User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Apr 10

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:09] Jarod Godel: Hi, Zha.
[13:09] Zha Ewry: Hey Jarod.
[13:10] Zero Linden: Okay - welcome all - (starting now!)
[13:10] Zha Ewry: I had to walk..
[13:10] Zero Linden: Reminder - this transcript - if it survives - will be published in the wiki
[13:10] Zero Linden: Things are looking bumpy on the grid
[13:11] Zero Linden: I've got the internal operations IRC channel on my screen
[13:11] Zero Linden: I'll be sure to relay the juicy bits!
[13:11] Sheet Spotter: Allo, allo!
[13:11] Jarod Godel: hi
[13:11] Jarod Godel: Internal... Ooooh.
[13:11] Zha Ewry: well. TP was down. My prims wouldnt rez.. so I had to chose a different outfit..
[13:11] Zero Linden: Welcome all to my office hours
[13:11] Khamon Fate: well yeah, there are 36k people logged in
[13:11] Zha Ewry: The girds grouchy
[13:11] Khamon Fate: the grid doesn't scale to that many users at a time
[13:12] Zero Linden: I was going to say that it was a more casual outfit than normal, Zha
[13:12] Jarod Godel: I wonder if it has anything to do with SL being on the cover of DDJ.
[13:12] Khamon Fate: no, it's a pretty standard peak number these days
[13:12] Jarod Godel: ah.
[13:12] Sifu Moraga: Hi all, Still waiting for my cache to load.
[13:13] Sheet Spotter: I think the grid is healing...Map search came back just as I got here.
[13:13] Zero Linden: Dr. Dobbs? Really!
[13:13] Zero Linden: Oh - I have such a sweet spot in my heart for DDJ
[13:13] Khamon Fate: It will heal as people log out Sheet.
[13:13] Sifu Moraga: :-) brings back memories
[13:13] Jarod Godel: I haven't opened the baggy yet, but the cover says "Get yourself a (second) Life."
[13:13] Jarod Godel: I assumed there was only one SL.\
[13:13] Khamon Fate: The Lindens will claim to have "resolved" the issues.
[13:13] Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
[13:14] Zero Linden: I remember when it was named "Dr. Dobb's Journal of Computer Calesthenics and Orthodonture: Running Light without Overbyte."
[13:14] Zha Ewry smiles.. thinking back to when DDJ arrived and was eagerly read.
[13:14] Sifu Moraga: Now all I've got is SIGOPS and SACMAT to look forwards to
[13:14] Zero Linden: That was the full title, and it was printed on newsprint with a white paper cover
[13:14] Jarod Godel: Is DDJ kind of passe these days?
[13:15] Khamon Fate: Tell him yes. Jarod's only happy when he's being passe.
[13:15] Zha Ewry: Well.. it's ink smashed on dead trees....
[13:15] Jarod Godel: ah. ok.
[13:15] Zero Linden: Well- these day's you don't really need a journal to publish the entire assembly language source to a basic interpreter, do you....
[13:15] Khamon Fate: Do you know that many people honestly don't know that paper mills grow their own trees.
[13:16] Khamon Fate: People really believe that IP cuts down rainforests to make toilet paper and all.
[13:16] Zero Linden has visions of the Python interpreter source printed out 4 up, intersperced with ads.
[13:16] onethousend Nishi: hi all
[13:16] Zha Ewry recalls forth.. in that vein.
[13:16] Jarod Godel: I was afraid there was some other magazine I was missing, but if we're just talking about "digital vs. print," I don't feel passe'd by the wayside. :)
[13:16] Khamon Fate: You're so fringe.
[13:17] Zero Linden: Well the word from ops is that the find database "fell over" - which is technical talk for "stopped working for no clear reason"
[13:17] Zero Linden: They've switched find over to a replicant of the db, and it is running again
[13:17] Jarod Godel: w00t
[13:17] onethousend Nishi: hi baby
[13:18] Zero Linden: Now people are trying to log in again and load on the login machines are like at about 74 (!)
[13:18] onethousend Nishi: i love a blonde women
[13:18] Jarod Godel has an odd image of a new Linden looking at the database: "What does 'Error: Tilt!' mean?"
[13:19] Zero Linden: ah - good - my group activation worked
[13:19] Khamon Fate: I claim to've resolved things all the time. Just yesterday we "fixed" someone's voice mail account by waiting for it time out so their new password would work.
[13:19] Zero Linden: things are a bit better...
[13:19] Khamon Fate: Of course we threw some flour on our face first.
[13:19] Jarod Godel: I tell people they need a new computer. That seems to always make them happy.
[13:20] Khamon Fate: I'm still not getting group info.
[13:20] Khamon Fate: Poor Khamon.
[13:20] Zero Linden: Sigh....
[13:20] Jarod Godel: You may have to re-log.
[13:20] Sheet Spotter: Zero...Not sure if there are any rules here. May I ask two questions in IM?
[13:20] Khamon Fate: Well we do have chat. Tell us about tomorrow's nonupdate.
[13:20] Jarod Godel: I don't have my Lindens$ showing, but until we get that Refresh Button....
[13:20] Zero Linden: Well - here's the deal, Sheet
[13:21] Khamon Fate: I took all your lindens Jarod.
[13:21] Khamon Fate: ha ha ha ha ha
[13:21] Zero Linden: This hour is devoted to discussing the technical architecture of SL .... we bring up topics, and I try to keep us from dwelling in rat holes for too long
[13:21] Khamon Fate: I copybotted them and donated it all to the Electric Sheep Company
[13:21] Zero Linden: So, if there is a topic you want to discuss, just lets all know
[13:22] Khamon Fate suggests tomorrow's nonupdate for starters.
[13:22] Sheet Spotter: I didn't want to offend any sensibilities.
[13:22] Khamon Fate: Oh Sheet we're wholly insensible if anything.
[13:22] Hiro Market: apologies, tp broke
[13:22] Khamon Fate: Did I type that out loud?
[13:23] Zero Linden: Don't mind Khamon - as his group title says, he's Plantlife!
[13:23] Khamon Fate: Feed Me
[13:24] Khamon Fate: Seriously though, do you know why the update's delayed? Did something not work or is something else being added? Has it postponed the Day of Liberation?
[13:24] Multi Gadget v1.51.0 by Timeless Prototype
[13:24] Sheet Spotter: I am a C++ developer in RL...We had huge performance issues when we were inserting records into a database that used a random GUID as the key. SL seems to use a random GUID as a key for all inventory. Has anyone tried a non-random GUID as the key?
[13:24] Sheet Spotter: (Sorry about the novel.)
[13:24] Zero Linden: The update got delayed as the resulting merge of six or seven projects, all of which had cleared QA individually
[13:25] Zero Linden: has caused there to be about 12 "bad" issues identified
[13:25] Sifu Moraga 's client crashed :-(
[13:25] Zero Linden: The good news is that as of this morning, 8 of those were already fixed and checked in too...
[13:25] Zero Linden: ...but that's too close to "post time" to do an update tomorrow
[13:25] Zha Ewry winces... at that many open issues
[13:26] Zero Linden: So- we're delaying
[13:26] Zero Linden: As for the day of liberation, we are still targeting the end of this month
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Hey Wyn
[13:26] Zero Linden: Though I'm not sure now if that will be April 25th, or May 1st
[13:26] Khamon Fate claps for the Day of Liberation
[13:26] Zero Linden: Personaly, I like May 1st for all it's symbolic connotations
[13:26] Zero Linden: but April 25th is quite doable
[13:27] Zero Linden: Sheet - Indeed, there is overhead in using 16 byte / 36 character UUIDs for most keys
[13:27] Zero Linden: rather than a INT(11) autoincrement column
[13:27] Wyn Galbraith nods to Zha, "heya."
[13:27] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
[13:27] Sheet Spotter: The problem we saw was with the randomness. If the UUID was sequential, performance increased dramatically; fewer table splits.
[13:28] Rex Cronon: had a hard time to tp here
[13:28] Zero Linden: But we rely very heavily on the properties of UUIDs - in that they don't require centralized control to dole them out
[13:28] Zero Linden: So while the inserts might be cheeper
[13:28] Zero Linden: The coordination between many processes on different computers might make things more expensive
[13:28] Zero Linden: For example,
[13:29] Zero Linden: When it comes to inventory - while you're uploading inventory in one place on the grid
[13:29] Zero Linden: Someone else could be dropping inventory on you
[13:29] Zero Linden: But those two operations can happen on different computers... even in different states (geo.)
[13:29] Sheet Spotter: Ouch.
[13:30] Rex Cronon: can't there be something like a flag on server that allows inventory manipulation?
[13:30] Zero Linden: So, right now, they can proceed just picking random UUIDs and only hit your inventory db at the very end to add teh record
[13:30] Zero Linden: Rex, well, that is part of the future scaling work of the Agent Domain
[13:30] Sheet Spotter: Cool...ty
[13:31] Zero Linden: It will put all the inventory work behind a server for a chunk of agents
[13:31] Khamon Fate: Zero, flexible objects don't render properly in 1.14 after being moved and/or resized by llSetPrimitiveParams(). I've filed it on the public jira and linked it to a similar issue but it's not been assigned to anyone yet. How can i make enough noise to get some attention for it?
[13:31] Zero Linden: that way all gets funneled into one place and we don't have the issues of every region needing to be able to manipulate every inventory server directly
[13:32] Zero Linden: Of course, it does add messaging overhead - but that is cheeper than DB contention
[13:32] Zero Linden: Khamon - don't know right now
[13:32] Khamon Fate: Sorry, I meant to hold that til you breathed.
[13:32] Zero Linden: but flexi not working after llSetPrim.Parmas() has gotta be hurting lots of folks
[13:32] Zero Linden: It's okay- I've gotten quite good at handling multiple chat streams now!
[13:33] Khamon Fate: The calcs are correct so the items pop into shape when edited, but the viewer misrepresents them initially.
[13:33] Khamon Fate: I'm getting loads of IMs about the trees doing that.
[13:33] Zha Ewry: Hey.. Zero... In the queue... of things to talk about.. We got to talkign after last week's discussion and wold love LSL access to a simple
[13:33] Zero Linden: Khamon - I see the issue internally now.... voting for it...
[13:34] Zero Linden: SVC-38, right?
[13:34] Zha Ewry: set of UI parts TCL/TK came to mind ad an exemplar)
[13:34] Khamon Fate: Thank you thank you, if it exists internally, I'll ask Torley to link it to our jira
[13:34] Zero Linden: Ah yes, scriptable UI....
[13:35] Zero Linden: Well, this item has come up now and again internally
[13:35] Khamon Fate: VWR-380 is the one I filed
[13:35] Zero Linden: There are several approachs that have been discussed
[13:35] Rex Cronon: u can already make changes to UI, edit the xml files
[13:36] Rex Cronon: oh scriptable, ok
[13:36] Zero Linden: okay - here comes a list off the top of my head
[13:36] Zha Ewry: What i want.. is to get at some basic UI widgets... in LSL.. so I can get out of the constant 1-8 nested scripts
[13:36] Khamon Fate: tcl-like
[13:36] Zha Ewry: with the one truw blue dialog box
[13:37] Zha Ewry: *true
[13:37] Khamon Fate: ha ha Zha doesn't like the blue
[13:37] Zero Linden: 1) Just enhance prims enough (xy location of touch, text input, etc...) so that you can build UI out of 3D prims
[13:37] Khamon Fate screams
[13:37] Zero Linden: 2) Just put HTML on a prim (with some form of events back to the script when clicking or submitting?!?!)
[13:37] Zero Linden: 3) Just put Flash on the prim (ditto)
[13:38] Zero Linden: 4) Just put HTML on a 2D viewer (with events back to the script?!?)
[13:38] Zero Linden: 5) Enhance the XML fo the 2D UI with scripting, and let people at that
[13:38] Zero Linden: Of course, #5 is quite a bit different than the others
[13:38] Rex Cronon: all of the above:)
[13:39] Zero Linden: And really, the devil is in "how does it interact with the script"
[13:39] Zha Ewry blinks @ 5
[13:39] Khamon Fate blinks too
[13:39] Khamon Fate: Isn't that local
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith would rather they be green... the menus.
[13:39] Sheet Spotter passes the eye drops around
[13:39] Zero Linden: Personally - I'm most intrigued by #1, (assuming external image on a prim, xy location reporting, and text entry of some sort) --
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith is trying to keep her head from spinning.
[13:39] Zero Linden: -- but that really demands people create a new language of UI ofr a virutal world
[13:40] Zha Ewry notes the common thread... here is that link into LSL for events
[13:40] Zero Linden: which to a degree they already have (think triangle buttons on vendors, think pose balls,)
[13:40] Khamon Fate: Yeah that is the hard part if this isn't written into LSL
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith: Now we'd have up, down, sideways and in and out UI.
[13:40] Khamon Fate: And Babbage *did* say that there would be not more work done to expand the capabilities of LSL.
[13:41] Zero Linden: So yes, notice that #5 is indeed local, and very different, and would take quite a bit of everyone's effort to make interact with objects in world
[13:41] Khamon Fate: So what is concensus in the office, or at least popular opinion of how, or whether or not, this should be implemented?
[13:41] Rex Cronon: what i would like to be able to do, is to shaow a dialog box to users
[13:41] Zero Linden: and I'm gathering that no, you aren't really interested in little viewer side add ons
[13:41] Rex Cronon: show*
[13:41] Zero Linden: you really want to build UI for things in world
[13:41] Khamon Fate: yes please
[13:42] Khamon Fate: i mean right, no, and yes please
[13:42] Khamon Fate faints
[13:42] Zha Ewry nods... agreeing with Khamon
[13:42] Zero Linden: Well - #5 is tractable: we have an XML UI system, developed for internationalization, and exposing how we hook it all up to functions is possible,
[13:42] Zero Linden: but, like all of you, I don't see that as very interesting
[13:43] Zero Linden: The others have various pros and cons, and people looking at different approaches
[13:43] Zero Linden: In the end, it sort of matters what people want to do
[13:43] Zero Linden: (can you all smell me heading to the use case plea again?)
[13:43] Zha Ewry thinks for 5, you'd have to get the XML stuff to client side.. which is.. interesting
[13:43] Wyn Galbraith: Making a prim face into a touchpanel has interesting possiblities.
[13:43] Rex Cronon: why don't u ask everybody in SL to vote on what the like/want/need?
[13:44] Zha Ewry nods.. You need to hang a banner here, Zero saying "Zero <3 usecases"
[13:44] Rex Cronon: they*
[13:44] Zero Linden: I don't think anyone in engineering relishes the thought of incorporating "Yet-Another-UI-Toolkit" into the system
[13:44] Hiro Market: I have a hud constructed with as near a friendly ui as we could get - 30 prims - works well mostly except under bad weather
[13:44] Khamon Fate: Because, Rex, we have no way to effectively poll the residents
[13:44] Hiro Market: when lag really kills
[13:44] Zero Linden: and giving LSL access to it, and makeing sure it ahs all the security issues delt with
[13:44] Rex Cronon: yes there is
[13:44] Rex Cronon: on the main blog
[13:44] Hiro Market: so any way of compositing onto a single prim with xy touch would help a lot
[13:45] Zero Linden: Rex - polling is difficult for several reasons
[13:45] Khamon Fate: Robin will have to tell us how many unique IPs visit the blog each week. I doubt it's much percentage of the population.
[13:46] Zero Linden: first off, the vast majority of the SL residents, while casual builders, aren't really thinking about advanced uses like building UI systems
[13:46] Khamon Fate: One reason, y'all never built a login polling mechanism into the client.
[13:46] Zero Linden: Secondly, there are a helluva a lot of residents!
[13:46] Rex Cronon: lots of builders start learning scripting
[13:46] Wyn Galbraith: But how many really care about this stuff?
[13:46] Zero Linden: True -
[13:46] Wyn Galbraith is a builder learning scripting ;)
[13:47] Rex Cronon: if u don't ask them how can u know wyn?
[13:47] Khamon Fate: So, no method for coding anything other than the blue dialog box coming down the pike. That's too bad.
[13:47] Zero Linden: so, to a degree, consider yourselves annointed: you are all willing and able to expend some time talking with me - and adding your voices to the wiki
[13:47] Wyn Galbraith: No harm in asking.
[13:47] Zero Linden: and so, we listen
[13:47] Khamon Fate: yes use cases, will post
[13:47] Zero Linden: excellent!
[13:47] Zha Ewry suspects that a lot of scripters (serious ones) would love it. Doing tons of UI work via either /99 or the dialog box, or a HUD makes the bar for stuff much higher
[13:48] Zero Linden: As I said, I think exploring what UI means in a shared 3D space sounds fascinating (if I only had time....)
[13:48] Zero Linden: And simply pulling 2D UI forms onto prim faces seems less so.....
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith thinks it's fascinating too. "It's a whole new world".
[13:48] Zero Linden: Though I understand how it could easily make many things easier to use
[13:48] Zha Ewry wnats.. long term, 3d objects building bits so she can have her RL artifacts into SL for collab
[13:48] Khamon Fate: Well you know just some basic colour choices and button-arranging ability would help.
[13:49] Zero Linden: Believe me I know - I'm building a sandbox managment system - and it's all blue-dialog-itis
[13:49] Zha Ewry hates when the SL chat is used to disucss an external app, which can't be seen in SL
[13:49] Khamon Fate: You sound like Jarod now. He wants to treat his parcel like a desktop Croquet style.
[13:49] Zero Linden: Zha - now that Lindens work in SL (my group is in SL all day long!) with voice
[13:50] Zero Linden: we really really really want to ahve SubEthaEdit (or some such) an a whiteboard in world
[13:50] Khamon Fate: That has to be a good thing all around Zero, to have y'all working inworld.
[13:50] Zha Ewry nods
[13:50] Zero Linden: Yes - so I don't know if it has been discussed anywhere
[13:50] Zero Linden: but you might be all interested to know
[13:50] Wyn Galbraith: That's a great idea.
[13:50] Zero Linden: that while having an internal discussion about will all Linden offices be equal, or will SF always be the headquarters
[13:50] Rex Cronon: like a blackboard where people can draw on?
[13:51] Zha Ewry wants any tool she uses on her 2d desktop.. in world... eventiually. so she can standaournd and point at them
[13:51] Zero Linden: Philip realized that weshould just make SL be HQ for Linden Lab
[13:51] Khamon Fate: Philip who?
[13:51] Wyn Galbraith: That actually fits SL doesn't it?
[13:51] Zero Linden: So we have four private sims - and every Linden and every group has land there (very organically set up - all just squatting!)
[13:51] Zha Ewry murmers "rosedale"
[13:51] Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
[13:51] Zero Linden: Philip Linden - the CEO of Linden Lab....
[13:52] Zero Linden: (really - I now often run into residents who don't realize that anyone with "Linden" for a last name works for the company....)
[13:52] Zha Ewry blinks..
[13:52] Zero Linden: And we have it voice enabled....
[13:52] Wyn Galbraith: That's like the first thing I learned.
[13:53] Zero Linden: So now, my team, located in three locations on two continents, meets all up on the same parcel in SL
[13:53] Khamon Fate: Haney was the first Linden I ever met. I thought I'd gone to Digital Heaven.
[13:53] Jarod Godel: Then you learned it was the other place.
[13:53] Zero Linden: It is working quite well, and we are all clammoring for more collaborative tools
[13:53] Wyn Galbraith: I had to come here, to Pathfinder's office to meet a Linden.
[13:54] Sheet Spotter: Which office brings the donuts?
[13:54] Zero Linden: Indeed - donuts may be a casualty..... sniff.....
[13:55] Wyn Galbraith: Viritual donuts are not quite the same, but a torus would make a fine one.
[13:55] Khamon Fate: It's always confused me that SL was billed from the beginning as a compelling collaborative tool, yet group tools and script interfaces and such collaborative aspects have always been put on the back burners.
[13:55] Zero Linden: oh dear - there is swearing in the operations IRC channel.....
[13:55] Zero Linden: everybody hold on!
[13:55] Wyn Galbraith: uhoh
[13:55] Khamon Fate: Wouldn't you just love to sit on that channel
[13:55] Wyn Galbraith: Yes.
[13:55] Khamon Fate: wonder if we can
[13:55] Zha Ewry: So.. ah.. Where are the seatbelts on these chiars, Zero?
[13:55] Wyn Galbraith: They use IRC?
[13:56] Zero Linden: Ever hear the expression "watching sausage be made..."?
[13:56] Khamon Fate: Of course they do, what better quick collaboration tool is there?
[13:56] Hiro Market: what is LS but IRC with pictures ?
[13:56] Khamon Fate: 3D pictures
[13:56] Wyn Galbraith: It's the one system I've avoided all these years.
[13:56] Zero Linden: I was just talking with Cory about the collaborative text thing....
[13:57] Zero Linden: We'd love to see something like SubEthaEdit or some equivalent be the text editor component in the viewer
[13:57] Khamon Fate: It's a wora'uld.
[13:57] Zero Linden: have it work with collaborative text editing of notecards and scripts in world
[13:57] Zero Linden: as well as connect to and edit hosted text documents out of world
[13:57] Zha Ewry nods...
[13:57] Zero Linden: if anyone knows of a group/team of engineers that is doing collaborative text we'd be interested in talking with 'em
[13:58] Rex Cronon: i hope it won't require that all those that use it must be in the same group
[13:58] Zero Linden: Well, we've been users of IRC very heavily since the begining
[13:58] Khamon Fate: There has to be *some* permission to write to it
[13:59] Zero Linden: But now, if you go to the IRC channel for my studio, you'll find teh topic
[13:59] Zero Linden: that says "we've moved to Lindenopolis D 196,13"
[13:59] Rex Cronon: the one that makes the board can invite/remove others
[13:59] Wyn Galbraith: I use so many messengers already,just never got into it... figured it would eat too much more of my time ;)
[14:00] Zero Linden: Khamon- our IRC? it is internal only, not connected to the global IRC
[14:00] Khamon Fate: As it should be. I'd just like to log in for a day and see it roll by.
[14:01] Zero Linden: As for collaboration in world - voice has really added lots
[14:01] Zero Linden: We've talked about doing VNC style integration, which I believe is what Croquet is doing
[14:01] Zha Ewry wonders if there might be a "hot list" os such that we coould see. Top issues currently causing mpain..
[14:01] Zero Linden: but tha is very bandwidth intensive... and we worry about that
[14:01] Sheet Spotter: Uh oh...Are there are more database and tp issues hitting the fan right now?
[14:02] Zero Linden: Internally we don't have such a hot list - it is just the ops folks cursing on IRC that let's us know what is, er, hot
[14:02] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[14:02] Zha Ewry frowns.. Heh
[14:02] Khamon Fate: I've never heard a Linden curse. Give us a hot one Zero.
[14:02] Rex Cronon: there might be sheet, right before i came here SWT didn't allow objects to be rezzed from inventory
[14:02] Khamon Fate: Go ahead, we won't tell, you can edit the log
[14:02] Zero Linden: uhm... more cursing and something just "crashed again".... alas, I didn't see what it was the first time...
[14:02] Wyn Galbraith: It's like parents, the curse when the kids aren't in the room.
[14:03] Zero Linden: The exact, technical comment from IRC was: "Fucking thing crashed again."
[14:03] Wyn Galbraith: Isn't that pretty traditional?
[14:03] Rex Cronon: i guess u r going to do some editing
[14:03] Khamon Fate: That do sound serious.
[14:04] Zero Linden: Well, there is this technical curse: "We don't do QoS anywhere."
[14:04] Khamon Fate: I must away.
[14:04] Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Zero.
[14:04] Zero Linden: but now I really WILL have to edit....
[14:04] Zha Ewry debates walking... home. not trying to TP.
[14:04] Zha Ewry: Thanks as always Zero.
[14:04] Zero Linden: Sigh.....
[14:04] Wyn Galbraith: At autodesk it was 'works on my machine'.
[14:04] Khamon Fate: Why do I always end up standing in the chair ha ha
[14:04] Zero Linden: welcome as always all
[14:04] Zero Linden: Those charis are big!
[14:04] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
[14:05] Sheet Spotter: ty for your insightful comments, Zero.
[14:05] Zha Ewry: Sl wants us to be up int he air...
[14:05] Hiro Market: aye ty as always
[14:05] Zha Ewry: of course.. me on a chair. is about normal Sl hieght.
[14:05] Zero Linden: Until next time!
[14:05] Rex Cronon: i hope the first half-hour requires no editing becuse i would like to read it
[14:05] Wyn Galbraith: Bye.
[14:05] Zero Linden wonders how he can walk back to Lindenopolis... which isn't connected to the mainland....
[14:05] Sheet Spotter: Swim? :-)
[14:06] Wyn Galbraith: YOu can't get there from here then.