User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Apr 19

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:32] Dr Scofield: /help
[7:32] Tree Kyomoon: hello
[7:32] Zero Linden: good morning
[7:33] Zero Linden: Dr Scofield! A pleasure!
[7:33] Dr Scofield: zero, nice to meet you :-)
[7:33] Zero Linden: I wish I could stream what I'm listening to here....
[7:33] Dr Scofield: music?
[7:34] Zero Linden: but if you want the same background music as I'm listening to, it's Music for 18 Musicians by S. Reich
[7:34] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[7:36] Zero Linden: Hmmm.... my slides there are getting rather old....
[7:36] Jarod Godel: that's not the current version?
[7:36] Zero Linden: No no, meaning that the topic is a bit stale!
[7:37] Zero Linden: I have a new set in the works - but they aren't quite ready yet
[7:37] Jarod Godel: ah-aha
[7:37] Tree Kyomoon: Ive been playing with the new voice beta...its pretty well done
[7:37] Rex Cronon: good morining everybody
[7:37] Zero Linden: We've been using it extensively within Linden Lab
[7:38] Zero Linden: For example, my group now has it's morning huddle via it
[7:38] Tree Kyomoon: I really want it for my island, to get my coworkers and clients into SL
[7:38] Sifu Moraga: afk
[7:38] Zero Linden: And I've noticed that many other groups are too
[7:38] Jarod Godel: will your talks ever be chat exclusive, replacing transcripts with podcasts?
[7:38] Zero Linden: Then the engineers tend to hang out on our build - and we chatter all day about the coding going on
[7:38] Zero Linden: It helps spread the info, and get the right ears on problems
[7:38] Tree Kyomoon: much more collaborative
[7:39] Zero Linden: And - other engineers can come "find" us - there and that really works better than interrupting via IRC
[7:39] Zero Linden: It allows pair programming with remotely separated pairs
[7:39] Dr Scofield: you are using IRC? neat
[7:39] Dr Scofield: /help
[7:40] Jarod Godel: #secondlife is a channel on efnet, but the lindens have an in-house server seperate, iirc.
[7:40] Zero Linden: I suppose I need some lanterns in here....
[7:40] Dr Scofield: /lb
[7:40] lightbee: Hello Captain. Touch me to put me away.
[7:40] Jarod Godel: /help
[7:40] Bash whispers: COMMAND LIST:
[7:40] Bash whispers: time: Gives the date and time. Type: /time
[7:40] Bash whispers: hello: Says 'Hello, World.' Type: /hello
[7:40] Bash whispers: help: Prints the command list. Type: /help
[7:40] Bash whispers: add: Adds a series of numbers. Type: /add(x,y,z)
[7:40] Bash whispers: subtract: Subtracts a series of numbers. Type: /subtract(x,y,z)
[7:40] Bash whispers: multiply: Multiples a series of numbers. Type: /multiply(x,y,z)
[7:40] Bash whispers: divide: Divides a series of numbers. Type: /divide(x,y,z)
[7:40] Bash whispers: modulo: Finds the remasinders of two numbers. Type: /modulo(x,y)
[7:40] Bash whispers: email: Send an email. Type: /email [address] [message]
[7:40] Jarod Godel: Yikes. I thought scripts were off. Sorry.
[7:40] Zero Linden: Yes - it is a closed server - a fact which it exclaims every time I connect: "Warning! Disconnected Mode!"
[7:41] Dr Scofield: lol
[7:41] flying ball whispers: I am ALIVE!
[7:41] Tree Kyomoon: wow sentience
[7:41] Rex Cronon: :)
[7:41] Zero Linden: Uhm - does someone have a bash remote interface?
[7:41] Zero Linden: or is that just some shell system for LSL scripts?
[7:41] Jarod Godel: Bash is the name of my hammer.
[7:41] Zero Linden: LOL
[7:41] Tree Kyomoon: lol
[7:42] Tree Kyomoon: so I have a question about voice
[7:42] Tree Kyomoon: it will be included with the class 5 sims?
[7:42] Zero Linden thinks of several hundred years in the future as people try to explain why one of the Second Life gods is named "Bash"
[7:42] Tree Kyomoon: (no extra charge)
[7:43] Zero Linden: I will be honest in that I don't know the plan for marketing voice too well.
[7:43] Zero Linden: I'm not sure how that will play out... though I think that Joe Linden has blogged more details than I can remember
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: ah ok I'll check there thanks!
[7:43] Zero Linden: Oh - standard disclaimer: I'm gonna put all your words on the wiki!
[7:44] Tree Kyomoon: this lighting really ages me 20 years
[7:44] Jarod Godel: Is voice the same service as the cellphone/VoIP service I recall reading something about a while ago?
[7:44] Zero Linden: But - perhaps I can answer some of the technical side of the voice product today
[7:44] Suite17 Sunglasses AVIATOR whispers: loading blue textures...
[7:44] Zero Linden: er, which "the cellphone /VoIP" service?
[7:44] Rex Cronon: go to world/force sun/noon
[7:44] Zero Linden: control-shift-Y
[7:45] Dr Scofield: better?
[7:45] Dr Scofield: /light
[7:45] Jarod Godel: Zero, I don't remember...just some deal/partnering I though Linden Lab had with a VoIP service. I may be remembering wrong.
[7:45] Sifu Moraga: back again
[7:45] Zero Linden: Ah - don't know
[7:45] Zero Linden: about that
[7:46] Zero Linden: The current system all came into being in the last, oh, 9 months...
[7:46] Tree Kyomoon: the voice is being supplied by a third party though right? Vivox or something?
[7:46] Zero Linden: Yes, Vivox
[7:46] Dr Scofield: /light
[7:46] Jarod Godel: That may be what I'm thinking of...I'll have to look. Thanks, Tree.
[7:46] Tree Kyomoon: I picked up a nice plantronics headset, I highly recommend it
[7:46] Tree Kyomoon: $30
[7:47] Jarod Godel: Will we be able to dump conversations to MP3's?
[7:47] Zero Linden: and the 3d tecnology is from Diamondware (had to look that up)
[7:47] Sifu Moraga: Got one of those, but not stereo
[7:47] Jarod Godel: ...for podcasting or LifeBlogging?
[7:47] Zero Linden: Jarod - the voice part of the viewer won't do that... but you might have system software that can...
[7:47] Jarod Godel: Ok.
[7:48] Tree Kyomoon: I just run cool edit in the background
[7:48] Tree Kyomoon: record whatever I want to mp3
[7:48] Zha Ewry: Hey all
[7:48] Jarod Godel: Does cool edit sit between an application and the sound system?
[7:48] Rex Cronon: hi
[7:48] Dr Scofield: hi zha
[7:48] Tree Kyomoon: it can pull whatever is going to the speakers
[7:49] Tree Kyomoon: in windows XP, but not vista
[7:49] Jarod Godel: /twit Check out Cool Edit.
[7:49] Tree Kyomoon: with vista you have to run a cable from the audio out to the audio input
[7:49] Zero Linden notices another twitter like attachment in use
[7:49] Zero Linden: Our team is also currently experimenting with using twitter as part of our agile engineering process
[7:50] Zero Linden: We all just twitter all day long about what we're doing. The hope is that creates a trackable log
[7:50] Jarod Godel: That would be cool.
[7:50] Jarod Godel: Mind if I ask your Twitter name?
[7:50] Zero Linden: zerolinden....
[7:50] Zero Linden: as if you couldn't guess!
[7:51] Jarod Godel: I'm jarod.
[7:51] Dr Scofield: hi pipe
[7:51] Pipe Hesse: Hi Dr Scofield
[7:51] Tree Kyomoon: so Ive noticed a lot of resistance to voice in the that being ignored (hopefully) and why is it there?
[7:51] Zero Linden: Twitter is definitely having the scaling blues too these days!
[7:51] Jarod Godel: Voice is bad when it comes to multi-tasking.
[7:52] Zero Linden: Voice is going forward - but there is no requirement to use it
[7:52] Jarod Godel: Zero, it's their fault for using Ruby, instead of a real language. *cough
[7:52] Dr Scofield: also it's harder to capture voice conversations
[7:52] Sifu Moraga: I thought voice worked quite well on the beta grid
[7:52] Zero Linden: Jarod, don't make me rail about Rails.....
[7:52] Sifu Moraga: not sure if I'd use it all the time, though
[7:52] Jarod Godel: Lol
[7:52] Zero Linden: Indeed - for example, this forum may not work so well in voice
[7:52] Tree Kyomoon: it will be a great teaching / collaboration tool
[7:53] Zero Linden: Or it may only work if I'm explaining something long....
[7:53] Zero Linden: Not sure.
[7:53] Dr Scofield: plus it tends to punch a hole into your privacy sphere
[7:53] Zero Linden: Will voice induce cultural changes in SL - probably - I couldn't speculate
[7:53] Rex Cronon: or it could be used for spam:(
[7:53] Tree Kyomoon: true, reveals your "true self"
[7:53] Pipe Hesse: btw is there going to be voice support for the linux client? I haven't seen any reference to it...
[7:53] Khamon Fate: It would be a great teaching/collaborating tool if we could see each others screens.
[7:53] Khamon Fate: or project our screens onto a board
[7:54] Dr Scofield: yep, map konsole into SL
[7:54] Zero Linden: Pipe - I don't know
[7:54] Zero Linden: I'll ask....
[7:54] Pipe Hesse: thanks!
[7:54] Zero Linden: Well, there is always the "bake your desktop into your pants" bug that Zha mentioned last week....
[7:55] Sifu Moraga: lol
[7:55] Zero Linden: ...but reading a Word document wrapped around a cuff might be difficult!
[7:55] Sifu Moraga: We had that here too
[7:55] Jarod Godel: If you could sync up someones screen, via QT, and use voice, that might'd be tricky to do that, though.
[7:55] Zero Linden: We've been using screen extensively in our pair-coding - and have been brainstorming ways to get that into SL some how
[7:55] Pipe Hesse: can do it if you only want a frame rate of 1 frame every could of seconds :-)
[7:55] Khamon Fate: Yes but I'm just talking about people being able to see each other edit windows for instance when teaching building or collaboratively building
[7:55] Tree Kyomoon: with http on a prim you could use the google word program to collaborate on those kinds of things
[7:55] Zero Linden: Another thing we really really want is something like SubEthaEdit but in SL
[7:56] Jarod Godel: Zero, can RealVNC be streamed?
[7:56] Zero Linden: We love collaborative editing of text: program code, task lists, proposed protocols, documentation
[7:56] Sifu Moraga: I tried it
[7:56] Zero Linden: we'd love to do that in SL
[7:56] Dr Scofield: right, VNC might be a way of getting a screen session into SL
[7:56] Sifu Moraga: too slow refresh rate
[7:56] Pipe Hesse: Dr Scofield - there was a demo of it running on Hursley, but not sure if its still going...
[7:56] Zero Linden: we have all used VNC at times... it is slow and often touch-and-go
[7:56] Jarod Godel: Sifu, so VNC->QT works, in theory?
[7:56] Khamon Fate: Actually Sifu, it wouldn't have to be real time quick to be effective.
[7:57] Zero Linden: Biggest problem with VNC is the inabliity to publish only a subset of windows.
[7:57] Dr Scofield: pipe, great i'll hunt around
[7:57] Zha Ewry: VNC mostly goes to gray goo for me with SL
[7:57] Zero Linden: Not to mention total lack of security
[7:57] Khamon Fate: The odd frame every few seconds would be enough to collaborate or demonstrate.
[7:57] Sifu Moraga: No, I was just doing VNC to another PC
[7:57] Zero Linden: Demo yes - but not really collaboratively code or edit task lists
[7:58] Khamon Fate: Real time updates would be way cool flashy shiny, but inefficient
[7:58] Tree Kyomoon: well you can always have a webbrowser open with SL next to it and use webEx
[7:58] Dr Scofield: yep...was just thinking about would need some way of restricting viewing and editing access to it
[7:58] Pipe Hesse: I think it can be useful for some teaching situations even with a very slow frame rate...
[7:58] Zha Ewry: Tree, as soon as you do that, you've *so* broken the immservice experience.
[7:58] Jarod Godel: SL need an ActiveWorlds-like interface: in-world screen for the majority and a web browser for the rest, that would make screencasting plug-ins easier and not dependant on SL's bandwidth.
[7:59] Zero Linden: Cool... getting twitter updates about the state of the teams's coding....
[8:00] Zero Linden: Several people have suggested that if we put HTML on a prim, in the style where the browser is all run local, and so the object supplies just the initial URL
[8:00] Zero Linden: that we can have collaborative web viewing by all poitning at something like webex or other collaborative web tools
[8:00] Sifu Moraga: I personally thought it was too slow to be useful for anything but I didnt' try to optimze
[8:00] Zha Ewry: Depends, on you goals with that.. If you want to share HTML.. fine
[8:00] Zero Linden: so we all see our own "version" of the page (based on what? login? IP? session?)
[8:01] Zha Ewry: But... Not for gui, or such.. nor will you be fully linked in world in terms of being abel to highlight and all
[8:01] Zero Linden: yet the external web app is doing the heavily lifting to make it feel collaborative
[8:01] Zero Linden: I'm a bit dubious this will work
[8:01] Zha Ewry: (or not... if it doesn't.. then you can get very disjoint expereinces)
[8:01] Zero Linden: So yes, - we don't get shared UI as you point out, which may or may not be a probelm
[8:01] Zha Ewry: I can't for example, show you a sesssion where I'm logged in.
[8:01] Zha Ewry: My amazon account, and ask you why a form isn't being accepted
[8:02] Khamon Fate: It won't be disjointed if the clients are talking to each other rather than the sim to refresh their windows
[8:02] Zero Linden: SubEthaEdit's brilliance is to not take a single user UI and make a "pass the chalk" version of it, but to re-imagine UI for multiple users
[8:02] Sifu Moraga: I never 'got' the HTML-on-a-prim idea. Why is it so important? (OK, I'm probably a heretic)
[8:02] Jarod Godel: shared UI won't be a problem once we get web-based textures.
[8:02] Pipe Hesse: dynamic update of textures?
[8:02] Zero Linden: Zha - good good use case
[8:02] Tree Kyomoon: gives the option for us to host content independantly of SL
[8:02] Zha Ewry: Jarod, that's only true for static(ish) content
[8:03] Dr Scofield: sifu, bit moody wants it to do a photo gallery that would be served from her gallery2 server
[8:03] Sifu Moraga: llHTTPRequest but for real this time, Pipe?
[8:03] Khamon Fate: Is SubEthaEdit the latest snakeoil claiming to support multiuser realtime collaborative editing?
[8:03] Zha Ewry: for dynamic, or contextual content.. It's not going to do what you expect when two or more peopel look at it.
[8:03] Zero Linden: Perhaps these shared expereince web apps would evolve to meet the needs of being on prim faces.... but things like WebEx - have too much local control for
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: plus ideally we could save/read all inventory items from our own webservers not just via SL
[8:03] Zero Linden: us to have the image be really the same
[8:04] Pipe Hesse: Sifu, yea just an image if not html would be a great start....
[8:04] Zero Linden: and I worry that having such a disjoint object in world will break the magic.
[8:04] Zero Linden: (okay, that might be overly dramatic... but you get my point)
[8:04] Khamon Fate ducktapes his virtual mouth shut
[8:04] Zha Ewry: I don't think that's overly dramatic.. It can fall apart really fast
[8:04] Khamon Fate: ducktape ha ha ha
[8:05] Jarod Godel: disjoint is magic.
[8:05] Jarod Godel: synthesis and remixing.
[8:05] Tree Kyomoon: depends on ones perspective of SL, if its a fantasy fun life then yes, but for me its just a tool so "breaking the magic" is irrelevant
[8:05] Khamon Fate: collaboration in a 3D environment is magic
[8:05] Zha Ewry: When it does.. it's suddenly IRC with odd graphics.. and its hard to sell the cost of SL for irc with funnny graphics
[8:05] Jarod Godel: Dnoces Efil si cigam.
[8:05] Zha Ewry: Even.. as a tool..
[8:05] Zero Linden: Khamon - no SubEthaEdit has been around for several years and is very smooth and really works - each person has their own selection - you can all type at the same time - and it just a fine text editor too (see my LSL plug in!)
[8:05] Zha Ewry: When you break immersion.. it's real problem
[8:06] Khamon Fate: It's harder to sell SL as a contiguous wora'uld that supports no useful function.
[8:06] Sifu Moraga: Nah, Khamon, it will only remain magic while it only works hit-or-miss
[8:06] Zero Linden: Tree - ah - the magic I meant wasn't the "fantasy life", but the magic of a shared 3D experience
[8:06] Zero Linden: which is why we are sitting here, and not just hangin' on IRC
[8:06] Khamon Fate: I'll look at the plug in; is it on the wiki?
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: Right, but this is more useful than IRC, you get proximity and bodylanguage for context
[8:07] Zero Linden: Khamon - don't know - it IS on the SubEthaEdit web site
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: plus we can represent ourselves more fully
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: there is no magic that I see
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: to that
[8:07] Khamon Fate: Frankly, we're sitting here because it's where you're conducting the meeting. If we could participate via IRC, some of us probably would be.
[8:07] Jarod Godel: True.
[8:07] Zha Ewry: Because. Tree.. it's way more immersive. The cuing works.. for me.. becuase of the sense of place and people.
[8:07] Zero Linden: Ha - I think the way I look in SL is magic!
[8:07] Zha Ewry: The more it turns into IRC with dijsoint graphical content.. the more I lose that cuing
[8:08] Tree Kyomoon: well one can read as much as one wants to...both for this and IRC
[8:08] Zero Linden: I concur with that
[8:08] Khamon Fate: And that's wonderful for some face to face type applications Zha, but it's not an end all collaborative tool.
[8:08] Zha Ewry: Oh, defintlye, Khamon..
[8:08] Khamon Fate: In fact, there's not much about SL that supports actual collaboration at all
[8:09] Zha Ewry: There's lots of stuff.. I can do better in net meeting at the moment
[8:09] Zero Linden: So - as heavy collaborative user myself, I'm on the look out for how to enhance the collaboration without losing the qualities that work so well
[8:09] Tree Kyomoon: this is far better for collaboration than net meeting
[8:09] Zha Ewry: But... What I want is the best intersection of shared desktop like tools, and SL like immersino
[8:09] Khamon Fate: It's a long haul to convert SL from a toy into a useful business product. I don't envy you that task Zero.
[8:09] Tree Kyomoon: toy????
[8:09] Zero Linden: The one thing you don't get with net meeting , or conference calls, or skype - is location.
[8:10] Tree Kyomoon: Totally disagree there Khamon
[8:10] Jarod Godel: I think getting an in-client browser would go a long way to that end, Zero; with such a thing, even a simple one, we could stafrt building and using pre-built tools *IN* SL.
[8:10] Zero Linden: We have four private regions set up for Linden's inworld HQ
[8:10] Zero Linden: You can really go find people - walk up
[8:10] Zha Ewry: Depends, Tree.. FOr chat. driven stuff (even with voice) SL is pretty copelling. But.. When it comes to being able to share stuff along the way.. SL is still fairly painful
[8:10] Zero Linden: the "are they busy"? Can I interrupt? Are they there at all?
[8:10] Zero Linden: all that stuff seems to be really working
[8:10] Zha Ewry: Information collisions, casual collaboration.. FOr that.. SL rocks.
[8:10] Zero Linden: for us
[8:10] Zha Ewry: Deep presence.
[8:10] Tree Kyomoon: depends on what you are sharing Zha
[8:10] Zha Ewry: (The are you busy.... What are they talkign about... stuff)
[8:11] Sifu Moraga: presense and state
[8:11] Tree Kyomoon: there isnt a better tool for sharing concepts and ideas that ive seen
[8:11] Jarod Godel: Zero, mind if I ask a kind of snarky question?
[8:11] Zha Ewry: When I need to show someone a UML diagram.. SL is painful
[8:11] Zero Linden: And things like - our groups hang up billboards with their projects and status on it
[8:11] Zero Linden: (there are like half a dozen giant xyText boards there!)
[8:11] Zha Ewry: I can do it.. but it isn't nautral.. and I can't easily manipulate it inSL
[8:11] Sifu Moraga: Zha, what about the one on Hursley?
[8:11] Khamon Fate: When I'm trying to teach SL-related material such as how to build, terraform, script, SL is painful.
[8:11] Holger Streeter: tach och
[8:11] Zero Linden: Snark away, Jarod
[8:11] Sifu Moraga: (OK, takes too long to rez)
[8:12] Zha Ewry: Way too long.. and not linked back to eclipse.. (heh)
[8:12] Jarod Godel: Why do the lindens use Twitter when an in-world, logged group IM would do the same thing locally?
[8:12] Sifu Moraga: true
[8:12] Jarod Godel: Second Life has a lot of half-baked collab tools, like that, but they are just that...half-baked.
[8:12] Dr Scofield: no updates on mobile phones?
[8:13] Tree Kyomoon: totally disagree Jarod
[8:13] Zero Linden: Jarod - dunno - all experiment - my group (it is just my group) decided to all try twitter for a week or two -
[8:13] Khamon Fate: What's a mobile phone?
[8:13] Zero Linden: perhaps a scripted in world system woudl be better
[8:13] Jarod Godel: Dr Scofield, Sl->Email->sms has been done.
[8:13] Sifu Moraga: Yes, I'd like be 'present' on a mobile phone
[8:13] Dr Scofield: kind of a vehicle
[8:13] Zero Linden: though - we all use Ordinal's excellent TwitterBox
[8:13] Sifu Moraga: not the same thing, jarod
[8:13] Zero Linden: so we *ARE* using a in-world scripted system!
[8:13] Dr Scofield: sure, but twitter's SMS service is free
[8:13] Zero Linden: where's the line.... where's the line....
[8:14] Khamon Fate: The line, at the risk of sounding snarky, is that SL is a compelling collaborative environment.
[8:14] Khamon Fate: Philip's been saying that for years. But LL haven't built the tools into the system to make it true.
[8:14] Jarod Godel: Sifu, yes, it is. It's a running, slow chat between groups of people.
[8:14] Zero Linden: Actually - I don't conenct twitter to my phone (apparently I'm too old to "text" -- it isn't a verb to me!)
[8:14] Zero Linden: I just get the updates in world!
[8:15] Sifu Moraga: hmmm, cool, got to try it
[8:15] Zero Linden: Khamon - I don't think WE want to build the tools - just enable 'em. So
[8:15] Tree Kyomoon: so SL is chat with proximity, context and personality
[8:15] Zero Linden: we are using twitter as a friendship and redistribution tool.... no need for that to be in LSL
[8:15] Jarod Godel: Fair enough.
[8:16] Zero Linden: I sit in world, I type '/282 I'm at a meeting' --- it shows up as HUD chat on my group's screens
[8:16] Zha Ewry: Given Tree's point (which I take.. and like)
[8:16] Khamon Fate: Yeah that's what I mean by SL not being an end all collaborative environment.
[8:16] Zero Linden: so - that is all SL to us!
[8:16] Khamon Fate: So y'all break the magic by using twitter, then claim you don't want to break the magic.
[8:16] Zha Ewry: I think what's missing, as yet is ways to get the stuff from outside SL today.. inside.. so we keep the immersion, while sharingf context. Which is non trivial
[8:16] Dr Scofield: zero, which twitter HUD are you using?
[8:17] Khamon Fate: When you use a third party device to communicate, it's SL; when I want students to see my SL screen in a floater, it breaks the magic.
[8:17] Zero Linden: Khamon - you aren't be fair - and missing my points:
[8:17] Zero Linden: 1) It doesn't matter if things are processed in LSL, or via external web servers ---
[8:18] Zero Linden: There is nothing special about LSL -
[8:18] Zero Linden: 2) The "magic" had to do with that we all see the same thing --
[8:18] Rex Cronon: is kind of slow:(
[8:18] Zero Linden: I REALLY REALLY REALLY want your students to see your screen on a prim face in world
[8:18] Zero Linden: really
[8:18] Zero Linden: (was the clear? REALLY!)
[8:19] Zero Linden: What I don't want is for three of your students to see your screen, and the rest to be off looking at myspace
[8:19] Zero Linden: or worse half seeing one part of your screen
[8:19] Jarod Godel: Zero...
[8:19] Zero Linden: and the others, cause they have different account settings, to see only some of it
[8:19] Jarod Godel: Unless you take control of someone's computer, that's always a danger.
[8:19] Zha Ewry nods a Zero. "And I want to be able to show someone a partly filled contextual form and say 'what goes in slot 7'"
[8:19] Pipe Hesse: already get that problem with QT because of inconsistent support
[8:19] Zero Linden: and you're talking about something on the screen, and they're all like "where? I dont' see it?"
[8:19] Sifu Moraga even had a use case for this the other day....
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: SL is, by far, the best human communication tool ever made in the entire history of mankind
[8:20] Jarod Godel: Zero, that happens in REAL classes.
[8:20] Zero Linden: Mind you - I don't care if they are surfing myspace from some other window - I just think if it is in world - we sould all have pretty much the same idea of what we are seeing
[8:20] Rex Cronon: u might be thingking about the video phone tre:)
[8:21] Tree Kyomoon: lol not even close rex.
[8:21] Zero Linden: LIke - we all see this rug as a floral, persian pattern, right?
[8:21] Zha Ewry: LOL
[8:21] Tree Kyomoon: Id be happy to explain exactly why in another conversation
[8:21] Zha Ewry: Circles
[8:21] Zha Ewry: Zeroish circles
[8:21] Sifu Moraga: I see fishes
[8:21] Sifu Moraga: kidding
[8:21] Wyn Galbraith sees a rug full of zeros.
[8:21] Pipe Hesse: missing texture? ;-)
[8:22] Zero Linden: I know - the point being that our common view of the objects and eachother is why it is expressive
[8:22] Sifu Moraga: yup
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: EXACTLY!!!!
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: thats the main reason its the best tool ever
[8:22] Zero Linden: so - I think intermixing things from out of SL - like twitter, like your desktop, like a shared text document, like images off a server - into SL
[8:22] Zero Linden: is even MORE magic
[8:23] Rex Cronon: than allow scripts to move body parts(not only animations) this can add a new level of immersion, freedom of expression:)
[8:23] Dr Scofield: so, which twitter HUD are you guys using?
[8:23] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[8:23] Tree Kyomoon: human communication is 90% context
[8:23] Zero Linden: but I don't want to lose that common immersion that makes SL the collaborative experience- with cuing- that it is
[8:23] Zha Ewry agrees. "Much of the next level of collaboration will happen when we get more sohared content in"
[8:23] Zero Linden: Oh - Ordinal Malaprop's TwitterBox
[8:23] Dr Scofield: ta
[8:24] Wyn Galbraith belatedly says goodmorning during the lull.
[8:24] Zero Linden: Well- this has gotten somewhat far afield from our normal fare!
[8:24] Rex Cronon: like now everybody is actually a preprogrammed-robot that can move only based on a given set of instructions:(
[8:25] Zero Linden: But I'm glad I got to talk about my approach to looking at these challenges of integration.
[8:25] Rex Cronon: right now*
[8:25] Tree Kyomoon: no, we simply wear pre-programmed robots that are currently limited by a set of instructions
[8:25] Tree Kyomoon: we are still fully functional human beings
[8:25] Dr Scofield: nah....
[8:26] Dr Scofield: you are kidding
[8:26] Zha Ewry nods "And we casn aadd some queues, in the text, and by playing with the controls on the robots" She sighs, "But it's very clumsy, and requires a lot of typing"
[8:26] Rex Cronon: we are restricted
[8:26] Dr Scofield: go away! ;-)
[8:26] Zha Ewry: cues
[8:26] Zero Linden: I was just wondering yesterday, looking at my build here, how much the feel of this space contributes to our great sessions.
[8:26] Dr Scofield: it's that carpet
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: yes, Zero, a very good point, we are essentially sitting in your personal space
[8:26] Wyn Galbraith has to agree with Zero there.
[8:26] Dr Scofield: "the carpet made me do it! really!"
[8:26] Zero Linden: Well - ya know, I spent a lot of time (an L$) on the furnishings here... as well as time makeing the space
[8:27] Zero Linden: I felt it was going to be worth it.
[8:27] Zha Ewry: Its really relevent
[8:27] Zha Ewry: I tell people.. it's zero's office
[8:27] Zha Ewry: And it is.
[8:27] Zero Linden: Well - my office space. My personal space in SL is elsewhere
[8:27] Zha Ewry: And.. there are all sorts of memory queues in that
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: my island is the same way, and I spend a lot of very real $ on that
[8:27] Khamon Fate: Not a good point Tree, right now, in SL, I'm looking at the map, cleaning out my inventory, watching the stats and using the chat window here. Can you all see that? Am I breaking your magic?
[8:27] Wyn Galbraith: That's what makes SL such a great communications arena. The creative way you can make the virtual space.
[8:27] Zero Linden: Right - like I think of my office hours as taking place on these chocolate brown couches
[8:28] Zero Linden: If I ever meet with you in real life - I'm going to long for them!
[8:28] Tree Kyomoon: Khamon...huh?
[8:28] Khamon Fate: But why do you care Zero if I'm doing a few other things in odd windows, in or out of world, at the same time?
[8:28] Zero Linden: Khamon - no - but we aren't talking about the map or your inventory
[8:28] Zero Linden: so, no, no magic broken
[8:28] Jarod Godel: Tree, you sai, " we are essentially sitting in your personal space"
[8:28] Zero Linden: when we do want to talk about your inventory - or the map - then YES
[8:29] Zha Ewry: What I notice.. is that.. I use the whole set of context.. to seed memory..and such.
[8:29] Zero Linden: why can't we unroll a map here on the floor and look at it together
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: well we are, Zero has personally designed this space, and provided the context for our conversation
[8:29] Wyn Galbraith thinks the magick would be full immersion with in-world computers accessing out-world things. ;)
[8:29] Jarod Godel: We can all see Khamon's inventory?
[8:29] Zero Linden: saying "all bring up the map.... seach for Fubar.... see that pink thing in the lower left...."
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: which is the non verbal communication
[8:29] Zero Linden: that just doesn't work
[8:29] Zero Linden: or at least it isn't magic!
[8:29] Khamon Fate: I don't see the difference in what I'm doing, and some student choosing to browse MySpace rather than be looking at a floater when I demonstrate something.
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: zero set the tone with this carpet, chairs, seating positions, view
[8:30] Zero Linden: Oh - no, I wasn't clear - I *don't* care if the student is surfing in someother window at all
[8:30] Zero Linden: Nor do I care if you do
[8:30] Jarod Godel: Unless you're talking about mind control magic...and I doubt the White Council would approve of using that kind of magic to keep people from browsing MySpace.
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: not to mention his freaky deeky avatar
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[8:30] Zero Linden: I care that when I talk to you about the rug I place here I know that you and I are seeing the same thing
[8:30] Khamon Fate: Magic would be everybody opening a floater that showed your map so we could watch you navigate it and show us what you were talking about.
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: then we each bring our own unique context to the discussion with our individual avatars
[8:31] Zero Linden: If that rug is the map - it will only work if we see the same - not if we each scroll it independently
[8:31] Jarod Godel: That will only work if I'm not off in another window, ignoring you.
[8:31] Tree Kyomoon: I for example, bring a kind of reminder of our mortality to the discussion
[8:31] Jarod Godel: Shared context is an agreement, not something yu can enforce.
[8:31] Zha Ewry: Jarod.. you can always chose to ignore this context
[8:32] Khamon Fate: Oh well okay, when did I say that we needed to be able to see alternate content in the floaters?
[8:32] Zero Linden: *That* I can't, shouldn't, and can never control!
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: conversation isnt about enforcing rules
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: its about sharing
[8:32] Jarod Godel: Which is Khamon's point....
[8:32] Khamon Fate: Sorry, I didn't mean that, simply that all the student floaters would see what the instructor was doing.
[8:32] Zha Ewry: But.. what we want to get to.. is that when we choose to share.. we can share alot more
[8:32] Pipe Hesse: just need to make it possible for a shared common view when people want it.....
[8:32] Jarod Godel: If students choose to ignore him: their loss. If students keep on the same page: their gain.
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: agreed
[8:32] Zero Linden: No - I was saying that some HTML on a prim designs result in that each of us could be seeing a different web page on the rug, when I'm trying to show you something there
[8:33] Rex Cronon: even in RL u can't have 2 people writing one the same portion of the blackboard at the same time
[8:33] Wyn Galbraith is a student that tends to do both.
[8:33] Jarod Godel: but by denying an in-world tool because someone may ignore him in-world as opposed to in another window is silly.
[8:33] Tree Kyomoon: ah I see zero, I am assuming that HTML on a prim would be controlled by the land owner and commonly seen by everyone in world
[8:33] Khamon Fate: I don't remember saying HTML or on a prim face either, I aplogize for giving that impression as well.
[8:33] Zero Linden: I just want to look to engineering solutions that will result in a high likelyhood that we will be having a shared experience when we want be having one
[8:34] Zero Linden: I fear that local browser with only inital supplied URL will cause us not ot
[8:34] Zero Linden: AH
[8:34] Zha Ewry nods "That's the key point.. . for me Zero."
[8:34] Zero Linden: wait - here's an example
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: right I am thinking more in terms of web based images on a prim rather than interactive HTML
[8:34] Zero Linden: have you ever gone up to a QuickTime screen in world
[8:34] Zero Linden: that isn't synchronized?
[8:34] Zero Linden: and so one is standing there watching a movie
[8:34] Zero Linden: and you click the play button and start to watch it too
[8:35] Zero Linden: and then you start to talk about it
[8:35] Jarod Godel: That's how a quiz program I wrote for Language Lab supports multi-user support.
[8:35] Zero Linden: only to discover that they are 5 min. later into the movie than you?!??!
[8:35] Khamon Fate: And that's a bad thing?
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: yes, exactly, the html or movie in that case has to be controlled by the person communicating at the time
[8:35] Zero Linden: Right!
[8:35] Khamon Fate: I mean having that capability is a bad thing?
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: otherwise the idea of being in a virtual world is lost
[8:36] Zero Linden: No - it's fine - though unnerving if the user's didn't expect it (as the build, say, suggested it was shared experience)
[8:36] Sifu Moraga needs to attend an emergency again. sigh
[8:36] Jarod Godel: Tree, so you've never had someone say "SHUT UP, I HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THATBCHAPTER YET?"
[8:36] Sifu Moraga: afk
[8:36] Khamon Fate: You know, I leave it up to humans to solve that problem themselves. If they wanna watch at the same time, the one can pause and wait for the other.
[8:36] Zero Linden: But some HTML solutions i fear will ALWAYS be like that - and never have the common control option
[8:36] Zha Ewry: No.. they can't Khamon. if we don't give them controls to synch
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: Jarod, not if someone is reading the book to me or I am in a movie theatre with all the other patrons
[8:36] Khamon Fate: Or they can both start over. That's no argument for denying the population the ability to offer nonsychonized video.
[8:37] Zha Ewry: They can do it today, Khamon.
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: "I'll watch it later thanks" kind of thing
[8:37] Jarod Godel: Tree, you've never been in a chat room with someone on the West Coast who said they couldn't wait to see the show you were watching at the time?
[8:37] Zero Linden: Well- with a movie, maybe... but can you imagine the chat over web sites? "Click that little thing on the left side... No, I'm a page witha red border...It says "site-map"...."
[8:37] Wyn Galbraith has to go fix an RL tub that decided to be niagra falls this morning. Doesn't appear to be a good day for me ;) Catch you all later.
[8:37] Jarod Godel: I have.
[8:37] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
[8:37] Khamon Fate: Bye Wyn
[8:37] Rex Cronon: than there need to be 2 types of sharing, synchronized and none
[8:37] Zha Ewry: But.. The synch option.. is missing. The point is.. about adding the stuff we need to enhance the expeience
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: Jarod, of course I have
[8:38] Jarod Godel: Tree, did it ruin your enjoyment of the show or your chatting?
[8:38] Wyn Galbraith: If I can teleport out of here, didn't work this morning getting here.
[8:38] Zero Linden: Of course- unsync'd web browsing we have today
[8:38] Tree Kyomoon: but when Im in the same place at the same time (IE Second Life) we should be synched up
[8:38] Zero Linden:
[8:38] Tree Kyomoon: or its not a "world"
[8:38] Khamon Fate: Fly into the next sim and port away; that's how I got here.
[8:38] Zero Linden: there - now we are all having a non-sync'd web browsing experience
[8:38] Jarod Godel: Tree, you've never listened to an iPod in a crowded room with talking people?
[8:38] Zero Linden: and frankly - one that works better than were it on the rug in here
[8:39] Jarod Godel: I regularly de-sync localized sound in fabor of Sum 41 all the time.
[8:39] Jarod Godel: *favor
[8:40] Khamon Fate: Y'all won't accept that a few common prims and textures doesn't provide a wholly synchronous environment for us will you?
[8:40] Tree Kyomoon: well thats your preference BUT if someone were to be sitting next to you, they might hear sum 41, and they would be hearing the exact same thing as you albeit quieter
[8:40] Khamon Fate: Is there video or sound here? I don't know; it's all muted for me.
[8:40] Tree Kyomoon: thats being int he same world together
[8:40] Jarod Godel: Tree
[8:40] Khamon Fate: Can you see the odd windows I'm lookingat, or chat sessions I'm participating in, can I see yours?
[8:40] Zero Linden: Mind you - this whole discussion, my words are not Linden dogma - or even my dogma - just tryng to explain how i evaluate technical options
[8:41] Jarod Godel: Tree, you've never sat next to someone talking on a cellphone?
[8:41] Tree Kyomoon: I give up
[8:41] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[8:41] Zero Linden: No - I can't Khamon - but I don't want to share those (yours or mine)
[8:41] Jarod Godel: I win!
[8:41] Khamon Fate: That's my point Zero, you'll limit viable, useful options in the name of synchronous magic.
[8:41] Zero Linden: and the audio here (there is none) isn't crucial to our shared experience
[8:41] Zero Linden: True - I will
[8:42] Pipe Hesse thinks the default should be that we all have a consistent view, and its clear in-world somehow when its not - eg in RL someone can see that you're wearing headphones so not hearing the same thing that they are
[8:42] Zero Linden: Of course, external texture on prim is synchronous magic
[8:42] Khamon Fate: At the risk of sounding Prokofyish, now it's your job as the coder to dictate what is and isn't crucial to "our" "shared" experience.
[8:42] Zero Linden: (though not perfect, which is okay, it just has to have a bat's chance of actually working!)
[8:42] Rex Cronon: no is not when i only see missing-texture
[8:42] Pipe Hesse: would the texture be sent directly from server to client or via a LL server?
[8:42] Khamon Fate: I had hoped you and your team weren't infected with that aspect of Lindeness.
[8:43] Zero Linden: No - it is my job as coder to try and pick the most improtant things to do from the giant field of possibilities
[8:43] Zero Linden: I'd love to do both Khamon -
[8:43] Khamon Fate: But one criteria for you is not breaking your impression of the magic.
[8:43] Zha Ewry: And it's zero's job.. as an architect to find the key leverage points and insert flexibiilty in there.
[8:43] Zero Linden: But - as I have limited resources, my job here is to do what gives the most benefit, which is why I meet with you
[8:43] Khamon Fate: I suppose that's inevitable. I'd do the same thing, just with a much broader definition of magic.
[8:44] Jarod Godel: Zero, then do what offers the most options (unsynced) and let the LSL developers refine the tools on a per-need baskis.
[8:44] Zero Linden: Letting us all navigate a web page projected onto this rug, from a starting URL, but then navigated, and viewed independnently
[8:44] Zha Ewry: I think, Khamon.. that the "magic" (however defined) is the base use case.
[8:44] Zero Linden: doesn't add much that we can't do already
[8:44] Pipe Hesse: zero - it would be much better if when someone changed the page, it changed for everyone....
[8:45] Zero Linden: adding a web page view on that rug that we can collaboratively control so we are always seeing the same thing adds something , to the SL and to internet users, that isn't there already
[8:45] Khamon Fate: I agree with that totally Zero, still can't figure out what I said that indicated I wanted something different from that.
[8:45] Gizzy Electricteeth: hey guys =)
[8:45] Tree Kyomoon: right, and at least having independently sourced images from our own webservers showing up on prim surfaces would be extremely useful
[8:45] Khamon Fate: project my edit screen into student floaters
[8:45] DanteJones Laszlo: hello
[8:46] Zero Linden: Jarod - sure - if that is the easiest, most flexible optoin
[8:46] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:46] Zha Ewry: Heya Gizzy
[8:46] Khamon Fate: How does that translate into everyone doing their own thing in the windows?
[8:46] Zero Linden: though right now, no one in LL knows how to make LSL work with locally run browsers
[8:46] Zero Linden: really
[8:46] Tree Kyomoon: hello Gizzy and DanteJones
[8:46] Zero Linden: okay all -
[8:46] Khamon Fate: Can those types of features just be built into the client.
[8:46] Zero Linden: it is waaaay past the hour
[8:46] Gizzy Electricteeth: hey tree... LOVE the av =)
[8:47] Zero Linden: got to get back to twittering^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hcoding
[8:47] Tree Kyomoon: aww
[8:47] Khamon Fate: Offer shared floater, Accept shared floater
[8:47] Rex Cronon: what do u mean by work with the browser?
[8:47] Zero Linden: Khamon - that I like...
[8:47] Gizzy Electricteeth: was it somethign I said, Zero?
[8:47] Gizzy Electricteeth: ;)
[8:47] Zero Linden: No - sorry, the hour's up...
[8:47] Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting, and tolerating, Zero
[8:47] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[8:47] Zero Linden: thanks again for all coming
[8:47] Dr Scofield: thx
[8:47] Dr Scofield: cu
[8:47] Tree Kyomoon: thanks Zero
[8:47] Rex Cronon: ty zero
[8:47] Pipe Hesse: thanks!
[8:48] Zha Ewry: Zero.. very different today.. but very interesting, and thanks as always
[8:48] Zero Linden: Indeed it was - but glad it happend!
[8:48] Zero Linden: later
[8:48] Gizzy Electricteeth: heh - thanks!
[8:48] Rex Cronon: bye
[8:48] Khamon Fate: Jarod, did I really phrase that so badly that everybody misunderstood me?
[8:48] Zero Linden: no no Khamon - you didn't
[8:49] Jarod Godel: Khamon, no...not that I remember.
[8:49] Zero Linden: I was just worried that I did and that people thought I wanted to mind-control college studentws
[8:49] Zero Linden: :-)
[8:49] Dr Scofield: you don't???
[8:49] Khamon Fate: HypnoZero
[8:49] Zero Linden: well- at least not publically!