User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Apr 08

Zero Linden: Full house = sign of success! Zha Ewry: Dead laptop on its way to be fixed. I want my FPS back Gareth Ellison: down to business ladies and gentlemen? Lalinda Lovell: and puppies Jennifer Gallindo: hehe Saijanai Kuhn: full house = spammariffic avatar Gareth Ellison throws an orange at zero Lalinda Lovell: sai bad spammer Mastorian Kingsford: couch Morgaine Dinova: Zero: "full house" == "hit scalability limit" :-)) Zero Linden: Well all - welcome to my "scalability limit" office hours Morgaine Dinova: Hehe Gypsy Paz: lol Tao Takashi: Hi Gareth Ellison: if the sim was coded in python with live REPL zero could dynamically turn off server-side features to decrease lag ;) ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: seriously Rex Cronon: zero might need to put his office at corner of 4 sims:) Mastorian Kingsford: lmao Tao Takashi: or simply use IRC ;-) Zero Linden: What? and loose our intimate little chats? Zero Linden: Never! Gareth Ellison: IRC is actually sane Hulahoop Gadget [11] [=] You know you want a Hulahoop Gadget! Get one today on Hulahoop Island. =D Kiefer Schuttelanz: IRCap Gareth Ellison: or at least a bridge Kiefer Schuttelanz: xD Lalinda Lovell: use irc and we all save money Gareth Ellison: i'd go for a bridge ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: seriously ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: I don't need to buy shirts on IRC Gareth Ellison: scrap SL and this whole metaverse thing, let's just all go to IRC Zha Ewry: Dog food, eating of same Tao Takashi: lets make IRC interoperable instead! Lalinda Lovell: irc.secondlife.net Zero Linden: Wow - You're right - IRC is the way! Rookiie Roux: hehe Gareth Ellison puts on his ninja robe and cloak ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: we need irc with avatars Gareth Ellison: hey, how about 3D avatars? Trex Yao: .. Lalinda Lovell: sorry (TM) Gareth Ellison: in a 3D world? Gareth Ellison: with scripts ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: oh yeah! ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: that too! Tao Takashi: we might invent some way to create objects in IRC Rex Cronon: such a novel idea:) Gareth Ellison: hey, split it up into parcels of land Zero Linden: And the spec is already written! Gareth Ellison: across servers Gareth Ellison: wow! Zero Linden: Okay---- Saijanai Kuhn: And lag. Dont' forget the lag Gareth Ellison: we can call it second reality ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: except there would be way more cool than sl Gareth Ellison: ok, onto business Gareth Ellison: zero - agenda Zero Linden: Yes - agenda Lalinda Lovell: and we can all see eachs ip and dos each other Lalinda Lovell: jk Zero Linden: so far no one has made use of my spiffy agenda section on the Wiki Morgaine Dinova: Ah yeah, the lag must be part of the spec, or it wouldn't be authentic Saijanai Kuhn: had two issues pop up in dicussion. Mine and everyone else's Gareth Ellison: how about we all throw up what was said in AWGroupies meeting? Lalinda Lovell: not all of you please Zero Linden: So - I have one item - a secretary Lalinda Lovell: it lasted 9 hours didnt it Saijanai Kuhn: ? Lalinda Lovell: you want a secretary zero? Lalinda Lovell: i have a pen ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: wow ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: so few people on voice Saijanai Kuhn: for handling SLGOGP? Gareth Ellison: no transcripts on voice Tao Takashi still wants a better name and URL :) ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: right Zero Linden: Well, let's not throw up... present? What is the topic? Rex Cronon: ip? Lalinda Lovell: slgogp is the worst, whatever is it change it Morgaine Dinova: Zero: one thing that came up in AW Groupies meeting was to use a bundle of TCP streams instead of just one held open by 1.1. That could improve various thinks, and allow prioritization too. Gareth Ellison: at AWG we discussed event queues Gareth Ellison: yeah, i mentioned the case of various exploding cute animals Tao Takashi: we mostly discussed IBM ;-) Gareth Ellison: i.e important events Zero Linden: okay, do we need IBM on the agenda here? Saijanai Kuhn didn't want to hear about the bunnies Tao Takashi: not for me Jennifer Gallindo: IBM would be good Morgaine Dinova: No more bunnies pls Jennifer Gallindo: hehe Gareth Ellison: important events not getting bogged down in event queues and multiple such event queus to compensate Gypsy Paz: yeah, I'd like to hear more about IBM Gareth Ellison: no more bunnies Gareth Ellison: i promise Zero Linden: I've got so far: Secretary, Event Queue/Bundles of TCP Saijanai Kuhn: Zha covered IBM but not everyone was at the Groupies meeting Saijanai Kuhn: login needs three parts not two Tao Takashi: Zha should blog about it ;-) Zero Linden: Okay, well, I'll grant IBM a few minutes Gareth Ellison: possibility of edge touching sims, opensim mods with the IBM subgrid Dahlia Trimble: are there transcripts for awg? Zero Linden: Sai? Okay, I'll add that Zha Ewry: On my list, Tao Morgaine Dinova: Ah yeah, Sai's issue with login flexibility for interop Gareth Ellison: but i think that was dismissed somewhat Saijanai Kuhn: Will be Dahlia Tao Takashi: cool :) Gareth Ellison: ah yeah - login steps Tao Takashi: where is your blog anyway? Zha Ewry: Need to talk to PR and oddly, some lindens about that Zero Linden: SO - Going once: Secretary, TCP bundles, Event Queue, IBM, Login in 3 Acts Zero Linden: Going twice Gareth Ellison: that seems to sum it up Zero Linden: GOing three times...... Dahlia Trimble: teleporting to other grids :) Gareth Ellison: oh, and bunnies, kittens and evil dogs Gareth Ellison: sorry Tao Takashi: and marketing ;-) Gareth Ellison refrains Saijanai Kuhn covers ears Zero Linden: ..... SOLD! to the tall thin avatar on the wall.... Jennifer Gallindo: I agree, multigrid TP Morgaine Dinova: Heh Trex Yao: including not ll grinds? Gareth Ellison: ok, zero - tell us about the secretary...... Trex Yao: grinds* Trex Yao: grids* Trex Yao: argg Dahlia Trimble: before someone else invents it first Saijanai Kuhn grinds evilly Zero Linden: Okay - my issue is quick: I'd like this group to have not just a transcript posted, but a consices summary of what was discussed and top high levelpoints made Zha Ewry nods ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: I still say you need to ban prokofy before you try and fix sl. Zero Linden: I'm thinking about ten or so lines per session Lalinda Lovell: i can do that Mick Schonberg: hi everyone Lalinda Lovell: i work for IBM Lalinda Lovell: not Gareth Ellison: that is a VERY good idea Gareth Ellison: the transcripts tend to be long and full of padding Lalinda Lovell: like clown pants Gareth Ellison: throw it in with the agenda Rex Cronon: i don't think prokofy will write any code, so why u need to ban? Saijanai Kuhn: bad jokes about exploding non-avi furry creatures Zero Linden: What I'd like is for folks interested to take a stab at it this week and next and we'll see what works best Gareth Ellison: and show the outcome of each agenda point Lalinda Lovell: best man wins, good idea Zero Linden: Or woman, or furry, or evil robot, or.... Colton Linden: or puppet Mick Schonberg: Hey! Saijanai Kuhn: so, Lalinda volunteers for secretary? Gareth Ellison: that reminds me, i didn't get round to knocking out my l33t code for the SLGOGP auto-generated code.......... Lalinda Lovell: yes i do Zero Linden: So - if you want to try your hand at it - just do it and stick the summary somewher off the office hours pages Saijanai Kuhn: all opposed? Zero Linden: Thanks Saijanai Kuhn: They ayes have it Lalinda Lovell: starting with this meeting right? Morgaine Dinova: Zero: easy enough to do in wiki format. Someone can segment the discussion page into topics, and then each party that led the topic can pad it out. Zero Linden: No time like the present Lalinda Lovell: ok Zero Linden: remember, goal is short, clear Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat Zero Linden: Okay - onward Zero Linden: Bundles of TCP - Zero Linden: Did I hear BEEP? Gareth Ellison: specifically splitting off priority messages if needed Zero Linden: Or were we just talking about keeping more than one event queu open? Saijanai Kuhn: well, the wrry was about EventQueueGet handlign both agent update packets and massive textures Gareth Ellison: in case main event queue gets bogged down Gareth Ellison: ah yeah, links to large events Gareth Ellison: event queue has this: Gareth Ellison: {'event':'myevent','body':{blablabla}} Gareth Ellison: or Gareth Ellison: {'event':'myevent',link:' https://mysim/events/blabla '} Gareth Ellison: or some other format, mini format details can be decided on later Morgaine Dinova: Zero: well the subjects stemmed from noting that different types of downstream traffic really required different urgency and had different requirements. Zero Linden: as in { 'event':'mybigpayloadevent', link: ' https://mysim/come-and-get-it-when-you-are-ready/.... ' } Saijanai Kuhn: specifically if large numbers of textures get interwoven with fast update events Gareth Ellison: yeah, we need some to arrive out of band basically Morgaine Dinova: But it seemed a good approach in general --- everything down one pipe doesn't seem the right approach. Gareth Ellison: that's a good one zero :) Zha Ewry nods Gareth Ellison: so, 2 points really Gareth Ellison: out of band events that need higher priority Gareth Ellison: and big events Gareth Ellison: the latter using links Zero Linden: Right - so the HTTP Texture design does this - the message contins the CAP to the texture, the texture isn't pushed down the event queue Gareth Ellison: exactly Zha Ewry: Also, the absent teraveasu, was very concerned about.. http get speed, vs. udp tecxture load Zero Linden: perhaps we should set guidlines on maximum data that should be presented viat hte event queue Zero Linden: then the question is Gareth Ellison: though one could imagine big piles of object updates could go there too Saijanai Kuhn: alright, that was my main concern. And its flexable Gareth Ellison: you read my mind zero :) Zero Linden: do we need to do this generically (defined the link: option) or do we leave it for each protocol to descide Zero Linden: ? Trex Yao: are you talking about a explorer? Gareth Ellison: if event_size>N use_link Gareth Ellison: where N is a maximum size per event Zero Linden: Right Zero Linden: I think we are all ont he same wavelength Gareth Ellison: yay Saijanai Kuhn: could even be settable at runtime Morgaine Dinova: Zero: why set any maximum? I don't see how that fall out of anything Nite Zelmanov: Maximum sizes are going to be subject to change, I think the client should specify it's desired options for multiple event queues Zero Linden: We should architect so that there is never more than n-ms. latentcy in getting an expected queue Gareth Ellison: so you never get bogged down with 1 huge event Gareth Ellison: set a maximum event size Gareth Ellison: that's a point Dahlia Trimble: is there a maximum now? Gareth Ellison: ideally the queue should never exceed a certain delay between events Nite Zelmanov: Zero: The client should manage it's own latency optimization, it's task specific Gareth Ellison: Dahlia - no, but today we have LAG Zero Linden: *IF* we add 'link' as an option that any event can be shunted to (at the Event Queue level), then we can do some form of negotiated or dynamic decisions on size Gareth Ellison: would need complex negotiation between sim and client to handle automatically adjusting Nite Zelmanov nods Zero Linden: I do worry about the complexity there: just lok at what TCP has to do.... Gareth Ellison: zero - event classes i proposed Zha Ewry: Sliding windows, are painful Gareth Ellison: i.e low, medium, high priority Gareth Ellison: big and little Morgaine Dinova: Zero: here's a better approach to handling large objects: instead of reating limits, just make it easy to create new strands in the bundle. Then even large objects can be sent down without creating latency for smaller objects, because they'd be in their own strand. Saijanai Kuhn: big and little should be enough Zero Linden: The problem with different queues for different classes of events are that there are likely to be many classes: and we really don't want the viewer to have to have half a dozen or more open connections Dahlia Trimble: are large packets coming thru the same queue? I thought from libsecondlife that they were separate Gareth Ellison: morgaiine - define "bundle" Gareth Ellison: if it's on the same TCP session, it doesn't matter how many in each "bundle" Zero Linden: Well, Morgain, That just sounds like BEEP to me - which is an already defined standard for doing just that Gareth Ellison: a simple 3-class system may be plenty Saijanai Kuhn: if its via http Morgaine Dinova: The bundle is just the set of single TCP streams ("strands"). Zero Linden: problem is, it hasn't gotten that much traction Dahlia Trimble: by session, you mean connection to a socket? Nite Zelmanov: Morgaine has hit is. The viewer should be able to request more strands Zha Ewry: Complexity is costly Gareth Ellison: actually, nite - morgaine may have it there Zha Ewry: If you need more than 2? I'm wondering why Saijanai Kuhn: right now the strands are defined as http. which is supposed to be limited to two per server Gareth Ellison: just let the client ask for more connections Zero Linden: http://www.beepcore.org/ Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I'm all for reusing existing standards if they're good. :-) If Beep does it, great :-) Gareth Ellison: although the simpler measure is just check each message Gareth Ellison: if size>N send link Gareth Ellison: then have 2 links Gareth Ellison: (HTTP pipes) Gareth Ellison: 1 for normal traffic, 1 for out of band Gareth Ellison: and use the out of band pipe only for sudden urgent messages(must resist bunny) Saijanai Kuhn covers his ears Morgaine Dinova: TCP strands please, not HTTP. HTTP is the upstream request protocol, but the queue junk just streams down the TCP streams. Zero Linden: Well, two could be feasible....I worry that three connections is getting large -- remember that the viewer has event queue style connections to both the agent domain, the region domain, and probably every sim it can see into Zero Linden: so potentially 10 hosts Gareth Ellison: 2 permanent, 1 extra for occasional grabs with GET requests Saijanai Kuhn: right now, there are 5 EQG's that I see with tcpdump Gareth Ellison: you'll have occasional GETs for textures anyway ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: 5 EFGs? Saijanai Kuhn: EventQeueueGet caps Gareth Ellison: where is the viewer talking now? ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: EpicFailGuy Dahlia Trimble: one for each sim you are a child agent for saij? Gareth Ellison: current sim, user server and bordering sims? Gareth Ellison: and is the user server using caps or not? Saijanai Kuhn: user server = current sim Gareth Ellison: user server == remote UDP Morgaine Dinova: Need a GimmeTCPstrand cap Drell Tool v1.1: Entering Grasmere. Time dilation is currently 1%. Gareth Ellison: TemplateCheckSumRequest :) Gareth Ellison: morgaine - no need for a seperate request CAP Gareth Ellison: just 1 CAP for the queue Dusty Lindley: poop Dusty Lindley: whats all this then Gareth Ellison: actually..... Gareth Ellison: scrap that Gareth Ellison: you do need to request it so the server knows you have >1 links Gareth Ellison: ignore my rambles Zero Linden: I see BEEP toolkit for C (from IBM!), C++, Java and Python Gareth Ellison: for the lag-afflicted who wish not to open browsers, can you summarise BEEP? Dusty Lindley: oh Dusty Lindley: theres a linden here. Dusty Lindley: I should say something negative. Mastorian Kingsford: lol Gareth Ellison raises eyebrows at dusty Dusty Lindley: Such as Dusty Lindley: "wtf?" Saijanai Kuhn: Dusy, this is Zero's office hours. We're talking uber geek stuff Dusty Lindley: or Dusty Lindley: "stop that" Gareth Ellison: zero - BEEP summary? Baba Yamamoto: Zero, i'd like to see IBM release their beep toolkit as foss ;0 Dusty Lindley: or even "are you insane?" Dusty Lindley: what's zero's department? xD Baba Yamamoto: how likely is that? Zero Linden: BEEP is an RFC that defines a meta level protocol - it lets you build define a protocol and then run it over beep where beep can multiplex multiple protocols over the same connection - and unifies issues of authentication and network delivery Dahlia Trimble: or "fix it" *giggle* Gareth Ellison: sounds interesting Gareth Ellison: RFC number? Zero Linden: " it allows you to define your application protocol on top of it, reusing several mechanisms such as: asynchronous communications, transport layer security, peer authentication, channel multiplexing on the same connection, message framing, channel bandwidth management, and many more interesting network features." Dahlia Trimble: does beep use an event queue? Saijanai Kuhn: so its a workign protocol? Baba Yamamoto: RFC 3080, RFC 3081, RFC 3288 Zero Linden: RFC3080 and RFC 3081 Saijanai Kuhn: sounds ideal if its stress tested Gareth Ellison: sounds like a way to abstract over various transport methods Zero Linden: what he said Qie Niangao: why hasn't it gained traction, Zero? Dahlia Trimble: its a tunneling protocol? Jennifer Gallindo: interesting Zero Linden: That is a good question , Qie Jennifer Gallindo: beepcore.org? Morgaine Dinova: Let's have a play with it, and report back next Tuesday :-) Zero Linden: Dahlia - no it doesn't tunnel - you need to defined your protocol on top of BEEP - but it does handle most of the common protocoly things Gareth Ellison: i may stealzorize it Saijanai Kuhn: I would guess because it does things that already are available so people don't feel a need to use it Miquel DeSantis is Online Dusty Lindley: Zero, can I interject? Dusty Lindley: o: Saijanai Kuhn: and because they're used to doing things with the older methodds Dusty Lindley: with a different topic? Or should I wait my turn :P Baba Yamamoto: I would say it hasn't gained traction because it wasn't invented in 1992 Gareth Ellison has 10 billion homerolled protocols Zero Linden: Dusty- I set up an agenda at the top Gareth Ellison: i throw them out at random it feels like Zero Linden: IM me if you want to add to it Saijanai Kuhn: yours would be at the end of the list, Dusty. After login in 3 acts (mine) Zero Linden: So - let's look at BEEP our selves and report back on it next week Morgaine Dinova: KK Gareth Ellison: zero - would BEEP tie into the event queue stuff cleanly? Gareth Ellison: just a yes/no Zero Linden: next up - brief IBM status reprot, ---- take it away Zha! Zero Linden: Gareth - possibly Gareth Ellison: ok @_ Gareth Ellison: :) Saijanai Kuhn: lol Gareth Ellison: tyops Baba Yamamoto: I've been reading the RFCs and internet drafs for SIP.. now that's some good reading ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: seriously Baba Yamamoto: drafts Gareth Ellison: do we have a zha? Gareth Ellison throws an orange at zha Morgaine Dinova: She's meditating Jennifer Gallindo: lol Zha Ewry: Here Zha Ewry: In six things at the moment Zero Linden: Quick report on IBM status for this group, say in 5 min. or less? Zha Ewry: So The major IBM thing, as most people know, was the the IBM/.Linnden Press release about Zha Ewry: a tiny behind the firewall test set of regions Zha Ewry: Which.. is *NOT* directly part of interop at all Zha Ewry: but.. a nice way to explore how we can use SL spaces for secure meetings and a conference Gareth Ellison: but could be Baba Yamamoto: zha, can i browse your gridz? Dahlia Trimble: lol @ Baba Jennifer Gallindo: assets are universal? Zha Ewry: The assets are read/write through Zha Ewry: So.. that things created lcoally, stay inside the firewall Zha Ewry: but, we can see, and use gloabl assets. Jennifer Gallindo: nice Zha Ewry: (Tho, I think, if you rez, a non-copy asset, and then take it into inv, it will be trapped behind the fireewall) Rex Cronon: what if u need to bring something out? Zha Ewry: No out Zha Ewry: Sort of th point Jennifer Gallindo: right Baba Yamamoto: never out.. FIREWALL Tao Takashi: so you have your own asset server then? Gareth Ellison: zha - teh opensim mod Zha Ewry: Its a baby copy of the beta grid asset server Zha Ewry: Without the pre-copy step Zha Ewry: Sort of a tiny pocket of grid, with odd behaior Jennifer Gallindo: hehe Kooky Jetaime: I'm sure they will impliment a "Transfer out" mode, so things can be moved, but it has to be processed, not automatic Gareth Ellison: TestClient export Zha Ewry bnods Kooky Jetaime: That will definately be a great thing for builders.. Build on their home grid, do all the work, tweaking, then bring it to the grid when ready to sell Zha Ewry: Its possible Saijanai Kuhn: just serialize the assets and remove them manually Baba Yamamoto: hey since you guys have the linden servers.. you can hack interop into opensim ;) Zha Ewry: Not our focus Zha Ewry: the focus is on using the collbaorative space Morgaine Dinova: Eventual goal of that, Zha? Saijanai Kuhn: opensim will be a better bet for that Kooky Gareth Ellison: baba - the zha has a firewall in her mind to prevent that Zha Ewry: our interop focus is on, the WG work Zha Ewry: *AWG Saijanai Kuhn: A*Wg Gareth Ellison: i do think sim<>sim protocol in opensim would rock Gareth Ellison: if it looked closer to the LL grid Gareth Ellison: right now it's silly .NET remoting Baba Yamamoto: gareth, i'm gonna destroy the .net remoting Gareth Ellison: and provokes fits of puppy-crushing anger in me Baba Yamamoto: that just makes me cringe Zha Ewry: Well, Gareth, there is some discussion about REST, and we'll Gareth Ellison: yay! Saijanai Kuhn: eh, think whatever is used shouldn't need to be like SL save at the grid protocol level Tao Takashi: make it .baba remoting Zha Ewry: as a community, work out what we need to do Gareth Ellison: you have no idea how many puppies you have saved baba Baba Yamamoto: gareth it's already on my roadmap ;0 Zero Linden: Note that for the most part, the AG work needn't be concerned with sim-to-sim communications Baba Yamamoto: along with destroy RPC with grid serives Zero Linden: since that is just how a grid choosed to manage itself Baba Yamamoto: services Gareth Ellison: it needs to be in there somewhere Zero Linden: er, region domain Gareth Ellison: it'd suck to have islands Zha Ewry: Only at the point where you want to permit A/B edge touches Tao Takashi: Zero: so that means a region domain has to deal with that? Zero Linden: (di I say "grid" like that? Bad dog!) Gareth Ellison: what if i want 2 region domains side by side? Tao Takashi: Zero: so that does mean that region domains cannot be direct neighbours? Gareth Ellison: i want to walk out of grid A onto grid B Zero Linden: Gareth - it has been a long standing assumption that region domains wouldn't physically touch Zania Babenco is Online Zero Linden: mostly to leave that sim-to-sim protocol as a later development Morgaine Dinova: If you implement regions the same way as LL does, you're stuck with the same limitations too. Gareth Ellison: i'm the kind of girl-guy that shatters assumptions Tao Takashi: I always felt that was kinda open how this might be handled ;-) Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, I though that you COULD walk from trusted grid A to trusted grid B ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: will ageplay be allowed on IBM's servers? Baba Yamamoto: gareth it's ok.. everyone will want them to touch eventually and then you will get SLOGP/1.1 Gareth Ellison: it would be nice to be able to walk across grids Baba Yamamoto: and we will use it for 10 years without change ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: yeah Zero Linden: Sai - TP, not walk Tao Takashi: one thing is sure, I won't mention SLGOGP at some conference talk ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: or can we have a no furry grid? ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: and a furry grid? Tao Takashi: people would ask me if they can help me ;-) Gareth Ellison: i want to throw an orange from the grid on garethnelson.com onto garethsenemy.com and hit them in the head Dahlia Trimble: it would be nice just to be able to teleport to other grids :) Baba Yamamoto: zero, TP is the easiest way to do it Gareth Ellison: via secondlife.com Saijanai Kuhn: OK, either misheard or thinking of ancient (now defunct) office hours discussion from last year Gareth Ellison: which will link me and my enemies Zha Ewry: I hope we'll get to edge touch in time Jennifer Gallindo: slurl/gridofyourchouice/region/ Gareth Ellison laughes manically Baba Yamamoto: but it's not going to satisfy every case Morgaine Dinova: A TP is indistinguishable from a walk for sufficiently short durations of TP :-) Zero Linden: Indeed we will - btu there has to be much closer cooperation between touching sims Yani Pinion: We could instead of "directly walking" use viewports so that one could have a "door" to another grid. That could work almost entirely client side Zero Linden: for example agreement about how physics is handled Jennifer Gallindo: a stargate Rex Cronon: stargates:) ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: but will it run linux? Lalinda Lovell: no stargates Zero Linden: SO ...... Jennifer Gallindo: hehe Zha Ewry: This has been a long term discussion for a long time Gareth Ellison: if you walk, you can see the remote region Dahlia Trimble: wormholes? Zha Ewry: Edge touch requires a lot of commonality Baba Yamamoto: zero, no agreement.. walk from land into space Zero Linden: I think we can move on to the Login in 3 Acts Baba Yamamoto: it's like magic Dahlia Trimble: converse with someone in an adjacent region? Morgaine Dinova: Gareth, you can see the remote region in a TP too, using portals Gareth Ellison: i've often pondered doing dodgy packet injections to get edge touch ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: we'd need two trilobytes of LAM for that Dusty Lindley: i think the real question here is.. will it run on OS/2? Zero Linden: Dahlia - IM must work everywhere Saijanai Kuhn: Tess asked me to convert rez_avatar to SLGOGP format: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Rez_Avatar_Capability Gareth Ellison: get other user's IP teca Pick: HI Gareth Ellison: inject EnableSimulator Zero Linden: local chat - again a sim-to-sim issue Saijanai Kuhn: I noticed that there's a step missing Gareth Ellison: have them see the remote region Beverly Salming is Online Gareth Ellison: use LSL to detect border cross Gareth Ellison: more packet injection Gareth Ellison: all to the client Gareth Ellison: don't inject packets into the LL grid....... Zero Linden: Which step? Rex Cronon: it would be kind of hard to send IM to 10 or more users on different grids ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: mmmm Gareth Ellison: i'll shutup on the dodgy packet injection now Saijanai Kuhn: rez avatar allows you to have inventory and group IM without rezzing. BUT what if a given grid you're heading to has grid-specific IM, grid-specific money, grid specific whatever. Gareth Ellison: rex - you talking about groups? Gareth Ellison: groups are easy Gareth Ellison: they live in one agent domain, and send IMs cross-domains to other agent domains ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: how do I format a floptical? Saijanai Kuhn: grid-specific groups Rex Cronon: i meant u can select a group of friends and and use IM Morgaine Dinova: What Sai is saying is that too many SL-specific issues have been bundled together. Gareth Ellison: you have "Bobs of Second Life"@secondlife.com Rex Cronon: and if each one is on a different grid... Zero Linden: Well, I think we have to take these one at a time Baba Yamamoto: why would you have a grid specific group? Saijanai Kuhn: so instead pf gemeroc ;pgom => Sl specific rez_avatar Gareth Ellison: or "Harries of OSGrid"@osgrid.org Gareth Ellison: you could do that Zero Linden: In some cases, I imagine that the set of resource classes is a bundle and we can expect to interact with that bundle as offered by more than one domains Gareth Ellison: simple Zero Linden: Thinks like classifieds, or groups probably fall inot that camp Baba Yamamoto: I hate the whole concept of a global authentication and identity scheme though.. Saijanai Kuhn: generic login => SL specific rez_avatar you have generic login =? grid specific "login" =>rez avatar Lalinda Lovell: a grid specific group might be needed depending on the rules for each grid, such as tos, broadly offensive material Baba Yamamoto: hate it Zero Linden: Other, like IM, I dthink don't make sens to have "region domain IM" -- what would it mean? Baba Yamamoto: i like the mess we're in now Gareth Ellison: baba - you've never used OpenID? Gareth Ellison: region domain IM is insane Gareth Ellison: land doesn't talk people! Saijanai Kuhn: region domain IM? STuff that applies only to the worlds of warcraft Gareth Ellison: forget what the bible says Morgaine Dinova: Zero: if they're individually addressable (as all REST resources should be), then you can still operate on them as a set/bundle, without them being intrinsically coupled. They'd be coupled merely by being in the same container. ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: I know ruby on rails Gareth Ellison: people (agents) talk Gareth Ellison: thus they IM ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: can I code for you guys? Gareth Ellison: thus IM == agent domain Dusty Lindley: lol Jennifer Gallindo: I agree gareth Jennifer Gallindo: it should reside above Saijanai Kuhn: the one time only "anteroom for first time access to a grid" would be part of establishing a grid prsence as opposed to a sim presence Gareth Ellison: shiftyguy: ironically enough that isn't as funny as you think it is - there's already been at least 2 abandoned ruby on rails OGS implementations Zero Linden: Sai - how would Baba IM'ing Gareth differ as an agent-domain to agent domain communication from a region domain specific one? Yani Pinion: Isn't there ready systems for IM and groups, like skype handles 10M people at the same time easily Gareth Ellison: IM is agent domain, screw regions Saijanai Kuhn: well, WoW doesn't want ther money, their IM, there whatevers, to head into the outside world Gareth Ellison: i may login a simple IM-only client who doesn't care about regions at all Lalinda Lovell: has someone asked WoW? Gareth Ellison: so WoW keeps their own agent domain Tao Takashi: if IM is on the region you actually need to be logged in to the region to do IM Gareth Ellison: forget about regions Gareth Ellison: why are we even talking about this? Tao Takashi: no idea ;-) Gareth Ellison: IMs are agent domain, fools Dusty Lindley: .. are we talking about WoW >_> Saijanai Kuhn: I brought it up Gareth Ellison: then you sir are a fool Saijanai Kuhn: Login in 3 acts instead of two Yani Pinion: Gareth; youre right! Zero Linden: Let's restirct the name calling to Lindens only Gareth Ellison: login....... Zero Linden: :-) Jennifer Gallindo: lol Baba Yamamoto: Dusty, we're gonna play D&D after this meeting.. you should come ;0 Gareth Ellison: heh, ok - zero: you're a fool (pre-emptive fool insult, in case you do something foolish) Gareth Ellison: ok, login Zha Ewry shakes her head Morgaine Dinova: Well Sai's right in one sense at least: Sim vicinity chat is region-controlled IM with distance fall-off. Gareth Ellison: chat != IM Saijanai Kuhn: the point I'm trying to make is that right now you have rez_avatar to take care of handlign things like Group IM and inventory/money without having a Rhed avatar Gareth Ellison: but onto login Saijanai Kuhn: Ruthed avatar Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: it's communication with very similar exploders to IM. Just saying it's no IM doesn't make it so. Zero Linden: So - I think we already have three way login, really Zero Linden: think of it this way, Saijanai Saijanai Kuhn: I'm just pointing out that there may be scenarios where you might have grid-specific stuff to interface with before rez_avatar Gareth Ellison: i think the main thing that cropped up with the AWG meeting was this: Gareth Ellison: you login to agent domain Gareth Ellison: agent domain points you at region Zero Linden: You log inot the agent domain with your viewer - that is you, the human, authenticating to the agent domain for control of a specific agent Gareth Ellison: what if region domain has an issue? Gareth Ellison: you want this: Gareth Ellison: agent domain controller > agent host Zero Linden: now, in response, if you get in, you are given a seed cap from which you can get a bundle of other caps - like IM, say.... Zero Linden: Now Gareth Ellison: agent on agent host > region domain controller > region host Gareth Ellison: region domain controller can reroute your request to another region host or do other trickery Gareth Ellison: agent domain has no need to know the IP of single region host Gareth Ellison: or even hostname Gareth Ellison: since that is just nuts Zero Linden: When the viewer invokes rez_avatar - it is asking the agent domain to "login" to a particular region in a particular region domain Gareth Ellison: why not just get auth'ed with agent domain, and then have the client talk to region domain? Zero Linden: that login is the agent doimain authenticating (to a degree) to the region domain, and proving what agent it respresents Gareth Ellison: more decoupled that way Zero Linden: in response, if it gets in, then the region domain gives a seed cap (which leads to a bundle of caps) for services on that domain Gareth Ellison: client says to region domain "oy! here's my public CAP on my agent domain" Gareth Ellison: public CAP being the one that says "yes, it's me" Zero Linden: I can easily imagin that it gives a (IM, but restricted to people on this region domain) bundel Gareth Ellison: "send me some events here" Zha Ewry: Need to run to the next meeting Saijanai Kuhn: OK, so rez_avatar handles whatever needs to be handled. Jennifer Gallindo: bye Zha Jennifer Gallindo: thx Rex Cronon: bye zha Zuleika Deere: bye Zha Tara5 Oh: bye zha! Gareth Ellison: so long oh zha'ey one Tao Takashi: cya Zha Saijanai Kuhn: Fine by me, as long as the client isn't forced to rez before using caps that aren't involved with rez (such as regions-ecific IM, inventory/money, etc) Zero Linden: AH - Zero Linden: Well, so Morgaine Dinova: Maybe just renaming rez_avatar to something less specific would do the job. "Make_presence", since there may be no av rez at all? Gareth Ellison: we need a login that doesn't assume you're talking to regions Zero Linden: early on with Tess, we talked about should the agent domain talk to the region domain (as an entity) and say< please put this agent on this region Jennifer Gallindo: as with an IM on ly client Zero Linden: or should it just talk to a single public URL for the region Zero Linden: we desicded tha later as it was more flexible Saijanai Kuhn: IM-only client is what rez_avatar is meant for Zero Linden: just because the Well-known region URL is: http://some-sim.some-region-domain.org/ Saijanai Kuhn: but a non-LL region might have stuff that doesn't fit the (current) rez_avatar model Zero Linden: doesn't mean that it isn't actually being handled y the region domain directly Gareth Ellison: zero - surely talking to single regions is a bit more messy? Gareth Ellison: a region domain controller which can reroute you if region host is down seems sensible Morgaine Dinova: Zero: indeed. Must not presuppose that the client will connect to your region domain, it might choose another. So your agent domain should not do so :-) perizada Strangelove is Online Zero Linden: in other words, a region domain chould choose to publish region well known URLs, which actually all pointed at the region domain controller iteself Zero Linden: The issue is that you are suggesting that there Gareth Ellison: \_/ Zero Linden: are things for which I may want to get region domain level services taht aren't tied to a region Zero Linden: and and indeed, that is new Morgaine Dinova: Zero: an example is grid stats services. Zero Linden: perhaps - though, that could be modled by a region domain as being rez'd in some "non-corporial-sim" Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. I dont' see that it has to go outside "rez_avatar" as a service of the Agent Host, but it needs to be handled in some way Tao Takashi: you might eventually want some region domain which starts a region on demand Zero Linden: Morgain - well -thouse would indeed go through a well konwn URL to the region domain - I see no way around that Zero Linden: So, think of WoW - Zero Linden: let's say that WoW wants to allow region domain only IM and other tools - Tao Takashi: sounds as if I should look into WoW how much it is mentioned here ;-) Zero Linden: and wants to allow those to be usable if you are in a physical region or not Zero Linden: then it could advertise a "out-of-world" region Gareth Ellison: i crashed :( Saijanai Kuhn: I believe there is offline IM in WOW now, not sure Yani Pinion: need to go, bye Zero Linden: (which would allow 1000s of avatars!) and you could 'rez' there Rex Cronon: bye yani Zero Linden: I need to run to a 2pm meeting again (I'm always pittifully late!) Gareth Ellison: anyone care to IM logs from last thing i said? Morgaine Dinova: Zero: you yourselves might operate more than one region domain (in fact you do, the teen grid is conceptually managed through a separate region domain), so you can't presuppose that the client who wants grid stats will connect to one region domain or another :-) Tara5 Oh: bye zero! Dahlia Trimble: Thanks Zero :) Gareth Ellison: heh Rex Cronon: bye zero Morgaine Dinova: Cya Zero Qie Niangao: thanks, Zero Saijanai Kuhn: later Zero Just wanted to raize the point since its a long-term issue Gareth Ellison: did anyone get my thoughts on multiple grids per domain? Lalinda Lovell: to anyone who came late this was logged, and you may be quoted for the wiki :) Jennifer Gallindo: thzx zero Gareth Ellison: region@domain.com:grid Zero Linden: Morgain - I don't think it is going to be possible to maintian "all grid wide" stats in the future Gareth Ellison: Grasmere/172/113/27@secondlife.com:agni Gareth Ellison: that's where we are Zero Linden: later all Zero Linden: good discussion Morgaine Dinova: Zero: there ya go then :-) A use case for separation! Rex Cronon: there is going to be a transcript gareth Gareth Ellison: heh, i arrived back just in time for zero to leave Tao Takashi: cya Zero