User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 17
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Revision as of 15:27, 19 July 2007 by Zero Linden (talk | contribs) (New page: Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours: {| |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;" | [13:01] | colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn starts loud applau...)
Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:
[13:01] | Saijanai Kuhn starts loud applause | |
[13:02] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Dia Liberation was amazingly flawless |
[13:02] | Squirrel Wood: | Hello Zero ^^ |
[13:02] | Kooky Jetaime: | Hello Zero |
[13:03] | Bridie Linden: | Ok to sit in? |
[13:03] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zha hello to you 2 |
[13:03] | Zha Ewry: | Hello, oh liberator of messages |
[13:03] | Zero Linden: | Hello hello |
[13:03] | Zha Ewry: | Have any messages actually flown obver the new tooling yet> |
[13:03] | Kooky Jetaime: | Hello Bridie |
[13:03] | Squirrel Wood: | the power of procedural textures ^^ |
[13:03] | Bridie Linden: | Hello Zero, Kooky, Squirrel |
[13:04] | Saijanai Kuhn: | hey Bridie |
[13:04] | Squirrel Wood: | So we meet again ^^ |
[13:04] | Zero Linden: | Oh - hey there Bridie - welcome, sitting in? |
[13:04] | Bridie Linden: | yes, if you don't mind! |
[13:04] | Bridie Linden: | :) |
[13:04] | Zero Linden: | not at all |
[13:04] | Bridie Linden: | I may get called away, but would love to 'listen' |
[13:05] | Wyn Galbraith: | Sorry I'm late, got griefed at a class. |
[13:05] | Kooky Jetaime: | Hello again Wyn |
[13:05] | Wyn Galbraith: | Hello. |
[13:05] | Zero Linden: | S'okay - it's a slow summer day... |
[13:06] | Zero Linden: | I've found that all over the grid - I hold an event that two months ago would have had 20 people attend, and now I get like six |
[13:06] | Wyn Galbraith: | Wasn't the abuse report option on the pie menu? |
[13:06] | Zero Linden: | still is |
[13:06] | Zha Ewry nods. Lots of folks off on vacatoins, away from school, busy, RL stuff | |
[13:07] | Kooky Jetaime: | The office hours I've attended earlier were busy. |
[13:07] | Wyn Galbraith: | Not for this griefer. |
[13:07] | Kooky Jetaime: | its there |
[13:08] | Zero Linden: | ah - if you are a land manager, and have rights to eject, looks like it got lost! |
[13:08] | Zero Linden: | bother! |
[13:08] | Squirrel Wood: | Oh well. german press (and probably others too) brought reports of the big companies "leaving" SL for greener pastures because 40k players online at peak times for them is "not enough"... |
[13:08] | Kooky Jetaime: | Roflol..new LL policy, if its your problem, deal with it yourself? |
[13:08] | Wyn Galbraith: | So it is suppose to be there and isn't now? It's not just because I'm on the first look voice? |
[13:08] | Kooky Jetaime: | hehehe |
[13:08] | Zero Linden: | might be .... |
[13:09] | Zero Linden: | I'm on first look (why isn't it named "first hear"?) |
[13:09] | Zero Linden: | too |
[13:09] | Kooky Jetaime: | haha.. do you want me to tp home and look? |
[13:09] | Squirrel Wood: | because you get to look at the communicate window first? ^^ |
[13:09] | Zero Linden: | no no - not now |
[13:09] | Zero Linden: | squirrel - your mic. is open and somewhat noisy |
[13:10] | Squirrel Wood: | humm.. I have push to talk set |
[13:10] | Rex Cronon: | hello everybody |
[13:10] | Kooky Jetaime: | actually for a person I don't have a report abuse button |
[13:10] | Zero Linden: | of course - I should just disable speech - since this isn't a voice based office hours |
[13:10] | Zero Linden: | though - I think I'll schedule one in the future - just as an experiment |
[13:10] | Kooky Jetaime: | Robin was talking about that earlier as well. |
[13:11] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I've never actually used voice for more than a few seconds. WOuld be interesting |
[13:11] | Zero Linden: | okay - it is 10 after - let's start |
[13:11] | Zero Linden: | So ---- Olé! |
[13:11] | Zero Linden: | the Message System is Liberated |
[13:11] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Bravo Encore Encore |
[13:11] | Rex Cronon: | btw zero is the transcript from thursday available on wiki? |
[13:11] | Zha Ewry: | Have any liberated bits moved yet? |
[13:12] | Zha Ewry: | Or is it still all on the old message pipes? |
[13:12] | Kooky Jetaime: | whoops, I crashed jira. |
[13:12] | Zero Linden: | Of course, judging from the internal e-mail I'm getting about it - it may take a month or so before we get in the swing of it and can really avoid most of the requireed viewer updates |
[13:12] | Saijanai Kuhn: | something is different. The group IM bug almost went away completely |
[13:12] | Zero Linden: | Rex - sorry, I'm behind on transcripts |
[13:12] | Zero Linden: | will try to get them all done soon |
[13:12] | Zero Linden: | and there was no Thursday - I was on vacation |
[13:12] | Saijanai Kuhn: | so obviously it is available... |
[13:13] | Zero Linden: | Or rather, the kids were on vacation, I was working on as an usher! |
[13:13] | Rex Cronon: | oh, am i lucky, or what? just when i couldn't make it, there was no office hours:) |
[13:14] | Rex Cronon: | is everybody using speach? |
[13:14] | Zero Linden: | nope |
[13:14] | Saijanai Kuhn: | is there an agenda for today, or is it just a let's pat Zero on the Back Day? |
[13:14] | Wyn Galbraith: | Not using it to talk, just listen. |
[13:14] | Zero Linden: | no no - hell with back pats |
[13:14] | Zero Linden: | (but thank you just the same) |
[13:15] | Zero Linden: | no agenda - so, what's on folks' minds? |
[13:15] | Wyn Galbraith: | Megaprims. |
[13:15] | Rex Cronon: | i have a problem zero |
[13:15] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I was VERY impressed. It was completely smooth for me, and the IM bug just disappeared until peak hours and was very rare even thn |
[13:15] | Zero Linden: | Thanks, Saj. Go fort it Rex |
[13:16] | Rex Cronon: | when i rezz some of my things they are deleted right away, at least when i am at SWT(sandbox-weapons testing) |
[13:16] | Zero Linden: | Hmmm..... as in deleted and returned, or just "poof"? |
[13:16] | Rex Cronon: | pooof |
[13:16] | Zero Linden: | well, there used to be sandbox specific code in the system (which, of course, private sandboxes couldn't use) |
[13:17] | Zero Linden: | but I thought we took all of that out months ago |
[13:17] | Kooky Jetaime: | Last I knew the sandboxes are 5 hour returns. |
[13:17] | Rex Cronon: | oh, and it happened at rausch too |
[13:17] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I've seen the behavior recently. Eventually things how uup in the trash though |
[13:17] | Squirrel Wood: | could it be due to packet loss ? |
[13:17] | Saijanai Kuhn: | things show up |
[13:17] | Zero Linden: | Otherwise - things should be the same in a sandbox region |
[13:18] | Zero Linden: | well, there have been a bunch of changes to mitigate inventory loss |
[13:18] | Rex Cronon: | those are things that i scripted and build myself, so i don't really care if they get deleted |
[13:18] | Zero Linden: | and some of them do involve being more careful with the protocol, and if things don't look hunky-dory, returning the objects |
[13:18] | Rex Cronon: | i just want to know way the go "poof" without any messages or warnings or errors |
[13:18] | Rex Cronon: | why* |
[13:19] | Zero Linden: | So it is possible, I believe, if you are in a high lag area, for stuff to start to rez and then fail - disappearing |
[13:19] | Rex Cronon: | yes is true lag |
[13:19] | Kooky Jetaime: | to poof a prim without warning/errors/no trash is llDie(); |
[13:19] | Zero Linden: | Well - when things start to fail, I think we get paranoid about sending more messages... but that is a bit of a hunch - it is more likely that the loss mitigation code is just 1st generation |
[13:19] | Zero Linden: | Kooky - it should end up somewhere. |
[13:19] | Rex Cronon: | when u say protocol, u mean http? none of those scripted objects used http |
[13:20] | Kooky Jetaime: | llDie is a direct kill, it goes into the Ether |
[13:20] | Kooky Jetaime: | by design as far as I know |
[13:20] | Zero Linden: | no no - I mean the protocols we use between viewr / sim / dataserver / asset server for rezing an object |
[13:20] | Kooky Jetaime: | though I read Rex wrong when I said that |
[13:20] | Zero Linden: | realize that rezing an object is a rather complex dance: |
[13:20] | Zero Linden: | viewer says: "put this inventory item here" |
[13:20] | Zero Linden: | sim checks that you can put something there |
[13:20] | Zero Linden: | sim gets details from inventory DB |
[13:21] | Zero Linden: | sim checks all perms |
[13:21] | Rex Cronon: | oh, i can see it, i gives me a message that is alive than it goes poof |
[13:21] | Zero Linden: | sim has to go get asset from asset store |
[13:21] | Rex Cronon: | it gives* |
[13:21] | Zero Linden: | sim starts to instantiate the item in world |
[13:21] | Zero Linden: | sim may have to remove from inveontory if no-copy |
[13:21] | Zero Linden: | sim tells viewers |
[13:21] | Zero Linden: | etc.... |
[13:22] | Zero Linden: | Rex - if the script starts executing, enough to say "i'm here" - then we are beyond the code I'm talking about |
[13:22] | Zero Linden: | all of this happens before the scripts get scheduled |
[13:22] | Kooky Jetaime: | Sounds like a self-destruct is built into it |
[13:23] | Zero Linden: | so - if after talking to you it disappears |
[13:23] | Squirrel Wood: | is it a temp object mayhaps? |
[13:23] | Zero Linden: | there are two options |
[13:23] | Zero Linden: | well, several |
[13:23] | Rex Cronon: | my self-destruct tells me when it happens. so is not my script that kills it |
[13:23] | Kooky Jetaime: | Drop it on noscript land and see if it poofs would be a good simple one |
[13:23] | Zero Linden: | The "user error" scenarios: it did execute llDie(), or is temp-on-rez, or was set "sandbox" and moved to far, etc... |
[13:24] | Rex Cronon: | is not a temp object |
[13:24] | Zero Linden: | And the system ones: It is there, but the viewer lost the update... you're just not seeing it |
[13:24] | Kooky Jetaime: | if its yours, drop it on the ground in noscript land then open the script and set it to not running |
[13:24] | Zero Linden: | and unless it moves, you won't get an update |
[13:24] | Kooky Jetaime: | take it and edit it whever and follow the code |
[13:24] | Zero Linden: | OR - the system moved it somehow |
[13:24] | Kooky Jetaime: | also if its copyable, you have a version you can rez on demand to see if it still poofers |
[13:25] | Squirrel Wood: | when the object suddenly vanishes the coordinates 0,0,0 of the sim may be worth checking |
[13:25] | Rex Cronon: | it is my own code. i went through it just to make sure. |
[13:25] | Zero Linden: | First things I'd do is rez it, watch it go poof, teleport to another sim more than two sims away, wait 1 min. then TP back |
[13:26] | Zero Linden: | then see if it is there - if so, then this is a viewer update bug - and could easily be UDP packet loss or mis-ordering |
[13:27] | Rex Cronon: | cold somebody have found a way to mimic an object and make the sim delete it? |
[13:27] | Rex Cronon: | could* |
[13:28] | Zero Linden: | not likely - the permission checks are on the sim, so they'd have to figure out a way to get your session key, by packet sniffing your stream |
[13:28] | Zero Linden: | so, someone on your local network, perhaps.... |
[13:28] | Squirrel Wood: | another common "reason" for objects going "poof"... you edit its z-position to be 25m and type 225 or 255 instead...... object goes out of select range and "vanishes" |
[13:29] | Zero Linden: | but in general, no, we don't trust viewers or objects enough for there to be many opportunities for spoofing |
[13:30] | Zha Ewry: | You can't trust the viewer |
[13:30] | Rex Cronon: | actually is defence weapon. when somebody starts rezzing hundreds of physical rotating prims(that are ment to crash the sim), i rezz my thing, and i pushes those physical thing out of the sim:) |
[13:30] | Zha Ewry: | After all who knows where it' sbeen? |
[13:31] | Kooky Jetaime: | That seems to be adding owod to the fire Rex |
[13:31] | Kooky Jetaime: | wood |
[13:31] | Zero Linden: | uh oh - now there's physics involved? Yikes - all bets are off... :-) |
[13:32] | Rex Cronon: | my thing is not physical, just looks for moving things, and gives them a "hard" shove:) |
[13:32] | Zha Ewry: | Is it that bad? When you add physics? I mean, the objects may be in motion, but |
[13:32] | Zero Linden imagnies that owood is sort of like el-wire | |
[13:32] | Zha Ewry: | But aren't they in sim, in the same way as non moving objects? |
[13:32] | Kooky Jetaime: | ... physical objects getting given a shove still doesn't help matters, it just adds to the collisions |
[13:32] | Kooky Jetaime: | and if your in nopush land |
[13:32] | Zero Linden: | Zha - it just means that there is more opportunity for the position of the object to get messed with, and that there |
[13:33] | Zero Linden: | are more object updates, and hence packet loss and re-ordering |
[13:33] | Rex Cronon: | has anybody here seen what happens to a sim if there are hundreds/thousands of physical objects faling/colliding/rotating? |
[13:33] | Zero Linden: | especially if there are 100s of new objects - some of those object updates aren't going to get through |
[13:33] | Kooky Jetaime: | yep |
[13:33] | Kooky Jetaime: | I killed my home with 50 physical boxes |
[13:33] | Squirrel Wood: | your best bet with griefers is still to report them so they can be taken care of accordingly ^^ |
[13:33] | Kooky Jetaime: | random shoving sin't gonna do a thing |
[13:33] | Zero Linden: | Rex - as grid monkey I've seen my share! |
[13:34] | Rex Cronon: | actually it works, if an objecs is sent outside the sim it goes poof:) |
[13:34] | Kooky Jetaime: | it will add more lag as the server is handling added physics interactions of getting shoved / movement / gravity |
[13:34] | Kooky Jetaime: | Hrm... only if its an solo island |
[13:34] | Zha Ewry nods | |
[13:34] | Kooky Jetaime: | since physical objects can go across boundrys I thought |
[13:34] | Zha Ewry: | The extra chances to lose stuff makes sense |
[13:34] | Zha Ewry: | Tho.. Not rex |
[13:34] | Zha Ewry: | Rex's object, if it isn't moving |
[13:35] | Rex Cronon: | my thing is not physical |
[13:35] | Zha Ewry: | But.. If the sim is in pain (which it presumabbly is) then.. it all gets messier |
[13:35] | Kooky Jetaime: | yours isn't but what your shoving is |
[13:35] | Zero Linden: | well - unless it is phantom, it is still in the physics engine |
[13:35] | Kooky Jetaime: | and considering physicals can go 4096 up |
[13:35] | peach Dagger: | rex did i see you at the sand box |
[13:35] | Saijanai Kuhn: | You're in a sandbox where griefing/anti griefing objects are normal |
[13:35] | Rex Cronon: | each phsical thing that gets deleted reduces load |
[13:36] | Zero Linden: | and if it is scripted to push, then even if it is phantom (is that possible) it is injecting energy into the physics simulation, which always, er, stirs things up |
[13:36] | Kooky Jetaime: | but you can't delete them by shoving them offworld as easilly as you think |
[13:36] | Squirrel Wood: | most "griefers" alts can be removed from a sim on entering if the sim has a central hub where everybody is forced to arrive. just needs a tiny little script for the removal ^^ |
[13:36] | Kooky Jetaime: | if I shot a bullet from my gun right now, it'll keep sailing until it hits something, even across sim lines |
[13:36] | Rex Cronon: | swt is surround by water, so anything that gets out, is deleted |
[13:37] | Kooky Jetaime: | I've gotten "Can't enter" messages from neighboring sims |
[13:37] | Squirrel Wood: | proper bullets set the die_on_sim_edge setting so they auto-die when leaving the sim |
[13:37] | Zero Linden: | So - since we're on the subject of technical ways of handling griefers - tell me what your throughs are |
[13:37] | Kooky Jetaime: | ok, so they arn't proper :) |
[13:37] | Zero Linden: | Sqwuirrel - I don't understand the central- telehub idea |
[13:37] | Kooky Jetaime: | and whats die_on_sim_edge? |
[13:37] | Terney McMillan: | The probem with this place is that people don't speak |
[13:37] | Terney McMillan: | Ive just been to the help island |
[13:38] | Rex Cronon: | has a list of keys, user sent home if a know key |
[13:38] | Terney McMillan: | Theres 20 people there doing nothing |
[13:38] | Squirrel Wood: | When everyone arrives in one spot you can do an age check and send anyone younger or older than a given number of days home |
[13:38] | Wyn Galbraith: | Heya Tree. |
[13:38] | Zero Linden: | Terney - welcome to my office hours, please sit and join us |
[13:38] | Kooky Jetaime: | yep |
[13:38] | Zero Linden: | ah - you mean at a privatly run sandbox |
[13:38] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Terry there are plenty of places where people know how to speak. Try the second life library great conversations |
[13:38] | Squirrel Wood: | And since most griefer alts are less than three or so days old it works quite well |
[13:38] | Tree Kyomoon: | hello folks...zero good to see you made it back from vacation safe! |
[13:38] | Kooky Jetaime: | Dark City / Toxia / Others do the age check thing |
[13:38] | Terney McMillan: | Ive just signed up today you see. |
[13:38] | Rex Cronon: | hi tree |
[13:39] | Tree Kyomoon: | hey rex and wyn :) |
[13:39] | Kooky Jetaime: | see squirrel, people wanna let you ahve the ring all to yerself :) |
[13:39] | Rex Cronon: | terney try NCI, a nice place fore new people |
[13:39] | Wyn Galbraith smiles. | |
[13:39] | Tree Kyomoon: | zha good to see you |
[13:39] | Zha Ewry: | Hello tree |
[13:39] | Terney McMillan: | Ok, no worries Ill leave |
[13:39] | Rex Cronon: | no |
[13:39] | Wyn Galbraith: | You dont have to leave. |
[13:40] | Rex Cronon: | i didn't meant to tell u to go |
[13:40] | Wyn Galbraith: | All are welcome... |
[13:40] | Terney McMillan: | Ah right |
[13:40] | Kooky Jetaime: | it does get a bit techy, just be warned, but your welcome :) |
[13:40] | Terney McMillan: | Im quite the geek myself haha |
[13:40] | Terney McMillan: | Minus the scipting knowledge |
[13:40] | Kooky Jetaime: | So, squirrel, die on sim edge, what ya talking about? |
[13:40] | Terney McMillan: | r* |
[13:40] | Wyn Galbraith: | Then you're in the geeky place to be. |
[13:40] | Zero Linden: | These are my office hours - as you may or may not know, anyone with the last name Linden works for the company Linden Lab that runs SL |
[13:41] | Zero Linden: | I'm here to meet with residetns and discuss technical design of SL |
[13:41] | Wyn Galbraith: | You can set objects to die at the edge of the sim. |
[13:41] | Kooky Jetaime: | where/how? not finding anything on the wiki |
[13:41] | Wyn Galbraith: | So they don't go wandering from sim to sim. |
[13:41] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Aero, at some point before you leave, I'd like to ask a quick (maybe) question about an API design |
[13:41] | Zero Linden: | reference to STATUS_DIE_AT_EDGE: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetStatus |
[13:41] | Saijanai Kuhn: | *Zero |
[13:41] | Kooky Jetaime: | ah, thanks |
[13:41] | Terney McMillan: | Oh, I was wondering btw, not sure if its the right time to ask, is SL been written for dual core yet if at all? |
[13:42] | Zero Linden: | Saij, so noted |
[13:42] | Kooky Jetaime: | I run it dual core.. |
[13:42] | Kooky Jetaime: | it runs just fine for me.. now if we can get it running dual monitor...zero :) |
[13:42] | Terney McMillan: | Yes, but unless its written for dual core, it jusr uses one core |
[13:42] | Terney McMillan: | = Half speed |
[13:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | It seems to run ballanced, but slow, on my dual G5 Mac |
[13:42] | Kooky Jetaime: | Terney, I run 35% on my system |
[13:42] | Rex Cronon: | u can get the code terney and chage it:) |
[13:43] | Kooky Jetaime: | its not even using one core to its max :) |
[13:43] | Zero Linden: | Teney - there is an experimental option - turn on debug menus, then Client menu > Rendering > Run Multiple Threads |
[13:43] | Kooky Jetaime: | I can surf, watch a dvd and SL at the saem time :) |
[13:43] | Terney McMillan: | Alright, no worries. I just got a newish comp and its lagging quite a bit sometimes |
[13:43] | Zero Linden: | that moves the texture decode to a second thread and hence core |
[13:43] | Kooky Jetaime: | lag can be one of three things, processor lag, video lag, sim lag, or communication lag |
[13:43] | Kooky Jetaime: | make that 4 |
[13:43] | Zero Linden: | since texture decode is a MAJOR CPU drain, that is help |
[13:43] | Terney McMillan: | Its the time it takes to update things |
[13:43] | Terney McMillan: | Yeah |
[13:43] | Kooky Jetaime: | Still could be 1 of the four |
[13:43] | Zero Linden: | Dual monitor? I can stretch my window across two monotiros, can't you? |
[13:44] | Kooky Jetaime: | will have to investigate |
[13:44] | Kooky Jetaime: | Nope.. SL only works on my primary |
[13:44] | Saijanai Kuhn: | There's a thread about setting your video card VRAM to 1/2 itsw max due to how SL handles textures |
[13:44] | Kooky Jetaime: | if I drag it to the second monitor, the scren don't update |
[13:44] | Tree Kyomoon: | zero did you get my posting on yoru blog about cookies? |
[13:44] | Zero Linden: | Kooky - alas, second monitors and OpenGL aren't well supported across all video drivers - |
[13:44] | Kooky Jetaime: | at least I'm not on ati :) |
[13:45] | Kooky Jetaime: | and at least I can still use my other window.. I put a game on yesterday, I lose use of my second monitor when its on |
[13:45] | Zero Linden: | I'm sorry Tree, no - I don't see it on the Wiki discussion page |
[13:45] | Zero Linden: | posting on my blog? |
[13:45] | Tree Kyomoon: | hmm I think it was on a wiki, it was the link you gave me just before you left |
[13:46] | Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you: | |
[13:46] | Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Cleanliness is next to impossible. | |
[13:46] | Tree Kyomoon: | i put up a use case |
[13:46] | Zero Linden: | Saij. - what was your question? |
[13:46] | Zero Linden: | http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/Discussion |
[13:46] | Kooky Jetaime: | Guess the squirrel got her cookies |
[13:46] | Saijanai Kuhn: | ah, ,thanks Zero. I've been contemplating the issue with SCulpties animations being cached on the client. .. |
[13:47] | Tree Kyomoon: | any hope of higher rez sculpties? |
[13:47] | Saijanai Kuhn: | All the options that have been discussed so far have been for single prims |
[13:47] | Squirrel Wood: | ^^ |
[13:47] | Zero Linden: | Saij - as in the sculptie animation hack with making it be the media texture? |
[13:47] | Wyn Galbraith: | LOL @ Squirrel's cookies |
[13:47] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I came up with a little hack that might work for multiple prims |
[13:47] | Kooky Jetaime: | Oooooooohhhhhhhhh |
[13:47] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes my post is right there, llHTTPRequest |
[13:47] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I stuck a preliminary API at the bottom of Qarl's jira about media streaming |
[13:48] | Zero Linden: | ah - I was looking for the keyword cookies in the title |
[13:48] | Tree Kyomoon: | oh sorry about that :) |
[13:48] | Saijanai Kuhn: | https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1336 |
[13:48] | Saijanai Kuhn: | it has nothing to do with QT and sculpties directly, it was just a coneventient place to put a brainstormed API and refer people |
[13:48] | Saijanai Kuhn: | my question is: can it work? |
[13:49] | Kooky Jetaime: | Thanks Squirrel |
[13:49] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the idea is to collate all the sculpt maps for a single prim and store it server side and get a reference handle back. Repeat for all prims. Then supply those references in a single call and get a collated reference |
[13:49] | Zero Linden: | Saijanai - I doubt it - expecting anything in LSL ot be able to keep up with frame updates is hopeful |
[13:50] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I'm afraid that I haven't made myself at all clear |
[13:50] | Zero Linden: | secondly - we don't have ANY media support on the sims |
[13:50] | Zero Linden: | there is no Quicktime code on the sim |
[13:50] | Saijanai Kuhn: | even less clear and getting colder :-( |
[13:50] | Terney McMillan: | Why use Quicktime? |
[13:50] | Terney McMillan: | Jw |
[13:50] | Tree Kyomoon: | right so you couldnt possibly render the qt info to a surface |
[13:50] | Kooky Jetaime: | quicktime works :) |
[13:50] | Tree Kyomoon: | because the client doesnt know what it is |
[13:50] | Zero Linden: | Teney- that is what we use for handling streaming media |
[13:50] | Saijanai Kuhn: | as I said, this was a convenient place to stick the code it has NOTHING TO DO WITH QT |
[13:50] | Zero Linden: | because who wants to reinvent that wheel! |
[13:50] | Saijanai Kuhn: | sorry |
[13:51] | Terney McMillan: | Alright |
[13:51] | Kooky Jetaime raises his hand | |
[13:51] | Terney McMillan: | Sorry about that |
[13:51] | Tree Kyomoon: | so higher rez sculpties? |
[13:51] | Kooky Jetaime: | I reinvent wheels all the tiem |
[13:51] | Tree Kyomoon: | nudge nudge |
[13:51] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the idea is that Qarl wants to cache the textures for sculpt maps o n the client side as do all sculpty makers that want animation |
[13:51] | Kooky Jetaime: | too bad tgas can't be multiframed, like gifs...... |
[13:51] | Zero Linden: | Saijanai - what would a sculptie animation be other than an animation stream of some form? |
[13:51] | Tree Kyomoon: | pngs can be multiframes |
[13:52] | Saijanai Kuhn: | my idea was just to allow caching to be a two stage process: cache one sculpty's animation textures then combine it with another's |
[13:52] | Kooky Jetaime: | Why couldn't you play a sculpti anim similar to playing a regular animation |
[13:52] | Tree Kyomoon: | thats what most folks do |
[13:52] | Squirrel Wood: | Mayhaps animated sculpties could use textures in the same way as the normal texture animation where you basically break the texture into several tiles ? |
[13:52] | Saijanai Kuhn: | a texture animation where each frame is a 64x64 square of pixels on a larger texture |
[13:52] | Zero Linden: | Kooky - i believe that is what happens now |
[13:52] | Kooky Jetaime: | ok, |
[13:52] | Zero Linden: | Saijanai - AH that kind of animation - all in one frame |
[13:52] | Kooky Jetaime: | I'll shut up, don't know what I'm talking about..don't play with sculpties :) |
[13:53] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the point isn't how the server sends the info to hte client, but how the client can specify multiple prims for animation |
[13:53] | Saijanai Kuhn: | or rather how a script can |
[13:53] | Saijanai Kuhn: | right now, there's no way to start multiple animations with one call |
[13:53] | Tree Kyomoon: | right so you could rez and map sculpties via script? |
[13:53] | Zero Linden: | but in that case, what you are really asking is to do sculptie map animation the same we we do other texture animations - |
[13:53] | Zero Linden: | of course, that is ALL done viewer side |
[13:54] | Saijanai Kuhn: | yes, but allow multiple prims to use the same map, but in a different way |
[13:54] | Saijanai Kuhn: | intead of m frames, you have m frames of n sculpties |
[13:54] | Saijanai Kuhn: | each row of tiles is a frame. Each column of the tiles is for a different culpty |
[13:54] | Zero Linden: | Yes - I see - it is possible, though I wonder how general the technique is ... |
[13:54] | Zha Ewry thinks not too general | |
[13:55] | Saijanai Kuhn: | quite general. The best sculpty animations are already using multiple sculpties |
[13:55] | Tree Kyomoon: | sounds pretty specialized |
[13:55] | Zero Linden: | and if there wouldn't be a more general structure for manaing animation sets - of regular textures too... |
[13:55] | Terney McMillan: | Is this about improving the graphics of the avatars etc? Because I think its like more of a priority to make the game run smoothly first |
[13:55] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I saw a horse drawing a haywagon the other day. Each leg was its own animation |
[13:55] | Kooky Jetaime: | No |
[13:55] | Zero Linden: | of course... at this point we're getting dangerously close to SMIL or some such |
[13:55] | Kooky Jetaime: | this is regarding one specific type of prim |
[13:55] | Terney McMillan: | Alright |
[13:56] | Zero Linden thinkgs game? what game? | |
[13:56] | Zero Linden smiles | |
[13:56] | Saijanai Kuhn: | its a relatively simple API. only a few calls: createanimationcache(sculpty, [map_list}, blah); |
[13:56] | Saijanai Kuhn: | with a animatinHandle = at the front |
[13:56] | Zero Linden: | Saijanai- there are no simple APIs! Changes to LSL are forever and we need to think very carefully about each and everyone |
[13:56] | Tree Kyomoon: | so....higher rez sculpties? |
[13:56] | Kooky Jetaime: | Maybe we need some simple apis :) |
[13:57] | Zero Linden: | animation handles, or any kind of handle, introduces a resource concept that then has to be managed |
[13:57] | Zero Linden: | and LSL isn't so good at that |
[13:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | then after you've gotten several handles for several sculpties, animationcache = (createanimationhandle( [handle1, handle2,...]);. |
[13:57] | Zero Linden: | when do they get cleaned up? |
[13:57] | Zero Linden: | multiple references? |
[13:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | llstartANimation(animationcache); |
[13:57] | Zero Linden: | etc? |
[13:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | good question. |
[13:57] | Rex Cronon: | than either lsl has to change, or mono has to take over |
[13:57] | Zha Ewry: | Hard question |
[13:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | state changes erase references to listen handles |
[13:57] | Zha Ewry: | Dangling reds are messy |
[13:58] | Zha Ewry: | *refs |
[13:58] | Zero Linden: | Remember that a sim can have thousands of scripts, so we try to avoid things with unbounded memory use |
[13:58] | Zha Ewry: | And ref counting is costly |
[13:58] | Kooky Jetaime isn't holding his breath on any updates. | |
[13:58] | Saijanai Kuhn: | that might not make sense for sculpties, but the other side of the question is: are multiprim animations simply not allowed except viea the current kludge? |
[13:58] | Zero Linden contemplates dangling reds..... | |
[13:58] | Tree Kyomoon: | hey...we just had some major updates! messaging?? |
[13:58] | Kooky Jetaime: | Updates such as: Havoc 4, Mono |
[13:58] | Rex Cronon: | what kludge? |
[13:58] | Zha Ewry: | And mono may help slightly on rersource use.. but not that much, as data space, is already half of script space |
[13:59] | Zero Linden: | Saijanai- yes - right now there hasn't been much time to think about the kind of coordination and resource managment that such a facitlity would require |
[13:59] | Saijanai Kuhn: | start one sculpty. Start the next start the next, change the map, change the map, change the map... |
[13:59] | Terney McMillan: | This convos confusing me ;) So I htink its time I take my leave. Anywhere good for a new person to go? |
[13:59] | Zero Linden: | mind you - people would love such things not just for textures and sculptie maps, but also things like prim parameter changes |
[13:59] | Saijanai Kuhn: | second life library is a great place |
[13:59] | Tree Kyomoon: | sculpties are stopgap anyway right? |
[13:59] | Bridie Linden: | I've gotta run - thanks all, Zero for letting me sit in. |
[13:59] | Zero Linden: | whitness the lotus |
[13:59] | Terney McMillan: | Alright thanks |
[13:59] | Zero Linden: | all those opening and closing of leaves |
[13:59] | Kooky Jetaime: | bye bye birdie |
[13:59] | Kooky Jetaime: | bridie |
[13:59] | Tree Kyomoon: | I mean, we will enventually have access to real nurbs and stuff right? |
[14:00] | Zero Linden: | is done thtough very complex scripting that would really be more like an animation |
[14:00] | Wyn Galbraith: | Go everywhere :) |
[14:00] | Kooky Jetaime: | Tree - who knows maybe in 5 years? |
[14:00] | Rex Cronon: | bye bridie |
[14:00] | Kooky Jetaime: | or 10 |
[14:00] | Zero Linden: | Well all - |
[14:00] | Tree Kyomoon: | no way, I say a year |
[14:00] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I guess it was not at all asimple question... |
[14:00] | Zero Linden: | alas, it is 2pm and I have another meeting .... so I must big a quick adieu |
[14:00] | Wyn Galbraith: | bye bye Bridie, Bridie bye bye |
[14:00] | Zero Linden: | laters all! |
[14:00] | Saijanai Kuhn: | take care Zero |
[14:00] | Zero Linden: | I'll be here thursday this week |