User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 28

Infinity Linden hosted today office hours.

[12:51] Zha Ewry: is the lucky Infinity, guest hosting
[12:51] Infinity Linden: yup
[12:51] Majong45Kikko Diavolo: ciao
[12:51] Majong45Kikko Diavolo: hello
[12:51] Infinity Linden: hola
[12:52] Majong45Kikko Diavolo: ciao
[12:54] Object: changedsim:
[12:54] Object: simmap:
[12:56] Infinity Linden: hey Whump
[12:56] Whump Linden: Pardon me while stumble about.
[12:57] Whump Linden: running over things that haven't rezzed yet.
[12:57] Infinity Linden: hmm... do you suppose anyone notice the blog posting on open space sim changes?
[12:57] gift Asp: Hey
[12:57] Zha Ewry: Nah. I can't see any evidence of that ;-)
[12:57] Infinity Linden: okay... i should probably start of by saying
[12:58] Infinity Linden: that i'm happy to see people here with strong opinions about the recent open space changes
[12:58] Zha Ewry: counts five tags, one flag, and 10.000 plurks
[12:58] Infinity Linden: it means that there's still a dialog going on
[12:58] Infinity Linden: yup
[12:58] Infinity Linden: as judged by the comments at [1]
[12:58] Infinity Linden: it's clear that lotsa people have a lot of strong opinions
[12:58] Rush Gastel: Halllooooo
[12:59] Infinity Linden: awesum burning bush, btw
[12:59] Chaley May: and we missed the Robin Linden hour
[12:59] Chaley May: did Robin go to her hour?
[12:59] Chaley May: and talk about it?
[12:59] Infinity Linden: for what it's worth... i missed Robin's Hoffice Ours as well
[12:59] Infinity Linden: so i'm not sure who's said what
[12:59] Zha Ewry: Jensen, this is a text only office hour, and your mike is open
[13:00] Jensen Kranfel: I sorry..
[13:00] Jensen Kranfel: I'm Sorry!
[13:00] Infinity Linden: but also... lemme warn you... i'm a technical resource at Linden...
[13:01] Jensen Kranfel: just ametaphor
[13:01] Infinity Linden: so i can't say anything authoritative about the recent free space changes
[13:01] Kahiro Watanabe: We need Technical Solutions not monetary ones
[13:01] Jensen Kranfel: Infinity we need teh decisoon makers
[13:01] Jensen Kranfel: and yes techn resources too
[13:01] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: ah then you will probably be able to clear up questions about apropriat usage for openspaces
[13:01] Tia Mokeev: Deli ci sono sono qui davanti a te
[13:01] Rush Gastel: simple just have a limit set on people allowed on the sims at any one time
[13:01] Morgaine Dinova: 'Afternoon
[13:01] Barb Carson: its insulting beyond believe forANYONE in LL to try to ram down our throats that the OS are being used in ways not intended/condoned
[13:02] stormi Capalini: Hello everyone
[13:02] Barb Carson: belief
[13:02] Tuhimata Homewood: hey
[13:02] Infinity Linden: well... let's get started... Agenda Items?
[13:02] gift Asp: wb
[13:02] Cube Republic: lol
[13:02] Alliez Mysterio: Can you say why LL raised the prims on them ?
[13:02] Tuhimata Homewood: thx
[13:02] Infinity Linden: @Alliez.. nope.. .that's beyond my pay grade
[13:03] Alliez Mysterio: If so unstable was not to swift to do
[13:03] Barb Carson: this is a waste of time isnt it?
[13:03] Alliez Mysterio: ok
[13:03] Zha Ewry: We were tralking about the way Inventory holds asset permisinons, not assets this morning, which, proved interesting to chew on
[13:03] Cube Republic: yeah thats my confusion also how is 50$ going to fix this percieved problem
[13:03] Cube Republic: i love my OS
[13:03] Infinity Linden: @Barb... this is usually a place for technical discussinos
[13:03] Rush Gastel: sell it cheap get us hooked then up the tiers seems like a dirty practisce to me
[13:03] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: statistical data on open space usage... max frame time before it affects others would be a help
[13:03] SexyAnn Ashley: shouts: I have a Group Open about the OS and the Prices ect with Patch and Spike in the Group as Well if anyone wants to Join
[13:03] Cube Republic: i dont have a club
[13:03] Cube Republic: just make tsuff
[13:03] Patnad Babii: why is the openspace Mos Ansley have 1400 script running even tho it is openspace? and its owned by linden lab
[13:03] Chaley May: Zero will tell us the technical changes that LL will do that requires the extra money ?
[13:03] Jensen Kranfel: its already a recession economy, and u have increased prices to 125$ for trees and water ?
[13:03] Infinity Linden: and it often wandered into the realm of the political 'cause Zero's one of the more senior lindens
[13:04] Kahiro Watanabe: Limit avatars amount per sim to 20 or even less. / Limit script load / Warn those who are abusing OS sims.
[13:04] Barb Carson: @infinity i was referring to all the ones here obviously desiring to talk about the os fiasco
[13:04] Infinity Linden: but a wast of time? nah..
[13:04] Jensen Kranfel: well it shud be a democracy
[13:04] Alliez Mysterio: I have pics of that there were sent to me if anyone wants them
[13:04] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: statistical data on open space usage... max frame time before it affects others would be a help
[13:04] Cube Republic: mine runs like a dream
[13:04] Infinity Linden: yeah... i fear i have no great words of wisdom regardin the OS issue
[13:04] Barb Carson: yes.....again...waste of time no?
[13:04] Cube Republic: ive always felt that the move to OS was a great move and allowed more creativity
[13:04] Jensen Kranfel: i dont have lag at my sims
[13:04] Tuhimata Homewood: ahh
[13:04] stormi Capalini: Is there someone we can speak to that does please?
[13:05] Infinity Linden: other than to state the obvious... lotsa peeps have strong opinions
[13:05] Alliez Mysterio: Well why are we having a meeting if no one can speak
[13:05] Tuhimata Homewood: o sorry
[13:05] Cube Republic: now it seems like exploitation
[13:05] Tuhimata Homewood: didnt know you where their
[13:05] River Ely: rezzing - blind - sorry for bumping
[13:05] Tuhimata Homewood: ahhh
[13:05] Tuhimata Homewood: sorry
[13:05] Infinity Linden: because this isn't a meeting for the open space policy
[13:05] Infinity Linden: it's a meeting to discuss technical interop issues
[13:05] stormi Capalini: what is it on please?
[13:05] Aminom Marvin: Why didn't LL forsee that users would try to get every ounce of creativity, use, and value from openspaces? Users have already done that with every single tool and feature in SL. Did they completely overlook the basic nature of SL?
[13:05] Patnad Babii: well there isnt going to have one anyways
[13:05] Teravus Ousley: heh
[13:05] Chaley May: still no Zero?
[13:05] Jensen Kranfel: guys relax
[13:05] Alliez Mysterio: I didnt realize that Infinity if I had I would not be here
[13:05] River Ely: the only policy affecting your users right now is the openspace issue, face up to it
[13:05] Infinity Linden: yup. Zero's out for a few weeks
[13:06] Chaley May: oh
[13:06] Infinity Linden: @River... i think some people may have a different view on that
[13:06] Barb Carson: im going to go watch a sarah palin interview...will get more interesting answers
[13:06] Chaley May: sorry its hard to keep up with chat if i missed you say it
[13:06] Rush Gastel: not me i am with river
[13:06] stormi Capalini: is there anyway we estate owners can have meetings with a linden(s)?
[13:06] Chaley May: i see the sign now
[13:06] Femina Matahari: well tell it to the 364 who have voted on the Jira
[13:07] Femina Matahari: and the 80 who are protesting on nautilus
[13:07] River Ely: if you beleive the Open space sim issue is trivia and not of value , i think you need to refocus
[13:07] Rush Gastel: got the link fem i will make 365
[13:07] Kahiro Watanabe: almost 500 voters
[13:07] Aminom Marvin: 496 voters now
[13:07] Raff Magic: Hello!
[13:07] River Ely: there are literaryly hundreds of avi complaining about the unfair price hike
[13:07] Alliez Mysterio: I have to agree with River also
[13:07] River Ely: it affects us all
[13:07] River Ely: not just a few technical users
[13:07] Infinity Linden: hmm... okay... sure... lets chat about the open space thing then
[13:07] Tuhimata Homewood: sure
[13:08] Infinity Linden: but... keep in mind...
[13:08] Cube Republic: lol
[13:08] Cube Republic: :D
[13:08] stormi Capalini: thank you
[13:08] Infinity Linden: i'm not the policy maker in charge
[13:08] Infinity Linden: but
[13:08] Chaley May: all sims in SL should be open space i think
[13:08] FWord Utorid: you look hawt teravus
[13:08] River Ely: The open space thing has been sold to us as a needed uncrease in costs to cover engineering shortfalls
[13:08] Infinity Linden: with this kind of resident turnout
[13:08] River Ely: seems you are telling us the open spaces have been abused
[13:08] Kahiro Watanabe: Is it hard to limit avatars amount to 20? and limit script usage?
[13:08] Infinity Linden: i'm thinking i would be seriously daft to ignore the issue
[13:08] SexyAnn Ashley: Comment anyone on this
Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less
3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[13:08] Femina Matahari: sorry rush I lost when sl logged me out again for the umpteenth time today
[13:08] Aminom Marvin: not to mention the grid-wide protests, and forum post with 1200+ comments on the openspace issue
[13:08] FWord Utorid: copybot is bad
[13:09] Arcadia Jonson: OMG...I have no idea whats going on...!!!!
[13:09] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. I appear to be on fire.
[13:09] Tuhimata Homewood: i second that lol
[13:09] Kahiro Watanabe: 3) What does less functionality means?
[13:09] River Ely: Arcadia, open sime prices are being raised 66% from 1st Jan
[13:09] River Ely: I think that affects us all
[13:09] Arcadia Jonson: Anarchy in Second Life....
[13:09] River Ely: and its linden driven
[13:09] Infinity Linden: all right! practical suggestions... SexyAnn.. have you posted these on the forumsas well?
[13:09] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: frame time limiters
[13:10] Patnad Babii: Mos Ainsley (169, 152, 103) is by itself abused by the lindens i have evidence of that!
[13:10] SexyAnn Ashley: lol I put them all types of places
[13:10] Arcadia Jonson: I'm gonna abandon my land soon anyways....economy sucks and SL is a waste of money for me...to be honest....
[13:10] Cube Republic: i checked forums over1000 posts and 1 linden reply
[13:10] Tuhimata Homewood: LL JUST WANT MORE MONEY
[13:10] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: it's all about the frame time
[13:10] SexyAnn Ashley: I created a Group of estate Owners on this Subject
[13:10] Chaley May: dont abandon give it away
[13:10] Kahiro Watanabe: Impossible to contact lindens trough blogs.
[13:10] Jensen Kranfel: i jsut started my business and now this
[13:10] Chaley May: find a nice person to give it to
[13:10] Femina Matahari: Infinity I doubt very much if any linden is going to be allowed to discuss anything other than the open space issuee until it is resolved
[13:10] Alliez Mysterio: ok why did LL increase prims is sims so unstabe?
[13:10] Arcadia Jonson: I tried to sell for L! but no one bought it....
[13:10] Aminom Marvin: Practical suggestion is to completely backtrack on this issue. After this, users won't tolerate a "lesser" draconian measure.
[13:10] Arcadia Jonson: sorry...ONE...L1....
[13:10] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: it will cost you to give it away... payor to payor transfers come with a charge
[13:11] Infinity Linden: okay... more practical suggestions... (i'm making a list)
[13:11] Alliez Mysterio: 100usd for 1 to 4
[13:11] Chaley May: oh yea
[13:11] Eastland Newall: at the very least offer free conversions for a certain time frame
[13:11] stormi Capalini: why not grandfather in what open spaces that have sold already?
[13:11] SexyAnn Ashley: Please People Im me if you would like to be added to the Group
[13:11] Rush Gastel: leave it as it is we deserve what we signed up for and paid in good faith
[13:12] Jensen Kranfel: price is okay till around 90$
[13:12] Infinity Linden: and will definitely make sure the people up my management chain get the list of suggestinos and the transcript of this meeting.
[13:12] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23 [script:MEAO core 2008-05-25a]: Script run-time error
[13:12] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23 [script:MEAO core 2008-05-25a]: Stack-Heap Collision
[13:12] Infinity Linden: so
[13:12] Jensen Kranfel: anything more is bad
[13:12] FWord Utorid: wow lag
[13:12] River Ely: its not free conversion s we want, thats a greedy approach, we need to be straight on this, Bait and Switch on prices of open sims is against the social code for everyone
[13:12] Femina Matahari: and dont force those who have taken the odd two just for their own living space to have to make it up to 4
[13:12] Aminom Marvin: If the issue is REALLY resource use, then impliment server-side measures to limit scripts and maximum avatars on an openspace. However, I DO NOT think that is the real issue here. I believe the issue is that openspaces have become so popular that they have devalued mainland hugely, which is the REAL reason for this policy
[13:12] Alliez Mysterio: /nods
[13:12] Jensen Kranfel: it is more about nautilus like spacs
[13:12] Aminom Marvin: in which case, the "practical solution" is to improve mainland significantly, instead of devaluing another product to make it more attractive.
[13:12] Jensen Kranfel: ur selling it for 105000 for 1024sqm
[13:12] Ayesha Lytton: The problem is that people want space and PRIVACY, not mainlandd
[13:13] stormi Capalini: yes
[13:13] Jensen Kranfel: frankly linden has become greedy
[13:13] River Ely: Look around you , these people are really very upset at the Linden Tactic of selling low only to raise the prices when sold.
[13:13] Xavier Irwin: If your making a list Infinity.. I just have one question.... How can a 67% price increase be justified in the current economic climate... and how can the community not see it as anything other than profit making on LL part. Thank you.
[13:13] Rush Gastel: agree aminon
[13:13] Ayesha Lytton: Mainland can never provide nature and beauty like an OS sim can
[13:13] Jensen Kranfel: u know it unethical ?
[13:13] Infinity Linden: @Aminom.. thx... i think we have some existing protections... clearly you're talking about more server-mediated restrictions to make it harder for OS sims to get misused
[13:13] Cube Republic: really at the end of the day linden lab opening nautilus on a user generated platfrom can be seen as further devaluing the content creator market
[13:13] Jensen Kranfel: mainland dont even have EO rights
[13:13] River Ely: Infinity, the Lindens are applying a process to the users that is uncalled for, badly described and morally wrong.
[13:13] Alliez Mysterio: We helped LL grow to what it has become and why do we feel like he have again been blindsided
[13:13] Femina Matahari: and Linden labs is being accused of Bait and Switch
[13:13] Xavier Irwin: Another question... if the policy was to NOT use openspaces for this use.... then why did they not monitor it far more effectively than has been done. Thank you.
[13:14] Femina Matahari: by many people
[13:14] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: Practical solution 1 : price hike with grandfathering and proper limits on usage of the openspaces (ie frame time limiters 4.5ms is probably a good target)
[13:14] Aminom Marvin: Infinity: that would be the most obvious solution, if resource use were the actual problem.
[13:14] Alliez Mysterio: mine dont ever go that high
[13:14] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: practical solution 2: no price hike with limiters
[13:14] River Ely: Infinity, we ask you make representation to the Mark Linden to stop this price rise and negotiate a solution before implementing it
[13:14] Rush Gastel: i only have 50 to 100 people a week how can that be causing you a problem
[13:14] Infinity Linden: okay... i've heard a couple people talk about grandfathering
[13:14] Xavier Irwin: Practical solution: Do not increase by 67%
[13:14] Jensen Kranfel: users actually pay for hardware
[13:14] Chaley May: prims need to be spead out over a larger area and opensims are perfect for that.. by having less object within draw range there should be less impact on servers
[13:14] Alliez Mysterio: and LL said some landowners not good with them, well go after them
[13:14] River Ely: We are your customers, dont care what you think, without us there is No Linden labs
[13:14] Eastland Newall: absolutiely
[13:14] Infinity Linden: and Baronness.. you're talking about technical sim-based limiters?
[13:14] Infinity Linden: right/
[13:14] Alliez Mysterio: I dont go after all renters if one is bad
[13:14] Infinity Linden: ?
[13:14] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: yes
[13:15] Kahiro Watanabe: Limiters / Grandfathering
[13:15] Cube Republic: i get enough traffic to cover tier most of the day my sim is empty (OS) so how am i hogging resources?
[13:15] Jensen Kranfel: i have 10-15 people on opensim even those re not regular
[13:15] *KaS* Waist: Corset ( stomach ): Imaze's waist is freed from its tight encasement.
[13:15] Aminom Marvin: however, I disagree with you framing it as "misuse." SL Users have always "misused" features to get every ounce of creativity and value from them. That's what I do with sculpts. That's what people do with megaprims. And so on.
[13:15] Jensen Kranfel: ban the abusers
[13:15] Cube Republic: agreed
[13:15] Alliez Mysterio: warn and ban
[13:15] Femina Matahari: how is it misuse
[13:15] Jensen Kranfel: yes
[13:15] Jensen Kranfel: dont allow clubs or shops
[13:15] Femina Matahari: you gave people the extra prims
[13:15] Pippen Sonnenblume: Infinity... I think many landowners are concerned that his maneuver is only the tip of the iceberg....
[13:15] Jensen Kranfel: make a comprehensive list of light use
[13:15] Jensen Kranfel: allow houses
[13:15] FWord Utorid: having too many people in a square is abusive
[13:15] Infinity Linden: Aminom... i didn't say you wre misusing things...
[13:15] Femina Matahari: you aloowed them to buy 1 at a time
[13:16] River Ely: Infinity, you can promote and wrap it in anywords you like, the bottom line is the Linden Labs have upset the very people that pay your wages, they are your customers and deserve being treated like adults, not idiots
[13:16] Jensen Kranfel: opensims shoudl be residential
[13:16] Eastland Newall: it does not say that it is considered misuse when we buy open space sims
[13:16] FWord Utorid: you should have to pay more to have more people in your square
[13:16] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: the total usage can be measured by frame time... a full sim has 22ms before lag sets in.. 1/4 of that is 5.5 ms and 4.5 ms would be reasonable considering the extra overhead involved
[13:16] Jensen Kranfel: allowl healthy competition
[13:16] Arcadia Jonson: Screw this chaos......I'm gonna go play WoW...!!!!!
[13:16] Kahiro Watanabe: --> Limiters / Grandfathering / Warn abusers / Ban camp bots.
[13:16] Femina Matahari: and you allowed them to put them anywhere on the grid
[13:16] Eastland Newall: it just says you wont support performance issues
[13:16] Infinity Linden: openspace sims are intended to support a "light" load
[13:16] Ayesha Lytton: Yes, I just bought 2 $195/month tier sims, now I'm afraid they'll get increased too
[13:16] Femina Matahari: you implied to people they could do what they wanted
[13:16] Jensen Kranfel: definelight load
[13:16] Favian Tigerpaw: define light load please...
[13:16] Alliez Mysterio: I had a guy with bots, he is history
[13:16] Phillip Vought: Ok.. isnt this supposed to be a technical forum.. can we at least complain and offer / get technical solutions here?
[13:16] Pippen Sonnenblume: Then why give them 3750 prims?
[13:16] Cube Republic: so why is there 2 linden public work sims fully built ?
[13:16] Aminom Marvin: The fact that there wasn't any actual rules about openspaces, but rather "suggestions" for light use (with statements that said no support would be given for non-light-use openspaces) shows that there is no abuse, as no rules were broken.
[13:16] Jensen Kranfel: do a to the point list
[13:17] River Ely: Infinity , No other business would survive this mindless price increase, especially at a time of rescession, its called price gouging and you are flying against the policy of the government with what you are doing
[13:17] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: my opensims run at 1.8-3 ms in full use
[13:17] Femina Matahari: a guide line is not a rule
[13:17] Infinity Linden: scroll up... i didn't acuse anyone of "abusing their sim" or even violating the ToS
[13:17] Jensen Kranfel: light use is not a rule
[13:17] Alliez Mysterio: LLis welcome to visit any of mine
[13:17] Femina Matahari: Jack did
[13:17] Eastland Newall: just linit script usage and Agents
[13:17] Jensen Kranfel: well peope do abuse it for clubs and shops
[13:17] Rush Gastel: ok what do you consider low load
[13:17] Jensen Kranfel: we eject people lwho do that
[13:17] Femina Matahari: its in the blog
[13:17] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: anything beyond the 5.5 frame time would come off of someone elses sim at this point... a limiter would stop that
[13:17] Infinity Linden: specifically said someone here was abusing the ToS?
[13:17] Alliez Mysterio: it was said in the blog
[13:17] Infinity Linden: are you sure?
[13:18] Aminom Marvin: you didn't infinity. But it is LL policy that openspace "abuse" by a nebulous group of "resource abusers" caused the current policy action
[13:18] Alliez Mysterio: about SOME owners
[13:18] River Ely: It is time for you to understand, we are the addicted ones, we give you feedback and support every day and we put up with a lot of crap from Linden Labs, but this price hike at this time is the most incredible mistake you have mnade since you stopped gambloiing
[13:18] Pippen Sonnenblume: Our OS sims are sold for single residential use... why are we being penalized?
[13:18] Alliez Mysterio: abusing the sims
[13:18] Eastland Newall: i have not been on 1 open sim ..residential.....that i felt was to laggy
[13:18] Alliez Mysterio: There is a lot more to this
[13:18] Jensen Kranfel: u shud ban companies who sell openspace sims are residentiual then
[13:18] Alliez Mysterio: And we deserve to know what it is
[13:19] Jensen Kranfel: my sim is lag free
[13:19] River Ely: Look around you Infinitym do you think we are here for fun, its a major deal you guys have done and its hurting a great many users
[13:19] Twistit Saiman: *nods* agreed
[13:19] Twistit Saiman: Should have thought twice before releasing them, this is just non sense.
[13:19] Christo Larsen: Hello all, thank you Infinity for listening to our concerns....
[13:19] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: hehe.. i sell residential use open sims... they rarely go beyond 3ms frame time... i think the clubs go farther to abuse these things
[13:19] FWord Utorid: the prices on openspace sims should be based on usage instead
[13:19] Infinity Linden: River... i don't doubt your resolve.. .or your intentions
[13:19] FWord Utorid: so if you exceed the happy low level dirt farm ll wants you to have there then you pay a penalty
[13:20] Infinity Linden: i understand you've some very clear feelings about this
[13:20] Jensen Kranfel: clubs are not for Os sims
[13:20] River Ely: You reduced their price, increased their prim count and allowed them to be placed anywhere and to be bought siingly, thats was an invitation, now you hike the price, that is called Fraud
[13:20] Aminom Marvin: yes, thank you Infinity for hearing our concerns. Let me make it clear that I don't blame you for this- but rather the company you work for.
[13:20] Jensen Kranfel: we eject peole who buy land for that
[13:20] FWord Utorid: everyone is a criminal
[13:20] Infinity Linden: all right... the vibe i'm getting here is
[13:20] Alliez Mysterio: back
[13:20] Alliez's translator: espalda
[13:20] Infinity Linden: "some folks abused OpenSpace Sims"
[13:20] Cube Republic: yeah exactly, why would anyone have a disconected free floating os sim
[13:20] Infinity Linden: "so we're all gonna get punished"
[13:20] Phillip Vought: Can we discuss some questions about how Linden labs intends to monitor openspaces.. do you use virtual machines yet? if so are you using VMware?.. if youre not.. do you have any technically simple ways to "contain" bad voids?
[13:20] Cube Republic: so they could have some trees?
[13:20] Cube Republic: lol
[13:20] Patnad Babii: why is there no limit set in your software then this way there wont be abuse at all
[13:20] Danica Palmer: a lot of people are walking away from there open space sims and are leaving game...your going to see a lot more doing this..there will be other games and then what will happen tsecond life...the people are what make sl...if we leave what then
[13:21] Femina Matahari: how can you abuse something
[13:21] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: on a purely political stage this is totally outrageous... but i thought we were looking for practical solutions
[13:21] Infinity Linden: is that a fair definition of the zeitgiest?
[13:21] Jensen Kranfel: Os sims shud be capped for scripts
[13:21] Rush Gastel: so punish the abusers not everyone
[13:21] Jensen Kranfel: and avatars
[13:21] Femina Matahari: Lindens opened them up for people to do more
[13:21] FWord Utorid: we want free stuff
[13:21] Femina Matahari: then accuse people of abusing them
[13:21] Jensen Kranfel: how abused ?
[13:21] Jensen Kranfel: we did not
[13:21] Jensen Kranfel: we just rent them to peole looking for houses
[13:21] River Ely: No one abused anything Infinity, they are ewncouraged for foree use or you would not have sold them in the way you do. You are directly to blame, and by you I mean Lindens
[13:21] Jensen Kranfel: and we always keep 30% prims free
[13:21] Duke McDonnagh: yes you dont have oversight then you blame people for doing what they are allowed to do
[13:22] Phillip Vought: And just to throw in my 2 cents.. my personal collection of voids will close 1Jan.. and I believe the region i'm in will lose about 30 more
[13:22] Duke McDonnagh: and us sim owners get caught in the middle
[13:22] FWord Utorid: it's not right to make people pay for air
[13:22] Femina Matahari: the only abuse going on is estate owners being shafted with more price rises
[13:22] Cube Republic: a lot of people use SL as a hobby and 300per month is just too much for entertainment, at the same time nobody wants mainland, not because of competition, but because its for the most part a crummy experience
[13:22] Chaley May: LL had no clear rules about open spaces and how they should be used.. All there was is a warning that there would be no support for open spaces and they should be used for basic things
[13:22] River Ely: Agrees with Femina, Pass the lube
[13:22] Jensen Kranfel: i spent 600Us$ this month
[13:22] Aminom Marvin: I'd frame it as "LL, by not providing proper resource management for openspace use (limiting scripts, occupancy etc), they created a problem when they restructured how openspaces work. These problems were made much worse by their policy of increasing prim use on openspaces- which basically says, "Feel free to use these sims to a much more fuller extent"
[13:22] Taff Nouvelle: until Jack can tell us exactly what constitutes an abuse we are tied.
[13:22] Jensen Kranfel: we are serious users here
[13:22] Chaley May: i mean there was nothing saying what people cant do
[13:22] Jensen Kranfel: u can check our transactions history
[13:23] FWord Utorid: my mom is mad about this i will tell you that and in the end she will be really angry and i think i feel ill
[13:23] Alliez Mysterio: I have many sims ck and see what I pay per year
[13:23] Duke McDonnagh: im stuck with 16 sims thaT I CANT SELL and cant rent so im out $4,000 US Dollars
[13:23] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: a sim costs about US$295/mth in tier.
[13:23] Infinity Linden: okay... and the suggestion is.. develop technical limits to prevent open space sims from being "abused"
[13:23] Kahiro Watanabe: Yes.
[13:23] Cube Republic: a german chap has just given up 200 sims, that a lot of money to say goodbye too
[13:23] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: instead of a price hike
[13:24] Infinity Linden: and publish clear guidance for what constitutes "abuse"
[13:24] Phillip Vought: only cost recovery for void owners is to combine them in to full sims and sell them
[13:24] River Ely: No Infinity first you have to define exactly what ABUSE is
[13:24] Ayesha Lytton: People want nature, they want beauty...the spaces that are being destroyed in RL also by greedy companies. Personally I got my first sim because I wanted to create a beautiful beach, without floating plywood boxes and gaudy sex clubs next door
[13:24] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: US$5900 a month.
[13:24] Kahiro Watanabe: There are ways to solve it with smarter coding.
[13:24] River Ely: You need to tell the users what is and what is not acceptable, as yet, there is no guidance
[13:24] Kahiro Watanabe: and not bigger servers wich implies more money
[13:24] Jensen Kranfel: my owner ius thiking of leaving
[13:24] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: hang on, I got my numbers wrong woozl!
[13:24] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: i would say that abuse is when your open sim uses up the processing power of another one
[13:24] Duke McDonnagh: that wont do any good infinity unless you all are willing to rollback the prices
[13:24] Jensen Kranfel: she invested 20k Us$ here
[13:24] FWord Utorid: arbitrarily raising everyone's rent is mean
[13:24] Femina Matahari: no philip I have only two voids
[13:24] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: US$3540 a year per sim in tier.
[13:24] Infinity Linden: hmm... River... the problem with defining "precisely" what abuse is
[13:24] Aminom Marvin: Infinity: yes, if resource use is actually the root issue behind LL's motivation.
[13:24] Duke McDonnagh: right now under the new terms OS sims are worthless
[13:24] River Ely: createing changes like that could impact on many users happily paying you tier
[13:24] Femina Matahari: one my owner lives on and one i live on
[13:24] Cube Republic: yes leave the openspace sims then make another inbetween size sim with more prims
[13:24] Alliez Mysterio: over 200K a year
[13:25] River Ely: you do not want to lose those that make use of a sim responsibly
[13:25] Patnad Babii: establish Software limits for openspace and dontraise the prices thats a fair resolution
[13:25] Femina Matahari: why should I be forced to buy 2 more
[13:25] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: if you define a limit that is 'abusive', people will always try to fly barely under that limit.
[13:25] FWord Utorid: if my neighbor abuses the rules so now i have to pay
[13:25] Infinity Linden: is that it's hard to predict every possible way that a system can be gamed
[13:25] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: it is the human nature.
[13:25] Jensen Kranfel: give us 100$ islands infinity
[13:25] Jensen Kranfel: everyone is human
[13:25] Patnad Babii: dont make us pay higher fee for your own mistake
[13:25] Jensen Kranfel: we are not saints
[13:25] FWord Utorid: this is all because of ibm
[13:25] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Hell, even us Woozls do it all the time.
[13:25] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Oh where does that come from?
[13:25] Jensen Kranfel: IBM gave u class 6 servers
[13:25] River Ely: Dont talk about Gaming Infinity, we simply need you all to stop this price hike and start talking to user to define what is acceptable
[13:25] Jensen Kranfel: why get the cost from us
[13:25] Cube Republic: but this word abuse is rediculous, how can you abuse a sim lol
[13:26] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: yes but a no limit system which can "borrow" from it's neighbours resources is being abused
[13:26] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Oh, it can be done.
[13:26] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: lots of recursive ops, in a box.
[13:26] Jensen Kranfel: we didnt invited IBM ?
[13:26] Cube Republic: its like treating your user base like naughty school children
[13:26] Patnad Babii: we are the one that drive the economy in SL why backstabing us
[13:26] Aminom Marvin: By framing the issue as being about resource abuse, LL comes off as disingenuous as they allow other forms of heavy resource usage in normal sims- for example, allowing entire private sims nearly filled with traffic-sucking bots.
[13:26] Infinity Linden: yeah... i was hoping to use the term "misuse" or "use in a manner not completely consistent with the terms of service."
[13:26] Duke McDonnagh: frankily the resource usage issue is a false argument. There is no issue from Lindens point of few because the people suffering the lag are the residents not the system. Now you have made it worse because im shutting down my 16 sims and the residents are out in the cold
[13:26] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: The biggest issue is that since 2003, SL's userbase has tended to have a culture that encourages risk-approachment.
[13:26] FWord Utorid: copybot is responsible for all of this
[13:26] Cube Republic: and using silly words to misinform and destract from the real issue which is you want to make more money
[13:26] Femina Matahari: because patnab it looks like they dont want us anymore
[13:26] Cube Republic: simple as
[13:26] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: keep piling on the bricks until the tower comes crashing down.
[13:26] Rush Gastel: wow i cannot read fastenough
[13:27] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: deadpans.
[13:27] Eastland Newall: from 5000 to 22000 sims worth
[13:27] Jensen Kranfel: u have to define light use Infinity
[13:27] Patnad Babii: if were not here the lab will close then.
[13:27] Chaley May: Zero is lucky to not have to do this Linden Office hour :)
[13:27] Jensen Kranfel: GREAT MY OWNDER JUST CLSOED HER BUSINESS
[13:27] Jensen Kranfel: SHE KNOWS 23 SIMS
[13:27] Jensen Kranfel: OWNS*
[13:27] Alliez Mysterio: Why have no owners been informed you are abusing the sims?
[13:27] River Ely: We know that SecondLife is an Income Generation Vehicle for the Linden Shareholders. THis policy you are implementing will detroy a significant portion of your income
[13:27] Infinity Linden: @Duke... respectfully... yes.. resource usage _IS_ a concern
[13:28] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: People people, what's with all this "I'll stab me own throat" business?
[13:28] Kristina Simon: hi jensen.. and the next one is going to do this too.. and i own more then 24
[13:28] FWord Utorid: you should have told us about this before the day you decided to do it
[13:28] Patnad Babii: then limit it !!
[13:28] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: i would like to offer that misuse is any use that causes your sim to consistantly, for any length of time, borrow resources from another sim on the same CPU
[13:28] Infinity Linden: @Alliez... sadly... we do perform software testing... some code does get injured in the QA process
[13:28] Layla Fiertze: it seems simple enough to set REASONABLE limits and price them REASONABLY for what the limits are how hard is that to do?
[13:28] Rush Gastel: i wont bepaying the next tier when its due
[13:28] Patnad Babii: you cant expect a resident to limit his action when they know nothing about usage of sim !
[13:28] River Ely: Your Policy Infinity ( Mr Linden) is creating a lot of negative press, something not good for you
[13:28] FWord Utorid: notice of a possible change in the rent is always done in the real world
[13:28] Cube Republic: onerous financial charges are in brach statutory implied terms of contract at least under EU law
[13:29] Danica Palmer: all second life will have left are the free members, then see how you will do
[13:29] Cube Republic: breach*
[13:29] Alliez Mysterio: LL came to me ans asked if they could test an OS of mine, was running very poorly with one a small house on it, I said sure and asked to be informed what they found out. this was a few months ago I never heard from anyone on it
[13:29] FWord Utorid: typically if one wants to charge more one should offer more in return
[13:29] Patnad Babii: for us if the sim is up then its FINE!
[13:29] Alliez Mysterio: So I do know they check them out
[13:29] Chaley May: 50000 people use SL every night and they will use resources reguardless of where they are. You need to make sure high traffic sims dont share servers with low traffic sims and sre there is a lot of emty sims
[13:29] Jensen Kranfel: it is illgela anywhere in teh world
[13:29] Infinity Linden: okay... what are the general thoguhts of how to handle situations where someone with a bazillion attachments rezzes into a sim that's 3 prims shy of its limit?
[13:29] FWord Utorid: they should have to pay for how many prims they are using in their attachments
[13:29] Alliez Mysterio: take it down and notify owner just why
[13:29] Infinity Linden: @River... er.. um.. that's Ms. Linden
[13:29] Femina Matahari: so we have cg linden behind us
[13:30] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Oh joy, now we're going back to 2003 again?
[13:30] Duke McDonnagh: lets face it you guys are doing this because mainland is not selling. Has not got 1 thing to do with resource issues, except for a few complaints that you must handle from residents
[13:30] Aminom Marvin: Infinity: easy: limit the maximum amount of prims per avatar, but keep the 255 limit per attachment.
[13:30] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: by counting it's frame time... and using that to limit avatar entry, script speed and physics responses
[13:30] FWord Utorid: if you have too much hair in SL you should have to pay a hair tier
[13:30] Cube Republic: thats rediculous that can happen on a regular sim as well
[13:30] River Ely: Whump Linden is here too, how nice to meet you
[13:30] Duke McDonnagh: lets face it you guys are doing this because mainland is not selling. Has not got 1 thing to do with resource issues, except for a few complaints that you must handle from residents
[13:30] Infinity Linden: hmm.. FWord has an interesting suggestion
[13:30] Phillip Vought: Infinity.. I think you should be more worried abotu the script load of each avatar more than prims... Prims only affect the sim during transit..
[13:30] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: and how can you tell if a prim is a hair or just an overly wrought balustrade?
[13:30] Infinity Linden: Phillip... i htink you're on to something there
[13:30] FWord Utorid: the sim owner can't control how many prims the visitors of the sim wears and shouldn't have to pay the fee
[13:30] Pippen Sonnenblume: Infinity you place tiers on hair and every female in SL will be after M... lol
[13:30] Aminom Marvin: I agree. The real issue here is almost certainly about mainland being so low in price
[13:30] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: are there hair prims in SL? no.
[13:31] Cube Republic: i dont everwantt to live on mainland again, the experience was negative
[13:31] Phillip Vought: we need a script RC the same way we have an ARC..
[13:31] Femina Matahari: so when you have nearly 600US$ per month including VAT for 4 voids how long before you charge the same prices fo a full sim?
[13:31] Infinity Linden: yup... Zha recently noted the evolution of hair in-world.
[13:31] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: script load is supposed to be comming down as ppl switch to mono... but there's not been enough time to get everyone changed over
[13:31] Femina Matahari: any comments?
[13:31] Taff Nouvelle: ok no one can get into this sim because it has reached its limit, do the same with attacxhments.
[13:31] River Ely: Greetings to CG Linden as well
[13:31] Infinity Linden: what was "high end" two years ago is now "common"
[13:31] Phillip Vought: regular non-estat owners dont understand how much script time avatars use..
[13:31] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I'm very encouraged. the last thing my boss said to me before she collapsed in bed was "These guys are savaging people rather than policy. bakabakabakazzz..."
[13:31] Taff Nouvelle: so limit the number of scripts
[13:31] Jensen Kranfel: U cannot increase prices overnight
[13:32] Jensen Kranfel: that too when we are under recession
[13:32] Duke McDonnagh: lets face it you guys are doing this because mainland is not selling. Has not got 1 thing to do with resource issues, except for a few complaints that you must handle from residents
[13:32] Infinity Linden: what concerns me is it's hard to say what the next "best practice" for any digital asset will be in the future
[13:32] Jensen Kranfel: and why is Linden selling overpriced land
[13:32] Femina Matahari: jensen they can and often do
[13:32] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Jensen has a valid query.
[13:32] FWord Utorid: as the inventor of hair tier i demand licensing rights for any and all hair tier fees
[13:32] Taff Nouvelle: why is there NEW land when you cant sell the old you already have
[13:32] Jensen Kranfel: well we need to develop systems to keep in check
[13:32] Danica Palmer: i agree with Duke..mainland..nobody wants it
[13:32] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: the limit is not prims, not scripts, not physics... it's CPU cycles
[13:32] Femina Matahari: or they wipe out the value of your sims by reducing them overnight
[13:32] River Ely: Infinity, would yo agree the price hike is justified and do you support it?
[13:32] Whump Linden: Again, Jack Linden is responding to questions and comments about the policy change on the forum thread: [2]
[13:32] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: certain sims in the mainland are overpriced beyond any ostensibly sane measure.
[13:32] Infinity Linden: Jensen... i'm not in charge of pricing policy
[13:32] Rush Gastel: well i just completed my 1000 flexi prim hair
[13:32] Alliez Mysterio: to sell of it in an new way
[13:33] Duke McDonnagh: no he issnt whump hes spewing bs like alwaYS
[13:33] Jensen Kranfel: i knwo ur not
[13:33] Infinity Linden: (otherwise ther would be very reasonable pricing for people with unpronouncable irish names)
[13:33] Femina Matahari: or they close gambling down with no warning when you have just furnished your club
[13:33] Patnad Babii: right... jack is out of office for a week....
[13:33] Jensen Kranfel: im just expressing
[13:33] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: the limit is not prims, not scripts, not physics... it's CPU cycles... cpu cycles and bandwidth are the comodity...
[13:33] Jensen Kranfel: thats it not just tech issues
[13:33] FWord Utorid: in the future, you should have to pay for the number of sentences you expell throughout your lifetime and the bandwidth and processor power it consumes.
[13:33] Phillip Vought: Infinity.. the problem i have is jacks post is schitzophrenic... he says. "abuse" and the fix is higher prices.. that just doesnt make sense.. abuse is fixed by bans and warnings.. increased performance (2 voids to a simn) is a soltion that warrants an increase in price.. by increasing price with no performance gain, you dont solve a problem.. you just drive up mainland pricing..
[13:33] Jensen Kranfel: its the competition in busenss
[13:33] Duke McDonnagh: YOU GUYS DONT CARE unless it benefits you
[13:33] FWord Utorid: DUKE WE DO TOO CARE
[13:33] Jensen Kranfel: i am Sr. Proejct Manager Operation in real life
[13:33] Taff Nouvelle: hahaha what a suprise, Jack has left :-))
[13:33] Infinity Linden: @Duke... that's not true
[13:33] Alliez Mysterio: Its not Jacks fault and we all know or should know that
[13:33] Jensen Kranfel: and i do understand Business practices
[13:33] River Ely: Infinity do yo agree with increasiong the prices on Open sims by 66% and do you support that move
[13:34] FWord Utorid: i am the princess of zumunda
[13:34] Infinity Linden: if we didn't care, we wouldn't be having this conversation
[13:34] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: This perception may not be true, but the existence of it is a potential cause of problems and should ideally be solved asap. woozl.
[13:34] Duke McDonnagh: then why do you continue to approach problems liek this with a bulldozer instead of a real solution thats fair?
[13:34] Danica Palmer: yes its true Infinity
[13:34] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I'm a lowly coder from Woozlstan, but never mind me.
[13:34] FWord Utorid: @river, this is not about open sims, this is about open space sims, there's a difference between open sim and open space sims
[13:34] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: and there lies the crux of the matter. fairness.
[13:34] Duke McDonnagh: 60% increase over night, no waRNING
[13:34] Cati Capalini: 66%
[13:34] Duke McDonnagh: THATS CARING?
[13:34] Aminom Marvin: Phillip: that, along with the disingenuous attempt to say that LL did not "forsee" users using openspaces in such ways, is the crux of the reasoning behind resource use not being the real issue.
[13:35] Alliez Mysterio: Well this is not first time LL has done it to us is it ????
[13:35] Rush Gastel: you didnt want this conversation your were forced into it
[13:35] Infinity Linden: but yeah... it's clear that amongst this audience we're all going to have to work very hard to regain some of the trust that appears lost
[13:35] FWord Utorid: opensims are free except you have to have the hardware and the bandwidth. open space sims are not rent controlled environments
[13:35] Femina Matahari: that is a sematic arguement and pointless we all know whgat she meant
[13:35] Rush Gastel: some truyst try all trust
[13:35] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: but first, someone get me a fireextinguisher, because the guy next to me is burning to death apparently.
[13:35] River Ely: Open Space Sims are having their prices increased by 66% on jan 1st, I want to know if the lindens here support that price increase?
[13:35] Cati Capalini: i think the loss will be more then just trust
[13:35] FWord Utorid: we never trusted you, we know you are in league with the forces of darkness
[13:35] Whump Linden: Duke, as noted above, neither Infinity or I can change policy. We are engineers. The Linden Lab employee responding to those questions is doing in on the forum thread: [3]
[13:35] Duke McDonnagh: still the best damn game in the history of the internet but your going to loose everything if you dont wake up
[13:35] Femina Matahari: FWORD STOP ARGUING SEMANTICS
[13:35] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: perhaps 3-5 months of "cracking down" on "abusers" and proper warnings before a major plan like the one on the blog
[13:35] Phillip Vought: Infinity.. there is also a real PR issue here.. if jack did this with less than M Lindens approval then thre's a need to look at process.. if M did approve then he neads to understand that the stockmarket was destroyed simply through loss of confidence.. the same thing LL is suffering here.. this will cost LL hard money wither way now.. PLEASE handlle these issues better next time
[13:35] Cube Republic: the user base makes linden lab
[13:35] Danica Palmer: people that spent hard earned money invested in sl and to what fo lindens to do this...why would they let people just walk away without coming up with a solution and if they think raising prices is a solution then they are wrong
[13:35] Alliez Mysterio: Look at money many of us lost when LL sold sims for 1K instead of 1675
[13:35] Aminom Marvin: Infinity: not just this audiance. Almost every user on the entire grid feels similarly. This is demonstrated now, and will be even moreso in the coming days.
[13:36] Cube Republic: you can make ur voices heard :)
[13:36] Currency Calculator: HUD: Der aktuelle USD/SLL Mittelkurs ist jetzt 279.00 L$/US$ [4]
[13:36] FWord Utorid: @whump why don't the management people get in-world and take the heat in stead of the developers
[13:36] Cube Republic: our*
[13:36] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: there seems to be some agreement on that.
[13:36] Jensen Kranfel: we need decisions makers here
[13:36] Lim Catteneo: 125 * 16 = 2000 USD per server hosting opensims, that's making a killing ;)
[13:36] Jensen Kranfel: not technical staff
[13:36] River Ely: Linden management are still at Lunch
[13:36] Phillip Vought: I also support M linden getting his ass in to the world he runs and explaining whats going on here
[13:36] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I fail to see the fairness of Lindens who have been tasked for matters other than making decisions taking the heat for those decisions when they fall over.
[13:36] Taff Nouvelle: yes
[13:36] Teravus Ousley: "Open Space Sims"
[13:36] Kahiro Watanabe: Thanks Infinity for listening to us. Even if you are not related with this economic policy. I know technical solutions can be found without the need of increasing the tier in a 60% of the original price.
[13:36] Rush Gastel: out to lunch you mean river
[13:36] Jensen Kranfel: please send the CEO infinity or the CFO or theCOO
[13:37] Duke McDonnagh: get the person who made the "business decisision" (not a bad one from a bottom line perspective) to come in here and say HE/SHE Cars
[13:37] Duke McDonnagh: cares
[13:37] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: i don't know of any multitask operating system that can't allocate CPU cycles based on a formula... this can be done
[13:37] Infinity Linden: okay... more actionable suggestions... cracking down on abusers
[13:37] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: The golden standard for outrage in SL is "LL to close Second Life".
[13:37] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: same with bandwidth
[13:37] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Infinity, my colleague and I have thought about it a bit in the past hour.
[13:37] Phillip Vought: Yes.. Infinity.. define abuse.. give us time to comply
[13:37] Femina Matahari: NO I still dont agree in this abuser label
[13:37] Lim Catteneo: Infinity, make opensims run 3 per cpu or something, to justify the price hike *and* help with the performance issues
[13:37] Phillip Vought: the "ungrandfather" those that dont comply
[13:37] Infinity Linden: Femina... who's been calling you an abuser?
[13:38] Patnad Babii: but who are the abusers, are they the ones using 1400 script on a openspace? the one with more then 20 trees what are they! ???!
[13:38] River Ely: No Infinity, its nothing to do with abusers, its to do with unfair implemented price hikes, its gouging its bait and switch and you have made a big mistake, you have to agree with me there
[13:38] Taff Nouvelle: Jack has
[13:38] FWord Utorid: I think the solution the residents should demand is to enforce the lindens to live in the low-prim poverty that they try to enforce upon the renters. if the lindens want to claim hair tier, then they should be forced to be bald to reduce their impact on a world we pay to rent.
[13:38] Jensen Kranfel: Lindens are only making people mad right now
[13:38] Phillip Vought: but DO immediately put technical soluitions in place to limit cross contamination of voids
[13:38] Femina Matahari: Lindens implied they could do what they liked by increasing prims and changing the qualifications
[13:38] Jensen Kranfel: by making us talkj and do nothing
[13:38] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: would it be possible to code some form or method for flagging sims that are consistently bursting in terms of resource use and monitor them for a period?
[13:38] Duke McDonnagh: lets face it you guys are doing this because mainland is not selling. Has not got 1 thing to do with resource issues, except for a few complaints that you must handle from residents
[13:38] Jensen Kranfel: where is Jack Linden
[13:38] Kahiro Watanabe: Camping bots that's a grid wide issue. Some PPL is using camping bots in open space sims
[13:38] Patnad Babii: jack is in hawaii
[13:38] Jensen Kranfel: we need terms of use for sims
[13:38] Infinity Linden: Jensen... belive me... if i could find Jack... i would get him right now
[13:38] Jensen Kranfel: a to the point list
[13:39] Phillip Vought: Way to get muted Duke
[13:39] Patnad Babii: having a blast with our money
[13:39] Teravus Ousley: :(
[13:39] Danica Palmer: we want jack, we want jac, we want jack
[13:39] Cube Republic: lol
[13:39] Femina Matahari: Infinity no one has but I dont like this witch hunt against people who had no idea they were breaking any rulings
[13:39] Infinity Linden: really? Jack's in Hawaii?
[13:39] Cati Capalini: well Infinity this is not personal
[13:39] Indira Matova: o_0
[13:39] River Ely: get jack on the phone, its his business to be here, hell, we have that technology now, its not an excuse any longer to be not here
[13:39] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: statistical data is what computers do best:) heck i could write a sim performance monitor in LSL
[13:39] Aminom Marvin: Actionable suggestions? A major policy to all users of LL by Jack Linden, M Linden, and any other employee involved in formulating this policy, a complete retraction of the policy, and some sort of realignment in how LL works to make sure that policies like this which hurt so many customers are never proposed again.
[13:39] Infinity Linden: yeah... i hear you Cati
[13:39] Duke McDonnagh: well since no one answered its becaus eits true :)
[13:39] Infinity Linden: i'm not taking it personally...
[13:39] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: there should also be at least some form of notice that the sim is running above capacity. prolonged failure to fix this issue should be considered acceptance to convert the offending OpenSpace to a full sim and payment of the difference in tier and setup costs.
[13:39] Duke McDonnagh: gl everyone and bless all lindens they work hard :)
[13:39] Cati Capalini: but some management should be present and not let their employees deal with the shit
[13:39] FWord Utorid: NOW IS THE TIME OF REVOLUTION AND WE ARE REVOLTING!
[13:39] Alliez Mysterio: Good, cause we sure dont mean it that way Infinity
[13:39] Infinity Linden: and while i'm not the person who makes policy decisions for pricing
[13:39] River Ely: You boast that second life can bring people together but you cant get your managers on line, do me a favor, I dont beleive you
[13:40] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: FWord, stop stirring the pot with an excrement-covered stick!
[13:40] Cube Republic: youve been most accomodating infinity thankyou for listening :D
[13:40] Phillip Vought: The nutzo thing is if you had inroduced a "supervoid" we'd all cheer and upgrade where we could.. instead we get this.. NUTS
[13:40] Taff Nouvelle: yes
[13:40] Infinity Linden: i'm trying to help everyone here understand how you might get the best response from then what are responsible
[13:40] Aminom Marvin: This policy shows, at its core, that LL is BROKEN. To make such a policy turn only months after changing it, and the extreme disreguard for the negative PR and anger from its users, shows that LL is almost completely cut off from the desires of its customers.
[13:40] Danica Palmer: no you dont...but hear us and go back and tell Jack since he wont come to us
[13:40] Kahiro Watanabe: I think you have some points already Infinity
[13:41] Infinity Linden: i'm not feeling cutoff from our customers at this moment
[13:41] Alliez Mysterio: I dont understand how LL could keep pushing out the os sims if they were causing such problems
[13:41] FWord Utorid: I think that LL is a cult and they are building a rocket ship to go into space and dominate humanity, and that this extra fee is a tax to make people pay for their gas.
[13:41] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: inherent in this suggestion is that ways should be implemented to allow owners of openspace sims to better monitor OpenSpaces they own and determine more easily the causes of overuse.
[13:41] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Oh for the love of...
[13:41] Taff Nouvelle: Infinity, this is an important day . make or break.
[13:41] Aminom Marvin: Infinity: maybe not you, and I know several Lindens who are very reponsive :) I'm talking about how the company operates as a whole.
[13:41] Teravus Ousley: One flaw in that premise fword; Gas is currently cheap :D
[13:41] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: LOOK, I'm the one who's supposed to be an idiot, stop taking my spot!
[13:42] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: WOOOOZL
[13:42] Phillip Vought: and at a basic level Linden Labs needs to institute some thread controls to prevent voids exceeding more than 25% of a cpu
[13:42] Phillip Vought: even tying them to a single core would help this instantly
[13:42] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: ctrl shift 1.... click simulator.... scroll to the bottom... click time(ms)
[13:42] FWord Utorid: Teravus, you are secretly in cahoots with the dark lord who makes us all wear pants.
[13:42] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: facepalms.
[13:42] Phillip Vought: actually infinity.. theres a NO COST fix for this whole mess.. bind Voids to specific cores
[13:43] Teravus Ousley: Well, my understanding is that they do tie sims to processors in a normal sim. But.. in an OpenSpace Sim, there are more sims then processors.
[13:43] Kahiro Watanabe: just a matter of smart coding no need of having 8 core cpus to solve every issue.
[13:43] Chaley May: im from the UK,, we got VAT of 17.5%, extremely weak pound vs dollar at the moment and now they raise prices of open sims
[13:43] Femina Matahari: Infinity you and the other Lindens we see here are the face of LInden Labs we see at this time we need you to stop what your doing before you sink the whole dam ship
[13:43] Infinity Linden: okay.. before we jump to technical solutions...
[13:43] Rush Gastel: is there a way to find the mono script time not the lsl one
[13:43] Infinity Linden: theres a couple "problem domain" takeaways here
[13:43] Infinity Linden: 1. residents are mad
[13:43] Phillip Vought: hehe
[13:43] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: yep if 4 are bound to one core and all 4 are owned by the same person; only that person will experience lag in their sims
[13:43] Jensen Kranfel: my owner is closing all her sims
[13:43] Jensen Kranfel: u want people to go bankrupt ?
[13:43] Kahiro Watanabe: (let's listen please)
[13:43] Aminom Marvin: understatement, but yes.
[13:44] Pippen Sonnenblume: Infinity... perhaps before policies are put into place... obtain input form those of us who will be affected by them?
[13:44] Infinity Linden: 1.a. "last minute" price changes
[13:44] Taff Nouvelle: as usual
[13:44] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: with the latest RC viewers, script events are measured in terms of mono instructions per second already in statistics, so it's all clear.
[13:44] Rush Gastel: is there a way to find the mono script time not the lsl one
[13:44] River Ely: Infinity, if you are finding this amusing, you are reminded that we pay your wages
[13:44] Infinity Linden: 1.b. perception that everyone who bought an OS sim is getting tarred with the "abuser" brush
[13:44] Phillip Vought: river chill.. infinity is summarising
[13:44] Teravus Ousley: River, I don't think that she's finding it amusing.
[13:45] Infinity Linden: @river... trust me... i would much rather be watching NetFlix at the moment
[13:45] Kahiro Watanabe: (please let us her to speak)
[13:45] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: There is a difference between amusement and determining the problem.
[13:45] Teravus Ousley: .. River.. Technical people tend to write documentation and requirements...
[13:45] River Ely: I miss read 'residents are mad' for 'resident are angry'
[13:45] Infinity Linden: and right..
[13:45] SexyAnn Ashley: Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less Open Sims
3) Offer Open sims with less functionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better functionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
a) allow them more resources I.E. if you charging 67% more then give them 67% more.
b) put less on each CPU
5) take Open Sims off the Market completely.
6) Use a Meter to track Use and Misuse of open Sims on New Client you are Developing.
Post to the Community what the Correct usage is and How to achieve this.
1) How many scripts one can use
2) how many textures
3) examples of Loads that are with-in reason. I.E. 250 scripts 250 Textures and 25 Avatars.
[13:45] Teravus Ousley: .. And infinity is defining the problem..
[13:45] Taff Nouvelle: not only that Infinity, we feel we have been conned into buying so that LL can profiteer.
[13:45] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: i would revise that to "a blanket policy creates the perception that everyone is painted with the abuser brush"
[13:45] Infinity Linden: 2. residents want clearer definitions of resource consumption limits
[13:45] Ayesha Lytton: Perception that you want this market/product to fail
[13:45] Chaley May: The fact infinity is talking about it even though its not really the topic of this office hour is a good thing :)
[13:46] Rush Gastel: i want what i paid for
[13:46] Indira Matova: >>>>> YES >>>> Use a Meter to track Use and Misuse of open Sims on New Client you are Developing.
[13:46] Rush Gastel: not new limits that you decide on
[13:46] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: You wanted solutions, Rush. Let Infinity try to feel a way out.
[13:46] Indira Matova: sinner should only pay :/
[13:46] Infinity Linden: 3. punish sim operators who try to overload thier openspace sims (without hurting people who are trying to get close, but not over resource allocation limits)
[13:46] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Infinty?
[13:46] Infinity Linden: thx tomorrow
[13:46] Cube Republic: limit parcels per os to 2 or 3
[13:46] Lady Sakai: (193.5 a-z Residents would love not waking up with knifes in their backs)
[13:46] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I propose a forced conversion to full sim for prolonged openspace abuse.
[13:46] Infinity Linden: cube has another suggestion... that's a good on
[13:46] Indira Matova: mke only estate owner able to build:/
[13:47] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: this includes payment of the difference in costs between an openspace and a fuill sim.
[13:47] Cati Capalini: eg Mos Ainsley
[13:47] Pippen Sonnenblume: I disagree with that World...
[13:47] River Ely: Why punish anyone, punish is a hard and unwanted worrd, guidance on assistance would be infinitly better to use
[13:47] Kahiro Watanabe: If a full sim can hold 60 avs an open sim should be limited to 15
[13:47] Infinity Linden: Tomorrow... maybe like an auto-detect... where if an OS sim consistently goes over usage, it gets upgraded to a regular sim..
[13:47] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: this is of course determinant on giving estate owners reasonable ways to detect, determine and delete such abuse.
[13:47] SexyAnn Ashley: Infinity Read my Statement I wonder
[13:47] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: nods.
[13:47] Cati Capalini: LL itself is misusing OS
[13:48] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Miss Ping said that, yus.
[13:48] Infinity Linden: kinda like Verizon does when i go over my monthly wireless minutes
[13:48] Femina Matahari: and dont make those of us who have less than 4 os sims to have to buy more to make up the full 4
[13:48] Taff Nouvelle: warning first, THEN upgrade
[13:48] Aminom Marvin: To get a measure of current Resident anger, look at the massive clusters of green dots in the Nautilus sims. That is from just a disorganized, spontaneous protest.
[13:48] Femina Matahari: thats unfair I have no use for more
[13:48] Danica Palmer: there has to be better solutions than gouging the sim owners
[13:48] Cube Republic: open grid uses VM ware to share sim loads
[13:48] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: That is another possibility.
[13:48] Infinity Linden: yup... @Taff... yup... we got that one
[13:48] SexyAnn Ashley: Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less Open Sims
3) Offer Open sims with less functionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better functionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
a) allow them more resources I.E. if you charging 67% more then give them 67% more.
b) put less on each CPU
5) take Open Sims off the Market completely.
6) Use a Meter to track Use and Misuse of open Sims on New Client you are Developing.
Post to the Community what the Correct usage is and How to achieve this.
1) How many scripts one can use
2) how many textures
3) examples of Loads that are with-in reason. I.E. 250 scripts 250 Textures and 25 Avatars.
[13:48] Femina Matahari: Infinity did you get what i said
[13:48] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: in many recent sserver uses, there seems to be a trend towards some form of virtualization.
[13:49] Cati Capalini: what about grandfather
[13:49] Infinity Linden: right SexyAnn... got that in the transcript
[13:49] Cube Republic: ban sex beds
[13:49] Pippen Sonnenblume: Infinity... I think it is also important to include grandfathering for those OS sims already in place...
[13:49] Cube Republic: lol
[13:49] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Intel and AMD have even noted and adapted to this, with some recent server chips being capable of doing so right from the silcon level.
[13:49] Chaley May: If a sim is attracting a lot of people that is a good thing for SL. You should be encouraging people to get people in their sims and not punishing them
[13:49] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: the grandfather point is only usefull if there is a price hike
[13:49] Infinity Linden: we're obviusly moving over to the "solution space" here
[13:49] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I appreciate it.
[13:49] Aminom Marvin: Cube: that would destroy sl! ;)
[13:49] Kahiro Watanabe: Grandfathering is not a techical issue here.
[13:49] X-LANG 3.0: [script:trans]: Script run-time error
[13:49] X-LANG 3.0: [script:trans]: Stack-Heap Collision
[13:49] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: before she fell over, my colleague was fretting about the collision in here.
[13:49] Cati Capalini: ok
[13:50] Kahiro Watanabe: But the more important is: Limit Stuff: Agents and scripts
[13:50] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I need to tell her to stop being so overly concerned about things.
[13:50] Cube Republic: the emotional investments which people have in their Sl homes and Sl lives is quite amazing
[13:50] Infinity Linden: @Femina.. looks like you like the idea of an opensim.. you don't want to be forced into buying a regular sim
[13:50] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: it has to be.
[13:50] Cube Republic: dont ruin it
[13:50] Infinity Linden: s/opensim/open space sim/
[13:50] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: the last time i checked the average sexgen bed in full use runs at 0.5-0.6 ms script time
[13:50] Femina Matahari: no infinity I have 10 full sims
[13:50] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: there is an inherent silliness in the fact that we insist on virtual beds, virtual houses, and even virtual sex.
[13:50] Teravus Ousley: yep.. 'open space sim'
[13:51] Jensen Kranfel: we need a rollback on prices
[13:51] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: and yet... it has its comforting...
[13:51] Femina Matahari: I dont want to have to buy 2 more open sims
[13:51] Infinity Linden: @Kahiro... yup.. grandfathering is on thee list of "non-technical" solutions
[13:51] Lady Sakai: we need to have at least one full to own OS
[13:51] Taff Nouvelle: one physical sailboat is harder on the CPU than a house and a bed
[13:51] Infinity Linden: (well.. it is now)
[13:51] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: the key question is that from the side of the people supplying the lindens, can they support such a move too?
[13:51] Femina Matahari: my manager lives on one and I live on the other
[13:51] Alliez Mysterio: I think communication is the key and we dont seem to have it
[13:51] Layla Fiertze: agree
[13:51] Femina Matahari: i dont want to have to buy 2 more
[13:51] Cati Capalini: yes
[13:51] Jackson Rickenbacker: those words grandfathering is sweet music to me
[13:51] Cati Capalini: i agree with Alliez
[13:51] Femina Matahari: to make it up to 4
[13:51] Phillip Vought: and for gods sake get M linden to say something on this.. I have panic in my renter population..
[13:51] Taff Nouvelle: there has been no communication for months
[13:52] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Taff is apparently a man who enjoys shouting "off my lawn" at young people.
[13:52] BarronessSaphire Hausmann: i would agree that a physical sail boat is harsh on a sim... it generates lots of physics and script calls
[13:52] Alliez Mysterio: None at all we just get hit out of the blue
[13:52] Pippen Sonnenblume: Our residents are looking at bailing...
[13:52] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: SL was built on communication.
[13:52] Pippen Sonnenblume: we can't continue to sustain that kind of onslaught
[13:52] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: to turn away from it, I was taught, invites failre.
[13:52] Taff Nouvelle: SL IS communication :-)
[13:52] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: It's also a good place to hide my favorite snug mattress and bag of kibble.
[13:52] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: Woozl.
[13:53] Rex Cronon: greeting
[13:53] Phillip Vought: SL is what america was just prior to the war of independence.. (which we brits LET you win BTW :P)
[13:53] Infinity Linden: @Phillip... okay... i'll ping my SF minions... i hear ya... you wanna hear smoething from the exec staff
[13:53] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: suuuure, Phillip.
[13:53] Rex Cronon: gritings*
[13:53] Alliez Mysterio: Well must be my fault Im not getting any
[13:53] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: that was the gist of it.
[13:53] Eastland Newall: interesting that a sailboat is script heavy but that is what open sims are supposed to be for
[13:53] Femina Matahari: yes infinity
[13:53] FWord Utorid: this is the end, no one will ever log on to the internet ever again
[13:53] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: hopefully, a solution can be found that maximises resident happiness.
[13:53] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: In other words, someone stop FWord, he's running away with my "Village Idiot" title.
[13:53] Aminom Marvin: Phillip: it is very fitting that the openspace JIRA, [5] has the number 1776. That is the year the American revolution started :)
[13:54] Phillip Vought: infinity.. if this is a minion overstepping his perogatives then M can solve it.. if not .. then M can use pr speak to calm the savage beasts
[13:54] Infinity Linden: @Pippen... i hear you... i'll make sure M, Jack, et al get a summary and the transcript of this meeting
[13:54] Kahiro Watanabe: Thanks Infinity.
[13:54] Pippen Sonnenblume: ty Infinity
[13:54] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: without FWord pleasse. he makes me look good.
[13:54] Alliez Mysterio: I am more than willing to work with anyone as I think most of us are but give us a clue, please
[13:54] Eastland Newall: hehe
[13:54] Aminom Marvin: now that JIRA is at 642 votes. 150 votes added since the start of this discussion!
[13:54] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: I'm not supposed to look good. it's not in my contract.
[13:54] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: 1776.
[13:54] River Ely: a summary will be posted on my blog minutes after we leave, I assure you
[13:54] Jensen Kranfel: we can help u find defaulting sim owners
[13:54] Phillip Vought: Aminom.. I'm voting for that just BECAUSE its 1776 :)
[13:54] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: woah.
[13:54] Infinity Linden: @everyone... wow.. it got late fast
[13:55] Jensen Kranfel: i already have 2 names in my list
[13:55] FWord Utorid: please deposit 25 cents to continue.
[13:55] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: We appreciate the extra time you took to try to untangle this Gordian knot.
[13:55] Alliez Mysterio: heres .50
[13:55] Kahiro Watanabe: Thanks
[13:55] Infinity Linden: i gotta run to another meetign... let me just say thanks everynoe... we kept it pretty positive... i appreciate that
[13:55] Alliez Mysterio: lol
[13:55] Jensen Kranfel: so whats teh decisions
[13:55] Teravus Ousley: yep, this is just about the regular end of this meeting.
[13:55] Phillip Vought: Congrats on surving infinity :)
[13:55] FWord Utorid: ok. we're having a protest afterparty in open space sims throughout the grid
[13:55] Phillip Vought: That'll cost you one bear please :)
[13:55] Kahiro Watanabe: See you.
[13:55] Infinity Linden: i know there's a lot of feelings about this issue
[13:55] Lady Sakai: Flips Fword a shiny dollar
[13:55] Chaley May: bye infinity
[13:55] FWord Utorid: bring your mega hair
[13:55] Rex Cronon: bye
[13:55] Christo Larsen: THANK YOU INFINITY!
[13:55] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: There are yes.
[13:56] Infinity Linden: and i hate to say it, but, io don't think the solutions are gonna come overnight
[13:56] FWord Utorid: tc infinity. you are a business ninja
[13:56] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: but they are an extension of the hopes and dreams so many of us have.
[13:56] Infinity Linden: me?
[13:56] Infinity Linden: lol fword
[13:56] FWord Utorid: ;)
[13:56] Christo Larsen: remembers the frog he has buried on one of his open sims and sobs....
[13:56] Alliez Mysterio: We are used to waiting
[13:56] TheWorldOf Tomorrow: thanks for the help.
[13:56] Twistit Saiman: Seeyou Infinity, held yourself well ;)
[13:56] Cati Capalini: thnks
[13:56] Jensen Kranfel: my friend has closed her sims
[13:56] Alliez Mysterio: Appreciate your time, Infinity
[13:56] Jensen Kranfel: she pays 11000US$ a month to u lindens
[13:56] Alexandra Kavanagh: will there be any solutions? @infinitly
[13:56] Infinity Linden: again... thanks... we'll get through this...
[13:56] Alexandra Kavanagh: or only price hikes?
[13:57] Infinity Linden: now.. if you'll pardno me... i'm gonna try to track down our execs

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 28

Navigation menu

Search