User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 29

[13:01] Squirrel Wood: OMy
[13:02] Zha Ewry: This one was ugly
[13:02] Rex Cronon: so this meeting is on shaky ground?
[13:02] Teravus Ousley: Hey Zero
[13:02] Zha Ewry: We borked the world, and are trying to fix it"
[13:02] Squirrel Wood: I was checking the blog about half an hour ago when I had problems logging in... wasn't anything there at that time
[13:02] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Zero :)
[13:02] Jarod Godel: This isn't shaky ground... THIS IS SECOND LIFE!
[13:02] Arawn Spitteler: The server might be in California, where the ground shakes
[13:02] Zero Linden: Well, I live in California - which is by definition shaky ground!
[13:02] Rex Cronon: hi zero
[13:03] Teravus Ousley: Hey Rob :D
[13:03] Arawn Spitteler: All Second Lag connects to the First
[13:03] Jarod Godel: Zero, please explain how HTTP textures can be used for a dos ATTACK?
[13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: admires teh grey pad people
[13:03] Jarod Godel: Because that just amazes me to no ends.
[13:03] Tree Kyomoon: hello zero!
[13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: Oooh colors
[13:03] Rob Linden: hi all
[13:03] Rex Cronon: hi rob
[13:03] Tree Kyomoon: hey rob!
[13:04] Arawn Spitteler: SL made First Lag TV
[13:04] Arawn Spitteler: You can see the video here: [1]
[13:04] Zero Linden: Jarod - what ever are you talking about?
[13:04] Jarod Godel: I read in last week's transcript where you said HTTP textures had a DOS attack vector.
[13:04] Arawn Spitteler: We've been getting warnings, Grid wide, and one was left to the imagination
[13:04] Tree Kyomoon: I watched SL on "the office" last night, but I think it was a repeat - still very funny
[13:04] Jarod Godel: I'm curious how that's possible.
[13:05] Zero Linden: oh -
[13:05] Zero Linden: well - if your modified viewer requests a gazillion textures from our servers -
[13:05] Zero Linden: it is going to bog things down
[13:06] Rex Cronon: do these gridwide messages have anything to do with the server code "upgrades"?
[13:06] Zero Linden: right now, the sim doles the textures tou to you -
[13:06] Zero Linden: to the viewer, so we control the rates
[13:06] Jarod Godel: you need to fix that
[13:06] Jarod Godel: there's no need for the textures to go through the sim
[13:06] Zero Linden: but once it moves to HTTP - then, well you can make as many requests as you like
[13:06] Jarod Godel: that defeats the purpose
[13:07] Jarod Godel: textures are already internal urls, are they not?
[13:07] Jarod Godel: uuid -> url
[13:07] Zero Linden: I don't think you understand me, HTTP textures doesn't go thorugh the sim
[13:07] Jarod Godel: oh
[13:07] Jarod Godel: oh
[13:07] Zero Linden: it is a DOS on the thing that those URLs point to that I'm worried about
[13:07] Jarod Godel: i'm sorry
[13:07] Rex Cronon: i guess u can use a browser to see them?
[13:07] Jarod Godel: you're worried about people using the sl grid to PERFORM a DOS attack, like the Anonymous thign
[13:07] Zero Linden: but - turns out Steve Linden's got us covered: the sim restricts the speed at which it gives out the URLs to texture assets
[13:08] Zero Linden: and the URLs are good only once
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
[13:08] Zero Linden: Rex - no, 'cause you have to get a cap URL to them, which means you need to be logged in
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: BUT, are those still UUIDs, one per texture?
[13:08] Jarod Godel: bah
[13:09] Squirrel Wood: I would assume that once you know the structure of the urls you can make them up yourself and keep tossing them at the server anyway
[13:09] Jarod Godel: that's excellent news!
[13:09] Morgaine Dinova: That applies to every addressable resource though. You can't expose resources to benefit from web technology and not allow excess

usage, which can be used as a DOS.

[13:09] Jarod Godel: so does that mean HTTP textures are 100% done?
[13:10] Jarod Godel: Thanks you, Zero! I was curious about that, but had misunderstood the problem
[13:10] Squirrel Wood: Though to prevent bad things the delivery of requested textures could be limited to IPs where a client is known to be connected...
[13:10] Zha Ewry: Easy to filter out bad ones
[13:10] Rob Linden: uh oh....lost Zero
[13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: DOS attack
[13:10] Zha Ewry: he DDOS is worst if it's valid
[13:10] Teravus Ousley: heh
[13:10] Jarod Godel: re, Zero
[13:10] Teravus Ousley: well lets hope he isn't affected by the slow logins
[13:10] Zero Linden: I'm back
[13:10] Squirrel Wood: wb Zero
[13:10] Teravus Ousley: wb
[13:11] Jarod Godel: Thanks, Zero, for explaining that.
[13:11] Zha Ewry: wb zero
[13:11] Zero Linden: welcome
[13:11] Rex Cronon: wb
[13:11] Harleen Gretzky: URL -> <texture UUID>/1
[13:11] Jarod Godel: so, does this mean http textures are ready for life testing?
[13:11] Zero Linden: In Q2 the plan is to rapidly beta then deply
[13:12] Jarod Godel: sweeet!
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: we were talking about how new protocols are going to break libsl and open sim and what to do about it
[13:12] Jarod Godel: hello, SL/S3 mashups
[13:12] Talarus Luan: Only two things you can do about it... fork or merge. :D
[13:13] Zero Linden: Well, I expect there will be a period of time when the world is a mash-up of both protocols
[13:13] Zha Ewry: Right
[13:13] Teravus Ousley: well, texture + http IMHO is 'better'
[13:13] Tao Takashi: Hi
[13:13] Zha Ewry: What we're looking for is...
[13:13] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Mashups with Croquet too ... step through a portal in Croquet into SL.
[13:13] Teravus Ousley: and I'm sure there'll be a level of compatibility with the old method for some time.
[13:14] Jarod Godel: "This sim best viewed with Linden Browser."
[13:14] Zero Linden: he he
[13:14] Morgaine Dinova: For for the techies, "This sim is optimized for use with telnet".
[13:14] Teravus Ousley: 'best viewed with Windlight'
[13:14] Jarod Godel: ah, the halcyone days on non-standard JavaScript.
[13:15] Zero Linden: thinks of protocols that were built on top of telnet so that you use a client or just telnet in....
[13:15] Jarod Godel: Was it Rob or Chris linden who said open source by April?
[13:15] Jarod Godel: Zero, IRC and half of the MU* universe.
[13:15] Morgaine Dinova: "You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike".
[13:15] Rob Linden: ?
[13:16] Tao Takashi: I always thought that the AWG is actually the way to open source
[13:16] Zero Linden: Not to mention the Internet Go Server .... to this day!
[13:16] Jarod Godel: "you see a plywood prim on the ground."
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: from Adventure or from Wizardry?
[13:16] Morgaine Dinova: <-- adventure
[13:16] Arawn Spitteler: Collosal Cave, Adventure
[13:16] Talarus Luan: I think the AWG is the way to open standards. Implementations would be whatever
[13:16] Goldie Katsu: best viewed in lynx
[13:16] Tao Takashi: well, but the AWG will change the whole architecture and I guess it will be easier to open source afterwards
[13:17] Jarod Godel: bah.
[13:17] Zero Linden: Yes, the goal of AWG is the way to open protocols
[13:17] Zha Ewry: Not the whole
[13:17] Jarod Godel: worse is better
[13:17] Zha Ewry: Move it stepwise, to more open
[13:17] Tao Takashi: LL also said that they only want to do 2 things together: allow your own hosted servers and release the code
[13:17] Tao Takashi: so the AWG seems to aim at point 1
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: has visited collasal cave many times. When well lit, its not that confusing. But I can see where the idea came from
[13:17] Jarod Godel: the first person to get the opensim software installable with one click will define the protocols
[13:17] Morgaine Dinova: Zero said open protocols, not open source.
[13:17] Tao Takashi: and thus seems to me required for step 2, too
[13:17] Jarod Godel: that's how it always worked
[13:17] Talarus Luan: points at Teravus. :P
[13:18] Tao Takashi: well, if the AWG succeeds there maybe is no big need anymore for an open source LL server
[13:18] Tao Takashi: I know that the AWG is about open standards
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: still needs to get past group IM and documentation thereof
[13:18] Zero Linden: I have recently been made acutely aware of the fact that "open" is way too overloaded an term in our field
[13:18] Jarod Godel: So, how goes breaking off the chat system, Zero?
[13:18] Morgaine Dinova: I think we should conclude that the intention is to *not* open source server-side. It would be nice if it were stated plainly

though.

[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: glanced at the prims source code...
[13:18] Jarod Godel: Any chance of a jabber<->SL gateway?
[13:18] Zha Ewry: Open Sim will do that, whether Linden Does, or not
[13:18] Teravus Ousley: well, It's doubtful that Opensim will be a one click install app. It tends to be a bit filled with 'options'
[13:19] Tao Takashi: not only opensim hopefully ;-)
[13:19] Jarod Godel: chuckles politely
[13:19] Tao Takashi: but I guess for the region part it will be opensim for now
[13:19] Rob Linden: first things first: we need to lock down on some protocols here
[13:19] Jarod Godel: Like what, Rob?
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: jumps up and down
[13:20] Zha Ewry: We need to get the Region/Sim/bondary well defined
[13:20] Tao Takashi: sure.
[13:20] Jarod Godel: what are you guys locking down these days?
[13:20] Talarus Luan: feels the floor shake...
[13:20] Zha Ewry: and we need to actually dcoument them
[13:20] Tao Takashi: so what's the next step in the AWG process? :)
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: me winning a lottery so I can keep doing what I'm doing without pay
[13:20] Morgaine Dinova: Logout-client-on-TP-timeout is well and trully locked down. Never fails.
[13:20] Tao Takashi: that was my plan ;-)
[13:21] Talarus Luan: Yep. *nods to Morgaine*
[13:21] Rob Linden: a good short term goal is some sort of interop demo. Zero: where's the first likely area for that?
[13:21] Zero Linden: Well, Idea #1 in my head is to lock Which LInden and I in a room for three days and write the first 10 protocols and then put them on the

wiki

[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: its not reliable on my client. Sometimes I get TPed as expected. Whats up with that?
[13:21] Jarod Godel: /m claps
[13:22] Zha Ewry: Which is a good choice
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: you could always hire me to do it, Zero...
[13:22] Zha Ewry: He's done really good work
[13:22] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles at Sai
[13:22] Zero Linden: I think the first interop demo I'd like to see is LL/SL avatars TP'ing on to land run outside LL
[13:22] Zha Ewry: nods and smiles
[13:22] Teravus Ousley: listens
[13:22] Tree Kyomoon: you mean outside of the viewer and on to the desktop?
[13:22] Jarod Godel: so, like, logging out and then logging in elsewhere?
[13:23] Zha Ewry: No
[13:23] Zha Ewry: Tp
[13:23] Zha Ewry: Actually hand off properly
[13:23] Zero Linden: what Zha said
[13:23] Zha Ewry: SL agent domain, and region domain does a request to OpenSim
[13:23] Zero Linden: and for the purposes of first version, let's just say that all clothes and attachements have to be full-perms
[13:23] Teravus Ousley: .. yeah. so a region hosted outside of LL would accept connections..
[13:23] Zha Ewry: "Here is an authenticated Avatar"
[13:23] Jarod Godel: Let me guess.
[13:23] Arawn Spitteler: thinks a TP to the Beta Grid would be a start
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: version zero, let them wear Ruth
[13:23] Zero Linden: Arwan
[13:24] Jarod Godel: Letting the client hold state while you jumped to another network never game up, did it?
[13:24] Rob Linden: Zero: if you and Which were to do as you suggested, would the protocol docs all be brand new protocols that haven't been implemented?
[13:24] Morgaine Dinova: Zero means a proper TP, as it should be. Ie. either a direct TP if you're already authenticated with the 2nd grid, or else first

fire up the right login system and THEN do the TP.

[13:24] Teravus Ousley: It's not so hard in OpenSim's current situation. However, inventory and other things are different
[13:24] Zero Linden: the beta grid, and the internal dev. grids are actually not as separated from the main grid as a region domain would be
[13:24] Zha Ewry: For the very first case, a non-gridded, standalong OpenSim would probably be enough
[13:24] Rob Linden: would punt on the inventory issues in the first iteration
[13:24] Zero Linden: Morgain - in my view, there wouldn't be a need to authenticate against the 2nd grid
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: does TP work from one OpenSim sim to thenext?
[13:24] Zero Linden: which is sort of why I don't like calling it a 2nd grid
[13:25] Zha Ewry: Just accept the new connectoins cleanrly
[13:25] Zha Ewry: In gridded mode.. sort of
[13:25] Teravus Ousley: basically an opensim region expects to be able to register with a gridserver (the space server perhaps)
[13:25] Zero Linden: I think if we make it so that each user has to have an account with each region domain, we've not done the job correctly
[13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: ouch, that makes grids stateful for each others' details
[13:25] Rex Cronon: gave you 01/29/08 partial zero transcript.
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: agent domain server?
[13:25] Zha Ewry: In the short term, I'd look at a plugable replacement for the gridserver, Teravus
[13:25] Zha Ewry: (Which, deperately needs to go from xmlrpc to REST, anyway)
[13:25] Teravus Ousley: .. and it accepts XML rpc connections with things like, the avatar's circuit code.. ..
[13:26] Zha Ewry: But.. I'd start with a non-gridded openSIM
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Then.. sstep along incrementally
[13:26] Zero Linden: Morgain- I'm not sure I understand what you think would be stateful?
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: can the "grid" be coerced down to a single sim?
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: once-size fits all protocol
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Well
[13:26] Zha Ewry: The OpenSim world runs standalone
[13:26] Zha Ewry: non-greidded sims just fine
[13:26] Teravus Ousley: well, essentially for opensim to understand and deal with regions outside of the instance, it must know that it's in the situation
[13:26] Zha Ewry: (Up to 4 regions, really)
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: well if you let the client worry about auth for each grid then the grids don't need to know about each others' auth

requirements. It would reduce dependencies

[13:27] Zha Ewry: Or, it needs a handler, to catch the TP request
[13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: but wil the TP work into the OS sim be applicable to the grid version?
[13:27] Zha Ewry: In time, yes, Saij
[13:27] Jarod Godel: Or use OpenID or cookies
[13:27] Teravus Ousley: so, my belief is that a grid plugin will need to be created to work with the linden infrestructure
[13:27] Zha Ewry: Several ways to do it
[13:27] Zha Ewry: (That's my guess, beyond the very tribvial case Teravus)
[13:27] Teravus Ousley: .. that plugin will take some documentation to be able to create
[13:28] Zero Linden: Ah, Morgaine - I think this is an important construction:
[13:28] Jarod Godel: Zero, how big is the XML package that one sim sends to the next when you cross borders?
[13:28] Zha Ewry: But. in the trivial case, you just need to catch the TP request, and fake it
[13:28] Zero Linden: From the region's point of view, it is deciding to let an agent in, the agent being represented by the agent domain
[13:28] Zero Linden: From the region's point of view, there isn't even a client!
[13:29] Zero Linden: The client (viewer) has authenticated to the agent domain to prove that this remote internet connection has the right to control the agent
[13:29] Teravus Ousley: I'm not sure it's *that* simple, Zha, currently we're using .Net remoting to get agent domain properties from region to region.
[13:29] Zero Linden: from then on, it is the agent (under control of the viewer) that is requesting the TP
[13:31] Zero Linden: Now, if the region (or domain or regions (trying not to use the term "grid" (or excessive parenthesis))) wants to have auth. policies
[13:31] Teravus Ousley: My guess, is LLSims communicate over UDP
[13:31] Zero Linden: for particular agnets, then it needs to
[13:31] Zero Linden: 1) know that the agent domain that claims to represent an agent does in fact do so
[13:31] Zero Linden: 2) check it's own access lists for whcih agents are allowed
[13:31] Zero Linden: so long as agents have a globally unique ID (easy enough)
[13:32] Zero Linden: and we have a way to know which agent domain handles which agent
[13:32] Zha Ewry: /GAH
[13:32] Zha Ewry: RL tp failure
[13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: hate those
[13:32] Zha Ewry: You're assuiming the flow is
[13:32] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I understand your model, but I don't see what it gains you for interop. I do however see some overheads and restrictions it

imposes on you. And it presupposes a rather lot about how different worlds will work.

[13:32] Zha Ewry: client->agent domain->region to get he cap seed?
[13:32] Zero Linden: then we can do this without each user having to have an account on each region domain
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: the fly dna is annoying to get rid of
[13:33] Jarod Godel: so you want people to be able to put various domain side-by-side, requiring a agents to be constantly authenticating with multiple domain

login systems?

[13:33] Zha Ewry: OpenId, over time, fixes the constantly re-authenticating
[13:34] Zha Ewry: But
[13:34] Morgaine Dinova: Interop goes beyond mere region domains that are exactly like SL. There's going to be a plethora of virtual worlds, most of them

entirely different!

[13:34] Zero Linden: It is basically baking single-sign-in and global identity into the system at the start - and I think that it doesn't preclude any access

policy a domain woudl want ot make

[13:34] Zha Ewry: you have a choice, right?
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Either the regions share authentication, or they
[13:34] Zha Ewry: have to re-do it a lot
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Not a lot of middle ground
[13:34] Tao Takashi: Morgaine: I think LL's goal for now is not other virtual worlds but SL
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Well, short term, yes
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Longer term.. if you get real open grids
[13:35] Zha Ewry: the rest, is in some sense, a lot easier
[13:35] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, I sure hope we can look further ahead than that. Otherwise, it's redesign everything yet again, in just a few years' time.
[13:35] Jarod Godel: this design sounds like it's targeting people who want to run one avatar at a time
[13:35] Tao Takashi: anyway, unfortunately I have to go.. cya later!
[13:35] Zero Linden: What I don't want is for TP to another grid (intentional use this time) to be equivalent to logout-login which the TP bar slides along
[13:35] Teravus Ousley: take care Tao
[13:36] Morgaine Dinova: See you Tao
[13:36] Zha Ewry: No
[13:36] Rex Cronon: bye tao
[13:36] Zha Ewry: Hiding that under the covers,
[13:36] Zero Linden: bye Tao
[13:36] Zha Ewry: we might as well, just suspect one client, and start another
[13:36] Zha Ewry: *suspend
[13:36] Zero Linden: because at that point we havne't really gained the continuity of agent as we traverse the virtual world
[13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: logging in doesn't take all that time suggested by your login sider. That's an artifact of the way you do things. Auth can

be instantaneous.

[13:37] Zha Ewry: Right.. and IMs, and such would not likely follow in that
[13:37] Jarod Godel: this sounds like browsing before the invention of the tab
[13:37] Zha Ewry: Its not a question of time. It's a question of trust domain, I htink
[13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: a ruthed avatar should login quite fast I think
[13:37] Zha Ewry: Sigh
[13:38] Teravus Ousley: well, we're talking about interop here for starters
[13:38] Zha Ewry: I think the major point, tho, is that if you're looking to allow two grids to connect
[13:38] Morgaine Dinova: Login time == time to load assets you currently lack (roughly). If you have all the assets already from last time, it should be

almost* instantaneous.
[13:38] Zha Ewry: you're not saying "well, they have the same tech, so I can log into both of them with the sme client"
[13:38] Talarus Luan: yes, probably should stick to homogeneous grids and protocols with what exists now, and in the near future.
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: from the sound of it, even getting theservers to acknowledge theNAME of hte avatr is a big hurdle
[13:38] Teravus Ousley: so, that, at least in my mind, is something of the like, of OpenSim managing a space on the grid, somewhere
[13:38] Zha Ewry: We can do that today with opengrid
[13:39] Zha Ewry: What we're saying is "Share IM space, Share Names, Share, assets"
[13:39] Zha Ewry: At tthat point, you need to have some shared trust
[13:39] Zero Linden: Let's look at it from the other side
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: for now,assume total trust etween the two because that is the easiest
[13:40] Arawn Spitteler: To what extent is the identity of an agent to be an asset requiring Trust?
[13:40] Zero Linden: If LL's Agent Domain holds my friends list, my inventory, my profile, y grops, etc....
[13:40] Zha Ewry: That's the starting point
[13:40] Morgaine Dinova: So I still think that on an inter-grid TP, SL should be sending the client the info needed for the client to request a TP to the

2nd grid.

[13:40] Zha Ewry: Why?
[13:40] Morgaine Dinova: It's orthogonal to single-id
[13:40] Zha Ewry: I don't re-log on to each S sim
[13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: to reduce c oupling
[13:40] Zero Linden: and when I go on to land hosted by SomeOtherCompany.... it uses my LL' agent domain info
[13:40] Zha Ewry: *SL sim
[13:40] Zero Linden: what exactly is the sim on SOC land authenticating?
[13:40] Jarod Godel: I love these meetings with AWG. It's like falling into some alternate history novel where CERN tried to invent openID before HTTP.
[13:40] Teravus Ousley: All that stuff gets told to your client when you log-in
[13:40] Zha Ewry: I don't think it does
[13:41] Zha Ewry: I don't see the coupling going down, much at all
[13:41] Teravus Ousley: .. it's part of the initial XMLRPC response
[13:41] Teravus Ousley: Your friendslist, your inventory folders.. etc.
[13:41] Zero Linden: Well- Look -HTTP is essentially about anonymous access...because it is a many to one read-only system
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Jarod, and if they were trying to work with virutal worlds the way we were, Tim BL would have been wearing a furry outfit to work
[13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: when I suggested a similar coupling between agent domain and region, you rejected the idea because "too much coupling". Now

you're proposing that it's OK to couple grids that way? :-)

[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Ter, but we need to get away from that a bit.
[13:42] Jarod Godel: Oh, wait...that's not alternate history. That happened: Plato, AOL, Compuserve, Delphi.
[13:42] Zero Linden: whereas the reason virtual works are qualitatively different is that it has identity and collaboration of shared expereince a
[13:43] Zha Ewry: Different issues, Morgaine
[13:43] Zha Ewry: You want edto couple function that belongs in the region domain to the agent domain
[13:43] Zha Ewry: This is pulling function from the agent domain into the client
[13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: agreed, different. But the couplingis still unnecessary for inter-grip TP, so I don't see why add it.
[13:43] Zha Ewry: I dont' see that it is
[13:43] Zha Ewry: It isn't a TP if its a logout/logon
[13:43] Zero Linden: If you make me have a separate identity on each "grid" and simply enable quick logout/login as I TP around, I don't think we've really

opened the grid at all - just built a nicer viewer

[13:43] Jarod Godel: Zero, HTTP and hypertext were invented to facilitate collaboration.
[13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: indeed, but that's the web model, after all
[13:44] Zha Ewry: http, you're never visible to the other people on the web
[13:44] Zero Linden: Jarod - yes, but they weren't themselves meant to be collaborative - and they were not when used to publish physics papers
[13:44] Zha Ewry: Identity, in the VW paradism is very different
[13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: you don't get web sites talking to each other, it's mediated through the browser
[13:44] Zha Ewry: That's why you need the single ID, morgaine
[13:45] Zero Linden: Morgain - and that is partially why I have 300 accounts on as many web sites
[13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: single ID is an orthogonal discussion, it helps in both cases
[13:45] Zero Linden: I don't care as much becuase there is nothing to share between those web sites
[13:45] Zha Ewry: Its not
[13:45] Zha Ewry: Not single login credential
[13:45] Zha Ewry: single acutal ID
[13:45] Zero Linden: here - I want to bring along my firends,my groups, my inventory, my identity
[13:45] Zha Ewry: Depeer
[13:45] Zha Ewry: err. Deeper
[13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: the issue of single ID or not is orthogonal. You can have single ID and not couple the grids together like that.
[13:46] Goldie Katsu: The single ID and mapping across sites is the big issue in Social media, no need to create the same problem in virtual worlds.
[13:46] Jarod Godel: Zero, me too, that's why I want to be able to host my own inventory externally.
[13:46] Zero Linden: This is why there is an agent domain, and why I think this new model is a fundamental new protcol paradigm: client-agent-server
[13:46] Jarod Godel: That's why I keep pushing HTTP textures, because that's the first step into carting your stuff to any world
[13:46] Zha Ewry: Not unless the grids share the friends list, the
[13:46] Zha Ewry: groups
[13:46] Zha Ewry: the permisoins
[13:47] Zha Ewry: at which point
[13:47] Zha Ewry: Oh. Wait. Why did I log off and log back on again to see the same data?
[13:47] Zero Linden: Morgain- I don't see it as much of a coupling - by saying users' auth into agent domains, and then agent domains auth into region domains
[13:47] Jarod Godel: because sl was working for a change?
[13:48] Jarod Godel: sighs and afk's
[13:48] Zero Linden: we get somethign more powerful at no more code or protocol than, users' auth into agent domains, and then user's auth into region domains
[13:49] Zha Ewry: if I'm bringing Zha.. into the next region
[13:49] Zha Ewry: I'm planning on looking like me
[13:49] Zha Ewry: having the same friends
[13:49] Zha Ewry: Having the same textures on my clothes
[13:49] Zha Ewry: That's a non-shallow couplling
[13:49] Zha Ewry: Now.. We want to minizmie the details of how the components couple to
[13:49] Zha Ewry: manage that, but the trust coupling, is pretty deep
[13:49] Talarus Luan: Yep, you either bring it with you, or you bring some validated reference with you.
[13:49] Zha Ewry: (And when we don't share deep trust, i want some welld efined way of
[13:50] Zha Ewry: managing that)
[13:50] Talarus Luan: Sounds a bit like you're wanting to reinvent Kerberos (the concept) again.
[13:50] Zha Ewry: If I'm goign to show up as ruth, or even as "Zha1 Ewer" because that's as close as I can get on the next grid, I want to know about it
[13:50] Zha Ewry: Well, if I'm going to access my resources, deeply, I need pretty deep security model
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: for now, we should be happy with a Ruth Named Zha
[13:51] Arawn Spitteler: I would say Zha Ewer.LL
[13:51] Zero Linden: sorry - AFK - emergency phone call
[13:51] Zha Ewry: Heh
[13:51] Talarus Luan: That's never a good sign.
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: it was the president
[13:51] Zha Ewry: If it's fully qualified, hopefully, it can be Zha.Ewry.SL
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: nasa has stolen all the tang
[13:52] Morgaine Dinova: The Ruth problem is easy to fix: Just give everyone a middle name of "Ruth", and then nobody can complain ;-)
[13:52] Talarus Luan: Unless the cat gacked up a hairball on the victorian sofa. :P
[13:52] Rex Cronon: hopefully is not a gridwide emergency
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Zero, Grasmere is the only place up. Do not logoff!
[13:52] Leffard Lassard: Hmm. Wha about addressing ? To address different people in perhaps one friends list...
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Reality, and our uptime numbers are being held in place by a thread
[13:53] Rex Cronon: it seems on the blog lots of people are complaining that they can't login
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Seems the update, was borked
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Which. is way better on a rolling restart, than, on a grid wide down, I suppose. I can't wait until hetgrid
[13:54] Tara5 Oh: which update?
[13:54] Zha Ewry: lets them roll on 10%
[13:54] Zha Ewry: They pushed out new code to the sims last night, to be pickedup by a rolling restart
[13:55] Morgaine Dinova: While we're waiting .... Zha, I was rereading your bit about needing a good trust model for interop, but I don't see that as

possible. Even in Zero's basic "Everything looks like SL" scenario, the 3rd party regions cannot be trusted. It's "best effort", at best.

[13:55] Zha Ewry: That depends a bit, on how you let those regoins into your grid
[13:55] Zha Ewry: If you require a legal agreement, and a cert, exchange
[13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Hahahaha
[13:56] Zha Ewry: then, it's not too bad
[13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Very funny
[13:56] Talarus Luan: Gah. haven't they fixed the load balancer for the website YET? "503 Service is Unavailable".. :-/
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Trust, in the end, is
[13:56] Zha Ewry: a combo of
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Legal agreements, and tech to allow you to have some reason to believe the legal agreement is in place
[13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: So, I guess you're thinking about corporate domains only.
[13:56] Zha Ewry: No
[13:56] Zha Ewry: I'm perfectly happy to sign a TOS, and get a lightweight cert for my garage
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Well. No. I don't have a garage
[13:57] Zha Ewry: But.. for my private box
[13:57] Rex Cronon: u have to signt papers to signin? did cia open a sim here?
[13:57] Talarus Luan: Yeah, if you are going to trust a third party, you will need some serious lawyering and contracts to directly interact with the main SL

grid.

[13:57] Zero Linden: sorry all - personal phone call I couldn't skip taking
[13:57] Morgaine Dinova: "Papers please"
[13:57] Zha Ewry: shrugs
[13:57] Zha Ewry: I can decide whether or not to go to wild-west, sims
[13:57] Zha Ewry: I may well use an ALT
[13:57] Rob Linden: needs to go
[13:57] Tara5 Oh: bfn everybody I have school pick to do!Sounds like I may not get back either? Anyway you might be interested in this when you have a moment it

is long but has a segment on AWG [2]

[13:57] Rob Linden: bye all
[13:58] Teravus Ousley: take care Rob
[13:58] Zero Linden: okay all - I've got to run too....
[13:58] Zha Ewry: But. I'd like to be able to jhave a trust agreement in place for lots of places I want to go live in
[13:58] Zero Linden: sorry I had to duck out the last ten min.....
[13:58] Talarus Luan: Well, you can for your own avatar, yes, but sims who want to host Linden content in some way will require a bit more than spit and a

handshake.

[13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Grady Booch is into archeology now? :-)
[13:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Cheerio!
[13:58] Teravus Ousley: alas, meeting cut short.. but we covered a lot of ground
[13:58] Rex Cronon: bye rob, zero
[13:58] Zero Linden: later

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 29

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