User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Apr 08
Zero Linden: Full house = sign of success!
Zha Ewry: Dead laptop on its way to be fixed. I want my FPS back
Gareth Ellison: down to business ladies and gentlemen?
Lalinda Lovell: and puppies
Jennifer Gallindo: hehe
Saijanai Kuhn: full house = spammariffic avatar
Gareth Ellison throws an orange at zero
Lalinda Lovell: sai bad spammer
Mastorian Kingsford: couch
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: "full house" == "hit scalability limit" :-))
Zero Linden: Well all - welcome to my "scalability limit" office hours
Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
Gypsy Paz: lol
Tao Takashi: Hi
Gareth Ellison: if the sim was coded in python with live REPL zero could dynamically turn off server-side features to
decrease lag ;)
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: seriously
Rex Cronon: zero might need to put his office at corner of 4 sims:)
Mastorian Kingsford: lmao
Tao Takashi: or simply use IRC ;-)
Zero Linden: What? and loose our intimate little chats?
Zero Linden: Never!
Gareth Ellison: IRC is actually sane
Kiefer Schuttelanz: IRCap
Gareth Ellison: or at least a bridge
Kiefer Schuttelanz: xD
Lalinda Lovell: use irc and we all save money
Gareth Ellison: i'd go for a bridge
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: seriously
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: I don't need to buy shirts on IRC
Gareth Ellison: scrap SL and this whole metaverse thing, let's just all go to IRC
Zha Ewry: Dog food, eating of same
Tao Takashi: lets make IRC interoperable instead!
Lalinda Lovell: irc.secondlife.net
Zero Linden: Wow - You're right - IRC is the way!
Rookiie Roux: hehe
Gareth Ellison puts on his ninja robe and cloak
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: we need irc with avatars
Gareth Ellison: hey, how about 3D avatars?
Trex Yao: .. Lalinda Lovell: sorry (TM)
Gareth Ellison: in a 3D world?
Gareth Ellison: with scripts
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: oh yeah!
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: that too!
Tao Takashi: we might invent some way to create objects in IRC
Rex Cronon: such a novel idea:)
Gareth Ellison: hey, split it up into parcels of land
Zero Linden: And the spec is already written!
Gareth Ellison: across servers
Gareth Ellison: wow!
Zero Linden: Okay----
Saijanai Kuhn: And lag. Dont' forget the lag
Gareth Ellison: we can call it second reality
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: except there would be way more cool than sl
Gareth Ellison: ok, onto business
Gareth Ellison: zero - agenda
Zero Linden: Yes - agenda
Lalinda Lovell: and we can all see eachs ip and dos each other
Lalinda Lovell: jk
Zero Linden: so far no one has made use of my spiffy agenda section on the Wiki
Morgaine Dinova: Ah yeah, the lag must be part of the spec, or it wouldn't be authentic
Saijanai Kuhn: had two issues pop up in dicussion. Mine and everyone else's
Gareth Ellison: how about we all throw up what was said in AWGroupies meeting?
Lalinda Lovell: not all of you please
Zero Linden: So - I have one item - a secretary
Lalinda Lovell: it lasted 9 hours didnt it
Saijanai Kuhn: ?
Lalinda Lovell: you want a secretary zero?
Lalinda Lovell: i have a pen
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: wow
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: so few people on voice
Saijanai Kuhn: for handling SLGOGP?
Gareth Ellison: no transcripts on voice
Tao Takashi still wants a better name and URL :)
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: right
Zero Linden: Well, let's not throw up... present? What is the topic?
Rex Cronon: ip?
Lalinda Lovell: slgogp is the worst, whatever is it change it
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: one thing that came up in AW Groupies meeting was to use a bundle of TCP streams instead of just one
held open by 1.1. That could improve various thinks, and allow prioritization too.
Gareth Ellison: at AWG we discussed event queues
Gareth Ellison: yeah, i mentioned the case of various exploding cute animals
Tao Takashi: we mostly discussed IBM ;-)
Gareth Ellison: i.e important events
Zero Linden: okay, do we need IBM on the agenda here?
Saijanai Kuhn didn't want to hear about the bunnies
Tao Takashi: not for me
Jennifer Gallindo: IBM would be good Morgaine Dinova: No more bunnies pls
Jennifer Gallindo: hehe
Gareth Ellison: important events not getting bogged down in event queues and multiple such event queus to compensate
Gypsy Paz: yeah, I'd like to hear more about IBM
Gareth Ellison: no more bunnies
Gareth Ellison: i promise
Zero Linden: I've got so far: Secretary, Event Queue/Bundles of TCP
Saijanai Kuhn: Zha covered IBM but not everyone was at the Groupies meeting
Saijanai Kuhn: login needs three parts not two
Tao Takashi: Zha should blog about it ;-)
Zero Linden: Okay, well, I'll grant IBM a few minutes
Gareth Ellison: possibility of edge touching sims, opensim mods with the IBM subgrid
Dahlia Trimble: are there transcripts for awg?
Zero Linden: Sai? Okay, I'll add that
Zha Ewry: On my list, Tao
Morgaine Dinova: Ah yeah, Sai's issue with login flexibility for interop
Gareth Ellison: but i think that was dismissed somewhat
Saijanai Kuhn: Will be Dahlia
Tao Takashi: cool :)
Gareth Ellison: ah yeah - login steps
Tao Takashi: where is your blog anyway?
Zha Ewry: Need to talk to PR and oddly, some lindens about that
Zero Linden: SO - Going once: Secretary, TCP bundles, Event Queue, IBM, Login in 3 Acts
Zero Linden: Going twice
Gareth Ellison: that seems to sum it up
Zero Linden: GOing three times......
Dahlia Trimble: teleporting to other grids :)
Gareth Ellison: oh, and bunnies, kittens and evil dogs
Gareth Ellison: sorry
Tao Takashi: and marketing ;-)
Gareth Ellison refrains
Saijanai Kuhn covers ears
Zero Linden: ..... SOLD! to the tall thin avatar on the wall....
Jennifer Gallindo: I agree, multigrid TP
Morgaine Dinova: Heh
Trex Yao: including not ll grinds?
Gareth Ellison: ok, zero - tell us about the secretary......
Trex Yao: grinds*
Trex Yao: grids*
Trex Yao: argg
Dahlia Trimble: before someone else invents it first
Saijanai Kuhn grinds evilly
Zero Linden: Okay - my issue is quick: I'd like this group to have not just a transcript posted, but a consices summary of
what was discussed and top high levelpoints made
Zha Ewry nods
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: I still say you need to ban prokofy before you try and fix sl.
Zero Linden: I'm thinking about ten or so lines per session
Lalinda Lovell: i can do that
Mick Schonberg: hi everyone
Lalinda Lovell: i work for IBM
Lalinda Lovell: not
Gareth Ellison: that is a VERY good idea
Gareth Ellison: the transcripts tend to be long and full of padding
Lalinda Lovell: like clown pants
Gareth Ellison: throw it in with the agenda
Rex Cronon: i don't think prokofy will write any code, so why u need to ban?
Saijanai Kuhn: bad jokes about exploding non-avi furry creatures
Zero Linden: What I'd like is for folks interested to take a stab at it this week and next and we'll see what works best
Gareth Ellison: and show the outcome of each agenda point
Lalinda Lovell: best man wins, good idea
Zero Linden: Or woman, or furry, or evil robot, or....
Colton Linden: or puppet
Mick Schonberg: Hey!
Saijanai Kuhn: so, Lalinda volunteers for secretary?
Gareth Ellison: that reminds me, i didn't get round to knocking out my l33t code for the SLGOGP auto-generated
code..........
Lalinda Lovell: yes i do
Zero Linden: So - if you want to try your hand at it - just do it and stick the summary somewher off the office hours pages
Saijanai Kuhn: all opposed?
Zero Linden: Thanks
Saijanai Kuhn: They ayes have it
Lalinda Lovell: starting with this meeting right?
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: easy enough to do in wiki format. Someone can segment the discussion page into topics, and then each
party that led the topic can pad it out.
Zero Linden: No time like the present
Lalinda Lovell: ok
Zero Linden: remember, goal is short, clear
Zero Linden: Okay - onward
Zero Linden: Bundles of TCP -
Zero Linden: Did I hear BEEP?
Gareth Ellison: specifically splitting off priority messages if needed
Zero Linden: Or were we just talking about keeping more than one event queu open?
Saijanai Kuhn: well, the wrry was about EventQueueGet handlign both agent update packets and massive textures
Gareth Ellison: in case main event queue gets bogged down
Gareth Ellison: ah yeah, links to large events
Gareth Ellison: event queue has this:
Gareth Ellison: {'event':'myevent','body':{blablabla}}
Gareth Ellison: or
Gareth Ellison: {'event':'myevent',link:' https://mysim/events/blabla '}
Gareth Ellison: or some other format, mini format details can be decided on later
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: well the subjects stemmed from noting that different types of downstream traffic really required
different urgency and had different requirements.
Zero Linden: as in { 'event':'mybigpayloadevent', link: ' https://mysim/come-and-get-it-when-you-are-ready/.... ' }
Saijanai Kuhn: specifically if large numbers of textures get interwoven with fast update events
Gareth Ellison: yeah, we need some to arrive out of band basically
Morgaine Dinova: But it seemed a good approach in general --- everything down one pipe doesn't seem the right approach.
Gareth Ellison: that's a good one zero :)
Zha Ewry nods
Gareth Ellison: so, 2 points really
Gareth Ellison: out of band events that need higher priority
Gareth Ellison: and big events
Gareth Ellison: the latter using links
Zero Linden: Right - so the HTTP Texture design does this - the message contins the CAP to the texture, the texture isn't
pushed down the event queue
Gareth Ellison: exactly
Zha Ewry: Also, the absent teraveasu, was very concerned about.. http get speed, vs. udp tecxture load
Zero Linden: perhaps we should set guidlines on maximum data that should be presented viat hte event queue
Zero Linden: then the question is
Gareth Ellison: though one could imagine big piles of object updates could go there too
Saijanai Kuhn: alright, that was my main concern. And its flexable
Gareth Ellison: you read my mind zero :)
Zero Linden: do we need to do this generically (defined the link: option) or do we leave it for each protocol to descide
Zero Linden: ?
Trex Yao: are you talking about a explorer?
Gareth Ellison: if event_size>N use_link
Gareth Ellison: where N is a maximum size per event
Zero Linden: Right
Zero Linden: I think we are all ont he same wavelength
Gareth Ellison: yay
Saijanai Kuhn: could even be settable at runtime
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: why set any maximum? I don't see how that fall out of anything
Nite Zelmanov: Maximum sizes are going to be subject to change, I think the client should specify it's desired options for
multiple event queues
Zero Linden: We should architect so that there is never more than n-ms. latentcy in getting an expected queue
Gareth Ellison: so you never get bogged down with 1 huge event
Gareth Ellison: set a maximum event size
Gareth Ellison: that's a point
Dahlia Trimble: is there a maximum now?
Gareth Ellison: ideally the queue should never exceed a certain delay between events
Nite Zelmanov: Zero: The client should manage it's own latency optimization, it's task specific
Gareth Ellison: Dahlia - no, but today we have LAG
Zero Linden: *IF* we add 'link' as an option that any event can be shunted to (at the Event Queue level), then we can
do some form of negotiated or dynamic decisions on size
Gareth Ellison: would need complex negotiation between sim and client to handle automatically adjusting
Nite Zelmanov nods
Zero Linden: I do worry about the complexity there: just lok at what TCP has to do....
Gareth Ellison: zero - event classes i proposed
Zha Ewry: Sliding windows, are painful
Gareth Ellison: i.e low, medium, high priority
Gareth Ellison: big and little
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: here's a better approach to handling large objects: instead of reating limits, just make it
easy to create new strands in the bundle. Then even large objects can be sent down without creating latency for
smaller objects, because they'd be in their own strand.
Saijanai Kuhn: big and little should be enough
Zero Linden: The problem with different queues for different classes of events are that there are likely to be many
classes: and we really don't want the viewer to have to have half a dozen or more open connections
Dahlia Trimble: are large packets coming thru the same queue? I thought from libsecondlife that they were separate
Gareth Ellison: morgaiine - define "bundle"
Gareth Ellison: if it's on the same TCP session, it doesn't matter how many in each "bundle"
Zero Linden: Well, Morgain, That just sounds like BEEP to me - which is an already defined standard for doing just
that
Gareth Ellison: a simple 3-class system may be plenty
Saijanai Kuhn: if its via http
Morgaine Dinova: The bundle is just the set of single TCP streams ("strands").
Zero Linden: problem is, it hasn't gotten that much traction
Dahlia Trimble: by session, you mean connection to a socket?
Nite Zelmanov: Morgaine has hit is. The viewer should be able to request more strands
Zha Ewry: Complexity is costly
Gareth Ellison: actually, nite - morgaine may have it there
Zha Ewry: If you need more than 2? I'm wondering why
Saijanai Kuhn: right now the strands are defined as http. which is supposed to be limited to two per server
Gareth Ellison: just let the client ask for more connections
Zero Linden: http://www.beepcore.org/
Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I'm all for reusing existing standards if they're good. :-) If Beep does it, great :-)
Gareth Ellison: although the simpler measure is just check each message
Gareth Ellison: if size>N send link
Gareth Ellison: then have 2 links
Gareth Ellison: (HTTP pipes)
Gareth Ellison: 1 for normal traffic, 1 for out of band
Gareth Ellison: and use the out of band pipe only for sudden urgent messages(must resist bunny)
Saijanai Kuhn covers his ears
Morgaine Dinova: TCP strands please, not HTTP. HTTP is the upstream request protocol, but the queue junk just streams
down the TCP streams.
Zero Linden: Well, two could be feasible....I worry that three connections is getting large -- remember that the
viewer has event queue style connections to both the agent domain, the region domain, and probably every sim it can
see into
Zero Linden: so potentially 10 hosts
Gareth Ellison: 2 permanent, 1 extra for occasional grabs with GET requests
Saijanai Kuhn: right now, there are 5 EQG's that I see with tcpdump
Gareth Ellison: you'll have occasional GETs for textures anyway
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: 5 EFGs?
Saijanai Kuhn: EventQeueueGet caps
Gareth Ellison: where is the viewer talking now?
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: EpicFailGuy
Dahlia Trimble: one for each sim you are a child agent for saij?
Gareth Ellison: current sim, user server and bordering sims?
Gareth Ellison: and is the user server using caps or not?
Saijanai Kuhn: user server = current sim
Gareth Ellison: user server == remote UDP
Morgaine Dinova: Need a GimmeTCPstrand cap
Gareth Ellison: TemplateCheckSumRequest :)
Gareth Ellison: morgaine - no need for a seperate request CAP
Gareth Ellison: just 1 CAP for the queue
Dusty Lindley: poop
Dusty Lindley: whats all this then
Gareth Ellison: actually.....
Gareth Ellison: scrap that
Gareth Ellison: you do need to request it so the server knows you have >1 links
Gareth Ellison: ignore my rambles
Zero Linden: I see BEEP toolkit for C (from IBM!), C++, Java and Python
Gareth Ellison: for the lag-afflicted who wish not to open browsers, can you summarise BEEP?
Dusty Lindley: oh
Dusty Lindley: theres a linden here.
Dusty Lindley: I should say something negative.
Mastorian Kingsford: lol
Gareth Ellison raises eyebrows at dusty
Dusty Lindley: Such as
Dusty Lindley: "wtf?"
Saijanai Kuhn: Dusy, this is Zero's office hours. We're talking uber geek stuff
Dusty Lindley: or
Dusty Lindley: "stop that"
Gareth Ellison: zero - BEEP summary?
Baba Yamamoto: Zero, i'd like to see IBM release their beep toolkit as foss ;0
Dusty Lindley: or even "are you insane?"
Dusty Lindley: what's zero's department? xD
Baba Yamamoto: how likely is that?
Zero Linden: BEEP is an RFC that defines a meta level protocol - it lets you build define a protocol and then run it
over beep where beep can multiplex multiple protocols over the same connection - and unifies issues of authentication
and network delivery
Dahlia Trimble: or "fix it" *giggle*
Gareth Ellison: sounds interesting
Gareth Ellison: RFC number?
Zero Linden: " it allows you to define your application protocol on top of it, reusing several mechanisms such as:
asynchronous communications, transport layer security, peer authentication, channel multiplexing on the same
connection, message framing, channel bandwidth management, and many more interesting network features."
Dahlia Trimble: does beep use an event queue?
Saijanai Kuhn: so its a workign protocol?
Baba Yamamoto: RFC 3080, RFC 3081, RFC 3288
Zero Linden: RFC3080 and RFC 3081
Saijanai Kuhn: sounds ideal if its stress tested
Gareth Ellison: sounds like a way to abstract over various transport methods
Zero Linden: what he said
Qie Niangao: why hasn't it gained traction, Zero?
Dahlia Trimble: its a tunneling protocol?
Jennifer Gallindo: interesting
Zero Linden: That is a good question , Qie
Jennifer Gallindo: beepcore.org?
Morgaine Dinova: Let's have a play with it, and report back next Tuesday :-)
Zero Linden: Dahlia - no it doesn't tunnel - you need to defined your protocol on top of BEEP - but it does handle
most of the common protocoly things
Gareth Ellison: i may stealzorize it
Saijanai Kuhn: I would guess because it does things that already are available so people don't feel a need to use it
Dusty Lindley: Zero, can I interject?
Dusty Lindley: o:
Saijanai Kuhn: and because they're used to doing things with the older methodds
Dusty Lindley: with a different topic? Or should I wait my turn :P
Baba Yamamoto: I would say it hasn't gained traction because it wasn't invented in 1992
Gareth Ellison has 10 billion homerolled protocols
Zero Linden: Dusty- I set up an agenda at the top
Gareth Ellison: i throw them out at random it feels like
Zero Linden: IM me if you want to add to it
Saijanai Kuhn: yours would be at the end of the list, Dusty. After login in 3 acts (mine)
Zero Linden: So - let's look at BEEP our selves and report back on it next week
Morgaine Dinova: KK
Gareth Ellison: zero - would BEEP tie into the event queue stuff cleanly?
Gareth Ellison: just a yes/no
Zero Linden: next up - brief IBM status reprot, ---- take it away Zha!
Zero Linden: Gareth - possibly
Gareth Ellison: ok @_
Gareth Ellison: :)
Saijanai Kuhn: lol
Gareth Ellison: tyops
Baba Yamamoto: I've been reading the RFCs and internet drafs for SIP.. now that's some good reading
ShiftyGuy Trenchcoat: seriously
Baba Yamamoto: drafts
Gareth Ellison: do we have a zha?
Gareth Ellison throws an orange at zha
Morgaine Dinova: She's meditating
Jennifer Gallindo: lol
Zha Ewry: Here
Zha Ewry: In six things at the moment
Zero Linden: Quick report on IBM status for this group, say in 5 min. or less?
Zha Ewry: So The major IBM thing, as most people know, was the the IBM/.Linnden Press release about
Zha Ewry: a tiny behind the firewall test set of regions
Zha Ewry: Which.. is *NOT* directly part of interop at all
Zha Ewry: but.. a nice way to explore how we can use SL spaces for secure meetings and a conference
Gareth Ellison: but could be
Baba Yamamoto: zha, can i browse your gridz?
Dahlia Trimble: lol @ Baba
Jennifer Gallindo: assets are universal?
Zha Ewry: The assets are read/write through
Zha Ewry: So.. that things created lcoally, stay inside the firewall
Zha Ewry: but, we can see, and use gloabl assets.
Jennifer Gallindo: nice
Zha Ewry: (Tho, I think, if you rez, a non-copy asset, and then take it into inv, it will be trapped behind the
fireewall)
Rex Cronon: what if u need to bring something out?
Zha Ewry: No out
Zha Ewry: Sort of th point
Jennifer Gallindo: right
Baba Yamamoto: never out.. FIREWALL
Tao Takashi: so you have your own asset server then?
Gareth Ellison: zha - teh opensim mod
Zha Ewry: Its a baby copy of the beta grid asset server
Zha Ewry: Without the pre-copy step
Zha Ewry: Sort of a tiny pocket of grid, with odd behaior
Jennifer Gallindo: hehe
Kooky Jetaime: I'm sure they will impliment a "Transfer out" mode, so things can be moved, but it has to be
processed, not automatic
Gareth Ellison: TestClient export
Zha Ewry bnods
Kooky Jetaime: That will definately be a great thing for builders.. Build on their home grid, do all the work,
tweaking, then bring it to the grid when ready to sell
Zha Ewry: Its possible
Saijanai Kuhn: just serialize the assets and remove them manually
Baba Yamamoto: hey since you guys have the linden servers.. you can hack interop into opensim ;)
Zha Ewry: Not our focus
Zha Ewry: the focus is on using the collbaorative space
Morgaine Dinova: Eventual goal of that, Zha?
Saijanai Kuhn: opensim will be a better bet for that Kooky
Gareth Ellison: baba - the zha has a firewall in her mind to prevent that
Zha Ewry: our interop focus is on, the WG work
Zha Ewry: *AWG
Saijanai Kuhn: A*Wg
Gareth Ellison: i do think sim<>sim protocol in opensim would rock
Gareth Ellison: if it looked closer to the LL grid
Gareth Ellison: right now it's silly .NET remoting
Baba Yamamoto: gareth, i'm gonna destroy the .net remoting
Gareth Ellison: and provokes fits of puppy-crushing anger in me
Baba Yamamoto: that just makes me cringe
Zha Ewry: Well, Gareth, there is some discussion about REST, and we'll
Gareth Ellison: yay!
Saijanai Kuhn: eh, think whatever is used shouldn't need to be like SL save at the grid protocol level
Tao Takashi: make it .baba remoting
Zha Ewry: as a community, work out what we need to do
Gareth Ellison: you have no idea how many puppies you have saved baba
Baba Yamamoto: gareth it's already on my roadmap ;0
Zero Linden: Note that for the most part, the AG work needn't be concerned with sim-to-sim communications
Baba Yamamoto: along with destroy RPC with grid serives
Zero Linden: since that is just how a grid choosed to manage itself
Baba Yamamoto: services
Gareth Ellison: it needs to be in there somewhere
Zero Linden: er, region domain
Gareth Ellison: it'd suck to have islands
Zha Ewry: Only at the point where you want to permit A/B edge touches
Tao Takashi: Zero: so that means a region domain has to deal with that?
Zero Linden: (di I say "grid" like that? Bad dog!)
Gareth Ellison: what if i want 2 region domains side by side?