:	When you click on the address bar it will show you the URL, which includes the position.
[07:46]	Oz Linden:	If we want to be taken seriously, we have to start acting like real software engineers and getting agreement on what is to be done before we do it
[07:46]	Dzonatas Sol:	Source code as proposals match "source code as documentation" standards. Proof-of-concept.
[07:46]	Jonathan Yap:	You can enable your position display
[07:46]	Jonathan Yap:	That is a right click option
[07:47]	Dzonatas Sol:	Agreements without proof is a disaster waiting to happen.
[07:47]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i know and i have it enabled but it stis as its own floater ie more clutter
[07:47]	Dzonatas Sol:	False security
[07:47]	Oz Linden:	There's a checkbox for showing position in the default display, along with selectors for building, pushing, flying
[07:48]	Ardy Lay:	I liked clicking on parcel name opening "About Land" so I could make rapid changes to gain control of a situation.
[07:48]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, proposal for local chat changes?
[07:48]	Oz Linden:	Writing code no one will take because it's not what they want is a waste of time and just gets you frustrated
[07:48]	Jonathan Yap:	There is an xml hack you can make to put the about land button on there
[07:49]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	there is also an xml 'hack' that disables the im popups
[07:49]	Oz Linden:	Wolfpup.... don't know what you mean.. the position data is in the address bar, not a floater
[07:49]	Ardy Lay:	Oh God I hate those "toasts".
[07:50]	Dzonatas Sol:	Hiring people to do a job that's not really interesting it in the first place is just odd when people could be hired that are interested in doing it.
[07:50]	Oz Linden:	"toasts" ?
[07:50]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	oz do you have the normal navagaion bar on in your vierwe?
[07:50]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes the toasts
[07:50]	Oz Linden:	what's normal?
[07:50]	Oz Linden:	I have no idea what "toasts" are
[07:51]	Ardy Lay:	"Toasts" is what LL is calling the messages that fly up on the screen then vanish just as you are trying to see what the hell is distracting you.
[07:51]	Latif Khalifa:	For local chat, there are a ton of jira-s out there, but it comes down to this: add an option to have focus kept on local chat input, allow local chat to be docked with other conversations, and add ability for a simple text overlay local chat instead of the toasts
[07:51]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	there is two navagation bards the full size(normal) and the min
[07:51]	Dzonatas Sol:	interested in it*
[07:52]	Oz Linden:	ah... the little popup conversation bubbles? I have those turned off...
[07:52]	Ardy Lay:	Where is the option to kill those?
[07:52]	Sheet Spotter:	When the Nearby Chat window is minimized the chat comes up as toasts. Same for IM.
[07:52]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, close down chat history, and you will see what we mean
[07:52]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i have the history window open all the time to keep those turnd off
[07:53]	Jonathan Yap:	Oz, are you talking about bubbles above people's head? Because toasts are not those -- they are the rectangular messages that show up
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	Just my personal opinion, but I think that one of the problems that is preventing progress on fixing chat is that we don't have (anywhere inside or outside as far as I can tell) a single description of how it should work
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	instead, we have lots of people shouting (and few listening) about random individual changes they want made
[07:53]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	there are a lot of people that would perfer it to work like it did in 1.23
[07:53]	Sheet Spotter:	I thought Latif gave a compelling summary.
[07:54]	Oz Linden:	Latif - I prefer to use chat history, and don't much care about other modes for my own use - I'm not up to tracking events all over the screen
[07:54]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i even hate that i have to hit return befor i can even type anything or my cam gose nutz
[07:55]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, that's because we don't have simple text overlay
[07:55]	Latif Khalifa:	in 1.23 it works nicely
[07:55]	Dzonatas Sol:	My proposal is simple. I wouldn't change a thing except add the ability for detahced windows that give multi-head client support.
[07:55]	Oz Linden:	Sheet: I don't _want_ a summary. I want a _comprehensive_ description
[07:55]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	even text entry works right
[07:56]	Latif Khalifa:	my summary was comprehensive ;) if you want cream and suger with it, that's another issue
[07:56]	Latif Khalifa:	i could just add JIRA nubmers with 100+ votes
[07:56]	Sheet Spotter:	Every comprehensive description starts with a summary. :-)
[07:57]	Latif Khalifa:	and when JIRA has 100 votes it's big
[07:57]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	latif i think what oz is wanting would be a guideline to follow to improve the text entry and chat system as a whole
[07:58]	Latif Khalifa:	WolfPup people have put a lot of effort into describing the issues on the jira
[07:58]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	then we need to combine those jiras into a meta
[07:58]	Oz Linden:	I don't much care about votes, frankly - they are a very very crude mechanism. If you'd asked people to vote on whether or not the iPhone would be good (a pretty mediocre cell phone with a mediocre camera that happened to have a touch screen and run little apps) they never would have voted for it.
[07:58]	Ardy Lay:	Wow. I don't know what to say.
[07:58]	Oz Linden:	Exactly Wolfpup
[07:59]	Latif Khalifa:	frankly that attitude will get you exactly nowhere Oz
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	If I go to LL PMs with a bag of Jiras, I won't get far
[07:59]	Ardy Lay:	Oz, was Viewer 2 written to a design document?
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	If I go with one clear and comprehensive description of all the options and modes, there is some chance of getting a productive discussion happening
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	I wasn't here, Ardy, I don't know
[08:00]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	bvut if you had a meta jira the listed all the issues with the chat system to the PMs oz that would be better and get their attention
[08:01]	Ardy Lay:	WolfPup, that's pretty much the same thing as a "bag of JIRAs".
[08:01]	Dzonatas Sol:	I also note "detached" means "pluggable"... but that's for another comprehensive description.
[08:01]	Oz Linden:	I do know how I've been successful before on other projects... if people won't engage in a well-formulated debate, it's possible to get around them. Not constructing a well-formulated statement of goals makes it easy for them to ignore you
[08:01]	Oz Linden:	Ardy +10
[08:02]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	a 'bag of jiras' is different than a 'structured jira'
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	forget Jiras for now
[08:02]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	and a meta 'structures' them
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	Jira is a good way to track the things you know you want to do - it's a lousy way to see the big picture
[08:03]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that is true also oz
[08:04]	Dzonatas Sol:	Jira is good for lower-level separation
[08:04]	Jonathan Yap:	Will someone volunteer to make up this feature list?
[08:04]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm.... To do this one has to know what everybody needs.
[08:05]	Dzonatas Sol:	I'm working on the UI myself
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	i can put a proposal up
[08:05]	Dzonatas Sol:	So to continue to have someone else do it would be stepping on toes
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	You have to take a stab at it and then start a discussion and change it, but what's being discussed has to be in writing so that everyone agrees on what it is
[08:05]	Jonathan Yap:	Screen shots might be a good idea
[08:06]	Robin Cornelius:	I think UI mock ups even gimp/photoshop edits can help get your ideas across
[08:06]	Oz Linden:	Screen shots are a very good idea
[08:06]	Dzonatas Sol:	I think whatever it is should be changeable in such a way that to get there isn't being affected by what people want. They can get want they want if they can "create content" and add to it.
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	but you will have a tough luck convincing Q about it ;)
[08:07]	Latif Khalifa:	so I am a bit hesitant to spend much effort on it, but I can still give it a shot as a test
[08:07]	Oz Linden:	My job is deal with Q - and with you lot - I'm not sure yet which will be the greater challenge
[08:07]	Robin Cornelius:	/me thinks hirding cats
[08:07]	Robin Cornelius:	/me pUrrrpUrrr~~
[08:07]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	/me wants that sound sample
[08:08]	Ardy Lay:	Well, I am still at a loss for a starting point.
[08:08]	Dzonatas Sol:	"Your Viewer ; Your Imagination"
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	Ok Latif - think you can have a strawman by next week?
[08:08]	Latif Khalifa:	yes
[08:08]	Dzonatas Sol:	Don't let someone force a UI on you that is really unabled... one UI doesn't fit all
[08:08]	Dzonatas Sol:	isn't*
[08:09]	Oz Linden:	doesn't have to be perfect - it's a conversation starter, not the final answer
[08:09]	Robin Cornelius:	i'm all for low level flexibility
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	i think i have a pretty good idea what experienced SL users want from local chat
[08:09]	Oz Linden:	Right, Dzontas ... it must be able to accomodate multiple preferences, and we have to be clear what each does in terms of focus and display
[08:10]	Dzonatas Sol:	unabled= usable
[08:10]	Dzonatas Sol:	dang fingers
[08:10]	Robin Cornelius:	I have some very sketchy concepts that i could put down, but they are much lower level ideas rather than actual direct UI changes, but they would empower UI changes
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	Don't talk about _HOW_ - talk about the user experience
[08:10]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	mabey if the 2.x viewer had mor 'flexablity' it wulkd be mor popular
[08:10]	Dzonatas Sol:	The user experience is being able to create content right down to their desktop and going back in-world seamlessly
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	once we have enough agreement on the user story, the how is not that hard to figure out
[08:11]	Latif Khalifa:	i agree, how is easy
[08:11]	Oz Linden:	Wolfpup: that's exactly why I'm bringing up the subject
[08:11]	Dzonatas Sol:	If I can't simply drag-n-drop something I created on my desktop, and put in in-world with a single mothion... I'm not going to agree on any other UI
[08:12]	Dzonatas Sol:	But I do know how not to change
[08:12]	Oz Linden:	So, now that we've got chat out of the way - any other topics ?
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	My proposal will be along these 3 enhancements: 1) add an option to have focus kept on local chat input 2) allow local chat to be docked with other conversations 3) add ability for a simple text overlay local chat instead of the toasts
[08:12]	Latif Khalifa:	(that will cover 1.x users needs nicely)
[08:13]	Oz Linden:	Don't write it in terms of changes
[08:13]	Oz Linden:	Write what the total experience should be
[08:13]	Oz Linden:	once there is agreement on that, _then_ we derive what the changes are to get there
[08:13]	Oz Linden:	(highlight them, by all means, but describe everything)
[08:14]	Jonathan Yap:	Oz, have you used a 1.23 type viewer much?
[08:14]	Oz Linden:	Not in a couple of years, Jonathan, and I didn't stick with it then
[08:14]	Oz Linden:	I don't need to be convinced that the 2.x chat UI is not good
[08:15]	Ardy Lay:	Start in a vacuum? Isn't how Viewer 2 was designed? I fear I will miss something if I try that. Miss a lot of somethings.
[08:15]	Oz Linden:	(I use it too much to need that)
[08:15]	Oz Linden:	If I were going to do this, I'd start by describing what the 2.x UI does now
[08:16]	Oz Linden:	then I'd edit it to be what I think it should be, including optional modes
[08:16]	Oz Linden:	don't worry about which option settings are the default... that's a separate questions
[08:16]	Oz Linden:	s/questions/question/
[08:16]	Jonathan Yap:	I've always found that little NE pointing arrow to "breakout" a window non-intuitive
[08:17]	Dzonatas Sol:	I want the experience to be seamless, non-blocking, being able to stay in the "Flow"... not having to be forced to use any written text... gestures only. But I'm being more specific as I describe more.
[08:17]	Dzonatas Sol:	If there is UI that requires text... then a gesture should be able to "write" for me
[08:17]	Latif Khalifa:	i don't think i can descibe it well, without pointing out the differences betweeen to the two UI. In any case I'll give it a shot ;)
[08:17]	Oz Linden:	that's interesting, but I think it goes beyond what we need to get 1.x users to be happy again
[08:18]	Jonathan Yap:	While we are at it -- are the 2.0 fonts acceptable?
[08:18]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	latif you might want to have a side by side screen shot of the two viewers
[08:18]	Dzonatas Sol:	1.x want 1.x UI... they aren't going get 1.x if we don't change 2.x.
[08:19]	Ardy Lay:	I have trouble reading chat history in Viewer 2.1 and feel fatigued from it pretty quickly.
[08:19]	Oz Linden:	Free your imaginations... if you get stuck on 1.x vs 2.x you're not going to see any other possibilities
[08:19]	Jonathan Yap:	Because the font is too small Ardy?
[08:19]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	mabey a merger of 1.x and 2.x ui
[08:19]	Dzonatas Sol:	MonoVida was basically the same layout of 1.x.
[08:20]	Oz Linden:	(you can reset the font size in the display window, but not in the text entry chat bar)
[08:20]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	there are a lot of good fetures in the 2.x and 1.x ui
[08:20]	Ardy Lay:	I find it hard to say what the cause is but I suspect the lines of text are a little too close togeather and the characters in a line are too close togeather. Moon Metty has described this in great detail in JIRA.
[08:20]	Dzonatas Sol:	Not we have 2.x, so I would only need to change Icesphere to 2.x style... no change to Snowglobe UI
[08:20]	Dzonatas Sol:	Now*
[08:20]	Oz Linden:	(I agree on the line spacing)
[08:22]	Sheet Spotter:	I wish the chiclets were optional, but that's not a huge issue. (Why download everyone's profile image?)
[08:22]	Dzonatas Sol:	Maybe the user experience... the UI... should also support different backends to different parts of the metaverse
[08:22]	Dzonatas Sol:	Snowglobe can act as that "shared code base" as a backend
[08:23]	Ardy Lay:	Oh, I used to be able to comfortably run two viewer sessions but with Viewer 2 I am finding that works poorly. Two things, resource contention issues I think. Host memory: Viewer 2 uses more than Snowglobe 1.4.0 in a given environment; GPU time or bus time, Viewer 2 does something that causes what appears to be bus contantion. Otherwise I could run one sessin of each and compare them more closely.
[08:23]	Dzonatas Sol:	Going from one side of the metaverse to ther other side of the metaverse would be seamless in the UI
[08:24]	Dzonatas Sol:	Changing monolithic viewers just to go from one grid to another grid... is not seamless.
[08:25]	Ardy Lay:	I can certainly try to help with this but don't think I alone could properly describe the UI needs of SL Residents.
[08:25]	Dzonatas Sol:	Being able to keep "chat" sessions open across grid changes would be seamless.
[08:26]	Oz Linden:	what does it mean to have local chat be seamless across grids?
[08:26]	Dzonatas Sol:	chat sessions, not just local chat,... all IMs
[08:26]	Dzonatas Sol:	all group conferences
[08:26]	Dzonatas Sol:	and "business" conferences
[08:27]	Ardy Lay:	Dzonatas, I don't think you are going to get system session handoff like that. Heck, even the mobile phone operators still haven't gotten that right and have been fussing with it since 1965.
[08:27]	Latif Khalifa:	I have no idea what topic we're on
[08:27]	Ardy Lay:	They are getting close now but have run out of IP addresses to tunnel!
[08:27]	Oz Linden:	/me wonders too
[08:27]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i think dzonatas is talking about being able to talk to people on different grids no mater what grid you are on
[08:27]	Dzonatas Sol:	Imagine a "friends list" that also shows what grid they are in.
[08:28]	Latif Khalifa:	LL has made it clear that it has no time/resources for multi-grid interop
[08:28]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	/me only uses aditi and agini
[08:28]	Latif Khalifa:	so for now, that topic is dead on the linden front
[08:28]	Ardy Lay:	Dzonatas, that's for later. For now think "User Interface".
[08:28]	Dzonatas Sol:	Philip has made it clear for a shared code base.
[08:28]	Oz Linden:	/me thinks we should worry about the UI first
[08:28]	Dzonatas Sol:	I am thinking user interface.
[08:28]	Jonathan Yap:	Let's stick to what can be achieved with the resources we have
[08:28]	Latif Khalifa:	agreed
[08:28]	Dzonatas Sol:	I have been thinking user interface for the last few years... and more
[08:29]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	seconds concentrating on ui
[08:29]	Dzonatas Sol:	Tell me how the your friends list is not part of the UI.
[08:29]	Oz Linden:	and I like the multi-window ideas you've done, Dzonatas
[08:29]	Dzonatas Sol:	Thank you.
[08:29]	Ardy Lay:	Yeah, "Grid" is just another column in the table, right?
[08:29]	Oz Linden:	whether or not they are on the same grid is not part of the UI
[08:30]	Dzonatas Sol:	backend is not what I'm talk about.. that's a strawman
[08:30]	Latif Khalifa:	so the goal "make viewer2 attractive for people who prefer 1.x style interface" will be difficult to achieve without some radical changes. my only hope is that LL are willing to make those radical changes
[08:30]	Dzonatas Sol:	I'm think UI only...
[08:30]	Dzonatas Sol:	"SEAMLESS"
[08:30]	Oz Linden:	indeed, I'd argue that if you want seamless, then it shouldn't even be displayed in the UI
[08:30]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm.... I would NOT want grid name for each friend to be on the screen unless I am querying it.
[08:31]	Jonathan Yap:	A hovertip could be used to show the grid name
[08:31]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	true ardy the screen is 'cluttered enough
[08:31]	Dzonatas Sol:	I think that option to display where your friend presence is and an option that shouldn't be forces on the user
[08:31]	Jonathan Yap:	Or you could have a tiny icon for each grid
[08:31]	Oz Linden:	What LL is "willing" to do remains to be seen. LL does recognize that Viewer 2 did not hit the mark. Now it's time to try to shape the future
[08:31]	Dzonatas Sol:	is an an option
[08:32]	Dzonatas Sol:	Some don't want to see it.. some do... its an option... rather if an option is displayed or not is a function of the UI... not the data the drives it
[08:32]	Dzonatas Sol:	that*
[08:32]	Latif Khalifa:	but I think Oz'es approach is right, devide and conquer. Devide the problem into clearly defined areas: in my view those are: chat/communications, notifications and the sidebar (profiles, groups, etc)
[08:33]	Latif Khalifa:	(excuse typonese)
[08:33]	Dzonatas Sol:	UIs are data driven.
[08:33]	Ardy Lay:	Oz, uhmm... You don't know what a relief it was to hear that, do you? The feeling that LL was blindly marching forward into the abyss was driving me nuts. Glad it's gone now.
[08:33]	Dzonatas Sol:	We just try to "flow" that data in the way the user wants it designed.
[08:34]	Oz Linden:	If you heard Phillip last week there should be no doubt in your mind that we are not marching blindly
[08:34]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes if we get the ui to where more people like it then we can work in getting the 'fuctionality' improved
[08:34]	Ardy Lay:	I played back the recording later as I missed the live transmission.
[08:34]	Oz Linden:	I feel fortunate to not have been here for the develop-in-the-dark phase (indeed, I would not have come), but we're not there now
[08:35]	Latif Khalifa:	Philips message has to propagate down the ranks. My own experience with the viewer team is that they have the attitude of "we know best", so what you people do is "whine" and "rant", and its your own fault for not liking it
[08:35]	Ardy Lay:	Oz, is color scheme "off limits" still?
[08:36]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	/me is wondering the same thing.
[08:36]	Dzonatas Sol:	I would really love a prim-build or sketch-up based modeler for the UI... I would love it move if I could hand everybody a copy of such a tool. And have the UI fully function their way.... and they can rebuild it if they want.
[08:36]	Oz Linden:	Understand one thing ... the viewer team was not management, and management has changed in some profoundly important ways
[08:36]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i miss the 'silver' ui coloring of 1.x
[08:36]	Dzonatas Sol:	Pick up an icon on the desktop... click click... functionality... activate... drag and drop where you want it on the screen.
[08:36]	Oz Linden:	Nothing is off limits (which doesn't mean that everything will be warmly received)
[08:37]	Ardy Lay:	I was in the Viewer 2 closed beta and damn near anything I had to say got discarded, so, yeah, glad that's over.
[08:37]	Jonathan Yap:	You have to set priorities on what is worked on first
[08:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, I understand that well, I'm talking about the viewer team. Erica, the UI designer thinks the chat was fixed in 2.0, since it was so horrible before
[08:37]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	your not the only one ardy i was there as well
[08:37]	Ardy Lay:	Got so mad I had siezures and had to drop out for a while.
[08:37]	Dzonatas Sol:	Even better yet... how about being able for users to create their own UI and hold contests... or let them sell them for L$
[08:37]	Sheet Spotter:	Changing colors should be possible by creating a skin.
[08:37]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	heck i ended up actualy codeing one of my sugestiond to the v2
[08:37]	Oz Linden:	Changing colors should be a dialog
[08:38]	Dzonatas Sol:	Every head of selling a UI for L$
[08:38]	Latif Khalifa:	Q is so defensive over his baby any meaningful conversation is impossible, before he gets "sad at the tone", "non constructive comments", etc etc
[08:38]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	in 1.x it is actualy a setting in the prferences pannel
[08:38]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	called 'skins'
[08:38]	Jonathan Yap:	Didn't Q say that he mightbe moving into a different role?
[08:39]	Oz Linden:	Q is not as bad as you all think he is. One of my missions is to teach you how to influence things better, including dealing with Q.
[08:39]	Dzonatas Sol:	Selling a UI for L$ would mean business for me.
[08:39]	Oz Linden:	I've got to wrap up now (we're over time). I'm going to leave you with one important thought:
[08:39]	Dzonatas Sol:	Would mean maybe a Second Chance(TM) for some
[08:39]	Ardy Lay:	Well, I do wish Morgaine would quick attacking Linden in meetings. It just stymies communication.
[08:40]	Ardy Lay:	-quick +quit
[08:40]	Oz Linden:	Q was instrumental in recruiting me into LL. Without him convincing me personally that LL needed to do a better job of open source, and that he wanted that to happen, I would not be here.
[08:41]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	well im glad you are here oz
[08:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Q is a great manager, everybody says that. But Q is lousy comminicator, thinks of his customers as enemies, and comes off as being arrogant and unresponsive
[08:42]	Ardy Lay:	"Open Source" isn't my goal, it's a tool. My goal is "User Influence". That's what makes SL work.
[08:42]	Jonathan Yap:	Thank you Oz
[08:42]	Oz Linden:	And a teaser.... big news coming soon (and no, I won't give you any hints)
[08:42]	Jonathan Yap:	Time for lunch
[08:42]	Oz Linden:	bye all
[08:42]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	tc oz
[08:42]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Oz
[08:42]	Jonathan Yap:	/me notes mesh is overdue
[08:42]	Oz Linden:	and thank you - this meeting is definitly one for the archive

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User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-08-02

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