User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Dec 11

[2008/11/29 19:11] Patnad Babii: also meeting happen every weeks there is Zero's office hour
[2008/11/29 19:11] Patnad Babii: Tuesday @ 1pm and Thursdays at 8:30 am
[2008/11/29 19:11] SignpostMarv Martin: is Zero back yet ? :-P
[2008/11/29 19:12] Patnad Babii: no its infinity whos making them think
[2008/12/01 19:23] Saijanai Kuhn: so even more silly trivial stuff: looks like I can implement a pyyogp level client using flash AND an AD using flash. Now I have an excuse to learn flash ;-)
[2008/12/01 19:23] SignpostMarv Martin: whut ?
[2008/12/01 19:24] Scooter Back: see if it will work with swish. It makes .fla files, but easier to use
[2008/12/01 19:24] Scooter Back: swf files, that is
[2008/12/01 19:24] Saijanai Kuhn: actionscript 3.0 supports http and socket objects which is all you need for a text-only client
[2008/12/01 19:25] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm. handy
[2008/12/01 19:25] SignpostMarv Martin: no firefox extension instead then ? :-P
[2008/12/01 19:25] Saijanai Kuhn: eh. Gareth was working on a full blown client plugin with FIreFox. Got about .2 FPSP with it though
[2008/12/01 19:25] Saijanai Kuhn: FPS*
[2008/12/04 8:23] Tree Kyomoon: zero's hours still on today or?
[2008/12/04 8:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's office hours without Zero:
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/165/113/27
[2008/12/04 8:36] Goldie Katsu: sighs
[2008/12/04 8:36] Rissa Maidstone: lol
[2008/12/04 8:37] Rissa Maidstone: Zero Zero
[2008/12/04 8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: nada even
[2008/12/04 8:37] Dream Land: :))
[2008/12/04 8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: topic at Zero's today is OGP directions with or without LInden participation
[2008/12/04 9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: important non-LL session today folks
[2008/12/04 9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: important non-Linden meeting today, folks
[2008/12/04 9:25] Eddy Stryker: where's the meeting
[2008/12/04 9:26] Goldie Katsu:
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/165/113/27
-- Instant message logging enabled --
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: so...Im still planning to be here at zeros' for this morning. It seems like we can still have really interesting discussions on the platform and invite people from opensim if the lindens are too busy to talk to us.
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: my question is...why do the lindens have to cut the zero office hours back to 1 per week? are they short staffed now?
[8:30] Zha Ewry: Short staffed is a hard to quantify term, but certainly Zero (and Infinity) are scarce resouces, which aren't duplicated widely. (Most web 2.x shops would be hard pressed to compe up with too many people of Zero's caliber, or Infinity's)
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: True, but I would argue that the combined time and resources of the participants of the group would easily justify 2 hours a week of either zero or infinity's time.
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: scarce resource or not :)
[8:33] Zha Ewry: wonders how much code or actual design, the group has delivered, but it's not exactly abandonment. I think its more trying to find good ways of engaging the community
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: The ideas and feedback from one meeting alone are extremely valuable. I just think that "trimming back the hours" in spite of overwhelming support and enthusiastic participation from the members is another linden "public misstep"
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: for people that run a social network, they seem to lack "social intelligence" ... (sometimes anyway)
[8:37] Zha Ewry: I think we'll have to see how it plays out. I certainly share some of the concerns.
[8:39] Freemason Magic: maybe they absorbing a lot of new developments TREE
[8:40] MarillaAnne Slade: sigh ... or maybe they are afraid of helping their competition too much ... yeah ... i'll say it.
[8:40] MarillaAnne Slade: you knew i would
[8:40] Freemason Magic: competition?
[8:40] Freemason Magic: not so sure
[8:40] Tree Kyomoon: Im sure there are reasons internally but I still think cutting back the hours is a dumb move on their part. It sends the wrong message at this time I think.
[8:41] MarillaAnne Slade: precisely Tree
[8:41] Freemason Magic: well if you read the goals of this grouo
[8:41] Morgaine Dinova: In this instance, the "competition" is actually trying to help LL ... seems a backwards move to wave it away
[8:41] Freemason Magic: the people developing this new architectures are going to need millions
[8:41] Freemason Magic: like us
[8:42] Freemason Magic: where are we getting the money
[8:42] Freemason Magic: to build this new architecture
[8:43] Freemason Magic: just the testing of a simple multi domain protocol cost millions
[8:43] Morgaine Dinova: Funnily enough, it costs no more to design and build something right than it costs to do it wrong. And it costs far less in the long run.
[8:43] MarillaAnne Slade: why would that be ?
[8:44] Freemason Magic: hardware,software,physical,electronics,wirelss,mobile,multi server domain
[8:45] Freemason Magic: routers, firewall, data centeres, servers, security
[8:45] Freemason Magic: etc
[8:46] Freemason Magic: the goal is 40 million users
[8:46] Freemason Magic: are you aware of that Slade?
[8:46] Morgaine Dinova: They've got all that in place, Freemason. In fact, they have too many resources in place already, and it's costing them dearly. What they lack is a design that scales.
[8:46] MarillaAnne Slade: perhaps i do not understand fully the true functioning of an open source environment ... but ... let's say ... i have a cell phone running windows mobile .... it seems that there would be room for at least me and 9 others to get thru prelim testing
[8:46] Rex Cronon: how can u have 40mill users, when max nr on line is around 70k?
[8:47] Freemason Magic: coreect REX
[8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: the target and the current capability are two different things.
[8:47] Freemason Magic: but REX remember the web
[8:47] Freemason Magic: did it
[8:47] Freemason Magic: remember the web in 1980
[8:47] Freemason Magic: i was part of it
[8:48] Freemason Magic: now is 28 years
[8:48] Freemason Magic: after
[8:48] tx Oh: there was no 'web' in 1980
[8:48] Freemason Magic: is close to billion
[8:48] MarillaAnne Slade: lol
[8:49] Tree Kyomoon: billion? I thought it was 300,000,000
[8:49] Freemason Magic: ok tc 1990
[8:49] Freemason Magic: sorry
[8:49] tx Oh: even there was no 'web'
[8:49] MarillaAnne Slade: 1990 correct no
[8:49] tx Oh: but i remember gopher and wais before mosaic and ncsa httpd
[8:49] Freemason Magic: sorry no web
[8:49] MarillaAnne Slade: come on free
[8:49] Freemason Magic: is interenet
[8:50] Freemason Magic: 1980 was
[8:50] Freemason Magic: very few
[8:50] Morgaine Dinova: The target isn't 40m users btw, it's 2bn users and 60m regions. That's the origination Project Motivation of the AWG, presented by LL. --> [1]
[8:50] Morgaine Dinova: No timescale though, hehe
[8:50] MarillaAnne Slade: lol i'd hate to see that mob arrive today
[8:51] MarillaAnne Slade: and by the time we reach those numbers ... the platform we know will be looooong gone
[8:51] Freemason Magic: 40 million on line yes
[8:51] LaPiscean Liberty: If they did they would be on they own regoins that they booted up to on their own computers
[8:52] MarillaAnne Slade: gone with the wind like gopher etc
[8:52] Freemason Magic: can be use now to play
[8:52] Freemason Magic: that is the idea i think
[8:52] Freemason Magic: locally
[8:52] Morgaine Dinova: That's what made me interested in AWG. I'm a scalability person. LL lost interest in scalability pretty soon though, it almost became a forbidden subject after a few months.
[8:53] MarillaAnne Slade: ok ok i know some of that still is in use but ... in general ... gone
[8:53] Freemason Magic: realXtend server
[8:53] Freemason Magic: can help
[8:53] Tree Kyomoon: maybe that is why they are cutting back office hours...to get people to go away so they can build infrastructure
[8:53] Rex Cronon: no, it was more like each sim should hold around 1000users:)
[8:53] Tree Kyomoon: I had hoped we would be well into a professional quality in world building tools (sculptie editor??), building offline stuff, and a real ECMA scripting language by now
[8:54] MarillaAnne Slade: pff the sims would have to be huge for that to be enjoyable
[8:55] Morgaine Dinova: Marilla: not at all. Even 20k users in a sim is less packing density that in a human RL crowd, it's 1.8m per person. We're used to much tighter packing in RL.
[8:55] Morgaine Dinova: Standup football crowds have much tigher packing.
[8:55] MarillaAnne Slade: and you think i think that's enjoyable?
[8:56] LaPiscean Liberty: lol
[8:56] MarillaAnne Slade: there's a reason i live in a village with 3 main streets rl
[8:56] Tree Kyomoon: A lot of people seem to
[8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Dunno, football crowds seem to enjoy it, and so do the front crowds at a music concert.
[8:56] Tree Kyomoon: i personally like my 8 acres /person ratio in the country
[8:56] Rex Cronon: might be, if u r a spectator at a football game:)
[8:56] MarillaAnne Slade: but that is something people enjoy for a very short time
[8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: me too, I prefer a whole mountain to myself. But we can't second-guess what others like.
[8:57] tx Oh: for live concerts it would be good to get more then 500 people together
[8:57] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
[8:58] Cane Janick: don't have too look at how many flocked to the openspaces when they were cheap
[8:58] MarillaAnne Slade: lol I'm assuming you're pointing out that the popularity was not based on getting to feel like one was in a packed sardine can?
[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: Fortunately we can work on the client side of the crowd rendering problem ourselves since it's open-source. But looks like LL is dead in the water in that area. Zero actually said in an Office Hours that LL were not going to scale regions, so that was up to 3rd parties to do.
[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: So I guess all the large music concerts will be in open grids.
[9:00] tx Oh: oh, and opensim is a place to get it in practice
[9:00] Hermit Barber: tx: That would actually be easy, have one sim which is the actual stage sending to n sims which hold the audience. Simply reserve the stage coordinates in all the other sims and translate the region name on the fly :-P
[9:00] MarillaAnne Slade: That's weird considering the music industry's interest ... becuase truly ... 500 live on a sim would be cool for that.
[9:00] Rex Cronon: if that happens OS might not be comatible with the main grid
[9:00] Lalinda Lovell: says look over here and points, to distract morgaine from her scalability obsession
[9:00] Rex Cronon: compatible*
[9:01] MarillaAnne Slade: is there no reason to force SL to change it's compatibility?
[9:01] Alisha Matova: rezzables is doing some interesting "load" testing on opensim [2]
[9:01] tx Oh: oh, i know a concert manager who askes how many people he could entertain.. as i said about 60 he started laughing
[9:02] tx Oh: and with a sim corner trick about 240 :-)
[9:03] Lalinda Lovell: thats why people book rl stadiums
[9:03] tx Oh: yepp
[9:03] Rex Cronon: unless the tickets are like 1000USD, he can make no profit
[9:03] Lalinda Lovell: beware, if greenies set something up it will end up being pay per visit because they are the merchandisers from Hades
[9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: that's LL's problem if they're not compatible ... they'll lose the profits from large concerts
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: that's LL's problem if they're not compatible ... they'll lose the profits from large concerts
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: that's LL's problem if they're not compatible ... they'll lose the profits from large concerts
[9:04] tx Oh: and because of the atmo
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: It's one of the reasons why abandoning Office Hours is so myopic ... it denies LL the chance to work towards compatibility.
[9:04] Rex Cronon: looks like the group chat it is fighting to survive:(
[9:05] Morgaine Dinova: Oh boy, is IM broken ....
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: how many sims could you support with 60,000,000 and 100,000 a month to maintain (which is the average cost of a stadium)
[9:05] Lalinda Lovell: the governance team largely abandoned their office hours last year, as soon as people attend office hours and ask questions and want action they become work and get abandoned
[9:06] Lalinda Lovell: no offence to all the hard working lindens reading this chat :)
[9:06] MarillaAnne Slade: ok ya'll I"m bailing on this conversation ... I have to concentrate on writing so that a person using a translator can understand me ... for a native Texan ... that's monumental work.
[9:06] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe it's a feature: send back an error message to say the operation failed, and then doing it anyway. They should patent it ;-)
[9:07] Tree Kyomoon: loves texas
[9:08] Rex Cronon: i actually might be kind of hard for lindens to maintain their current office hours. it seems they r restructuring
[9:08] Rex Cronon: it*
[9:08] Lalinda Lovell: lets face it, they dont want hassle, who does
[9:09] Tree Kyomoon: its unfortunate they see extremely valueable input from a highly skilled group as a "hassle" if thats the case
[9:09] Tree Kyomoon: particularly where its no cost to them other than a bit of time
[9:09] Lalinda Lovell: time is money
[9:10] Hermit Barber: Especially when M Linden has been making anti-open source noise - and when we know that OS is one thing that Mitch Kapor and Bill Gates can agree on.
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: right but if you add up the hourly wage of each person here, I know zero is probably paid well but theres no way he makes 2000 or more per hour.
[9:10] Rex Cronon: it might not be "hassel", it might be that they just don't have the time
[9:11] Morgaine Dinova: And losing the grip on the tiger's tail is loss of money. Office Hours were part of that grip, and the tiger's heading into the distance already in several areas.
[9:11] Rex Cronon: especially since right now they seem to be working on server version 1.25, which will hopefully be realeased before christmass
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: my guess is Morgaine is probably right...thats occams razor for you
[9:12] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: they can't "not have time" for 2 hours per week. If they're slave driving their employees to that extent, then things are beyond repair.
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: exactly
[9:12] Hermit Barber: It might not be a good career move to advocate it if management has lost its head and wants to run in circles wringing its feathers at being left behind unless everyone runs faster - while the world runs past.
[9:13] Lalinda Lovell: indeed the tiger has fled
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: aka "openlife" which is already working and fairly fleshed out
[9:13] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, it does seem to be a management problem in this instance. Several Lindens have hinted at it *very* strongly.
[9:13] Lalinda Lovell: morgaine was the ringmaster and M Linden opened the cage
[9:15] Tree Kyomoon: ah well...complaining probably wont get us anywhere but I certainly hope this is only a temporary situation.
[9:15] Morgaine Dinova: But I don't think we're guessing right actually. The fact that Zero won't put in a presence is monumentally worrying --- it can't be overwork, even if he's being groomed for CTO. It's got to be that they're doing something negative from the community's PoV.
[9:16] MarillaAnne Slade: ok bak with a question I've been asked and I have wondered about ... (why people ask me these questions I have no idea) ...
[9:16] MarillaAnne Slade: how dependent is the open source community on SL for use of servers, exiting code ... etc etc etc
[9:16] MarillaAnne Slade: um existing code
[9:17] Alisha Matova: Unsure as to the reason, could all be peachs, but Sidewinder sent me a note about his moving on...
[9:17] Morgaine Dinova: I think it's pretty clear though that they've shut down AWG ... just not officially.
[9:17] LaPiscean Liberty: some of the main stuff we use in sl isnt implemented in OS yet
[9:17] Morgaine Dinova: Alisha: that's sad
[9:17] Lalinda Lovell: yes AWG is a dead parrot
[9:17] LaPiscean Liberty: and the .org site is outdated in its list of supported LSL
[9:17] Rex Cronon: hopefully this is just a temp situation, while they r working to make sure that 1.25 won't crash the cristmas for everybody
[9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Well how about some Christmassy explanations for all this mystery .... they've been working non-stop on a total Xmas makeover like MMOGs do. ;-))))
[9:19] Rex Cronon: from what i heard it seems that sidewinder no longer works at ll. it might be just a rumor
[9:19] MarillaAnne Slade: it's no rumor Rex
[9:19] Lalinda Lovell: rex, no offence, you dont know shit from shinola
[9:20] Tree Kyomoon: well AWG hasnt been effective...its been a couple of years and we are still pretty much where we were at that time with only invisible(to the community) improvements
[9:20] Hermit Barber: Rex: The void sim owners were also hopeful - for a while. And the landlords are also hgopeful - even though M Linden has explained that he sees LL as being in the "Land Business," not providing server facilities or software services.
[9:20] Rex Cronon: i made an assumption
[9:20] Alisha Matova: Wing tanks topped off, leaving controlled airspace... headed for a new airfield, somewhere over the horizon... "Sidewinder over and out"... (Posted on Twitter on Sunday Dec 7, 2008)
[9:20] Alisha Matova: =/
[9:21] MarillaAnne Slade: do a google search ... or wait 3 seconds for someone to post a link ... there's stuff on the web.
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: void sims were a way to help people take smaller risks to grow their businesses...and LL crushed that seemingly without thinking
[9:21] Lalinda Lovell: M Linden is for profit, every company needs to float and there is a global recession, they dont have time and energy for pleasing every man and his dog anymore
[9:21] Lalinda Lovell: void sims were abused by greedy buggers
[9:21] LaPiscean Liberty: iu thought it was to offset leavinf sl to cheaper sims in OS
[9:22] Hermit Barber: [3]
[9:22] LaPiscean Liberty: and it worked till they reversed it
[9:22] Lalinda Lovell: it wasnt to offset, it was to give people privacy and a sea view
[9:22] MarillaAnne Slade: yes but with the open sims they made a major mistake in their thinking (LL did) ... they were thinking people will pay to keep their art
[9:22] Tree Kyomoon: if they are for profit, why arent they making the platform more commercially friendly by offering professional content dev tools, proprietary control for corporate simulations etc.? Or trying to partner with major gaming content companies?
[9:22] MarillaAnne Slade: no they couldn't have been thinking that
[9:23] Tree Kyomoon: I think they are actively opposed to profit myself, given their actions and more accurately, inaction.
[9:23] Lalinda Lovell: tree, i agree on the other companies part, i think M is planning to make sl more attractive first, and attract other companies in
[9:23] Alisha Matova: i think we all played in to thier hands, the grid got too big and they wanted to scale us back...
[9:23] LaPiscean Liberty: i have sims on OLG and work in LCO and when they did this to the OS it drove many to these grids
[9:23] MarillaAnne Slade: but the end result was ... they sucked the heart and soul out of way tooo many every day players ... by destroying the opportunity for art to continue
[9:23] Lalinda Lovell: marilla thats just hippy talk
[9:24] Lalinda Lovell: this is a business
[9:24] MarillaAnne Slade: you wish
[9:24] Lalinda Lovell: not a charity
[9:24] MarillaAnne Slade: this is art
[9:24] Lalinda Lovell: when you pay for all the servers, you will see
[9:24] MarillaAnne Slade: from the day you log in until the day you commit harikari (sp)
[9:24] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: Nothing other than the customers of L:L were abused. I repeatedly asked M Linden what would constitute "abuse" he couldn't or wouldn't reply. LL stated that people who used Open Sims for other than light use would not be supported if they had performance problems. That explicitly permited "other than light use" or the restriction made no sense.
[9:25] MarillaAnne Slade: Lalinda ... what do you think is created on those servers?
[9:25] Tree Kyomoon: that guy who spent 1M dollars to print a fake edition of the new york times was "art" . This has to be a business or become endowed by a giant hippie billionaire.
[9:25] MarillaAnne Slade: all i do is pay tier to support the existance of my art and other people's art
[9:25] Lalinda Lovell: the sims has specific intentions and some people used them for heavy traffic businesses, they need to pay for what they use, simple
[9:25] MarillaAnne Slade: if a script is created ... what does it spin?
[9:25] Alisha Matova: i think we see SL as an artistic tool, LL now sees dollar signs
[9:25] MarillaAnne Slade: what does it charge for?
[9:25] Morgaine Dinova: VWs are not business YET, LL's turnover is a drop in the ocean. Also, Philip said as much many times --- he's in this for the vision. If you base your future designs on current business, you're dead.
[9:25] Lalinda Lovell: marilla when you have smelled BIAB you will know its not art
[9:26] Lalinda Lovell: philip isnt running it anymore though is he
[9:26] MarillaAnne Slade: lalinda if you don't know what you're working for ...
[9:26] Morgaine Dinova: He's still on the board
[9:26] MarillaAnne Slade: you will never be successful with vw's
[9:26] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: And if it had ever been an issue, LL could have stopped it from becoming a problkem by retaining their policy of selling 4 at a time. They didn't. Instead they welcomed and expanded the market on their most popular product ever by removing that restriction on sales.
[9:26] Alisha Matova: hehe lasty Phil sighting put him in a 3rd world country tring to improve their power grid
[9:27] Lalinda Lovell: it doesnt mean that people should misuse those sims though
[9:27] Lalinda Lovell: the cost is too high for what people pay
[9:27] LaPiscean Liberty: if ppl can, ppl will
[9:27] Lalinda Lovell: exactly
[9:27] Lalinda Lovell: its human nature
[9:27] MarillaAnne Slade: Lalinda ... either you don't know propaganda or you want to live and create it.
[9:27] Morgaine Dinova: We're barely on rung 1 of the ladder. All business made so far in SL is as irrelevant as AOL's walled garden business proceeds 15 years ago.
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: hmm forterra olive vs [secondlife....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2UZgREOVAA]
[9:28] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: You do understand that the load on a sim is driven by interaction between objects? On an n! or n^2 basis
[9:28] Lalinda Lovell: i have my own vision of how sl can succeed, and i know some lindens shared the same vision last year, but the coders are not in charge anymore, and M has taken a different path
[9:28] Alisha Matova: isnt SL about pushing the limits? what did they expect us to do with OS sims.....In RL business if i admitted to underestinating a networks usage, i would be in court or paying to fix it
[9:29] Lalinda Lovell: hermit, i ran my own grid, i know it all perfectly well, and i know what a business takes to run
[9:29] MarillaAnne Slade: anyone who believes that the open sims were purely and simply abused is so far removed from the individuals of SL that they cannot begin to understand the impact.
[9:29] Lalinda Lovell: marilla, do you even know what a BIAB is?
[9:29] Lalinda Lovell: and what it does to people?
[9:29] Morgaine Dinova: OpenSpaces was a red herring, forget it. They had servers doing nothing because their sim design isn't upwardly scalable, so they thought up a (silly) way of using that wasted power. It failed, no surprise.
[9:30] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: I am a business person, not an IT person.
[9:30] MarillaAnne Slade: LOL Lalinda ... the fact that you ran a grid tells me much
[9:30] Tree Kyomoon: hmm IBM and Forterra...I wonder out loud if IBM is running that way instead? [4]
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: This could actually be about a takeover, maybe a takeover by a company not friendly to open source.
[9:32] Hermit Barber: If you are not a fool, when you watch a business operating in the enmbryonic stages of a space that is going to become huge, comitting suicide, then you look for alternatives. IBM is full of non-fools.
[9:32] Lalinda Lovell: or sl needs to look profitable in order to attract a buyer
[9:33] Morgaine Dinova: Doubt it though, just looking for alternative explanations for the mystery.
[9:33] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: If SL was not profitable, then it was total incompetence.
[9:33] LaPiscean Liberty: business equals propriatary or nothing to protect or profit from
[9:33] Lalinda Lovell: hardly, many businesses run in the red for years
[9:34] Lalinda Lovell: i am talking about overall annual profit
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: IBM aren't fools at all. They got into Linux long before any other major player. Even Sun were umming and ahhing still about FOSS until quite recently.
[9:34] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: Not businesses that attract the VCs that have put money into them.
[9:34] Hermit Barber: Nor any credible model based on their revue per blade.
[9:35] Hermit Barber: revenue
[9:36] Hermit Barber: LaPiscean: Business made profits right up until the early 1920s with little or no help from "propriatary" concepts.
[9:36] Lalinda Lovell: a century ago there was no internet hermit :)
[9:36] And Clawtooth: 30 years ago there wasnt one
[9:36] Hermit Barber: LaPiscean: And based on CIA data, the Soviet Union showed greater growth than the US in almost every year until the mid 1970s - without "propriatary"
[9:36] Lalinda Lovell: hail teh intarweb
[9:37] Hypatia Callisto: um, that's not exactly true. Patent and copyright have been around since the founders.
[9:37] Hypatia Callisto: what has changed is how much more pervasive it has become
[9:37] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: The Internet is not "propriatary" either :-P
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Well no VW model that bases its prices on virtual land acreage is credible, since passive acreage is not a proxy for CPU nor for bandwidth, it's only a proxy for disk storage, which costs nothing. So their business people were barking up the wrong tree from day 1.
[9:37] Hermit Barber: Hypatia: In America. But the meaning has been dramatically extended nad the purpose lost.
[9:38] Lalinda Lovell: licks hermits ear and babbles
[9:38] Hypatia Callisto: Yes, in Europe it has been around longer :P
[9:38] Hypatia Callisto: (btw, I am in Europe, natch)
[9:38] MarillaAnne Slade: wait ... i just realized no one answered my question ... which is the question that everyone keeps asking me, too ...
[9:39] Tree Kyomoon: im beginning to think no actual business types work at LL, just nerds who figure business is an afterthough
[9:39] Lalinda Lovell: marilla send them to wikipedia
[9:39] Hypatia Callisto: In fact trademark law is at its worst in the EU
[9:39] MarillaAnne Slade: precisely how dependent is the open source community on SL ... could SL "pull the plug"
[9:39] Hypatia Callisto: give people enough time to refine something I guess.
[9:39] Rex Cronon: disk storage is not free. u can't get a hdd for free, neither when u buy a computer, nor when the one u have breaks down
[9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Hyp: 65% of the SL population is non-American, so it's always more likely that one is talking to a non-American here :-)
[9:39] Hermit Barber: Hypatia: Which country in Europe had "propriatary" earlier?
[9:40] Lalinda Lovell: you have to realise that LL is many people, its coders with ideals, its nodders and yesmen, its business oriented people, its people who move forward, all working their own piece of the puzzle
[9:40] Hypatia Callisto: yes, I'm just putting a time frame on it
[9:40] Tree Kyomoon: America came to SL, got bored, and left. Now the Eurpeans are new to it.
[9:40] Lalinda Lovell: tree, wrong
[9:40] FWord Utorid: did kmart buy LL?
[9:40] Hypatia Callisto: Well, before the liberals achieved something of a revolution in the USA, the European world was dominated by mercantilism
[9:40] Lalinda Lovell: americans, japanese, and brazilians populate sl
[9:41] MarillaAnne Slade: So, do i tell the design community that AWG is afraid to answer the "Pull the plug" question?
[9:41] Rex Cronon: the open source is dependent on the sl viewer, without it doesn't work
[9:41] Lalinda Lovell: fword, you are thinking of walmart
[9:41] Hermit Barber: Rex: IBM and HP - and even Amazon - are quite happy to charge very little by the byte stored. And the former two will even put hardware on your site if you ask them and use it.
[9:41] Tree Kyomoon: there has been a mass exodus of americans from SL in the past year
[9:41] Tree Kyomoon: or two
[9:41] Hypatia Callisto: Where corporations had state granted monopolies on trade and goods
[9:41] Hypatia Callisto: (does this seem familiar)
[9:41] Rex Cronon: very little doesn't equal zero
[9:41] Lalinda Lovell: marilla tell them AWG is an ex-group, dead, and deceased, it is no more
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: disk storage is effectively "free" in terms of raw acreage needs. Ie. umpteen square Km of virtual acreage for $0.01, meshes don't require much space.
[9:42] MarillaAnne Slade: ok so i tell them that open source is dead
[9:42] Lalinda Lovell: no just AWG
[9:42] FWord Utorid: why is open source dead? or AWG?
[9:42] Lalinda Lovell: we are trying to keep it alive, but we got shot in the knees
[9:42] MarillaAnne Slade: it's just a drain on their resouces allowin their items to be copied over willy nilly?
[9:42] Rex Cronon: but, the viewer is open source, that means the open source community will have to mod the existing viewer
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: The cost of the disk storage for a 64k m^2 sim is zero, rounded to the nearest cent.
[9:42] Hermit Barber: Hypatia: Of course that was the case, but it is a different definition of "propriatary" to the modern mode I was using.
[9:42] MarillaAnne Slade: this is what they are asking me
[9:42] Tree Kyomoon: owwww my knees...Im not supposed to get bullets in there!
[9:43] Hypatia Callisto: I dont really make a difference, and there is no difference
[9:43] Hypatia Callisto: state monopolies are what they are
[9:43] Lalinda Lovell: remember that any business needs mark-ups, a potato costs a fraction of a penny, but when its been baked and served in a restaurant you get charged 1.99 plus tax because it needs to make a PROFIT
[9:43] MarillaAnne Slade: when i talk to them about possibly opening a mall in an open source ... these are the q's they ask
[9:43] FWord Utorid: i feel like i missed something quasi important, orthis is another day of talking about nothing. anyone care to elaborate why we are chanting that open source is dead and referencing the 1920s and proprietary internet?
[9:44] Tree Kyomoon: probably the biggest single cost for LL is customer service staffing, maintainance, and then power.
[9:44] Hermit Barber: Morgaine: And of course, that is where that sim should be unless there are agents actually using it.,
[9:44] Morgaine Dinova: LL's current business isn't relevant, considering where they have their sights set, at least publicly.
[9:44] Lalinda Lovell: fword, blame the hippies with a dream in their heart
[9:44] Alisha Matova: Tree, i would add bandwidth in there too
[9:44] FWord Utorid: lalinda, ok. what do i blame them for?
[9:44] Lalinda Lovell: sights or sites :P
[9:44] Lalinda Lovell: fword, everything since vietnam
[9:45] Tree Kyomoon: Im pretty sure bandwidth is fairly cheap but mabey in 5 or 6th position
[9:45] MarillaAnne Slade: no Fword anything in the last century
[9:45] Rex Cronon: fword, ask marillaane to repeat the question she is being asked
[9:45] MarillaAnne Slade: except content creation
[9:45] Tree Kyomoon: the point is, servicing us "artsy hippies" is easily the most expensive part
[9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Hermit: exactly. Acreage devoid of prims and roaming avatars costs nothing. It's well below $0.01 for any "reasonable" size.
[9:45] FWord Utorid: ok. i am blaming hippies for something, and I have no idea why I am enraged. should we be protesting something?
[9:46] MarillaAnne Slade: yes
[9:46] FWord Utorid: ok. what.
[9:46] Hermit Barber: Lallinda: On the other hand, when anyone can hire a chef and have him produce them at 1.9c each and make a 10:1 ROI at 19c each , putting the price up from $1.99 to $19.99 will induce people to reconsider their dedication to your restaurant.
[9:46] Tree Kyomoon: Im here protesting cutting this office hour.
[9:46] Rex Cronon: i can't cost nothing. it is an entry in a databes, accessing costs something
[9:46] MarillaAnne Slade: we think that vw's belong to the artists and w/o the artists there is no vw's
[9:46] Lalinda Lovell: AWG was a flower with ideals that has been trodden down by corporate businessmen who think only of the almighty dollar
[9:46] MarillaAnne Slade: is shocked to discover she's now a hippie but whatever
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Anyone without a dream is just deat meat, and a waste of perfectly good oxygen. Might as well go kill yourself right now, do a good turn for the world. ;-)
[9:47] Tree Kyomoon: As a founding member of the AWG, I can categorically say Ive always been here due to the almighty dollar, and have never been a flower of any sort.
[9:47] Lalinda Lovell: says a tree........
[9:47] MarillaAnne Slade: lol rotf
[9:47] Hermit Barber: And BTW, did anyone notice that the notecard we got was produced by a marketing person? Please choose the yellow colored turd or the brown colored turd I have set before you :-)
[9:47] Tree Kyomoon: a non flowering tree :)
[9:48] Lalinda Lovell: tree, you blossom in spring i am sure
[9:48] Tree Kyomoon: its a two party system!
[9:48] Hermit Barber: Use them to fertilize your trees?
[9:48] Tree Kyomoon: just a pile of dry bones im afraid
[9:48] Lalinda Lovell: i didnt get a notecard, what notecard?
[9:48] Hermit Barber: Agroup notice.
[9:49] Rex Cronon: what group notice?
[9:49] Lalinda Lovell: didnt get it
[9:49] Tree Kyomoon: to vote for cutting one of the hours...no room for comments, or voting to cut no hours
[9:49] MarillaAnne Slade: ok Fword do you want to try to answer the question that i keep getting asked ...everyone else is either scared of it or they don't have a clue
[9:49] FWord Utorid: you can look for notices, under groups
[9:49] FWord Utorid: marillaanne, i ain't afraid of shit
[9:49] MarillaAnne Slade: lol obviously
[9:49] Tree Kyomoon: it was a dumb survey monkey thing
[9:49] Tree Kyomoon: an insult to primates everywhere
[9:49] FWord Utorid: so what is the question?
[9:50] And Clawtooth: what were its dumb results?
[9:50] MarillaAnne Slade: ok everytime i talk to a designer about considering openingn a mall in an open source grid ... they ask two questions.
[9:50] Lalinda Lovell: well speaking as an official spokesperson for LL, i think they are making the right choice for the right reasons and have all our best interests at heart, and i for one hope the war with eurasia will end soon
[9:50] Tree Kyomoon: question was to either cut tuesday or thursday office hours
[9:50] Rex Cronon: marillaanne, could u make a notice and send it to everybody in the group?
[9:51] MarillaAnne Slade: first can SL pull the plug on open source grids ... and ... do the owners of the grids care more about intellectual property than sl does ... so far they only see open source = ripped designs.
[9:51] Rex Cronon: that way u don't have to repeat it:)
[9:51] Lalinda Lovell: marilla, sl cant pull it, and each grids has their own personal values
[9:51] Tree Kyomoon: its in the AWGroupies group notices archives already rex
[9:52] FWord Utorid: it is extremely unlikely that SL can pull the plug on opensim and other related technologies, period.
[9:52] Tree Kyomoon: [5]
[9:52] FWord Utorid: it would require a legal team the size of the chinese army and twice as smart as me
[9:52] Lalinda Lovell: i think lindens should use their time in however it best helps the majority
[9:52] MarillaAnne Slade: looks at Rex hard ... "Do you think I have that power? ... Would they trust me with that?"
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: It's nothing new, cutting OH has been ongoing for several months, and it's counter-productive. For example, when Benjamin cut his OH from 1/week to 1/month, that caused Jecek to found the User Experience group and then create the Imprudence browser project.
[9:52] FWord Utorid: so, no, LL cannot kill opensim any more than they can kill your family.
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: So this cutting off of AWG links is just going to get more work done on rivals.
[9:53] tx Oh: lol, imagine xerox would pull the m$ windows or mac plug?
[9:53] Latha Serevi: It'll be hard to find an open grid operator that caters to intellectual "property" "rights" as much as LL does.
[9:53] Tree Kyomoon: the office hours are the lindens opportunity to benefit from taking free ideas from the community. If they cut that, the ideas will go to their competition.
[9:53] Rex Cronon: i was under the impression that everybody in the group can create a notice
[9:53] Tree Kyomoon: remember, SL was nothing but an idea at one point.
[9:53] MarillaAnne Slade: Tree you just said the best words in the world to me
[9:54] MarillaAnne Slade: Ok so ... I keep telling them the same thing I've been telling them.
[9:54] Tree Kyomoon: yay!
[9:54] FWord Utorid: as for the morality and philosophy on open source simulators and whether the owners of those grids will respect intellectual property rights, i think the answer will vary from grid provider to grid provider.
[9:54] MarillaAnne Slade: It's all practice. It's all buyer beware.
[9:54] MarillaAnne Slade: Ty Fword
[9:55] Hermit Barber: MarillaAnne: I know at least 4 groups of designers - including some major names - who have migrated toooo or opened in parallel on open source grids as a result of the void sim insanity.
[9:55] MarillaAnne Slade: yeah
[9:55] MarillaAnne Slade: i own a sim next to one
[9:55] Lalinda Lovell: hermit, many stores are closing, but there is a recession so we have to expect that
[9:55] MarillaAnne Slade: in an open source grid
[9:56] MarillaAnne Slade: non are closing
[9:56] Lalinda Lovell: wrong
[9:56] MarillaAnne Slade: simply spreading out the eggs
[9:56] Lalinda Lovell: i have an open source grid and it closed
[9:56] Rex Cronon: how dod they get payed on open source grid?
[9:56] MarillaAnne Slade: yeah no we're not talking about the same thing
[9:56] MarillaAnne Slade: gradually they're figuring that part out
[9:57] FWord Utorid: there are certain unresolved issues with money handling on grids outside of SL
[9:57] Tree Kyomoon: anyway IM happy to continue providing ideas and feedback to the lindens, so I'll come to both office hours even if zero decides to only attend one :)
[9:57] Tree Kyomoon: as I can anyway
[9:58] Rex Cronon: infinity might be the host, not zero
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: There's no reason to suspect that Zero will be appearing any time soon. Infinity was drawing up a meetings plan for 6 MONTHS!!
[9:58] Lalinda Lovell: i think the best thing we can do is to be supportive in difficult times
[9:58] MarillaAnne Slade: We won't turn our focus with diligence toward our open source sim until after the first of the year
[9:58] Hermit Barber: Rex: You can get a blade on an OS grid for $US80 or less per month including all datacenter related costs. This is at a nice profit of between 15 and $25 per month (depending on the machine specs, bandwith costs and datacenter staff use) to the rack provider.
[9:58] Lalinda Lovell: support each other, support LL, support our ideas for the future
[9:58] FWord Utorid: hermit, where can you get a blade?
[9:59] Lalinda Lovell: blade?
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Well we can't support LL if they push us off ... that's the trouble.
[9:59] Hermit Barber: FWord: A number of the grids have an arrangement like that.
[9:59] Tree Kyomoon: as long as LL is here i'll remain here too...but I might not be able to continue to fund my island if a new business model doesnt make itself apparent.
[10:00] Rex Cronon: that means i can run 4 sims on it?
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe they've finally understood that their business model based on acreage pricing is about to unravel, and are doing a panic revision.
[10:01] Lalinda Lovell: rex, you can rez 400 spinning mega prims if you want
[10:01] Kevin Paisley: lol
[10:01] Hermit Barber: Lalinda: As somebody who ran a grid, I'm surprised uyou don't know. A blade is a processor with memory, on a removable circuit board, in a rack full of processors connected to a network as a comuting resource..
[10:01] Tree Kyomoon: Im pretty sure they are monitoring this conversation so in effect we are not pushed off...
[10:01] Rex Cronon: i reallize that lalinda, i am talking about how many sims i can run on the blade
[10:01] Lalinda Lovell: blades are knives here
[10:01] FWord Utorid: i want a blade
[10:02] Prospero Linden: ...and all this time I thought a blade was what you used in a swordfight
[10:02] Tree Kyomoon: or a guy that kills vampyres
[10:02] Rex Cronon: no kidding propero
[10:02] Tree Kyomoon: hey wait...a linden! I knew it!
[10:02] Rex Cronon: prospero*
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, they're always monitoring here. Infinity regularly types lines here accidentally even when "not present". :-)
[10:02] Lalinda Lovell: all hail prospero, speaker of truth and our amity
[10:02] Tree Kyomoon: heh heh
[10:02] FWord Utorid: dude, there's lindens everywhere! you just can't talk about how they are going to go out of business without them listening in!
[10:02] Lalinda Lovell: prospero can you scotch some of these rumors for us?
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: waves to Prospero ^_^
[10:03] Hermit Barber: Rex: I doubt it. That would be a retail price for a dual core. It is the current price per blade for quad cores (with much better specs than are used by LL) at the wholsale level (a rackful).
[10:03] Prospero Linden: are we going out of business?
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Don't corner Prospero, it's not fair
[10:03] Prospero Linden: I didn't get the memo
[10:03] Lalinda Lovell: never!
[10:03] Tree Kyomoon: if so...will there be a sale?
[10:03] Prospero Linden: I mean, if we're going out of business, somebody tell me, so I can stop mucking about with this whole "get server 1.25 deployed" thing
[10:03] Kevin Paisley: they will leave you there working prospero like that guy in office space....no paycheck and just working away in the basement
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:03] MarillaAnne Slade: hmmm somebody must have been getting close to some sort of truth
[10:03] Kevin Paisley: with no stapler
[10:04] Hermit Barber: Prospero: Only if somebody at the top is stupid, insane or both.
[10:04] Prospero Linden: works in a paperless office
[10:04] FWord Utorid: prospero: just because you're going out of business doesn't mean you acknowledge it or stop working.
[10:04] Rex Cronon: rumors run wild when no lindens around
[10:04] MarillaAnne Slade: didn't that guy take off with the whole shabang?
[10:04] Lalinda Lovell: prospero, i blindly support you and our dark overloards and am at your command
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Yay! I've never managed to work paperless, grrrr
[10:04] Alisha Matova: dont tell dunder miflin that
[10:04] Tree Kyomoon: actually I think linden lab is formerly black mesa.
[10:04] MarillaAnne Slade: boy howdy prospero, lalinda is telling you the truth
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: hahahaha
[10:05] Prospero Linden: The only reason I can see us going out of business is if 300 of us all decide, "eh, we're tired of doing this Second Life thing, let's go to the beach. We're done."
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: And Zero refuses to put in an appearance because he ate the cake, and is embarassed ;-)
[10:05] Prospero Linden: We're really too busy to go out of business right now.
[10:05] FWord Utorid: that's what I thought, but people were trying to scare me.
[10:05] Prospero Linden: No time for that.
[10:05] FWord Utorid: the key thing in businessis to say everything is fine until after the government has the files
[10:05] Tree Kyomoon: (that was a joke...ha ha ... fat chance)
[10:05] Lalinda Lovell: dont give zero a hard time in his absence
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: Haha, well said
[10:06] Alisha Matova: and the beach is far to cold atm
[10:06] Hypatia Callisto: Science to do :)
[10:06] Hermit Barber: I know some businesses that didn't bother with the files. They just headed to the beach.
[10:06] Tree Kyomoon: for the avvies who are ... still alive.
[10:06] Rex Cronon: i though lindens were busy working on 1.25 too,
[10:06] FWord Utorid: ok. so infinity linden cancels one meeting, and 'open source is dead' and 'awg is dead' ring through the corridors.
[10:07] Lalinda Lovell: awg is now redundant
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles at the Portal references
[10:07] Tree Kyomoon: Fword I think that just means we're all passionate and emotional supporters.
[10:07] Rex Cronon: but it takes a linden to say that for people to believe
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Nobody said open source was dead, nobody with their head screwed on anyway. Open source is the rapidly departing tiger with the attractive tail.
[10:08] Hypatia Callisto: enjoys the cake :P
[10:08] Lalinda Lovell: prospero do you agree that awg had too many cooks that spoiled the broth and became unworkable as a concept?
[10:08] FWord Utorid: i came in on the middle of the conversation and people were talking trash because it's christmas and they have no presents
[10:08] Tree Kyomoon: the cake is a lie
[10:08] Hermit Barber: THere is no cake
[10:08] Prospero Linden: Lalinda : I am not deeply involved enough in AWG to have an informed opinion
[10:09] Hermit Barber: There is no spoon either
[10:09] Lalinda Lovell: then just agree with me :)
[10:09] Hypatia Callisto: no, it's delicious and moist :)
[10:09] Prospero Linden: likes his cake to be full perms so he can have it and eat it too
[10:09] Tree Kyomoon: now the eggs are in the scramble
[10:09] Lalinda Lovell: throiws pudding
[10:09] FWord Utorid: the issue with AWG is that there's no discernable finish line. No 'deliverables'.
[10:09] FWord Utorid: just a lot of very broad misconceptions.
[10:09] Tree Kyomoon: (checks to see if anyone got the bioshock reference)
[10:09] Lalinda Lovell: zero and infinity are too busy to waste time with awg matters i think
[10:10] FWord Utorid: they need to decide what 1.0 is.
[10:10] FWord Utorid: busy doing what?
[10:10] Lalinda Lovell: working!
[10:10] Tree Kyomoon: science
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: FWord: AWG had deliverables: a protocol to be presented to the IETF. Unfortunately, someone lost the paperwork.
[10:10] tx Oh: if you reread the note you can see that just the zero linden hour is cuted, not the awg sponsored meetings
[10:11] Prospero Linden: Somebody did 1/Zero and got Infinity. Somebody else did 1/Infinity and got Zero. Then everybody was confused.
[10:11] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha
[10:11] Alisha Matova: lol
[10:11] Hypatia Callisto: throws all the data into a fire :)
[10:11] FWord Utorid: ok. the protocol that SL runs on isn't adequate anyway.
[10:11] Tree Kyomoon: what can I say? the dog was coming after me and I handed it the papers...couldnt stand the idea of being buried again
[10:11] Lalinda Lovell: awg was a nice idea, but its been long enough to see that its non-productive and lindens need to take the ball back and get on with work
[10:11] FWord Utorid: sure, the part that prospero works on is perfect, but the rest of it is broken
[10:12] tx Oh: lol
[10:12] Tree Kyomoon: i disagree lalinda
[10:12] Lalinda Lovell: tree, then what have we achieved?
[10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Lalinda: I'm afraid not. Decoupling itself from the community merely ensures that community protocols are incompatible, and then LL is truly dead.
[10:13] Lalinda Lovell: LL isnt dead until its warm and dead
[10:13] Alisha Matova: Lalinda: didnt agent domain come from here?
[10:13] FWord Utorid: the asset LL has is not the proprietary nature of it's crummy technology, it's the brand name that Second Life represents.
[10:13] Lalinda Lovell: 0.o
[10:13] Tree Kyomoon: we have shared our ideas and feedback with LL. Given them direction and opiinions. We continue to do that. LL listens to some and ignores others as was always the understanding
[10:14] Lalinda Lovell: we have shared ideas like many groups do, its been nice, but not really produced anything, i think sai would agree
[10:14] Tree Kyomoon: and its all publicly available on the wiki.
[10:14] Rex Cronon: sai not here
[10:14] FWord Utorid: ok. so basically, what the 'failure' is, is failure to provide a draft specification to the IETF for the protocol OGP
[10:14] Tree Kyomoon: its produced a sense of belonging among the group members and a sense of allegiance for some of us
[10:15] Hypatia Callisto: some, I suppose. :)
[10:15] FWord Utorid: which is laden in controversy and mired in treachery and deceit caused by Epic Linden's desire to see us all doomed
[10:15] tx Oh: yeah! come out with a RFC.
[10:15] Tree Kyomoon: and given others the opportunity to antagonize
[10:15] Lalinda Lovell: so does the boy scouts
[10:15] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: Lalinda: well since we don't have access to SL server code, talking is the best the community could do, and designing a protocol. What else could be expected? If server code were open we could do more.
[10:15] tx Oh: i told that since several month now
[10:15] Tree Kyomoon: whats wrong with the boy scouts?
[10:15] Prospero Linden: You guys have done more than just talk
[10:16] Prospero Linden: Code was developed on both sides for the OGP teleport beta
[10:16] FWord Utorid: so the only solution is to set things on fire and complain because nobody wrote a piece of paper and mailed it to Bob at the IETF
[10:16] Lalinda Lovell: what did we achieve prospero?
[10:16] tx Oh: morgaine, recognize the fact that there are up and running opensim grids
[10:16] Prospero Linden: In other words, there was at least one technology demonstration
[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: Look at the massive progress in parallel on viewers, just because they open-sourced. LL could entirely drop all viewer development and they'd still be fine, just dropping hints for new interfaces occasionally.
[10:16] FWord Utorid: this group succeeded in making Prok angry, and that's all it needed to do.
[10:16] Tree Kyomoon: well thats encouraging...anything more than having the opportunity to share my ideas is gravy
[10:17] Hypatia Callisto: that's not very hard to do FWord :)
[10:17] FWord Utorid: then AWG is WIN.
[10:17] Prospero Linden: holds his tongue
[10:17] Lalinda Lovell: ok 1 demo in 10 months? not a valuable use of our combined time
[10:17] Alisha Matova: fword: and thats whats really important here
[10:17] Rex Cronon: this group creation has nothing to do wih prokofy
[10:17] Tree Kyomoon: I miss prok...
[10:17] Hermit Barber: Amen Hypatia. Do you have the shirt?
[10:17] Lalinda Lovell: tree, is prok dead?
[10:17] Tree Kyomoon: I havent seen him/her for a long time
[10:17] Prospero Linden: Lalinda : AWG was about rengineering the protocols for virtual words "from scratch", although informed by the experience that we have with SL and with OpenSim
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: tx Oh: indeed, there's no stopping the Opensim effort, it's moving at lightspeed. And that's the problem, trying to keep LL even in the design game.
[10:18] Prospero Linden: YOu expect a long lead time before a lot of stuff really gets working
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: As Propsero says.
[10:18] FWord Utorid: if awg was about reengineering the protocols, then it failed at that, but it did allow people to express a lot of how they feel things should be reengineered.
[10:18] Lalinda Lovell: so prospero, are you saying that awg is important, we should continue, and we can achieve a lot?
[10:18] Prospero Linden: *I* think so.
[10:18] Alisha Matova: At the very least i think this group has been a great way to voice our opinions on how we thing this whole thing should be structured
[10:18] Hermit Barber: Nice answer Prospero.
[10:18] Tree Kyomoon: I would like to see more stuff on the blog about wins LL is making, and why LL is still the best bang for the buck compared to open life, olive, and what have you.
[10:19] Prospero Linden: But, again, I'm the server release manager, so I spend my time really thinking about getting the next server out, not designing the next proposal.
[10:19] Lalinda Lovell: can we get small payments of lindens as bonuses?
[10:19] Hypatia Callisto: is reluctant to call anything "dead" until she is sure it has no pulse.
[10:19] Prospero Linden: So I'm not speaking "for LL" here, and I'm not the one to do that.
[10:19] FWord Utorid: yes, we should continue awg so we are telling the lindens all of our ideas and becoming immersed in the zombie mindset instead of telling competitors and mom about what's REALLY going on. Which makes Prok angry.
[10:19] Prospero Linden: Let me propose a hypothesis:
[10:19] Hypatia Callisto: Lively is on its way to dead, but SL. not anytime soon.
[10:19] Tree Kyomoon: wasnt prospero the dungeon master in "the tempest" ?
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: I'll try to test it.
[10:20] Prospero Linden: Hypothesis : AWG early on was very active and vital, and the OGP beta was very exciting. When things don't continue to move at the same vital rate, people start declaring it dead, even though it isn't really. It's much lke people who declare SL "dead" (as they've done for years) when sales in a paritcular in-world area slump.
[10:21] FWord Utorid: truth: people declare things dead when they are having a bad day. It was a spot of mustard that destroyed AWG, which will be 'back' when they get bored.
[10:21] Prospero Linden: In other words -- lots of us, including zero and infinity, are very busy, and there are things going on at LL in addition to OGP work, and we can't always talk about all of them. I think y'all are overreacting a bit to a slowdown inc ommunications :)
[10:21] Lalinda Lovell: exactly!
[10:21] Lalinda Lovell: thats what i said prospero
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Prospero: the only problem with that is that activity (and in particular *presence* at meetings) is seen as the metric of "being alive".
[10:21] Lalinda Lovell: lindens are busy working
[10:22] FWord Utorid: second life is dead because my cricket's knee aches and because my wife-like robot is getting rusty.
[10:22] tx Oh: yeah! to much rumors!
[10:22] Tree Kyomoon: I need to get me a wife...to sell her organs to black sabbath
[10:23] FWord Utorid: truth: the simple fact is, whatever people think OGP / AWG is supposed to be, it's not. What it really is, is a group of people. And groups of people accomplish talking and making messes ofthings. SoIt's a successful group in that context.
[10:23] Lalinda Lovell: things going on is a code for secret plans relating to reverse zombie intarwebs
[10:23] Tree Kyomoon: we're definitely good at being a group of people.
[10:23] FWord Utorid: the truth about these virtual worlds is that it's still 12 years too soon.
[10:23] Lalinda Lovell: 11.6 precisely
[10:24] Niaht Nakamichi: suddenly flashes back to 1992-94
[10:24] Tree Kyomoon: noooooo...I'll be like in my 50's by then, one foot in the grave...the crypt keeper...ewwwww
[10:24] Prospero Linden: 12 years too soon for what?
[10:24] FWord Utorid: the infrastructure and the hardware are not in place for the reliability of the communication and speed of management systems to measure up to the 'Life' expectation.
[10:24] tx Oh: oh, i liked my time spending in lpmud... and this is ages ago
[10:24] Prospero Linden: found the web very useful in 1993 even though we didn't have eBay, Google, amazon.com, facebook, javascript, etc. yet
[10:25] FWord Utorid: not to mention that wonderful gap between humans and rendered humans.
[10:25] Tree Kyomoon: perhaps we should call it "second primordial life" ?
[10:25] Lalinda Lovell: just star trek porn
[10:25] Prospero Linden: actually doesn't thnk the goal of virtual worlds is to have rendered humans look just like real humans... I think as some level that by vieweing that as a goal we're referring to cars as "horseless carriages"
[10:25] tx Oh: i still don't use facebook or amazon
[10:25] Tree Kyomoon: rendered humans = soylent green
[10:25] Niaht Nakamichi: me too! lynx links whatever was my friend, and a great aside from the BBS
[10:26] Prospero Linden: still uses elinks sometimes
[10:26] FWord Utorid: we know all of the math and all of the art needed to pull off a virtual world, but the computards don't measure up yet
[10:26] Lalinda Lovell: sl is my whole world, its everything literally, outside ceases to exist
[10:26] Morgaine Dinova: wget FTW :-)
[10:26] Niaht Nakamichi: =) still do here too.. sometimes is just easier...
[10:26] Prospero Linden: FWord : I disagree. No, they can't do everything everybody wants to do, but they still do something.
[10:26] Prospero Linden: Morgaine : I used to use wget, but now I use curl
[10:27] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, same thing, but curl is more flexible.
[10:27] Lalinda Lovell: prospero, do lindens realise how vital sl is to the shut-ins?
[10:27] Rex Cronon: interesting talk here, but rl calls. bye. too bad there is no trascript for group chat
[10:27] tx Oh: oh, i use curl && wget
[10:27] Prospero Linden: Lalinda : being an effective shut-in myself, sure :)
[10:27] Tree Kyomoon: anyone here into WOW? I think a nice commercial quality interactive bunch of sims adventure in SL would be fantastic and just what it needs
[10:27] FWord Utorid: prospero: i try to fly from one place to another, i see gray boxes, and a void, and i bump into things that are not there. you are free to disagree, but it's 12 years away from 'life'
[10:27] Prospero Linden: is not really a shut-in, but since he works from home, he sometimes feels like one
[10:27] Niaht Nakamichi: Just imagine the things we will say about early virtual world clients somday.. the fond memories.. I'm nostalgic already xD
[10:28] Lalinda Lovell: thats good,i would hate to be banned, it would be my death (note that on my account please)
[10:28] Prospero Linden: FWord : it may be 12 years away from 'life', but that doesnt' make it completely worthles. And, yeah, there are bugs right now with texture loading and such
[10:28] Prospero Linden: But it's not all as bad as you make it out to be.
[10:28] Lalinda Lovell: its all good!
[10:28] Hypatia Callisto: has been around VR since 1995, so I am already reminiscing about the 2.5 d ones :)
[10:28] Prospero Linden: Second Life isn't *just* bad textures and bumping into things that aren't there... it's a very negative spin on the world.
[10:28] FWord Utorid: i don't know that i said 'worthless' or that i was making it out to be bad
[10:28] Lalinda Lovell: i am happy even with bugs
[10:28] Prospero Linden: FWord : but you did say it's 12 years too early to do a VW, and that I disagree with
[10:29] FWord Utorid: i am attempting to present an accurate assessment of the current state of affairs.
[10:29] Prospero Linden: But you'er wrong
[10:29] Tree Kyomoon: all I know is, here in zero's office, its a lovely sunset on the ocean...but in RL its grey and raining. Thats 100% success for me.
[10:29] FWord Utorid: someone on the internet is always wrong.
[10:29] Prospero Linden: It's 12 years too early for certain things, but by defining that as "for VW", you've picked a very bad definition
[10:29] Hypatia Callisto: Handy to remember: SL wasn't first, might not be last, but most of the major ones are all still around in some form, and SL probably will be too
[10:30] tx Oh: i like sl cause people get in touch with technique because they have the desire to express their idea's
[10:30] tx Oh: they even start scripting
[10:30] FWord Utorid: i don't remember my exact phrase. What I would say is, it is 12 years too soon to do a believable VW that functions within the expectation threshold of the average person.
[10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Close analogy on the "12 years too soon" front: LL is currently using UUCP, and the world is about to discover the marvels of TCP/IP, 12 years ahead. The question is, should LL try to be in the game of defining TCP/IP, or not?
[10:30] Tree Kyomoon: cant wait for nanobots to be able to completly reconstruct a physical rendering of SL in real time...now that will be cool.
[10:30] Lalinda Lovell: prospero, for xmas i want 50 groups not 25 please
[10:30] Prospero Linden: Lalinda : if only it were so easy....
[10:30] Lalinda Lovell: i am willing to beta test it
[10:30] FWord Utorid: and by that i mean 60 fps like real life.
[10:30] Lalinda Lovell: (just do it for me)
[10:31] Hypatia Callisto: bandwidth is your enemy there FWord
[10:31] FWord Utorid: lalinda, make an alt account and a viewer that uses both logins at the same time
[10:31] tx Oh: oh, this analogy is not valid because uucp and tcp/ip resides long time beside. i also did a lot of uucp over tcp
[10:31] Hypatia Callisto: unless you download it all before
[10:31] Tree Kyomoon: I didnt realize reality had a frame rate
[10:31] FWord Utorid: hypatia, i don't think it's bandwidth, information can be compressed in ways that people haven't conceived of. If prospero isstill giving lectures he could tell you about potential for bandwidth enhancement.
[10:32] Hypatia Callisto: oh, I know :)
[10:32] Prospero Linden: Tree : well, it doesn't expliclty, but everything has finite resolution.... we can't perceive events at infinite speed. WE're limited way before this, but even if we weren't, the speed of light and the size of our brains would limit us
[10:32] Hypatia Callisto: but people are good at maximising any enhancements ;)
[10:32] Morgaine Dinova: tx Oh: there's always a transition period when there's overlap. But the question is about whether to be part of the design process for the new protocols or not.
[10:32] Lalinda Lovell: btw prospero, i wish you and all your colleagues the best of christmasses this year :)
[10:32] FWord Utorid: some of the issues are software related, and I am sure the lindens will do everything they can to maximize that aspect of the potential
[10:32] Prospero Linden: thanks :)
[10:33] Hermit Barber: Morgaine: Meshed says, only if there isn't an appropriate protocol in IP 6. Build now for IP 6 so that you arrive at the same time. For now, if it is significant, tunnel IP 6 to the few clients (mainly in the US) that cannot yet connect to it.
[10:33] FWord Utorid: but the true depth of the hardware's capability is going to keep it at a quasi cartoon level for a while
[10:33] FWord Utorid: yeah, happy christmas and stuff to everyone everywhere
[10:33] tx Oh: i still would suggest uucp for usenet
[10:33] Hypatia Callisto: I deal with compression issues a lot in geometry, its the hard problem we talk about in sculptie dev a lot.
[10:33] Hermit Barber: Meshes are coming and coming RSN.
[10:33] Tree Kyomoon: the benefits to me personally from SL have been incalculable. I have spent probably more money here than most people, but I wouldnt go back and change anything.
[10:34] camilla Yosuke: Hermit, do you have fresh news about it ?
[10:34] FWord Utorid: it has either saved my life or condemned me to suffer eternally, i can't decide.
[10:34] Prospero Linden: probably both
[10:34] Hypatia Callisto: Meshes are on the way sooner than later, I heard that from Qarl yea
[10:34] Hypatia Callisto: a few weeks ago
[10:34] camilla Yosuke: okay :) ty
[10:34] Hypatia Callisto: but no firm time frame
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: RL doesn't have frame rates, but it has Nyquist limits, which are effectively the same thing. And if you dig further down, there's the uncertaintly principle as well. So yeah, same applies in RL.
[10:34] Tree Kyomoon: well considering this was a cancelled office hour, its been the most full and exciting one in recent memory
[10:34] FWord Utorid: prospero: yeah, thanks for the eternal suffering and prolonged life
[10:35] Tree Kyomoon: perhaps cancelling them is a tactic to make them more interesting
[10:35] Prospero Linden: does not know the timescale for meshes, knows that there are people working on it
[10:35] tx Oh: meshes.. cool! would be good for sculpted architecture
[10:35] Lalinda Lovell: even when you die, your sl profile lives forever
[10:35] Prospero Linden: No promises
[10:35] Hermit Barber: Would be good for everything
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: haha, yeah, it's been a good talk, even if only about background.
[10:35] FWord Utorid: morgaine: there are limits on the perception of time and it is fairly straightforward that people all perceive it and interact with it within a given threshold. the fps notation was just for a context.
[10:35] Hermit Barber: Diarize "Learn blender."
[10:35] Tree Kyomoon: debates posting this log on the wiki...
[10:35] tx Oh: not for everything, but...
[10:35] Hermit Barber: Or wings3D
[10:35] Hypatia Callisto: The uncertainty principle averages out, I'm more interested in stochastic uncertainty :P
[10:36] Hermit Barber: Or even Maya.
[10:36] Prospero Linden: sticks his hand in a blender and calls it a learning experience
[10:36] Tree Kyomoon: blended learning even
[10:36] tx Oh: blender.
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[10:36] Hypatia Callisto: the stuff of earthquakes and weather systems
[10:36] FWord Utorid: even lightbulbs turn on and off rapidly but no one notices.
[10:36] Lalinda Lovell: i do
[10:36] Prospero Linden: Incandescent ones, not so much
[10:36] Hermit Barber: Prospero, it only feels that way the foirst few weeks.
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Prospero: we didn't bite much, did we? ;-)
[10:36] Prospero Linden: They're very hot. But, yeah, they're emitting photons in quantized packets of energy, so it's not *really* continuous on some level.... but, damn, so close.
[10:37] FWord Utorid: yeah. what he said.
[10:37] Tree Kyomoon: if anyone doesnt want me to post this on the zero office hours log...speak now or forever hold your electrons
[10:37] Lalinda Lovell: use low energu bulbs and recycle!
[10:37] tx Oh: nice blender tutorial for sculpties: [6]
[10:37] Hypatia Callisto: if there is one thing I do know, "quantum" talk is a sure measure of the level of BS in someone's ideas
[10:37] Prospero Linden: WAIT
[10:37] Prospero Linden: Before you post the log, I want to get this in
[10:37] Prospero Linden: "ZERO rocks and is really awsome and I love him!"
[10:37] Prospero Linden: OK
[10:37] Prospero Linden: you can post it now
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[10:37] FWord Utorid: give prospero a raise
[10:37] Lalinda Lovell: get this - i love M Linden and i want to have his babies
[10:37] FWord Utorid: and free beer for all avatars with the initials F U
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: And maybe Zero's a nice future CTO too .... if you don't kill him with work first!!!! ^_^
[10:38] Hypatia Callisto: nice page tx
[10:38] Hermit Barber: Making a productive Coder a CTO where he will never code again is also crazy.
[10:39] tx Oh: lol
[10:39] FWord Utorid: that's the way of the world. always promote people above their level of competency.
[10:39] Tree Kyomoon: posting...
[10:39] Prospero Linden: Hermit : like Philip :)
[10:39] Lalinda Lovell: tree dont quote me
[10:39] Lalinda Lovell: i dont need the fame
[10:40] Tree Kyomoon: too bad...yer all in for a penny in for a pound
[10:40] Hermit Barber: Typically drives the coders insane too, because thge best coders tend not to be very good communicators either.
[10:40] FWord Utorid: i ain't payin nothin
[10:40] Lalinda Lovell: aspergers ftw
[10:40] Prospero Linden: Hermit : I think that's a myth
[10:41] tx Oh: i think so too, but...
[10:41] Prospero Linden: Sure, there are good coders who aren't good communicators, but -- there was an article recently by some leading light who pointed out nowadays that software development is as much about communication as coding.
[10:41] Lalinda Lovell: social communication versus technical communication
[10:41] FWord Utorid: well, there are some people who would prefer to spend their time in a basement with a slide rule and there are some people who would prefer to be in the company of people and socialize.
[10:42] Prospero Linden: That is, if you're the lone worf who can code up a storm but can't communicate effectively and interact with other coders and others on the project you're workign on, you're not as productive as you're raw coding skills would indicate.
[10:42] Prospero Linden: And, you're probably better off not working on a big prolect.
[10:42] Prospero Linden: lone wolf, not lone worf
[10:42] FWord Utorid: typically, a person is a balanced entity and if the focus is on numerical computation and calculation their facilities for being a people person are minimized
[10:42] Hypatia Callisto: high intelligence is often associated with psychological imbalance, was told that years ago by an evolutionary psychologist, I have to agree by now. Coders just are on average highly intelligent :P
[10:42] Lalinda Lovell: torley is an aspie and he communicates well
[10:42] tx Oh: we can say in general some people are more crazy then others. but they are all nuts.
[10:43] FWord Utorid: and the lone wolf schematic, i find, is typically espoused bythose who are angling to being promoted to management.
[10:43] Hermit Barber: Prospero: Might be, but hubby has had lots of *brilliant* teams and thinks it is better to have a management track and a technical track and not force top techs onto management rails. Few people can be effective on concentration int3nsive tasks and communicate at the same time.
[10:43] Hypatia Callisto: is highly intelligent and also admits to being unbalanced :P
[10:43] Prospero Linden: Oh, sure, I agree that top techs shouldn't be on management tracks
[10:44] Lalinda Lovell: prospero, btw i will work for minimum wage :)
[10:44] FWord Utorid: it generally requires just as much time to get people to understand a concept as it does to get a computer to understand a concept, you are just communicating on a different wavelength
[10:44] Prospero Linden: Nor is it because the tech tracks, at least in projects of more than a few like-minded people, don't need to be able to communicate
[10:44] Prospero Linden: BUT -- that's not because high coding skills are correlated with the inability to communicate
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zero's a great communicator, don't need better than that. A politician who says nice things diplomatically but without sustance is not what LL needs at all. Especially not in a CTO.
[10:44] FWord Utorid: actually, that's the one thing Second Life has altered in the way I behave. I now work with people resources more than I used to.
[10:44] Lalinda Lovell: aspergers affects social communication, not technical code related stuff
[10:44] Hypatia Callisto: coders are usually quite adept with language
[10:44] Hermit Barber: Prospero: I would subscribe to that articulation.
[10:45] FWord Utorid: Though it is frequently more frustrating, it's also an eye opener.
[10:45] tx Oh: i think it's better to have techies on management because they can detect missleaded decisions
[10:45] Hypatia Callisto: and skills cross into various areas, from math, to spoken language
[10:45] Prospero Linden: Lalinda : well, I think there's sort of a false dicotonomy there. Communication is always people-related, even when about technical things.
[10:45] Hypatia Callisto: music and art
[10:45] Prospero Linden: And, it is interesting how SL can empower aspies to communicate more effectively then they might have otherwise.
[10:45] FWord Utorid: human communication is throughly ambiguous and there is a lot in the way we process information and apply 'thought' to it that leads us 'astray from the preprogrammed course'
[10:45] Prospero Linden: does think management of a tech community needs to have tech chops
[10:45] Hypatia Callisto: most of the really talented coders I know have been quite artistic in some way
[10:46] Prospero Linden: F'rinstance, I was happy to see Obama saying he was going to appoint Steven Chu to be his energy secretary, and dismayed to see lots of people saying "but he's a scientist, not a politician! We need a politician!"
[10:46] Hypatia Callisto: but remember Lord Byron: "we of the craft are all crazy"
[10:46] Prospero Linden: likesthe idea of an energy secretary being somebody who knows somethign about science.....
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Prospero++ ... Chu is good, and those comments against him were ludicrous
[10:46] FWord Utorid: management of a tech community means mastery of acronyms and the comprehension of which represent the cost effective means to deliver on the solution, as well as the mechanism to choose the effective and efficient solution.
[10:46] Hermit Barber: Prospero: text communication helps because it is cereberal, not limbic. So a lot of the evolutionary relicts are bypassed. When we put voice back into the mix, that effect is dramatically reduced.
[10:47] Latha Serevi: Prospero - I think communication can be ideas-related -- human language's unique capability is conveying complex structured ideas from mind to mind -- but that is somewhat separate from the social/emotional communication that we share with dogs. So, I disagree that all communication is people-related for brain-module-geek reasons.
[10:47] FWord Utorid: communication is the basis for all reality

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Dec 11

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