User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 09

[8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Ah well, politicians, all slimy, even the best intentioned ones, which soon turn around and bite you.
[8:31] Tree Kyomoon: no question. The job kind of forces you to be slimy. Everyone cannot possibly have their way, and while each person has a legit argument from their perspective, they almost always conflict and politicians constantly have to compromise. It comes across as lying.
[8:31] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[8:31] Tree Kyomoon: my leige
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: (rex = king)
[8:32] Rex Cronon: :)
[8:32] Rex Cronon: actually is emperor:)
[8:32] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. Except that it doesn't "come across" as lying, it actually is. Deceit is a mandatory requirement in this political system, without it you fail.
[8:32] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex!
[8:32] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: I think deceit is mandatory in life unfortunately. You cant raise kids without it
[8:33] Morgaine Dinova: You can, though you would be frowned at.
[8:33] Tree Kyomoon: its so sunny here. SO much nicer than RL where its foggy and raining and cold.
[8:34] Morgaine Dinova: HAH! I like that. VWs should be advertised on the basis of "It's not raining here folks, join us!" :-)
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: exactly!
[8:34] Morgaine Dinova: Zero's late
[8:34] Cadis Blackadder: LOL
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: anyone here every tried out google's "lively"
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: ?
[8:35] Cadis Blackadder: VW's have their own inclement weather issues
[8:35] Rex Cronon: i have
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: what did you think of it?
[8:35] Morgaine Dinova: Nope, what kind of place is Lively atm?
[8:35] Rex Cronon: it doesn't want to work for me
[8:35] Cadis Blackadder: they come in the form of packet loss
[8:35] Rex Cronon: it never loads completly
[8:35] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear. Alpha?
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: its supposed to be an SL by google but it seems theres no ability to create your own avvie or lands
[8:36] Cadis Blackadder: oh man don't call that thing a VW
[8:36] Cadis Blackadder: its just chat
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: Hi JayR!
[8:36] Rex Cronon: and things look like in a cartoon
[8:36] Cadis Blackadder: zactly
[8:36] Cadis Blackadder: cartoon chat
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: yeah thats what I thought...like sony home or imvu or whatever
[8:37] Cadis Blackadder: it must be a placeholder for ideas they are having
[8:37] Tree Kyomoon: funny that something as well funded as google would put out such a piece of crapp
[8:37] Cadis Blackadder: its not even close
[8:37] Kevin Paisley: *meow*
[8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: its a throwaway to see if anyone wanted it
[8:37] Cadis Blackadder: maybes
[8:38] Cadis Blackadder: yey
[8:38] Rex Cronon: if at least would work
[8:38] Lillie Yifu: Every company needs to put out at least one unusable product, it tells them how many true believers they have.
[8:38] Cadis Blackadder: (zero sighting)
[8:38] Cadis Blackadder: smiles
[8:38] Lillie Yifu: If you area true believer, you will believe it does work.
[8:39] Cadis Blackadder: heh
[8:39] Kevin Paisley: rofl at this barrel
[8:39] Kevin Paisley: never noticed what it said
[8:39] Zero Linden: Uh oh - Lillie has caught on to our strategy...
[8:40] Rex Cronon: we were talkinga about lively
[8:40] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, we have a Zero :-) 'Morning
[8:40] Cadis Blackadder: actually we were discussing Google 's
[8:40] Rex Cronon: hello zero
[8:40] Zero Linden: Yes - here is a Zero!
[8:40] Zero Linden: welcome all to my office hours
[8:40] Cadis Blackadder: hi zero
[8:40] Wrapp Seiling: smiles
[8:41] Morgaine Dinova: That's not a bad topic. What's the general perspective on non-OGP worlds, like Lively. Are we going to 100% ignore them?
[8:41] Morgaine Dinova: Or lesser interop?
[8:41] Zero Linden: So - fair warning - there will be a two week break from office hours starting next week
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: oh nos
[8:41] Kevin Paisley: :(
[8:41] Zero Linden: I have three (!) full day meetings to attend in two weeks
[8:41] pitagoras Barak: hola
[8:41] FWord Utorid: more time to plan for the next ones
[8:41] Zero Linden: and they fall on tuesdays and thursdays
[8:41] Zero Linden: and I need prep time
[8:41] Wrapp Seiling: i can catch up on my reading ...
[8:42] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:42] Zero Linden: SO.......
[8:42] Zero Linden: On that note
[8:42] pitagoras Barak: alguna habla espaol
[8:42] Zero Linden: welcome to my office hours,
[8:42] pitagoras Barak: alguno habla espaol
[8:42] Lillie Yifu: So let's not waste this chance to make Zero's life miserable, because we are goingto have competition soon.
[8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: yo hablo un poco
[8:42] Zero Linden: w're here to talk about the architecture of SL, present and future -- mostly future
[8:42] Zero Linden: speak freely and openly
[8:42] Lillie Yifu: hola pitagoras
[8:43] Zero Linden: Agenda topics?
[8:43] Morgaine Dinova: The more the better, since it's early days. and new ideas are very welcome.
[8:43] pitagoras Barak: hola
[8:43] Tree Kyomoon: I had one from last time
[8:43] pitagoras Barak: por que se rreunene aca
[8:43] FWord Utorid: the future of virtual worlds is that they will work the way Bob says
[8:43] pitagoras Barak: ?
[8:43] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm better coordination of ui design to support many of the architectural changes that hav been discussed.
[8:44] Sumax Mighty: Greetings all.
[8:44] Lillie Yifu: That at my gneral bump to have Lindens do a confessional on what they are doing so we can do some documentation rough drafts of where things are.
[8:44] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:44] FWord Utorid: the lindens should pay people more and give free lunches to everyone.
[8:45] pitagoras Barak: hola una pregunta cual es el fin de este juego ?
[8:45] pitagoras Barak: ?
[8:45] FWord Utorid: hola pitagoras, no habla espanol
[8:45] Tree Kyomoon: my agenda item was forced object load order
[8:45] pitagoras Barak: hola
[8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone speak better than me?
[8:45] FWord Utorid: go, sai, splain
[8:46] Tree Kyomoon: so we as builders can determine which object loads first either in a group or sim
[8:46] FWord Utorid: someone don the translator hud
[8:46] Lillie Yifu: Como podemos ayudarle pitagoras?
[8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: por favor devajo su vos
[8:46] Lillie Yifu: Esta es una parte
[8:46] Zero Linden: Uhm... kay
[8:46] Lillie Yifu: hmmm
[8:46] Zero Linden: so - so far, three is Tree's --- what was it
[8:47] Lillie Yifu: avanzada de la juego
[8:47] Zero Linden: ?
[8:47] Lillie Yifu: usted debe ir a un
[8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Zero, don't know if it's an agenda item or just needs a 1-liner, but (i) is IM intended to go over OGP eventually?, and (ii) if NOT, then will the elements referenced in OGP be available to use in the external IM stream, so that we can carry references to OGP objects in chat?
[8:47] Lillie Yifu: lugar para los neuvos.
[8:47] FWord Utorid: pitagoras, el wordos not for you-os
[8:47] pitagoras Barak: mmmm
[8:47] Kevin Paisley: Disfruto a menudo de cpula sexual con las ovejas y las cabras.
[8:47] pitagoras Barak: y donde esta ese lugar ?
[8:47] Zero Linden: Agenda Item 1) Tree's from last time (which I admit I forgot)
[8:47] Lillie Yifu: Kevin!
[8:47] Zero Linden: Agenda Item 2) IM path and protocols
[8:47] pitagoras Barak: que hacen aac ustedes
[8:47] pitagoras Barak: ?
[8:48] Kevin Paisley: dunno if my translator is working :P
[8:48] Zero Linden: tick
[8:48] Zero Linden: tcik
[8:48] FWord Utorid: esta ese porn convention del soul miago puento New Kids On The Block
[8:48] Zero Linden: tcik
[8:48] Zero Linden: bing!
[8:48] Zero Linden: Take it away, Tree:
[8:48] Saijanai Kuhn: por favor bajastea su vos
[8:48] Saijanai Kuhn: voz*
[8:48] Rex Cronon: lol. fword
[8:48] Morgaine Dinova: Pitagoras, esto es un meeting teqnico, por favor no nos hables mas en Espanol.
[8:48] formentera Voom: Hola, hello salut!
[8:48] formentera's translator: Hello, hello salvation!
[8:49] Lillie Yifu: Well now we know who FWord has the hots for.
[8:49] Tree Kyomoon: ok I was wondering if it would be possible for us to add a load order so we could make, say a big preloader sphere that would hide everyting entirely from view, then once everything was loaded we could remove the sphere to reveal the object, build or whatever
[8:49] pitagoras Barak: bueno disculpen ni queria molestar
[8:49] Tree Kyomoon: or at least have objects build in a controlled way
[8:49] Tree Kyomoon: as they loaded
[8:50] pitagoras Barak: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[8:50] Morgaine Dinova: Sientate se comprendes el Ingles, pero si no, es mejor que departes.
[8:50] Zero Linden: Well, of course, we can't enforce what order a given viewer implemetnation chooses to render geometry
[8:50] pitagoras Barak: surun surungani sarsuentus aorfagus?
[8:50] Zero Linden: we can, at best, only provide intention
[8:50] Zero Linden: and - deliver the data in the order of intention
[8:50] Tree Kyomoon: which some viewers could ignore sure
[8:50] Tree Kyomoon: but the SL viewer should respect
[8:50] Tree Kyomoon: I mean the Linden viewer
[8:51] pitagoras Barak: adam te dageram algar lgas tinha ?
[8:51] Davina Glitter: and if there was a large globe around things before they got rendered then the world will be comprised of balls.
[8:51] pitagoras Barak: posos falar em portugues eu nou sei falar ingleish
[8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: wow muted his avatar too. just a grey sillouet
[8:51] Tree Kyomoon: well whatever...a wall...stuff building in a predetermined order etc . that was just one idea
[8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: however its spelled
[8:52] Zero Linden: Since the region is in control of what it sends -- there is nothing stopping a region from
[8:52] Tree Kyomoon: its akin to a preloading routine in java or flash. RIght now SL is like HTML where the images and text just come in whatever order
[8:52] Zero Linden: providing an interfact to content builders to declare the "load order" and then ship that geometry in that order
[8:52] Zero Linden: BUT
[8:52] Zero Linden: I suspect that few regions would want to do that
[8:53] Zero Linden: since they prefer to agressively order and cull geometry that has to be sent
[8:53] pitagoras Barak: bueno que tengan un buen dia para los que quieran y sean curiosas de saber cosas nuevas miren www.grsasis.com
[8:53] Davina Glitter: It would be neat to see a scripted object that revealed itself one layer at a time.
[8:53] FWord Utorid: I like pants.
[8:53] Lillie Yifu: Someone needs to send pitagoras to ban land
[8:53] Tree Kyomoon: well Im thinking for more thematic, story or game based sims, not just large buildings or shopping centers
[8:53] Rex Cronon: i think it matters more if the viewer decides to respect eh order
[8:53] Zero Linden: I suspect doing the work to resolve the eventual conflicts between multiple objects with priority lists would be ... well, hard to legislate and make equitble
[8:53] Morgaine Dinova: It would be very heavyweight to send down a loading order list, and very hard to control. But perhaps something simple like a "Render only when enclosed objects are rendered" property might achieve what you want.
[8:54] pitagoras Barak: surun surungani sarsuentus orfagus
[8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: pitagoras, este es una dita de programadores
[8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: un cita
[8:54] pitagoras Barak: que es dita?
[8:54] pitagoras Barak: a
[8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: dita es nada
[8:54] Lillie Yifu: pitagoras is here for lulz.
[8:54] Morgaine Dinova: Meeting
[8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: es un cita
[8:54] Lillie Yifu: I suggest someone ban him.
[8:54] FWord Utorid: asynchronous transfer of scripts is not fundamentally difficult to do, it just would require the proper callback functionality to detect the changes in the readystate
[8:55] Morgaine Dinova: I asked him to leave already, but I think he's trolling on purpose.
[8:55] Tree Kyomoon: Well this functionality in addition to some others would be crucial to making stuff like Half Life, Bioshock or Portal inside SL
[8:55] Zero Linden: What I'd like to see is perhaps a way that we could factor out this kind of additional information in a way that wasn't required - because I fear that without
[8:55] Zero Linden: experience in what sort of load instructions work for content creator, region and viewer, I fear that we would have no idea whether any system we incorporate would be correct
[8:56] pitagoras Barak: como me boy a un mundo para nuevos
[8:56] FWord Utorid: the more people complain about it the more likely it is to be right
[8:56] Lillie Yifu: right now linked objects have link numbers
[8:56] Lillie Yifu: it would be possible to have "render order" numbers on objects
[8:56] pitagoras Barak: me dan un em pujon para no molestar aca por favor
[8:56] Lillie Yifu: which the viewer might or migh tnot respect
[8:56] Lillie Yifu: but then somoene building a special purpose game
[8:56] Lillie Yifu: could have a modified viewer which respects the order numbers
[8:57] Tao Takashi: maybe it can be at least some sort of priority field to have a rough order
[8:57] Lillie Yifu: they could be stored in say, the description field.
[8:57] Tree Kyomoon: thats kind of what Im thinking Lillie
[8:57] Zero Linden: if the object format were LLSD, then, of course, we could have viewerws and regions experiment with additions easily and interoperably
[8:57] Imaze Rhiano: sorry - rezzing slowly
[8:57] FWord Utorid: it sounds like someone is proposing a fancy pants mechanism for doing something that isn't needed.
[8:57] Zero Linden: until some form of concensus happens
[8:57] Lillie Yifu: then the client could read that field and beahve in client defined ways.
[8:57] Tree Kyomoon: if you were going to drop 10,000,000 to develop a game in world, you would probably have no problem building a custom viewer
[8:57] Zero Linden: however, while the asset system format of objects is LLSD
[8:57] pitagoras Barak: chao fword chao lillie
[8:57] Tao Takashi: is it the client or the region which has to know about this field?
[8:57] Zero Linden: the transmission format to the viewer is not - it is highly compressed binary
[8:57] Morgaine Dinova: Pitagoras says he'll leave if we can give him a TP link to a Spanish place
[8:57] FWord Utorid: if your scripts are dependent on an architecture that isn't present one could suggest that you learn to script within the constraints
[8:58] FWord Utorid: later pitagoras, i hope the cult welcomes you
[8:58] Tao Takashi: I guess the region is sending the objects to the viewer?
[8:58] Lillie Yifu: beijos pitagoras
[8:58] Cadis Blackadder: me stifles a snicker
[8:58] Zero Linden: Tao- I doubt that regions are going to be willing to start arbitrary additional fields with each object -- which would enable this to be a viewer side only thing
[8:58] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm
[8:58] Lillie Yifu: thisis like the pass through thinkg with lsl
[8:58] Zero Linden: further, it certainly clouds interoperability
[8:58] Lillie Yifu: is there a way to have some kind of generic extensibility
[8:58] Tao Takashi: so how would this work? I mean the region in the end knows what's on the sim
[8:59] Tao Takashi: I don't know how it works today actually
[8:59] Lillie Yifu: that viewers could interpret in custom ays
[8:59] Lillie Yifu: but which could also be safely ignored
[8:59] Tao Takashi: does the viewer get a list of objects in the surrounding to choose from and then requests those?
[8:59] Lillie Yifu: sying "if you don't know what this means, ignore it."
[8:59] FWord Utorid: who wants this extra functionality and why are we catering to that one person?
[8:59] Tree Kyomoon: well Im just trying to think of ways in general we can encourage the big game developers to spend time and $$ on content in SL
[8:59] FWord Utorid: are they going to pay us extra?
[8:59] Zero Linden: Lille - it does bring up that while almost everything else in OGP is imagined to be transmitted in LLSD, and hence extensible both in ad hoc and standard ways,
[8:59] Lillie Yifu: I certainly want the ability to put meta data on objects
[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: 3rd party worlds aren't going to use SL's internal object representation. Why wouldn't they have additional fields and properties? I expect it to be the norm.
[8:59] Zero Linden: object transmission is still likely to be in binary prim format
[9:00] Lillie Yifu: not of the kind that Tree is talking about, but other kinds
[9:00] Rex Cronon: u r going 2 pay them to play their games
[9:00] Tao Takashi: protobufs? ;-)
[9:00] FWord Utorid: Third party worlds should pay to come up with their own way of doing things instead of stealing from Zero
[9:00] Zero Linden: Morgaine - because it is a storage burden - and you become a carrier of arbitrary content
[9:00] Morgaine Dinova: Try not to be an idiot FWord. Nobody is stealing from Zero.
[9:00] Tao Takashi: well, some way of attaching additional information to objects might be handy though. or some way to specify the object format at least
[9:01] FWord Utorid: Morgaine, try to eat more fiber.
[9:01] Tree Kyomoon: I think it would be a win win....get some professional, well funded content in here would make the world a lot more interesting.
[9:01] Zero Linden: For example, while WebDav the protocol allows clients to start arbitrary meta data key-value pairs on each files, I don't know of any web dav implementation that lets you
[9:01] Lillie Yifu: so non-techie lilie will ask if in binary object format is there a field for an arbitrary bit of pinary data which can be sent optionally
[9:01] Lillie Yifu: so a viewer can ask for it to be sent optionally?
[9:01] FWord Utorid: why is it necessary to put that data in with the object when there is llhttprequest?
[9:01] Lillie Yifu: as in "don't bother me with any extensible data..."
[9:02] Lillie Yifu: or
[9:02] Lillie Yifu: "yes send me the extensible data..."
[9:02] Lillie Yifu: so for example a roleplaying game viewer would ask fro extensible data on the roleplaying sims,
[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: how does realXtend do this, anyone know?
[9:02] Lillie Yifu: but not on other sims?
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: Far from being a storage burden, I expect all 3rd party worlds to decompose incoming objects into their internal storage format. Accepting opaque binaries is a recipe for disaster.
[9:03] Zero Linden: Fword - you are confusing domains - llHTTPRequest is for a region to fetch from Internet -- the data in quesion needs to be sent from regino to viewr
[9:03] FWord Utorid: zero, llhttprequest gets the information from the internet into the region
[9:03] Tao Takashi: how big would actually be a gzipped representation of the whole sim? ;)
[9:03] Zero Linden: Morgain - precisely --- I didn't say anything about "opaque binary"
[9:04] FWord Utorid: so you could have xml or other data on your site describing your objects and have the scripts load it
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: kk, I know what you mean then :-)
[9:04] Lillie Yifu: then maybe the solution is to have a cap with extra information
[9:04] Tree Kyomoon: well you can use llhttprequest to reveal new objects via a rez command after certain events occurr
[9:04] Zero Linden: Prims are encoded in a well known (or will be well known) binary format in order to get 5k objects to the viewer quickly
[9:04] Lillie Yifu: if the viewer wants it it asks for the extnsible stream,
[9:04] FWord Utorid: not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with having extra information fields in with the prim data
[9:04] Lillie Yifu: if it never asks the server never sends it
[9:04] Tree Kyomoon: but I dont think objects have an onLoad event do they?
[9:04] Zero Linden: they are encoded/decoded on either side into a native representation
[9:04] FWord Utorid: but it's not fundamentally necessary to extend that format to achieve results.
[9:04] Lillie Yifu: if the viewer asks it is the iwer's responsibility to integrate extensible data with the object data
[9:04] Zero Linden: Tree's request, could be a new well known field, but I felt that we don't know enough about the form such data should take
[9:05] Zero Linden: as we have no experience with such a ssystem
[9:05] Zero Linden: Hence, I thought that it should be a form of optional data associated with the object
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: It would be alright if you could make all objects load but be "invisible" until they are in the client
[9:05] Lillie Yifu: that's why there should just bea ield for "here is the place to get other object data, if any."
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: so we could just add a visible/invisible attribute to objects and an onLoad event
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: again, how does realxtend do it/
[9:05] Zero Linden: but then, as I pointed out, it would unlikely that regions would be willnig to store arbitrary additional data on each object that they don't know about
[9:05] Lillie Yifu: that way whatever application people have in mind could be supported, and it would only have to be done once
[9:06] FWord Utorid: what sort of extra data is really being requested?
[9:06] FWord Utorid: is this extra attributes about the prim or just the ability to add more information of any sort to a prim?
[9:06] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: that's fair enough for existing prims which are a sort of basic required foundation. But OGP is going to handle extensible types in due course, not just the predefined prim binaries, so the field descriptor for the blobs is going to be the "recipe" for decomposing them into local representations.
[9:07] Morgaine Dinova: Or equivalents.
[9:07] Tree Kyomoon: again an onLoad event combined with /visible /invisible attributes would solve this I think
[9:07] Teravus Ousley: remembers hearing a long long time ago that prims were stored in something like 1k of XML data
[9:07] Tree Kyomoon: for objects
[9:07] Saijanai Kuhn: so no-one from realXtend here...
[9:08] FWord Utorid: it's still not clear what this extra information is for, and not clear where a notecard in the prim couldn't keep the information required happily
[9:08] Zero Linden: Right - though I would think for things like Tree envisions, we wouldn't want to have both viewer and region to negotiate and jump to a new format that essentially the same as the existing prim format with just some additional field
[9:09] Zero Linden: because Tree adds feature X and saijanai adds feature Y - we now have two incompatible formats: Prim+X and Prim+Y and getting both features in
[9:09] Zero Linden: requires yet moreformats
[9:09] FWord Utorid: if i were to write an application that needs custom information from objects, I would make the objects contain a specially named 'autoexec' notecard that gets downloaded along with it by my custom client
[9:09] Zero Linden: whereas, in most data that is LLSD based, X and Y (if properally named) can be added into the data map indpenendently and without collision
[9:09] FWord Utorid: 65k of data is a nice handy amount to stuff in there
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: is there already an onLoad event for objects in LSL?
[9:10] Zero Linden: SO - what I was thinking about was that this might call for a case, where, in the protocol, the basic prim stream would remainthe same
[9:10] Zero Linden: and we provide some other avenue for viewers to get additional field data, should the region choose to support and provide it
[9:10] Zero Linden: via an LLSD stream.
[9:10] Zero Linden: Tree - there cannot be
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: tht would work. In the most extreme case, SL prims woud simply not be used
[9:11] Tao Takashi: it might be requested via service discovery and what sort of stream that service uses might be up to the implementation and specification
[9:11] Zero Linden: the script, and the object's existential identity ("soul"?) is on the sim ---
[9:11] Zero Linden: it "onLoad"s 20 times for 20 different viewers
[9:11] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: sure, but that's why extensibility is preferable to multiple separate definitions. If fields are decomposed into the 3rd party implementation, then properties X and Y can be handled separately without a proliferation of object formats. It just becomes dynamic objectclass specialization.
[9:11] FWord Utorid: ok, excellent. so a notecard named 'soul' is included in the prim, and a viewer checks the object inventory on each rez
[9:11] Tree Kyomoon: right so unlike flash, everything is executed on the sim and not on the client? I thought lots of stuff in objects was client side
[9:12] FWord Utorid: if there's a soul notecard, it gets downloaded
[9:12] Zero Linden: Morgaine - we are in completel agreement here ----
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: but I can see how that would be a bit nutty. would almost require a seperate client side virtual machine for each object....eek
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: is suddenly scared
[9:13] FWord Utorid: still hasn't heard one use case where this functionality would actually be beneficial or needed
[9:13] Lillie Yifu: notecard = separate hit to asset server = bad
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: so each object would essentially be a client side script. Hmm now I see objects as akin to images on a server but one day mabey objects could be little exe's like flash has.
[9:13] Zero Linden: FWord - you mean Tree's object load order feature, or the general idea of having a way to make object prim descriptions extensible?
[9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: so... for objecst that don't fit the prim definition, a separate stream would be specified. can this be flexible enough to completely eliminate the use of SL prims in favor of the other definition?
[9:13] FWord Utorid: zero, both.
[9:14] Zero Linden: thinks Tree might want to enter the world of Croquet and experience every 3D object is a Smalltalk object....
[9:14] FWord Utorid: objects that 'don't fit the prim definition' are what kind of objects?
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: FWord, its all about being able to control how a person experiences a sim. If you are making a game, you want to reveal something after a person has seen or done some other thing, and not before
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: its really kool with alimited number of objects. everything is a whiteboard
[9:14] FWord Utorid: tree, the scripting contains mechanisms for that
[9:15] FWord Utorid: so you are saying only load things from the sim at certain game states?
[9:15] FWord Utorid: like, don't show the monsters until you went past the secret door?
[9:16] Tree Kyomoon: well a bit more accurate than that...in an artistic sense, I wouldnt want anyone to see my skeleton avatar for example until all the parts had been loaded into the client. Until then Id rather they saw a blob that said "avatar loading"
[9:16] Rex Cronon: u could make them phantom
[9:16] Tree Kyomoon: it kind of makes the experience better
[9:16] Tree Kyomoon: Imho
[9:16] Zero Linden: No Rex, Tree is talking about a viewer specific effect - not a global property
[9:16] Tree Kyomoon: exactly
[9:16] FWord Utorid: ok. i don't see how that would require extra datafields in prims, but rather more of a client setting not to rez an object until all of the linked prims are loaded
[9:17] Zero Linden: although I think down that road in general lies maddness.... well, at least "lack of shared consensus on (virtual) reality"
[9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: well,for a true game world, youdon't want people able to unset that property
[9:17] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: Wouldn't simple control over phantom + transparency achieve that? All you need in addition to that is the "And all enclosed (or linked?) objects too" property.
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: as objects become more sophisticated it will be crucial
[9:17] Rex Cronon: but, than not everybody sees the same thing
[9:17] Tao Takashi: I think writing a game will be more likely be done as a region implementation
[9:17] Zero Linden: but the specifics of controlling render order and reveal is something most game designers and 3D experience architects would relate to and wish for
[9:17] Zero Linden: BUT
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: Right morgaine, but I would need an onload event to know when to turn everything visible
[9:17] Tao Takashi: if you want a proper game
[9:17] Teravus Ousley: jokes, "I know, lets use VRML! :D"
[9:18] Zero Linden: on that note, I want to hit Agenda Item #2
[9:18] Zero Linden: Morgaine Dinova: Zero, don't know if it's an agenda item or just needs a 1-liner, but (i) is IM intended to go over OGP eventually?, and (ii) if NOT, then will the elements referenced in OGP be available to use in the external IM stream, so that we can carry references to OGP objects in chat?
[9:18] FWord Utorid: tree, here's a workaround... all of the prims in the object are transparent, and a script in the root prim waits and activates the non-transparent functionality
[9:18] Tao Takashi: if you do it as a region implementation you are free to send whatever prims you like to individual clients
[9:18] Lillie Yifu: hmmm lack of shared consensus on virtual reality already exists in sl
[9:18] Tao Takashi: you might even be able to send completely different views of the world to them
[9:18] Tree Kyomoon: fword: waits for what?
[9:19] Tao Takashi: LSL is right now used for such stuff simply because you cannot control the server itself and it also has the advantage of being portable
[9:19] FWord Utorid: this sounds like a job for modifying opensim to have separate object channels
[9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: if the answer is YES, then the question doesn't need elaboration :-) We'll get to it in OGP in due course :-)
[9:19] Zero Linden: Lille - it does if you pick nits -- I think one of the reasons for SL's success is, that for the most part, it does achieve consenus on the shared virtual reality
[9:19] FWord Utorid: tree, delay a reasonable amount of time for the prims to load. but, the truth is, the async nature of prim loading is not something one should control
[9:19] FWord Utorid: other vw's have the requirement of predownloading the typical content and textures
[9:19] Tree Kyomoon: Right...I want an event!
[9:19] FWord Utorid: or you 'load the region' all at once.
[9:19] Zero Linden: It achieves them in the areas that are important to human interaction, without worring about the perhaps more academic worries of bit-for-bit equality
[9:20] Zero Linden: BUT
[9:20] Zero Linden: DING!
[9:20] Lillie Yifu: Zero, let me take you dancing at Franks and you can explain that one to me again.
[9:20] Zero Linden: in the remaining time
[9:20] Lillie Yifu: Maybe if you buy me a drink I will believe it.
[9:20] Cadis Blackadder: hehe
[9:20] Zero Linden: I'd like to address Morgain's item
[9:20] Morgaine Dinova: Cool
[9:21] Zero Linden: Lillie -that sounds just like all the real-world bar encounters I've had: "Are we seeing the same thing here? Oh, a beer? Sure - thanks!"
[9:21] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: mmmm beer
[9:21] Lillie Yifu: That's why I never wear my glasses on a first date. I look better,
[9:21] Lillie Yifu: and so does he.
[9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: decides not to go out drinking with Zero
[9:22] Zero Linden: So - I think IM, as part of a fully immersed experience (you are in world with a viewer, receiving all the other streams of content there)
[9:22] Lillie Yifu: but back to morgaine's point because it is really important...
[9:22] Zero Linden: should just go over OGP with everything else
[9:22] Zero Linden: you're connected to the agent domain, you're connected to the region domain, you've got all the established and authenticated channels
[9:22] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm OGP should have IM, but should have hooks for clients to negotiate other streams that do not go over OGP.
[9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: which goes back to my perenial (sp) suggestion to get legacy goriup IM working so we can play with *something* while waiting for something better to be designed/devised/discovered
[9:23] Zero Linden: and you've got protocol handlers and structured data decoders/encodeers set up
[9:23] Lillie Yifu: e.g. irc
[9:23] Zero Linden: let's just send the 6 messages that IM takes over that existing framework
[9:23] Lillie Yifu: saij++
[9:24] Zero Linden: But - if you're just connecting to your agent domain so that you can do just IM -- then I think it is between you and your agent domain what protocol you want to use
[9:24] FWord Utorid: i think it will be interesting to see what sort of feedback loops will occur when you have messages going around like a token ring
[9:24] Tao Takashi: well, I don't think that's the best solution but as long as the AD has hooks for attaching other system I am happy
[9:24] FWord Utorid: if, for instance, i tp from here, to litesim, and then back
[9:24] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: That would simplify things, yes, from the standpoint of being able to carry world object references (as clickable links) in chat, since they'd map directly to OGP fields.
[9:24] Zero Linden: I see it as perfectly reasonable that an agent domain *could* give you a JID (Jabber ID) for your account, and that you could use a stock Jabber client to connect, authenticate and communicate via that ID
[9:24] Tao Takashi: you can also send clickable links via any other IM system
[9:25] Tao Takashi: as long as the client knows what to do with them
[9:25] Zero Linden: I just don't see the value in negotiating that JID over OGP ---
[9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: implementing thelegacy system should be easy. Have teh AD pose as a sim to the IM server, and forward the gorup IM stuff to the viewer via the AD event queue
[9:25] Tao Takashi: the value is that you don#t have to implement an IM system, you just use e.g. ejabberd
[9:25] Tree Kyomoon: im's use XML right?
[9:25] Tao Takashi: the less new things to understand and implement the better it will be for adoption
[9:26] Zero Linden: Sai - the problem is that the viewer at present will send IM to the sim
[9:26] Zero Linden: I suppose the OGP viewer could just send the same protocol to the AD -- but that protocol, at present is UDP
[9:26] Zero Linden: and message tempalte
[9:27] Zero Linden: so we'd have to make caps for it...
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: well, can it be redirected to teh EQG cap?
[9:27] Zero Linden: in which case ....
[9:27] Zero Linden: we're just doing OGP IM
[9:27] Tao Takashi: but having the AD to negotiate things is ok with me.. it just shouldn't maybe be the jabber id but more so a means of identifying an agent e.g. via OAuth or some other means
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: well, you're impementing a proof of concept with known problems and you can watch how those problems work in the AD environment instead of the sim environment
[9:28] Zero Linden: Sai - alas, we don't currently have a reverse message queue --- that is a general purpose cap on the agent (or region) domain that lets the viewer attempt to invoke a resource by name without first fetching a cpa for it
[9:28] Zero Linden: though that is sounding like a valuable service to me more and more -- especially if we can define it in terms of caps
[9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: and, it gets around the truely horrid issues with the GUI in the GPL viewer where you have to devise new kinds of GUI classes that handle new kidns of connections
[9:28] Zero Linden: (i.e.: It is just a short cut for requesting the cap from the seed cap and then invoking it)
[9:29] Teravus Ousley: jokes again, XMLRPC!
[9:29] FWord Utorid: teravus, WHO is on first. XMLRPC is the referree
[9:29] Zero Linden: slaps Teravus with a trout
[9:29] Teravus Ousley: :D
[9:30] Tree Kyomoon: /poor trout
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: how about inverting the model? If OGP carries IM, then there's no reason why the client shouldn't present a jabber service, and a jabber client connect to the client (which could be just a proxy). Then you could turn off IM output in the client (if desired), since an external client is now handling it.
[9:30] Tree Kyomoon: /i mean...mmmmm trout
[9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, isn't this something that needs to be done anyway? If eventually virtually all connections are via caps, we should know how to send data via caps
[9:30] Teravus Ousley: notes that there's some data from the sim you're coming from... passed to the sim you're going to.. it's optional .. but it's there
[9:30] Zero Linden: Morgaine - there is nothing stopping that from being implemented---
[9:31] Zero Linden: but I, for one, want my IM window nicely integrated with my viewer --- but if others do not -- go ahead
[9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: indeed, as long as OGP carries IM. So I'm happy with that :-)
[9:31] Tree Kyomoon: I would love to put the IM window on my other monitor
[9:31] FWord Utorid: ya
[9:31] Tree Kyomoon: It really ruins the virtual world immersion for me personally :)
[9:31] Tao Takashi: well but that way you wouldn't need to be connected with your SL viewer, it could be any messaging client
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: need a new graphical engine tenb.
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: then*
[9:32] FWord Utorid: i spend most of the time reading words anyway, so virtual world immersion isn't really present.
[9:32] Tao Takashi: right, I also mainly have the big window open at such meetings and don't really see any virtual world ;-)
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: GUI renders in OPenGL view
[9:32] Teravus Ousley: imagines the mibbitclient
[9:32] Tree Kyomoon: exactly me too fword
[9:32] FWord Utorid: like, this whole meeting, i am looking at the lower right corner of the window to see the things people say
[9:32] Tao Takashi: it's more a resource hungry IRC window ;-)
[9:32] FWord Utorid: *left corner
[9:33] Zero Linden: Personally, Tree - I agree with you there - I want it to be integerated into the app -- but in a separate floating window
[9:33] Tree Kyomoon: that would work
[9:33] FWord Utorid: regardless, that's a fundamental that can't be changed, because no offense, but if all of you were on voice, i'd hang up the phone
[9:33] Tree Kyomoon: Id want to pull the ui off the entire thing like in photoshop and put ti all on another monitor
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: could have two different OPenGL windows I supose
[9:33] Morgaine Dinova: If the SL client presents IM on a chat output socket, then one could trivially add chat talkers for instance. At the moment it requires a nasty hack of processing logfiles.
[9:34] FWord Utorid: i have different apps that i have developed for different UI modes, but there's nothing really that will make for a 100% of the time happy solution
[9:34] Tao Takashi: it really sounds as if the easiest thing would be to run a separate IM client which is connected to the 3d stuff via some special URLs ;-)
[9:35] Rex Cronon: yes. an open locally port that can be used by other applications to send receive IM, and chat:)
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: MOrgaine with a 2-way cap (or2 caps) for the IM, anything could come into the same windows or leave. You just have an extra field to say which IM service is getting which data
[9:35] Tree Kyomoon: well we could all log in to MSN and just chat there while we are all in here.
[9:35] FWord Utorid: it would be interesting if you could log in multiple programs to the same avatar
[9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: good point
[9:35] Tree Kyomoon: then just have some keyboard trigger that makes all our arms move
[9:35] Tao Takashi: and even modifying an existing client might be easier than reimplementing the whole IM system. on the server side it would be similar
[9:35] FWord Utorid: so I could log in with the SL viewer and a second separate program would also get the same data
[9:36] Zero Linden: well all
[9:36] Rex Cronon: and your program could interact with the viewer
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: indeed, hence the benefit of keeping IM within OGP, and not a separate system.
[9:36] Tao Takashi: and there are libs for many IM systems which could be reused as well
[9:36] Zero Linden: I hate to break this up....
[9:36] Zero Linden: but indeed, I have to go
[9:36] Zero Linden: remember - no office hours for two weeks
[9:36] Cadis Blackadder: wow that went fast
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: KK, cheers Zero
[9:36] Tree Kyomoon: starting next week?
[9:36] Zero Linden: I will see you all on the 28th!
[9:36] Tao Takashi: Morgaine: but reinventing the wheel is IMHO not the best option.
[9:36] Zero Linden: yes
[9:36] FWord Utorid: tc zero
[9:36] Tree Kyomoon: awww
[9:36] Cadis Blackadder: waves
[9:36] Tao Takashi: take care, Zero! :)
[9:36] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[9:36] Tree Kyomoon: have fun zero!
[9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: so, no kindly LIndens to take over like Whump or Tess?
[9:36] Zero Linden: thank you all for coming.
[9:37] Tao Takashi: thanks for hosting, Zero!
[9:37] Tree Kyomoon: we could still meet sans lindens
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: the IM window is currently square. Reimplementing it is way overdue :-)
[9:37] Tree Kyomoon: theres no lock on zero's place
[9:37] Wrapp Seiling: thank you ...
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Se you later Zero
[9:37] Imaze Rhiano: thanks
[9:37] Zero Linden: Sai --- I think they are at many other meetings as well - so seems like a time to give this a short rest!
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: the IM wheel is currently square. Reimplementing it is way overdue :-)
[9:37] Zero Linden: :-)
[9:37] Lillie Yifu: Thank you Zero!

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 09

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