User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 July 16

• [11:04] The region: you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details.
• [11:04] Phantom Ninetails: lol, fitting avatar. Greetings Which
• [11:05] Which Linden: hey there
• [11:05] Yann Dufaux: hello Which :)
• [11:06] Which Linden: looks like all the action is going on in aw groupies chat
• [11:07] Which Linden: nice av, brandon
• [11:07] Brandon Shinobu: Thanks :D
• [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: wow
• [11:07] Which Linden: looks even better once all the sculpties download
• [11:08] Latif Khalifa: hey all :)
• [11:08] Phantom Ninetails: Greetings
• [11:08] Which Linden: how are y'all doing?
• [11:09] Phantom Ninetails: Swell, how about you
• [11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which!
• [11:09] Which Linden: pretty good now that I discovered the "Don't send IM to chat console" preference!
• [11:09] Phantom Ninetails: lol :)
• [11:09] Which Linden: I am easily confused
• [11:10] Phantom Ninetails: lol
• [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: speaking of local chat, have you noticed an issue with local chat and the 1.27 server code?
• [11:10] Which Linden: no....what issue did you see?
• [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: several people in groupies have commented that it seems borked ATM
• [11:10] Brandon Shinobu: I'm mainly here to eavesdrop on the office hours! I apologize if I'm quiet :D
• [11:10] Phantom Ninetails: I haven't.. Local chat is terrible with chat lag and out of order-ness as always
• [11:10] Which Linden: sure no problem Brandon, it's not like you're really sneaking around there
• [11:11] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [11:11] Which Linden: so we're currently on a 1.26 sim
• [11:11] Which Linden: so we won't get to experience whatever it is
• [11:11] Which Linden: I'd love to try switching local chat to TCP to see if that improves things
• [11:11] Which Linden: I think I'd have to restart the sim to make that happen though
• [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: I haven't been doing much local chat today anyway so I can't say either way
• [11:12] Phantom Ninetails: It's on udp?
• [11:12] Latif Khalifa: it will not change much
• [11:13] Latif Khalifa: switching to CAP would avoid chat lines from a single agent coming out of order, but that would only mean more lag in case of dropped packets
• [11:14] Which Linden: well yes and no latif
• [11:14] Which Linden: TCP is better with dropped packets than our "reliable UDP"
• [11:14] Phantom Ninetails: lol reliable UDP
• [11:14] Latif Khalifa: Phantom, TCP is is buta a reliable UDP
• [11:14] Which Linden: in particular "reliable UDP" consumes more CPU
• [11:15] ATechwolf Foxclaw: ICQ used UDP in the early days and it scaled very well for IMs.
• [11:15] Which Linden: I'm sure there's a way to write an efficient implementation of IM-over-UDP, but what we have is not that
• [11:16] Which Linden: What we have is kinda more aimed at sending commands to the dataserver to do things to the database
• [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: The local chat lag I've been seeing (mostly in office hours) has been in 1.26. I think it's just a general rise in congestion.
• [11:16] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Today, I don't know if ICQ still uses that. So many NAT routers that broke UDP in many places.
• [11:16] Phantom Ninetails: Morgaine, we see it all the time in sandboxes
• [11:16] Yann Dufaux: which, do you have more information about the new http-in fonctions?
• [11:16] Which Linden: Yann: I'm afraid I don't
• [11:17] Which Linden: if you have specific questions I can try and find out the answers for you though
• [11:17] Yann Dufaux: because i think you can, remake a new version of teleport script :)
• [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: er, hi Mela
• [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Mealea*
• [11:19] Mealea Ying: dammit
• [11:20] Which Linden: so hey check it out:
• [11:20] Which Linden: [1]
• [11:20] Which Linden: working on some docs
• [11:21] Which Linden: tell me what you think
• [11:22] Mealea Ying: I thin Im about to crash
• [11:22] Brandon Shinobu: Someone mentioned http-in sourced temporary resources, for things like images, etc. Do you know anything about that Which?
• [11:22] Which Linden: What do you mean "temporary resources", brandon?
• [11:23] Which Linden: Do you mean it takes script time or something?
• [11:23] Latif Khalifa: which does waiter.wait() support timeout value?
• [11:23] Brandon Shinobu: They didn't actually explain it fully. They said they saw it mentioned on the sldev mailing list. But basically, being able to rez an object and have it use a texture drawnfrom http-in somehow, for the time it's rezzed, instead of relying on the asset servers.
• [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: textures are cached on the sim currently?
• [11:24] Tapple Gao: eventlet looks to me like a poor-man's twisted python
• [11:24] Tapple Gao: at first glance
• [11:25] Which Linden: Latif: no, you'd want to do a 'with api.timeout(10): waiter.wait()'
• [11:25] Which Linden: Brandon: Wow, that would be cool but I don't know anything about how to do that
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Tapple its prety useful. pyogp can scale drastically as far as we can tell due to eventlets
• [11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Careful Which, Mealea is right behind you, and she's probably eyeing up your fronds as food for her critters ;-)
• [11:26] Which Linden: ruh roh!
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: watch out Uncle Scobby
• [11:26] Mealea Ying: hehehehehehe
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Scoobby
• [11:26] Brandon Shinobu: Scooby-rooby-roo?
• [11:26] Which Linden: Tapple: eventlet has a twisted compatibility module, the main point of it is to avoid having to write a jillion callbacks; aside from that it's pretty agnostic
• [11:27] Which Linden: Twisted is basically "look we implemented every protocol ever, here!"
• [11:27] Mealea Ying: nice
• [11:27] Mealea Ying: so one program can talk to anything?
• [11:27] Tapple Gao: ok
• [11:28] Which Linden: Mealea: of course, as long as it's programmed properly!
• [11:28] Mealea Ying: does it wrong to see what happens
• [11:28] Tapple Gao: hmm. at second glance, eventlet looks to have nothing to do with twisted; it's just an event library
• [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: you can wrap any function inside eventlet and run it as a coroutine (sorta kinda well maybe not)
• [11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: watch out on the "scale drastically" bit, since that's what made the group IM service die last Wednesday. The coroutine code was reverted.
• [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: I took WX and made it work with eventlet with just a few lines of code
• [11:29] Tapple Gao: I'd almost rather have a straight event-driven language, like LSL or js or smalltalk
• [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: took some time to figure out WHICH few lines to add but it was very trivial
• [11:30] Tapple Gao: maybe I'm overthinking
• [11:30] Which Linden: Morgaine: actually that's backwards
• [11:30] Which Linden: The code we're running on now uses only coroutines
• [11:31] Which Linden: The code that had to be reverted was multiprocess
• [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: That's interesting
• [11:32] Which Linden: Ineed
• [11:32] Which Linden: *Indeed
• [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: (Trying to reconcile that with what Enus said)
• [11:33] Mealea Ying: grins at BloooJitty
• [11:33] Morgaine Dinova: So the coroutines were spread out over multiple O/S processes, and that barfed?
• [11:33] Mealea Ying: Kitty
• [11:33] Imaze Rhiano: ... back...
• [11:34] Morgaine Dinova: tries to draw more comment from Which about stuff that may be "classified" ^_^
• [11:34] Mealea Ying: shes checking with Enus
• [11:34] Mealea Ying: hehehe
• [11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
• [11:34] Which Linden: Morgaine: I don't know to that much detail but apparently the processes would stall if a simhost was busy and didn't respond in time
• [11:35] Which Linden: Coroutines don't really have that problem (though we do still have issues, just not as severe)
• [11:35] Brandon Shinobu: Which, just out of curiosity, why the look at python code and such?
• [11:35] Which Linden: Brandon: not sure I understand your question
• [11:35] Tapple Gao: well, I definitely prefer event-driven rather than multipresess, for anything io-bound
• [11:35] Brandon Shinobu: maybe I came a little too late and missed something.
• [11:35] Which Linden: you mean, why post the link to Eventlet?
• [11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Argggghhhh ... the processes were running on the sim host?
• [11:35] Brandon Shinobu: Yes
• [11:36] Which Linden: Oh, well, I work on eventlet
• [11:36] Brandon Shinobu: I see
• [11:36] Which Linden: It is relevant to my interests :-)
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: is the server code still in python or is it in C++?
• [11:36] Which Linden: And as you can see, we use it for some internal services
• [11:36] Brandon Shinobu: I was thinking maybe it was related to a new version of LSL or something.
• [11:36] Which Linden: Sai: a mixture; the sim is C++
• [11:37] Which Linden: Morgaine: the processes were not on the sim hosts, but they had to connect to the sim processes occasionally
• [11:37] Which Linden: So, as an overview, I work on server side stuff at LL, which are generally not open-source
• [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Phew, thought the sim CPUs were having MORE work given to them :-)
• [11:37] Which Linden: So it's a little hard to really discuss things I work on here at my OH
• [11:38] Which Linden: But I use eventlet during my work, so that's a decent topic
• [11:38] Phantom Ninetails: Well you could paste random lines of code and not tell us what they do!
• [11:38] Which Linden: Ha ha ha
• [11:38] Phantom Ninetails: :P
• [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
• [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Seconded :-)
• [11:39] Mealea Ying: hmmm yah, paste 1.27, and dont tell us what it is and we wont save or log it or anything
• [11:39] Morgaine Dinova: We promise :P
• [11:39] Phantom Ninetails: Oh yes, totally
• [11:40] Mealea Ying: yes, yes we do, and when you give us real fingers they wont be crossed
• [11:40] Phantom Ninetails: lol
• [11:40] Which Linden: ha ha ha, just pick some uncommented code that we don't use anymore, let you guys worry about whether the obvious error in it is causing the grid to die
• [11:41] Phantom Ninetails: lol
• [11:41] Mealea Ying: oh you dont use 1.27 any more? wow
• [11:41] Mealea Ying: neat
• [11:41] Brandon Shinobu: Which could always make some code that contains "Hello, Avatar!"
• [11:41] Which Linden: Yeah that's old hat, we use 1.30 internally and it's awesome
• [11:42] Phantom Ninetails: lol
• [11:42] Brandon Shinobu: o.o
• [11:42] Brandon Shinobu: Is LSL getting love in 1.3? :D
• [11:42] Latif Khalifa: was browsing eventlet docs... still find c# threading and its AutoResetEvents much easier to grok ;)
• [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: So what kind of thing do you use eventlets for Which, without being specific?
• [11:42] Which Linden: There's a new right-click "roundhouse kick"
• [11:42] Tapple Gao: only cuz it's not load tested
• [11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: is there a default Chuck NOrris avatar?
• [11:43] Brandon Shinobu: oh, I thought he was serious :(
• [11:43] Xugu Madison: What's so awesome in 1.30 Which? :)
• [11:43] Mealea Ying: hahahah!!!!!
• [11:43] Phantom Ninetails: Every single bug fixed yet?
• [11:43] Which Linden: Instead of UDP we use "a series of punches to the face"
• [11:43] Phantom Ninetails: lol
• [11:43] Morgaine Dinova: ROFL
• [11:43] Tapple Gao: eall prims in 1.30 rez upzide down
• [11:43] Tapple Gao: its awesome
• [11:44] Tapple Gao: you can dig tunnels
• [11:44] Which Linden: Every prim looks like a kung fu kick or a dinosaur, and every texture is an image of your own death
• [11:44] Phantom Ninetails: lol, awesome
• [11:44] Morgaine Dinova: If you pay extra, you can use the Black Belt protocol
• [11:44] Mealea Ying: does it have sound effects too?
• [11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, but Chuck NOrris STILL cant defeat Angry Mom
• [11:44] Imaze Rhiano: Babbage did said something about better instrumentation in 1.30 - so you can see how many bytes scripts in your attachments are goign to use
• [11:44] Mealea Ying: and does its mouth move before and after speaking??
• [11:44] Latif Khalifa: had "all images upside down" proxy for his open wi-fi access point :P
• [11:44] Which Linden: The only sound effect is your own crying as you sit in front of your computer
• [11:45] Which Linden: ha ha ha that's funny Latif, nice one
• [11:45] Which Linden: ah....yeah
• [11:45] Latif Khalifa: so bandwith leachers had a big WTF trying to browse the web ;)
• [11:45] Mealea Ying: drat
• [11:45] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I remember that /. dtory.
• [11:46] Which Linden: well that was fun
• [11:46] Phantom Ninetails: Entertaining :P
• [11:46] Which Linden: so yeah I use it for quite a variety of internal things; maintenance tools mostly
• [11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: python?
• [11:46] Morgaine Dinova: eventlet
• [11:47] Tapple Gao: bython is the second best language out there, after smalltalk
• [11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: bi-thong?
• [11:47] Tapple Gao: ya
• [11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: now I know why I've been misspelling it all that time
• [11:47] Mealea Ying: what is better about smalltalk?
• [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Trithong is faster though
• [11:47] Brandon Shinobu: is getting hungry.
• [11:50] Which Linden: As a quick poll, did anyone notice an unexpected 1 L$ group liability last week?
• [11:50] Morgaine Dinova: I saw the forums complaining about that
• [11:50] Tapple Gao: not I
• [11:50] Brandon Shinobu: Considering I only have 13L, 1 less can't hurt.
• [11:50] Phantom Ninetails: I didn't notice
• [11:50] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Let me check. I just notice I have $2 and it sould be $3
• [11:50] Latif Khalifa: Which, I get so many transactions, I wouldn't notice much larger ones
• [11:50] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [11:51] Mealea Ying: yes, and for somereason everyone in the group it happened in wanted to know what I was going to do about it, the funny thing is telling them I would double it every time someone asked about it shut them right up and its not even my group
• [11:51] Morgaine Dinova: That's the most effective kind of tax, once that the taxed don't even notice :-)
• [11:52] Brandon Shinobu: :o
• [11:52] Brandon Shinobu: Mealea, whyfor?
• [11:52] Mealea Ying: just in case you meet the tax collector
• [11:52] Brandon Shinobu: scary words :(
• [11:52] Xugu Madison: Thinking of payments... Which, I hear you're the Linden to ask, any chance of supporting money/inventory delivery in an actual transactional manner, with being able to check if it arrived, for example?
• [11:53] Which Linden: ha ha ha Mealea
• [11:53] Brandon Shinobu: Thank you :D
• [11:53] Mealea Ying: any time
• [11:53] Mealea Ying: grins!
• [11:53] Which Linden: Xugu: great question, I'd love to support that but it's a lot of work
• [11:53] Brandon Shinobu: how about 3 seconds from now? :D (kidding!)
• [11:53] Mealea Ying: well anytime possible
• [11:53] Xugu Madison: Which, I'll ask again in 2010, eh?
• [11:54] Which Linden: So...the group liability was corrected yesterday, so everyone who lost 1 L$ got it back
• [11:54] Mealea Ying: hehehe, that might be too soon, I need to sell something first
• [11:54] Which Linden: Xugu: yeah :-)
• [11:54] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Ooo...I found it.
• [11:54] Imaze Rhiano: now you have 3L?
• [11:54] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I did have a un-autherize $1 on 6-30-2009
• [11:54] Which Linden: Dig in those couch cushions!
• [11:54] Morgaine Dinova: Which: you've pretty much got transactions covered with your escrow system, no?
• [11:54] Which Linden: Morgaine: yes, that's what that's for
• [11:54] Brandon Shinobu: shares the love with ATech
• [11:54] Mealea Ying: I dont think I did actualy, I should have multiples of 5 and I dont
• [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: points Xugu to the diagram above us showing Which's escrow protocol
• [11:56] Latif Khalifa: Xugu, use a bot to deliver goods :) that way you know when inventory offer was accepted
• [11:56] Xugu Madison: Morgaine, and as someone who sells by setting a price on stuff and leaving it like that, it's fantastic. However, vendors do have a place...
• [11:56] ATechwolf Foxclaw: hehe...that was a surpize.
• [11:56] Brandon Shinobu: Which, do you know why we can't set an object's price and sale properties via script?
• [11:56] Xugu Madison: Latif, money events can still be eaten by the grid, alas
• [11:56] Tapple Gao: thinks "scarecrow" whenever she hears "escrow"
• [11:56] Which Linden: Brandon: no, I wasn't even aware you couldn't
• [11:56] Brandon Shinobu: unfortunately no, you can't.
• [11:56] Mealea Ying: hmmmmmm.... I like this bamboo more and more every second.....
• [11:57] Brandon Shinobu: you can only set it through th build GUI
• [11:57] Xugu Madison: Which, llGetSalePrice() and llSetSalePrice would bring me a lot of joy...
• [11:57] Latif Khalifa: Xugu, shown in search too++
• [11:57] Morgaine Dinova: Mealea: idea for new critter?
• [11:57] Paula Scarbridge: whatcha doing in the wather?
• [11:57] Brandon Shinobu: xugu, also the sale properties: sell original, sell copy, sell contents
• [11:58] Brandon Shinobu: llSetSaleProperties(integer sale_type)
• [11:58] Xugu Madison: Brandon, good point. Need to be able to do it on linked prims, too...
• [11:58] Tapple Gao: googles escrow
• [11:58] Brandon Shinobu: or maybe llSetSaleType
• [11:58] Which Linden: Is there a JIRA for those LSL calls?
• [11:58] Xugu Madison: llSetSale(integer link, integer type, integer price) - that's a worrying number of integers in a row, though
• [11:58] Which Linden: Cause you should make one
• [11:58] Which Linden: if none exists
• [11:58] Brandon Shinobu: I'll search which
• [11:58] Mealea Ying: actualy Im making something very much like it only it grows and eats and is editable, but this has a clever combination of parts, like the leaves are flexi
• [11:58] Xugu Madison: Found a Wiki entry, oddly.. [2]
• [11:58] Xugu Madison: was sure I saw a JIRA
• [11:59] Latif Khalifa: not that making JIRA's helps a lot :P
• [11:59] Xugu Madison: There we go
• [11:59] Xugu Madison: [3]
• [11:59] Brandon Shinobu: xugu, can you sell different items from linked prims?
• [11:59] Which Linden: "The described function does not exist. This article is a feature request." <--- wtf
• [11:59] Brandon Shinobu: I thought if you paid an object, it just went to the root
• [11:59] Xugu Madison: Brandon, I know you can do some tricks with the root prim being purchasable only...
• [11:59] Latif Khalifa: standard anwer these days "we (the lindens) are overworked, no resources to implement or qa new lsl features"
• [11:59] Brandon Shinobu: well "went to the root"
• [12:00] Brandon Shinobu: I have a lot of jiras for LSL things I think would be useful, but I don't have one for sale properties.
• [12:00] Xugu Madison: I do this with vendors; they sit on no-trans "display stands", which are linked to them. You can click anywhere to buy, but only get the root's contents
• [12:00] Brandon Shinobu: I like xugu's proposal though.
• [12:00] Which Linden: That is true; we are steadily increasing the amount of QA we do for each feature, but it's still risky and expensive to do stuff
• [12:00] Latif Khalifa: and "omg they (linden management) killed featurretes branch"
• [12:00] Brandon Shinobu: I'm just not sure if being able to set a link's sale properties would be necessary, but he may be right. I haven't looked into that.
• [12:00] Imaze Rhiano: there is [4]
• [12:00] Which Linden: But Snowglobe is kind of the spiritual successor
• [12:01] Which Linden: (of featurettes)
• [12:01] Imaze Rhiano: maybe it would be possible to add SVC-1593 to it?
• [12:01] Xugu Madison: Which, we'd love to see features hitting preview faster even if they then stay there longer for QA....
• [12:01] Brandon Shinobu: Oh! SVC-2885 is one of my jiras!
• [12:01] Xugu Madison: Imaze, it apparently already is!
• [12:01] Imaze Rhiano: doh
• [12:01] Yann Dufaux: i love snowglobe, more stable exepte since the bugs of textures :)
• [12:02] Imaze Rhiano: smacks her head...
• [12:02] Which Linden: Xugu: ah but there's the opposite contingent who doesn't want anything released to the public before it's prefect
• [12:02] Morgaine Dinova: Get and set should be possible for *every* attribute though -- not single out only price.
• [12:02] Which Linden: yeah totally
• [12:03] Which Linden: llSetObjectAttribute(string name, list arguments)
• [12:03] Xugu Madison: Which, okay, we'll track down and kill the people who want stuff out of preview until it's perfect, problem solved :)
• [12:03] Which Linden: actually LSL kinda blows for variable argument lists
• [12:03] Brandon Shinobu: Which, though I like it, I'm not sure that would work.
• [12:03] Brandon Shinobu: yeah, variable lists is the problem.
• [12:03] Which Linden: Yeah I'm sure that what I wrote is wrong in many ways
• [12:03] Xugu Madison: Which, the second half of your sentance was redundant :)
• [12:03] Xugu Madison: (the one about LSL kinda blowing...)
• [12:03] Phantom Ninetails: llSetPrimitiveParams. Hint Hint.
• [12:04] Which Linden: ha ha ha
• [12:04] Brandon Shinobu: we need more and better functions, but I think dedicated functions are necessary too.
• [12:04] Which Linden: One of the things I don't work on is LSL stuff, so while I sympathize there's pretty much 0 chance that I'll ever actually work on any of this, I'm afraid
• [12:04] Brandon Shinobu: I like MISC-39077
• [12:04] Brandon Shinobu: 3077
• [12:04] Brandon Shinobu: why is that Which?
• [12:05] Which Linden: Well, cause someone else works on LSL, not me!
• [12:05] Mealea Ying: also LLsetPrimCenterOfRotation
• [12:05] Phantom Ninetails: So we should bother Andrew and Babbage instead.
• [12:05] Mealea Ying: hahahahahaha!
• [12:05] Xugu Madison: Which, I'm just kinda bombarding Lindens in an attempt to get scripting some more love
• [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Xugu: feature freeze
• [12:06] Which Linden: Sure Xugu, and office hours are an OK place to do that
• [12:06] Mealea Ying: Which keeps us busy while M makes up limits, its a tough job but someone has to do it
• [12:06] Which Linden: Just telling you, in my part, that I ain't implementing it :-)
• [12:06] Brandon Shinobu: yes Mealea :( my sculpts can't llTargetOmega correctly.
• [12:06] Xugu Madison: Which, understood :)
• [12:07] Tapple Gao: so, are the agent stores and the escrow 3 seperate agents/avatars?
• [12:07] Brandon Shinobu: I want to help push for scripting improvements.
• [12:07] Mealea Ying: Brandon, Sculpts asre spehere (Im sorry if you already know this) so its the center of the orignal sphere
• [12:07] Which Linden: Tapple, maybe I should explain that diagram some time
• [12:07] Which Linden: Not today though, I gotta run
• [12:07] Brandon Shinobu: yes I know mealea :) but getting them to operate like one is difficult.
• [12:08] Tapple Gao: ok. have fun
• [12:08] Mealea Ying: hehehe! I bet!
• [12:08] Latif Khalifa: have fun which ;)
• [12:08] Brandon Shinobu: Even if they appear perfectly round, they still rotate off ccenter.
• [12:08] Which Linden: Thanks everyone, enjoyed talking with you
• [12:08] Phantom Ninetails: Fare well, Which
• [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: Which: if we're revisiting escrow some time, perhaps you could bring some demo code :-)
• [12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: alters which
• [12:08] Yann Dufaux: have a nice day Which take car :)
• [12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
• [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Which, take care :-)
• [12:08] Mealea Ying: Thanks Which!
• [12:08] Brandon Shinobu: bye which
• [12:08] Which Linden: l8r!
• [12:08] Xugu Madison: Thanks Which!