User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Mar 26

• [11:03] Morgaine Dinova: We've been taking your name in vain in the Pyogp group, Sai :P
• [11:03] Saijanai Kuhn: well you should
• [11:03] Morgaine Dinova: You need to put your app in SVN :-)
• [11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: blarg so no ENus has group IM working with pyogp
• [11:04] Which Linden: all the cool kids use DVCSs like hg or git nowadays (except for us, sigh)
• [11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Heh Which --- and good morning :-)
• [11:05] Which Linden: Good morning to you!
• [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: good morning. ANd Enus is now talking via python in group IM
• [11:06] Which Linden: Ooh very nice
• [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: and now I have to wrap a gui around it
• [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: I've discovered the joy of pickling, which makes my task for creating preference files and dialogs oh so much easier
• [11:07] Morgaine Dinova: And I'm doing nothing because Sai keeps covering the whole map. Suits me fine :P
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: its the adhd. I can't focus more than 3 sec
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: onds anyway
• [11:08] Gareth Ellison: hi all
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: hey gareth. ENus has group IM working in pyogp now
• [11:08] Which Linden: Hi Gareth!
• [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: In that case let's split the code physically to make development easier.
• [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Gareth!
• [11:09] Gareth Ellison: pyogp is moving up my long long list of stuff to checkout with that comment sai :)
• [11:10] Morgaine Dinova: If you're going to hack on it Gareth, then talk to Enus to give you a login. Even I added a hack, miraculously.
• [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: hey I got a gui working with eventlets finally, so
• [11:10] Which Linden: Boo ya
• [11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Which, got a topic for us?
• [11:10] Gareth Ellison: i think given the pile of stuff on my plate, i might just grab the code and run ;)
• [11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Grabbing the code and running sucks, just end up with more incompatible versions. Although I'll do that too if we can't stay off each other's toes :P
• [11:11] Gareth Ellison: i can haz topic which?
• [11:11] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - didn't say i was going to modify it and make it incompatible :)
• [11:11] Gareth Ellison: i don't modify libcurl to be HTTP incompatible
• [11:11] Morgaine Dinova: More about message queues, Which?
• [11:12] Which Linden: Morgaine: no topic on hand; I blew my wad last week with the wiki page :-)
• [11:12] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
• [11:12] Which Linden: We can continue that discussion if you care to :-)
• [11:12] Lalinda Lovell: which's wad on wiki scandal
• [11:12] Lalinda Lovell: take it to ursula!
• [11:12] Gareth Ellison: i'd comment on that wad thing but it probably violates community standards...
• [11:12] Gareth Ellison: *cough* ahem
• [11:12] Morgaine Dinova: Lalinda, sit down please :-)
• [11:13] Lalinda Lovell: can we talk about the teen grid being merged on 1st may?
• [11:13] Which Linden: Oh yeah, Morgaine, you were gonna get back to me with a possible architecture that would allow infinite scaling of both members-of-groups and groups-per-resident
• [11:13] Which Linden: Lalinda, as far as I can see, the teen grid is not slated for any changes
• [11:14] Morgaine Dinova: I was? How about Hello World instead?
• [11:14] Which Linden: ha ha ha
• [11:14] Lalinda Lovell: rumor is that once ursula is live, teen grid gets merged
• [11:14] Lalinda Lovell: when is ursula live?
• [11:14] Gareth Ellison: i'm pretty sure multicast of all varieties probably has 10 billion different approaches now
• [11:14] Morgaine Dinova: The BoF (which was great) kinda wiped everything else off. /me tries to remember.
• [11:15] Which Linden: Oh, yeah, the BoF! It was great?
• [11:15] Morgaine Dinova: I thought so, yes.
• [11:15] Gareth Ellison: actually.... which - can IP layer multicast be deployed on the LL backend?
• [11:15] Which Linden: Lalinda: wtf is ursula?
• [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Which: [1]
• [11:16] Which Linden: Gareth : not sure
• [11:16] Gareth Ellison: IPv6 multicast with one address per group
• [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: which you little innocent plant
• [11:16] Which Linden: I don't know very much about multicast to be honest
• [11:16] Gareth Ellison: how could you go wrong ;)
• [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: its the giant 250 sex sims being made
• [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: the new continent
• [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: where all mature stuff is being moved
• [11:16] Gareth Ellison: this does presume you have some decent routers in the data center to support it
• [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: imminently
• [11:16] Lalinda Lovell: and you need to be age verified to move there
• [11:17] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: LL's looking at message queue technologies for the backend. Which wrote up a great document on the wiki for it.
• [11:17] Which Linden: ok lalinda, how about we take this discussion to pm
• [11:17] Lalinda Lovell: ooooooo ok ;)
• [11:17] Which Linden: (it'
• [11:17] Which Linden: (it's not technical and I don't want to step on the technical discussion)
• [11:17] Morgaine Dinova: This is a tech OH.
• [11:17] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - got a link?
• [11:17] Lalinda Lovell: correct
• [11:17] Gareth Ellison: linky linky!
• [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: well it does raise the question of level of detail in flexy sculpties...
• [11:18] Which Linden:  :-P
• [11:18] Morgaine Dinova: shouts: [2]
• [11:18] Morgaine Dinova: "Shouts"??? How did that happen?
• [11:18] Gareth Ellison: heh, put it all on amazon SQS :P
• [11:18] Morgaine Dinova: looks mystified at GUI
• [11:19] Gareth Ellison: Why is SMTP listed under "other"?
• [11:19] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - ctrl+enter does that
• [11:19] Which Linden: Shift-Enter == shout I think?
• [11:19] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, just typing too fast for keyboard to keep up then.
• [11:19] Which Linden: Gareth: we actually considered SQS....but it seems to have the wrong characteristics
• [11:20] Gareth Ellison: SQS would be commercial suicide unless you got a special deal arranged
• [11:20] Gareth Ellison: imagine if LL were paying for every single group IM
• [11:20] Gareth Ellison: you couldn't feasibly do that with free users
• [11:21] Which Linden: Ha ha ha, well we do pay for S3 for every viewer download
• [11:21] Gareth Ellison: good point
• [11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Academic anyway, since there's lots of free implementations.
• [11:22] Gareth Ellison: turns off that automated viewer downloader script running on 10 different high-bandwidth connections.... :P
• [11:22] Which Linden: We're paying for it somehow; either by paying for colo space or salaries; just a matter of whether the latency and control characteristics are good enough
• [11:22] Which Linden: Ha ha ha
• [11:23] Which Linden: Apparently it saved us money to switch to S3
• [11:23] Gareth Ellison: i notice that one you've missed off is the simple "dump it to an IP layer multicast solution and do the queueing on end machines"
• [11:23] Morgaine Dinova: I wonder what a single viewer download costs LL in S3 charges, in fractions of a $
• [11:23] Gareth Ellison: in fact, doesn't SCTP support multiple endpoints that receive duplicated messages?
• [11:23] Which Linden: Oh... so, multicast, doesn't that imply that every machine receives every message?
• [11:23] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - go to amazon and check the pricing
• [11:23] Gareth Ellison: which - only subscribing machines
• [11:24] Gareth Ellison: you can join or leave groups
• [11:24] Gareth Ellison: where a group is basically an IP address
• [11:24] Which Linden: Oh so a group would map to a multicast subscription?
• [11:24] Which Linden: I see
• [11:24] Gareth Ellison: there's a range allocated for multicast stuff
• [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: I am intrigued by your informative reply and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
• [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: :P
• [11:24] Gareth Ellison: IPv4 is tight to get allocations for
• [11:24] Gareth Ellison: IPv6 - basically free
• [11:25] Gareth Ellison: i don't know if the private multicast IPv4 ranges would have enough address space for this
• [11:25] Which Linden: That is an intruiging idea to be sure
• [11:25] Gareth Ellison: yeah
• [11:25] Which Linden: Isn't using multicast just pushing the problem off to the multicast routers though
• [11:26] Gareth Ellison: which - you mean the hardware devices designed for doing this stuff well?
• [11:26] Which Linden: Yeah
• [11:26] Gareth Ellison: kinda like "isn't that pushing the problem of rendering to GPUs though?"
• [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: We're talking about reliable multicast here, right? Ie. with all the machinery of getting packets that were missed.
• [11:28] Gareth Ellison: yeah, don't worry - i wasn't going to mention UDP
• [11:28] Which Linden: Well sure, but, I posited last week that the problem is inherently quite difficult to design scalable solutions for, unlike graphics cards which are basically just hardware implementations of standard algorithms
• [11:28] Gareth Ellison: which - it just seems kinda logical that IP layer multicast might be more efficient
• [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: So, which reliable multicast standard are we talking about? RFC?
• [11:28] Gareth Ellison: since anything else is just putting more layers on top
• [11:29] Which Linden: Like, and again I should mention that I know *nothing* about ipv6 multicast -- how do the routers keep track of subscribers that are not directly connected to them?
• [11:29] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - i have heard about TCP over multicast
• [11:29] Morgaine Dinova: RFC?
• [11:29] Gareth Ellison: which - they aggregrate the downstream subscribers
• [11:29] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - let me find it
• [11:29] Morgaine Dinova: No RFC, no go. We're not going to invent a new network layer standard.
• [11:30] Gareth Ellison: turns out there's more work in this area then i thought - [3]
• [11:30] Gareth Ellison: but let me find the specific RFC i'm thinking of
• [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Remember that this has to work for independent worlds too. Something that works only with special equipment won't wash.
• [11:31] Which Linden: Mmm....yes, but, maybe we could set up gateways or something
• [11:31] Which Linden: I'd have to understand more about it
• [11:31] Which Linden: But, definitely agreed, interoperability is another hurdle
• [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, each world provider would need to do the multicast to all the users in each of its zones. That applies to third-party worlds too, hence the need for a public standard.
• [11:32] Gareth Ellison: not an RFC, an IEEE standard
• [11:32] Which Linden: Nearly every link on that page results in a 550, Gareth :-(
• [11:32] Gareth Ellison: RMTP
• [11:32] Gareth Ellison: Reliable Multicast Transfer Protocol
• [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: That definitely has the right words in its title :P
• [11:32] Which Linden: So RMTP is the multicast equivalent of TCP?
• [11:32] Gareth Ellison: [4]
• [11:32] Gareth Ellison: seems like it's still rather academic
• [11:33] Gareth Ellison: so, not as good as i was thinking
• [11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe they're working on an RFC
• [11:33] Gareth Ellison: the mbone is rather academic these days too - don't even know if it's really got any nodes left
• [11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Too late for Mbone. Standards that don't make it after decades of trying aren't blessed.
• [11:34] Gareth Ellison: i once tried to social engineer myself a tunnel on it by claiming i was studying networking at uni (i was, but my tutor didn't even know about mbone)
• [11:34] Which Linden: Heh one could even say that IPv6 itself has got a bit of a lab coat as well
• [11:34] Gareth Ellison: IPv6 is here though
• [11:34] Gareth Ellison: as in, it WILL work on your backend
• [11:34] Which Linden: It's true; a very small lab coat that looks like a leather jacket
• [11:34] Gareth Ellison: and there's reliable production-quality code and hardware devices for it
• [11:35] Morgaine Dinova: It's a concern, IPv6. However, there is nothing else, so it will happen. (I think, lol)
• [11:35] Gareth Ellison: all my boxes at home have IPv6 on my local LAN which i didn't even configure
• [11:35] Which Linden: Yeah I really hope that we don't go into a hell of NATs even more so than we already are
• [11:35] Gareth Ellison: the link-local address and autoconf
• [11:36] Gareth Ellison: every now and then i throw up a tunnel to get to the public internet over IPv6, and find..... not much of value that doesn't talk IPv4
• [11:36] Morgaine Dinova: I think there might be a good case for making VW interop IPv6-only, purely from the PoV of object addressing.
• [11:36] Which Linden: My macbook has an ipv6 address; apple's been good about that
• [11:36] Which Linden: Morgaine: wouldn't that be too much of a detail?
• [11:36] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - i do like the idea of assigning IPv6 addresses to groups and objects
• [11:36] Which Linden: It seems that dictating a url per object or whatever is a much more uniform access strategy
• [11:37] Gareth Ellison: the claim i've heard for IPv6 is that it's enough to assign an address to at least every single molecule on earth
• [11:37] Which Linden: and if that url happens to have only an ipv6 resolution, so be it
• [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Which: Yes, it's a "detail", but a detail that would open up a billion possibilities that cannot be encompassed when IPv4 is the infrastructure.
• [11:37] Gareth Ellison: which - why URLs?
• [11:38] Gareth Ellison: i always thought oddly enough that UUIDs look suspicously like IPv6 addresses when written down without the - character
• [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Just the fact alone that every object in every world would be addressible with zero network overhead would be .... mind blowing.
• [11:39] Which Linden: Well an url is pretty uniform and doesn't make many assumptions about underlying technologies
• [11:39] Gareth Ellison: which - it's also overkill for some tasks
• [11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: maybe we should knock up some IPv6-only worlds, and see where it goes :-)
• [11:39] Gareth Ellison: an IPv6 address need not be tied to the physical network topology
• [11:40] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - heh, if i wanted to do something weird in that regard the closest is to ponder building a virtual world available only over TOR
• [11:40] Which Linden: OK, but, I mean, urls are kind of a superset of ipv6 addresses so it doesn't seem to be shutting any doors to choose urls over bare addresses, but it opens many more
• [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: TOR is too slow
• [11:40] Gareth Ellison: ok, anonet
• [11:40] Gareth Ellison: anonet is fairly smooth actually - very little lag
• [11:41] Gareth Ellison: which - you'd have a point if it wasn't for the size of URLs and the complexities involved with saying "what protocol is that? which DNS server am i talking to to resolve it? great, now i send a path to that other server, ok, great"
• [11:41] Gareth Ellison: rather than me for example just sending one packet to one of my oranges and telling it to bounce
• [11:42] Which Linden: How about if I said "URI" instead of "URL"?
• [11:43] Gareth Ellison: which - i'd like to argue that resolving URIs is all done above the IP stuff, therefore IP is a superset, not vice-versa
• [11:43] Which Linden: Basically I don't see how using urls precludes your scenario of "just sending a packet to one of my oranges"
• [11:44] Which Linden: I mean your url would just be orange://ffee::3827/
• [11:44] Gareth Ellison: because i then need to resolve the hostname orange.beaumont.agni.lindenlab.com or whatever
• [11:44] Gareth Ellison: ah
• [11:44] Which Linden: urls don't require hostnames
• [11:44] Gareth Ellison: i get you now
• [11:44] Morgaine Dinova: Remember that URIs and all of web technology is just a means of factoring out different services while still using a common protocol. It's not inherent to VWs, and once you've obtained access to a resource, nobody says that you have to keep talking Webonese.
• [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: It's one of the things that it's hard to get across to webbies. The update link doesn't need to talk HTML.
• [11:45] Which Linden: urls aren't really tid to http either
• [11:45] Gareth Ellison: heh, i struggled to explain the concept of a long poll to a flash developer a while back
• [11:46] Gareth Ellison: "but surely you need to hack apache to do that?"
• [11:46] Morgaine Dinova: Well, it's hard to explain anything to a flash developer, other than flash :P
• [11:46] Gareth Ellison: he really couldn't get "you just sleep until an event of interest comes in and dump it to the HTTP client"
• [11:46] Which Linden: Ha, well, AS3 has its own shit for that, so I can see how one might find it hard to think outside the sandbox
• [11:47] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - guy's pretty smart actually, he coded his own realtime renderer in flash using a mix of ActionScript and C
• [11:47] Gareth Ellison: though he did make me WTF quite a bit when he had a music app that did mixing server-side, uploading samples from flash to a small C++ app that mixes them and sends them back out
• [11:48] Gareth Ellison: anyway....
• [11:48] Morgaine Dinova: Nobody's really smart in this area (including me of course). I call this the Dark Ages of Computing, in which everyone does everything without it interoperating with anything else.
• [11:49] Which Linden: I'm sure that in 2050 we will indeed look back upon this time with amusement
• [11:49] Gareth Ellison: the basic "use HTTP to setup a connection and then once it's opened the socket, club the HTTP handling code over the head and waltz in with arbitary protocol of choice" thing is great
• [11:49] Morgaine Dinova: And pain
• [11:49] Gareth Ellison: that's true of every generation
• [11:50] Lalinda Lovell: and with thick glasses
• [11:50] Gareth Ellison: i still can't believe people used to code stuff by doing it all on ticker tape with little tiny pinholes
• [11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: been there
• [11:51] Saijanai Kuhn: though actually I never had to do the coding, just the threading of the ticker tape
• [11:51] Morgaine Dinova: That was actually good training, reading code by holding paper tape up to the light :P
• [11:51] Which Linden: I had a job where I had to find and rack magnetic tapes, while we're being hoary
• [11:51] Gareth Ellison: decades from now it'll be "what? you had to actually tell your computers individual steps?" while everyone just asks "hey computer, calculate X for me, thanks"
• [11:52] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - heh, closest to that i have is writing stuff with a hex editor on my father's DOS PC
• [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: Arg, I hate tape. Used to be in charge of backups for an ISP, urgh. Horrid days.
• [11:52] Gareth Ellison: and even then it was with a reference next to me
• [11:52] Saijanai Kuhn: once ran 6 tape drives simultaneously with 3 diofferent apps asking for tapesw with different ID#'s but the same name. Scary days
• [11:52] Gareth Ellison: and tons of random crashes
• [11:53] Gareth Ellison: "when i was your age we just had 1s and 0s, and sometimes we didn't even have the 1s!"
• [11:53] Lalinda Lovell: i remeber we had to use an abacus during the war
• [11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Talking of backups, I lost a backup drive yesterday, it never recovered from going offline and cooling down.
• [11:53] Which Linden: Actually my gf's parents apparently used abacuses for their business until recently
• [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: bah, they wouldn't even let me TOUCH the backup drive
• [11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Hate backups.
• [11:54] Which Linden: Time Machine has worked well for me
• [11:54] Lalinda Lovell: is their businesses selling abacuses?
• [11:54] Saijanai Kuhn: literally above my paygrade
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: talking about backups, i have to sort mine out
• [11:54] Which Linden: Ha ha, no, but I guess they were just used to slidin' beads
• [11:54] Lalinda Lovell: omg you have a time machine???
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: had a powercut the other day
• [11:54] Morgaine Dinova: rsnapshot FTW
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: when power came back, it fried my UPS
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: the battery inside was leaking fluid
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: and the case was cracked
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: scary
• [11:54] Gareth Ellison: i replaced the battery with one from my big cupboard full of spare lead acid batteries
• [11:54] Which Linden: Fuck yeah morgaine, been looking for something like that for my linux box
• [11:55] Gareth Ellison: still didn't work
• [11:55] Lalinda Lovell: giggles at the f word
• [11:55] Gareth Ellison: so i had to go out to the shop and purchase a new one
• [11:55] Gareth Ellison: :O linden profanity!
• [11:55] Which Linden: Sorry, these are "Mature" office hours :-)
• [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: The f-word is very relevant in any sentence involving backups.
• [11:55] Lalinda Lovell: fuck hell damn yes!
• [11:55] Gareth Ellison: reports which directly to fucking M linden himself, bitches
• [11:55] Morgaine Dinova:  :-)
• [11:56] Lalinda Lovell: i havent seen M linden yet
• [11:56] Lalinda Lovell: he used to be in my group in his previous incarnation
• [11:56] Gareth Ellison: "i was traumatised by your employees blatant use of profanity, i demand it stop!" < said while listening to nine inch nails singing "i want to fuck you like an animal"
• [11:56] Lalinda Lovell: which you need to get an office on Ursula FTW
• [11:57] Morgaine Dinova: I think one of the secrets to backups that actually let you *read data back* (a miracle) when it's needed is cooling. Hot disks == dead disks when you need the data.
• [11:57] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - or storing offsite
• [11:57] Which Linden: Totally. .. simson garfinkel had a great essay on hot disks somewhere
• [11:57] Gareth Ellison: my "offsite" backup is the closet
• [11:57] Gareth Ellison: every few months (yeah, i know) i burn off some DVDs and dump stuff to USB disks and shove it in the closet
• [11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Occasional offsite, sure, but can't afford it regular. High bandwidth backups need to be local.
• [11:59] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - not even "in the closet" offsite?
• [11:59] Gareth Ellison: i think "offline" is more relevant as concerns drive failure
• [11:59] Which Linden: So, before I go: thanks for the pointers to multicast Gareth -- if you come across any links that are of more out-of-the-box solution I'd love to see them
• [12:00] Gareth Ellison: cisco
• [12:00] Lalinda Lovell: which, how can i change my username?
• [12:00] Gareth Ellison: you plug one of their newer routers in
• [12:00] Gareth Ellison: straight out of the box
• [12:00] Gareth Ellison: IPv6 multicast
• [12:00] Which Linden: lalinda: your sl username is not changeable unfortunately
• [12:00] Lalinda Lovell: we had a survey of premium customers and it gave that as an option as a new feature
• [12:00] Gareth Ellison: once you have the join/leave group stuff, you just dump packets to the multicast address
• [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: [5] --- for those still looking for a trivially easy but effective backup system for Unix-type machinery, do yourselves a favour and grab this :-)
• [12:00] Which Linden: Gareth: yeah, but I mean, chat systems implemented over multicast
• [12:00] Lalinda Lovell: so it must be possible
• [12:00] Gareth Ellison: which - how denormalised are the databases?
• [12:01] Lalinda Lovell: i mean technically it must be
• [12:01] Which Linden: Lalinda: it's possible, but it would require engineering effort
• [12:01] Lalinda Lovell: i dont mind paying for it
• [12:01] Lalinda Lovell: tip ya 50 L ;)
• [12:01] Gareth Ellison: because i get the impression that it's fairly denormalised
• [12:01] Which Linden: Gareth: not very, actually, but, usernames are cached for a very long time all over the system
• [12:01] Gareth Ellison: like, every asset has a string field with names in it
• [12:01] Lalinda Lovell: IMVU sells a change of username
• [12:01] Lalinda Lovell: for 20 dollars USD
• [12:01] Gareth Ellison: i have bad information on the internals of your DB?
• [12:01] Gareth Ellison:  :(
• [12:02] Which Linden: Well db != assets
• [12:02] Which Linden: I'm sure that our system overall is pretty denormalized
• [12:02] Which Linden: Sorry if I interpreted your question too narrowly
• [12:02] Gareth Ellison: which - you don't keep the metadata in MySQL with the asset data in a huge-ass storage cluster?
• [12:02] Gareth Ellison: since that'd make quite a bit of sense
• [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: I don't want a change of username, this is my professional working name now. But I do want to upgrade to a Basic account, because it safeguards your identity and access to the world. Premium is dangerous.
• [12:03] Which Linden: Yeah we do, but if the assset contains names (and I don't know if they do or not), then that asset would be in the storage cluster and not in the db
• [12:03] Which Linden: I assume we use agent ids wherever possible though
• [12:03] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - how is basic more secure for your personal info?
• [12:04] Lalinda Lovell: hey sai simspons episode on steve jobs
• [12:04] Gareth Ellison: see "pirates of silicon valley" on that one....
• [12:05] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: your online life cannot be terminated by LL on a Basic account purely for financial or accounting reasons.
• [12:05] Morgaine Dinova: Premium users are regularly "murdered" in a world, just because their RL accounts are not in order.
• [12:05] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - they delete premium accounts completely instead of downgrading them for failure to pay?
• [12:06] Gareth Ellison: which - kick your boss for me on that one
• [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, you have no more access to the world, so your identity is killed.
• [12:06] Which Linden: Yeah that seems to be nonoptimal.
• [12:06] Which Linden: But I am pretty sure you can "downgrade" to basic
• [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Upgrade it is, currently :-)
• [12:07] Morgaine Dinova: I would like Premium to be better, don't mind paying. But if ceasing to pay causes virtual world, then it's far far far worse than Basic, and non-viable.
• [12:07] Which Linden: Heh, well, I should gtfo, thanks for a rollicking discussion all!
• [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: causes virtual world *dead*
• [12:08] Lalinda Lovell: love you which
• [12:08] Gareth Ellison: yeah, this was one of the more entertaining office hours
• [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: ARGGG. *death*
• [12:08] Which Linden: I accidentally your whole virtual world
• [12:08] Lalinda Lovell: dont tell your gf i said that
• [12:08] Which Linden:  :-P
• [12:08] Gareth Ellison: gives morgaine some piracetam and a better keyboard
• [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: Which --- very broad discussion today, but good :-) Thanks!
• [12:08] Which Linden: Have a great one!