User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 19

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:04] Laetizia Coronet: that may be true yes
[13:04] Laetizia Coronet: ah there's Zero
[13:04] Zero Linden: hello hello
[13:04] Khamon Fate: hi zero
[13:04] Laetizia Coronet: hi Zero... just here to shoot a portrait of you if you don't mind
[13:05] Khamon Fate: ready to speak as yoda we are
[13:05] Laetizia Coronet: love that avi by the way, you see preecious little African looking people
[13:05] Zero Linden: Oh - a portrat?
[13:05] Zero Linden: Indeed you do!
[13:05] Laetizia Coronet: yes I am collecting Lindens for a collage
[13:06] Zero Linden: perhaps I should change a bit...
[13:06] Laetizia Coronet: lol no need
[13:06] Laetizia Coronet: don't let me bother your tech talk
[13:06] Khamon Fate: hamlet talked about that long ago, how black people he knew would consistently build asian or white avs in SL
[13:06] Zero Linden: welcome all
[13:06] Laetizia Coronet: yes Khamon I read that
[13:06] Khamon Fate: i think he might'be blogged about it
[13:06] Wyn Galbraith returns.
[13:07] Khamon Fate: during february oh 2004 or so
[13:07] Zero Linden: It was more recent than that I think
[13:07] Laetizia Coronet: yes I guess Jan 07
[13:07] Khamon Fate: he must still be following the trend
[13:07] Laetizia Coronet: but standard SL noob options are all white / Asian
[13:08] Khamon Fate: this is true
[13:08] Zero Linden: I think this is a problem, personally!
[13:08] Laetizia Coronet: wait until the Sharptons find out -> big stink guaranteed
[13:08] Khamon Fate: there should be at least one green one
[13:08] Laetizia Coronet: they will say you can be either white or an animal and that is undeniably true
[13:08] Wyn Galbraith loves Zero's AV, "Why am I standing."
[13:09] Khamon Fate: i find myself occassionally floating off this seat 1/2 a meter or so
[13:09] Zero Linden: Thanks.... the original Zero AV had a hole through the middle.... but then I decided to do that just for my bear
[13:09] Khamon Fate: your seats are bugged zero. fix it.
[13:09] Wyn Galbraith: Should be able to choose skin color on your first avatar.
[13:10] Khamon Fate: that seems a sensible, easy to implement option
[13:10] Laetizia Coronet: yes, offer some good freebie skin instead of the avatar things we get now
[13:10] Zero Linden: Still have to do a better version of that light
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: Maybe all avatar's should be grey till you pick a color ;)
[13:10] Khamon Fate: i don't wear a skin, this is just appearance colouring
[13:10] Zero Linden: Khamon - I just bought them, I didn't script 'em
[13:10] Laetizia Coronet: with lag as it is all avis ARE grey heheh
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: Exactly :)
[13:10] Khamon Fate: i wish i could put a hex code in the appearance box
[13:10] Khamon Fate: that'd be nice
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith sees grey people.
[13:11] Zero Linden: "I see grey avatars..... everywhere!"
[13:11] Khamon Fate: you fix everything zero. it's what you do. we depend on you.
[13:11] Jurin Juran: khamon, i'd rather float off a seat, than sink 15M underground
[13:11] Laetizia Coronet: I'll sell 50% grey skins and hair soon, just to fool people ;)
[13:11] Zero Linden: Ya know, I'm pretty sure that hex code for skin color doens't quite capture it all....
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith likes being underground.
[13:11] Jurin Juran: lol wyn
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith: Hey why can't we dig underground, Zero?
[13:12] Zero Linden: Well - I just don't know....
[13:12] Khamon Fate: right now we just have integer choices
[13:12] Wyn Galbraith: I mean really dig, like caves.
[13:12] Stevex Janus: It would be nice to be able to "breed" two avitarts and get a "mixed" result.
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: /sit
[13:12] Zero Linden: Okay all - welcome to Zero's office hours!
[13:12] Laetizia Coronet: avitarts... I like the wordplay, I know a few lol
[13:12] Wyn Galbraith: LOL @ Stevex
[13:12] Khamon Fate: because the ground is a mesh that doesn't accomodate negative space
[13:12] Zero Linden: As always, the transcript will be posted on the blog (assuming I don't crash a zillion times like last time...)
[13:12] Khamon Fate: it has no actual depth
[13:12] Khamon Fate: zero
[13:13] Khamon Fate: types
[13:13] Khamon Fate: between
[13:13] Khamon Fate: crashes
[13:13] Wyn Galbraith super glues Zero to SL.
[13:13] Laetizia Coronet: ok bye all, thanks for te opportunity Zero
[13:13] Zero Linden: Wellcome Laetizia
[13:13] Khamon Fate: see you laeti
[13:13] Wyn Galbraith: Not going to stay? You have to now, it's payment.
[13:13] Khamon Fate: zero reveals all
[13:13] Laetizia Coronet: can't... RL exists as well ;)
[13:13] Zero Linden: So - as you can see - I've had some takers from the dev group
[13:13] Wyn Galbraith: Ah.
[13:13] Zero Linden: only took a little arm twisting
[13:14] Stevex Janus: seriously. It is hard to figure out how you want to look. But some times you know who you want to look like.
[13:14] Zero Linden: but we have two scheduled topics & guests
[13:14] Zero Linden: they are there on the board and on the wiki
[13:14] Wyn Galbraith: What really is Studio Icehouse? I hate to admit I have no clue.
[13:15] Khamon Fate: All Hail The Central Icehouse!
[13:15] Zero Linden: AH
[13:15] Wyn Galbraith marks down July 10th, "QA that's me."
[13:15] Zero Linden: Well, this is a good topic -- Studios
[13:15] Zero Linden: Linden has a bit of a different take on organizing Engineering
[13:16] Zero Linden: Rather than have middle managers that are assigned (chartered? annointed? crowned?) with specific functional areas,
[13:16] Zero Linden: and have engineers assigned to them...
[13:16] Zero Linden: we have studios
[13:16] Wyn Galbraith: Wow, I'm impressed, that's a fantastic idea.
[13:16] Zero Linden: a Studio is when a more senior engineer wants to lead a serious of projects over a longer term... say a year or more
[13:17] Zero Linden: The set of projects is choosen / designed by that engineer, who becomes a "Studio Directory"
[13:17] Zero Linden: er
[13:17] Wyn Galbraith: Autodesk tried for years to create a new way of organizing engineering.
[13:17] Zero Linden: Director
[13:17] Zero Linden: In this case, that is me, and my Studio is Studio Icehouse
[13:17] Wyn Galbraith: Every release we went through re-organizations.
[13:17] Zero Linden: Engineers are free to work in a studio if they like the projects and the work
[13:17] Zero Linden: they are free to move to other studios as they see fit
[13:17] Wyn Galbraith is now knowledgable and in love with Icehouse :)
[13:18] Khamon Fate: Is HetGrid the grid in a box project?
[13:18] Stevex Janus: So wehen you say infrastructure do you mean building in the world, or in the SL code base?
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn pulls out suggetsion box...
[13:18] Wyn Galbraith: It sounds like, even though LL has growing pains, it is a company that thinks outside of the box.
[13:18] Zero Linden: The key is that rather than have top level execs choose the annointed projects - we have smart folks attempt to build cohesive projects sets and attract engineers to work on them
[13:18] Zero Linden: if it isn't a good idea, folks vote with their feet
[13:18] Zero Linden: Or, if the area is done, the studio can just disolve
[13:19] Zero Linden: The key is that it is focused around what a Studio Director wants to get done, and what the individual engineers decided to sign up to do
[13:19] Wyn Galbraith: Tell those at LL, Well done, from someone who's been through the mill of software companies. :D
[13:19] Khamon Fate: How does the studio method mesh with feature suggestions in JIRA?
[13:19] Zero Linden: This ensures that the "wisdom of the masses", in this case the mass of Linden engineers, decides the right course of action
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith: Is there a list of the active Studios or is that company private?
[13:20] Khamon Fate: How many people form the "mass of Linden engineers?"
[13:21] Khamon Fate: roughly
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn wishes that he was 30 years younger and could go work for LL
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn would even wear SHOES!!!!
[13:21] Wyn Galbraith does too.
[13:22] Wyn Galbraith wears moccasons in RL, "It's as close as I can get to bare feet in the work enviroment."
[13:22] Zero Linden: Jira forms a list of suggestions, bugs and ideas from which the Studio draws what to do. Each studio will pull things from Jira into a
[13:22] Zero Linden: a set of projects that make some sense (according to the Studio director)
[13:22] Wyn Galbraith: So are there project managers at LL?
[13:22] Zero Linden: There are about 30 or so engineers at the moment - but growing.....
[13:22] Zero Linden: ... by the way, we are hiring!
[13:23] Duriel Phobos shouts: HELP!!!!
[13:23] Zero Linden: There are five studios: Icehouse, Da Boom, Ator, Enzo and Blacklight
[13:23] Squirrel Wood: rezrezrezrez
[13:23] Duriel Phobos shouts: YOU! HELP MEEEE!
[13:23] Wyn Galbraith: I don't know Zero, I didn't qualify as a in-world Liaison, how can I dream of making it into a higher level of LL?
[13:24] Duriel Phobos shouts: HELP MEEE!
[13:24] Zero Linden: Oh - there is also studio Rx (resident experience)
[13:24] Duriel Phobos shouts: HELP ME!
[13:24] Duriel Phobos shouts: IM IN TEH WORM
[13:25] Zero Linden: There are project managers - or product managers - or program managers - or.... er..... P* Managers!
[13:25] Wyn Galbraith shouts: THEN GET OUT! DURIEL
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: manglers might be a better term...
[13:25] Wyn Galbraith: Or Ptth managers?
[13:25] Wyn Galbraith: Manglers, like that.
[13:25] Zero Linden: Some work closely with studios, some work closely with particular projects, and they do all the kinds of things, those P* Managers tend to do
[13:25] Jurin Juran: P*Managers..LOL Zero
[13:25] Wyn Galbraith: Da Boom sounds interesting.
[13:26] Zero Linden: rahter than have a fixed set of functions of that role, we let each case decide what is needed
[13:26] Squirrel Wood: Meep. I speak two languages, have several years experience of gm/admin work on a mmo, experience training new gms... do have good sarcastic humor, can outwit troublemakers.... would I qualify as Liaison? :p
[13:26] Zero Linden: I don't know, Squirrel... I don't hire Liaisons - I write C++ classes!
[13:27] Saijanai Kuhn ha ADHD...
[13:27] Wyn Galbraith: Have to apply and see Squirrel.
[13:27] Squirrel Wood: might try
[13:27] Wyn Galbraith: Good luck. I get to try again in 6 months ;)
[13:27] Zero Linden: So - I think there is a very interesting parallel here in how Linden manages engineering and the actual code
[13:28] Zero Linden: Bear with me....
[13:28] Zero Linden: So, when I showed up at Linden Lab there were 16 engineers
[13:28] Zero Linden: and we all sat in a room
[13:28] Zero Linden: and we all just coded and did what needed to be done
[13:28] Wyn Galbraith: It sounds like it, but it also sounds like it's a great way to apply resources. Talent isn't locked in to one project or the other, but can flow as needed.
[13:28] Zero Linden: We all worked on all parts of the code
[13:28] Zero Linden: and we as a group were very tightly coupled
[13:28] Wyn Galbraith: That's good.
[13:29] Zero Linden: Look at this image of the grid today
[13:29] Wyn Galbraith: And look what came ou of it.
[13:29] Wyn Galbraith: *out
[13:29] Zero Linden: Hmmmm...... This is a very tightly integrated system where there is a lot of cross communication
[13:30] Zero Linden: So - good news is that it got an incredible amount of functionality out the door, up and running, very quickly
[13:30] Zero Linden: and it worked
[13:30] Zero Linden: NOW
[13:30] Wyn Galbraith nods, "Which is needed for healthy development IMHO.
[13:30] Zero Linden: Engineering started to grow, and that engineering model didn't work
[13:30] Zero Linden: So we recreate what is good about that model, but in a serious of independent groups called studios
[13:31] Zero Linden: Yet we retain a lot of flexibility in those groups
[13:31] Zero Linden: Hmmmmm...
[13:31] Zero Linden: And now, this is the new structure we are going to....
[13:31] Zero Linden: Here are two groups of more loosely coupled servers
[13:31] Zero Linden: with one purpose, but less coupling
[13:31] Zero Linden: and one can easily imagine another Region Domain here......
[13:31] Zero Linden: So -
[13:32] Mug of Coffee : Hot strong coffee!!
[13:32] Zero Linden: I think this really proves the adage "Software has the structure of the organization that created it."
[13:33] Khamon Fate: Is this picture a HetGrid?
[13:33] Khamon Fate: What's a HetGrid?
[13:33] Zero Linden: Hmmmm.... internal web site lists 49 people in Development - though some of those are PMs and some are other related folks
[13:34] Zero Linden: so, perhaps 40 or so engineers, which includes the web dev. team
[13:34] Zero Linden: No, that isn't a picture of a HetGrid
[13:34] Zero Linden: "HetGrid" is "Heterogenous Grid" -
[13:34] Zero Linden: meaning, different versions of the simulator running at the same time
[13:35] Khamon Fate: Oh, I was hoping it was a grid in a box.
[13:35] Zero Linden: some regions this version, other regions that
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: ooh ooh...
[13:35] Zero Linden: I'll leave it at that - as Tess is going to come next week and talk about it
[13:35] Zero Linden: in detail
[13:35] Khamon Fate: I happy to praise the decoupling though.
[13:35] Zero Linden: Be here or be "UniGrid"
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn:
[13:36] Khamon Fate: til Undergrid come
[13:36] Wyn Galbraith: UnderGrid should be UnderGround ;)
[13:36] Zero Linden: Yes - So, that "ultimate fix" (I do dislike anything with "Ultimate" in the title...)
[13:36] Zero Linden: is sort of HetGrid
[13:36] Zero Linden: only we beleve heavily in compatibility
[13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: it was ironoic. There's room for SL 3.0 etc
[13:37] Zero Linden: I realized....
[13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: so do I. Just there's bugs in current version that people exploit heavely and I hate to see those enshrined...
[13:37] Zero Linden: Well, it isn't always black and white....
[13:38] Zero Linden: for example, some LSL calls have goofy, nay, awful semantics...
[13:38] Zero Linden: we could "fix" them so the library was squeaky clean
[13:38] Zero Linden: or just sigh and add newer calls that do things in a more sane fashion, and leave the old for all those old scripts out there
[13:38] Squirrel Wood: lsl... When will we get autocompletion? and when will the commands not be case sensitive or auto-format to the proper case? ^^
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, understood.
[13:39] Zero Linden: You have the source to the editor - please!
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: some things are just workarounds that cause their own problems...
[13:39] Zero Linden: We will not be working on the editor much in the near term -- many more big issues than that - and again, it is something the open source community can do
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: So the LSL editor is part of the viewer.
[13:39] Stevex Janus: API should have a used by date.
[13:40] Zero Linden: By the way, many people use external editors with LSL modes - I for one use SubEthaEdit
[13:40] Zero Linden: Wyn, yes
[13:40] Zero Linden: Ha ha - exipring APIs....
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith uses TextPad for HTML, PHP and Java.
[13:40] Zero Linden: "This application best used by March 2010"
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: for instance, I would HATE to see THIS kludge survive a real joint system:. I did it as an advertisement for a need: v
[13:41] Stevex Janus: It would prevent bad interfaces living for ever.
[13:41] Zero Linden: Another trick, you can run your lsl source through the C++ preprocessor - and then you can #define and #include
[13:41] Zero Linden: ha ha - Squirrel - were it only that pretty
[13:41] Squirrel Wood: Oh well. C++ and I don't really like each other. I was brought up on turbo pascal, inline assembler code and basic :p
[13:42] Zero Linden: Actually, the asset server is a distributed, redundant file system
[13:42] Squirrel Wood gave you second life servers.
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn took FORTRAN IV back when it was cutting edge...
[13:43] Zero Linden: Languages in heavy use at Linden Lab: C++, Python, PHP and a smattering of Perl
[13:43] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[13:43] Zero Linden: Personally, I yearn for my old Smalltalk days.....
[13:43] Zha Ewry cheers with one hand at C++ and winces with the other
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: C++ (emi check), Python (working on it),PHP (Check), perl (check).
[13:44] Zha Ewry: Smalltalk.. Heh. You want a nice generational scavanger for that Zero?
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: have you ever asked Alan Kay to speak in SL? I'm sure he would love to
[13:44] Wyn Galbraith had those too, Squirrell, "C++ isn't that bad, from the little bit I've been exposed to. I had FORTRAN, IBM Assembler, forget which, CDC Cyber 3000 series machine language, COBOL, geeze what good are they now :)
[13:45] Zero Linden: Zha - I wrote one of the first - I worked on Apple Smalltalk with Dan Ingalls
[13:45] Zha Ewry: Cool
[13:45] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: are you a squeak fan, Zreo?
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero
[13:45] Wyn Galbraith: Cool.
[13:45] Zero Linden: Well yes and no - It is wonderful that a Smalltalk environment is finally available to all
[13:46] Zero Linden: And, it is a grandchild of Apple Samlltalk -- some of my code is still in that Image!
[13:46] Zero Linden: BUT - Smalltalk still suffers from many of the problems it had back when I was working on it twenty years ago
[13:46] Stevex Janus: high over head
[13:47] Zero Linden: the biggest being that it is a very awkward environemnt to deploy an application in, unless you want your users to be running the Smalltalk environment as well
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: in case anyone is wondering
[13:47] Zero Linden: No, the overhead is no longer an issue
[13:47] Zha Ewry: Version creep in objects...
[13:47] Zero Linden: Modern Smalltalk is as fast if not faster than, say, Python
[13:47] Zha Ewry had to beat developers with a stick on that issue
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: I like the SLang concept
[13:48] Zha Ewry: "We do not need 27 versions of "frame" honest, we don't"
[13:48] Zero Linden: Modern processors have got us to a point where the overhead of an interpreted dynamic langauge is less important than the flexibility and rapid devleopment it affords
[13:48] Zero Linden: and it's expressive power
[13:49] Stevex Janus: Tell taht to my desktop. Runing the client and compiling it as the same time is really slow :-)
[13:49] Zero Linden: Zha - there was a time when we counted every byte in those frames....... no longer!
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Stevex have you used Squeak? It's not thatbad
[13:49] Zero Linden: Well- neither of those are written in scripting langauge - and both are doing some of the few compute intensive tasks left:
[13:49] Stevex Janus: Nope.
[13:49] Zero Linden: 3D rendering and compiling
[13:49] Zha Ewry nods, "I dont care about the bytes, I care about the need to think about all 27 varients, because they diverge"
[13:50] Squirrel Wood: regarding coding stuff... SL used the FMod library which supports a plethora of different file formats.. why does SL not support those? Why must sound be in wav format? ^^
[13:50] Zero Linden: Zha - right but we had several (not 27, I don't think) varients as we wanted to use really tight ones when needed --- but yes, in general I agree, but we have the freedom and memory and CPU power now
[13:51] Zha Ewry: Yes
[13:51] Zero Linden: Squirrel - I don't know
[13:51] Zha Ewry: And I'd rather enforce good design in Smalltalk, then battle C++ to get it to allow the 3 frame varients i want.
[13:51] Zero Linden: Usually, most choices at LL are made to support the first, simplest thing that will work, and then let need drive the next set of features
[13:52] Wyn Galbraith remembers CP/M
[13:52] Zero Linden: I'd say that converting to .wav file format isn't much of a hurdle for folks for the small snippets you upload, hence, there isn't much pressure to do more
[13:52] Squirrel Wood: I've been playing around with fmod quite a bit and from what I have seen fmod will try to identify the file format you throw at it and play it if it can.
[13:52] Zero Linden: sure, it would be nice, but it isn't as important as many other things we coudl do
[13:53] Squirrel Wood: still a 10s mp3 would be a lot smaller than a wav file and thus downloaded faster? less strain on the network
[13:54] Zero Linden: I don't know about that - 10s is pretty short and I don't konw what the overhead of mp3 is.... but in the end, no, that's "a fart in a whirlwind" as Dan Ingalls used to say
[13:54] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[13:54] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[13:55] Khamon Fate: i have to run. thanks for hosting Zero
[13:55] Zero Linden: Thanks for coming, as always
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: fascinating stuff. Why do all the Smalltalk guys have a certain air about them?
[13:56] Wyn Galbraith: You mean age?
[13:56] Zero Linden: Becuase we all used the best development environment ever 20 years ago and we are still waiting for those features to appear in the development environments we have to use
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: wisdom?
[13:56] Zha Ewry nods
[13:56] Zha Ewry: "and, wonder why Java, and C# still hurt to use"
[13:56] Stevex Janus: Sounds like the lisp people that I know :-)
[13:57] Zero Linden: I still cannot point at a member function in a C++ file and find all callers of it.
[13:57] Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[13:57] Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: A place for everything and everything in its place. -- Isabella Mary Beeton, "The Book of Household Management" [Quoted in "VMS Internals and Data Structures", V4.4, when referring to memory management system services.]
[13:57] Wyn Galbraith: Of all the languages Java kicked my butt.
[13:57] Zero Linden: And I can only barely point at a function call and jump to the definition of it... maybe... some of the time.... unless this or that.... feh!
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn is still afraid to touch ix86 assembler
[13:57] Stevex Janus: Ther are some IDE that let you do that.
[13:58] Zero Linden: And don't get me going on debugging!
[13:58] Zero Linden: But, I recognize that Smalltalk can't accomplish what I need to, though mostly because of the way in which it is deployed..... sigh
[13:58] Zha Ewry: Ahh, you haven't lived until you done 4K base register code on 360s. x86 stuf fis easy
[13:58] Zero Linden: Zha ... I have! I have!
[13:59] Squirrel Wood: I love it how these fortune cookies are able to pick just the right fortunes to match the topic ^^
[13:59] Wyn Galbraith: Ah registers.
[13:59] Zha Ewry: And, yes, you don't see deployed smaltalk systems in real life very often
[13:59] Zha Ewry: Which is a shame
[13:59] Zero Linden: Stevex - for C++? Which? I'm running....
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: its part of the cheapo laptop initiative though.
[14:00] Stevex Janus: I used Saber C. A while back . And you could show callers and calliees in a a graph
[14:00] Squirrel Wood: humm.. do you think there will be a chance for scripts to get 24kb of memory in the forseeable future?
[14:00] Zero Linden: Ah - I went to college with the Saber C founders!
[14:00] Zha Ewry would gladly trade off total number of scirpts for bigger data spaces in the runs runnning
[14:00] Zha Ewry: *ones running
[14:00] Zha Ewry: (See old transcripts)
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: That sounds famiiar, Saber C.
[14:01] Zero Linden: doesn't work for C++ I don't think, and I don't think it works for pojects that make extensive use of 3rd party libraries
[14:01] Zha Ewry nods "Heck, try and meld C++, threads and shared memory, all in one program"
[14:02] Stevex Janus: Lost access to that account after I ldef school. So din't konw if it has been updated to C++
[14:03] Zero Linden: Well all - it has been another lovely hour
[14:03] Zha Ewry: Yes, indeed
[14:03] Zero Linden: I've got to get back to coding the under-world of SL
[14:03] Stevex Janus: Thanks
[14:03] Zha Ewry: Thanks, as always, Zero
[14:03] Harleen Gretzky: ty for hosting Zero
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: was fascinating. Will try to come by again
[14:03] Zero Linden: Next week - HetGrid w/Tess and others, please join us
[14:03] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks for the meeting Zero, always a pleasure.
[14:03] Zero Linden: Adios!