Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-09

08:00	Cummere Mayo	oz... you should try out this dev build of firestorm
	Tomkin Euler	what's your readc Cummere?
	Oz Linden	Hi everyone
	FERRET	hiya
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
	Tomkin Euler	doesn't crash like the last one for me..
08:01	Twisted Laws	Hi
	Oz Linden	I'm hoping to get some time to do TPV surfing tomorrow, in fact
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	hiya tech ㋡
	Cummere Mayo	the ability to lose the sidebar, the tabs instead of accordians.... this has some nice features we should ask them for
		tomkin i can still crash it regularly, but they are getting there
08:02		media filter is sooo nice though
		hints to oz
	Wolfpup	hey oz
	Techwolf Lupindo	HI all
	Cummere Mayo	meeeeeeeeee deeeeeee ahhhhhhhh filllllllllllllll terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
08:03	Techwolf Lupindo	LOL
	Oz Linden	Let's do the item someone put on the agenda first (adding more now is fine, but add at the end)
		https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2820?
	JIRA-helper	SVC-2820 Allow group IMs to be muted
	Jonathan	That was my item; it is semi-misfiled and should be considered a vwr (see final comments)
08:04	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	that would be nice...
	Jonathan	I expanded this new feature request to encompass muting all aspects of 1 group
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	mute the MM groups, but still get the notices
	Techwolf Lupindo	I orinally though when closing a group IM that it was sienced for 30 minutes. With the viewer getting more stable, that closing a group sience it forever is going to be somewhat a problem. I like to have a delay timer of some sort.
	Oz Linden	As you've heard, there is a big rewrite of group chat in progress
08:05	Jonathan	Is muting a group part of that effort?
	Oz Linden	As a part of that, the team doing it is now doing a broader look at what other related changes should be made.
		I'll point this one out to them (I know they have something very much like it on thier list)
08:06	Jonathan	I'd consider this work about 95%% done; there might be a minor issue with how muting voice works, plus a menu tweak
	Techwolf Lupindo	What is the best place to submitte feedback for group chat related stuff?
08:07	Jonathan	Even if it is not taken up it was a good programming exercise
	Cummere Mayo	gez was supposedly gonna have a usergroup for us
	Oz Linden	Gez is planning to open a new user group for chat-related issues soon
		There'll be a blog post or something I'm sure
	TriloByte Zanzibar	From what I can gather, they're running a little behind. The xmpp project viewer is showing up, but they haven't started with groups or active testing yet
	Oz Linden	I have not heard any dates on that yet
08:08	TriloByte Zanzibar	Oz, FJ had made the hard commitment to having it on the main grid by March 31
	Jonathan	The xmpp people ran into a little technical issue--they were using aditi but needed their own grid
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I expect that will slip by a couple weeks
08:09	Oz Linden	what can I tell you ...
	Jonathan	If you want better news about xmpp go to the Beta UG with Oskar
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, I'm hoping to be able to make their meeting tomorrow
	Cummere Mayo	anyways one way or another we know these features are likely coming right oz?
08:10	Oz Linden	which, the chat stuff... yes, many group chat features are coming
		I think I'll avoid putting any dates after my name into the chat archive, though
	TriloByte Zanzibar	understandable :)
	FERRET	yerp nufin like watching a deadline fly by
	Techwolf Lupindo	:-)
	Cummere Mayo	if they dont get the xmpp stuff ready to go, it sounds like we have a patch alnost ready though :)
	Jonathan	The xmpp viewer code is public for anyone who is interested
08:11	Oz Linden	next topic... media filter
	Wolfpup	since we are on the subject of chat is anying one onlast nights build of Viewer Development?
08:12	Cummere Mayo	nope wolfpup....
	Twisted Laws	i am up to date with changes from last night...
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yes
	Cummere Mayo	with all the crap going on i switched to one with a media filter
	TriloByte Zanzibar	well, 223190
	Oz Linden	I have seen the contribution on this, but not yet had time to look closely at it or to raise the question of whether or not we can take it. It is, however, on my list.
	Wolfpup	those of you that are have you noticed the changes to the bottom bar?
	Twisted Laws	yes
	Cummere Mayo	oz, other departments already kinda committed us to taking it
08:13	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, I like it
	Oz Linden	send me mail privately Cummere with who that would have been
08:14		I personally don't object to it
	Joke Bubble	hi
	Techwolf Lupindo	Is there a master jira on it?
08:15	Oz Linden	the change to remove the 'hide url' checkboxes has been integrated and passed QA, so it will be in the next regular viewer release.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	is it removing both audio and media?
08:16	Oz Linden	it unmasks all parcel media urls, regardless of what type they are
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
08:17	Cummere Mayo	there is but tonya or jessica know it... I just know simone posted the orriginal patch and tonya tweaked it
		im looking for it now though
	Oz Linden	Tonya posted it somewhere (or said she would)... like I said, I've been tied up and have not looked for details
	Techwolf Lupindo	One exploit was closed. But I need to follow up on with LL.
08:19	Joke Bubble	mmm i have a question
	Oz Linden	on media urls, joke? if not, hold it please
	Joke Bubble	not about it sorry . ok im waiting .)
08:20	Oz Linden	next agenda item is #3 - Things to ask Firestorm for...
	Jonathan	add it to the agenda
	Oz Linden	kind of a broad topic
	TriloByte Zanzibar	agenda's here - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
	Techwolf Lupindo	Ah, I think it asking for what LL can get from firestorm for there viewer.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ill be submitting some translations im putting into firestrom to LL
08:21	Cummere Mayo	yes tech
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i set up my bitbucket account last night, havent pushed changes to it yet though
	Oz Linden	Can we be more specific?
	Cummere Mayo	i really want to see the media filter, end of accordians, ability kill the sidebar, and the chat bar on the floater
08:22		aside from the media filter those all fix long running complaints with v2
	Oz Linden	we talked about chat on the floater enough last week... I did finally get around to creating a jira issue on that this morning
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I think the optional ability to turn off the sidebar (just using bottom buttons) would make a lot of people happy
	Oz Linden	the sidebar too has been beaten almost to death, but I do like some of what FS has done there, and plan to bring that up
08:23	Wolfpup	Oz there are several Jiars concerning putting the chat history panel in the conversatins floater
	Cummere Mayo	they did that too
	Oz Linden	yes, but I don't want to discuss chat floaters today - at all
	Techwolf Lupindo	Oz, I think we need to beat it to death. ;-)
	Cummere Mayo	its kinda nice
		one last thing
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I agree Oz. Btw, here's a jira on making sidebar an option - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18471
	JIRA-helper	VWR-18471 Optional sidebar
08:24	Wolfpup	yes the side bar is nice but could use some more and better featurs
	Cummere Mayo	the radar
	Oz Linden	Thank you Trilobyte
		have not looked a the radar
	Techwolf Lupindo	Avatar List is bing worked on for firestorm. There is some alpha in there now.
		Avatar List is bing worked on for firestorm. There is some alpha code in there now.
08:25	Cummere Mayo	meh ill have to go through slu forum posts (all nearly 11500) for the jira number for the filter ... im not finding it
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	its basic right now, just displays more info on people listed in the nerby tab of the people sidebar
	Wolfpup	it would be nice if the nearby map was taler
	Cummere Mayo	its simlar to our nearby chat pre mini-map, but with age how long weve seen them and range
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Or resizable, Wolf. I'd like taller too, but I saw a couple posts on the community site from ppl with small screen laptops who think it's too big
08:26	Cummere Mayo	personally i think we could get by with just the range
	Twisted Laws	my radar that comes from is using layout-stack and layout-panels, thus its resizable Wolfpup
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Lee has range in the latest builds of Kirstens too I think
	Oz Linden	what use is having range?
	Wolfpup	do you have to edit the xml for this?
	Cummere Mayo	oz I cannot believe your asking that
		*sighs*
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	to know how far someone is (easier to see if they are in chat range, etc)
	Jonathan	I use range all the time
08:27	Oz Linden	I just don't know... teach me
	Wolfpup	range sows you how far away the are from you
	Twisted Laws	i change the range very often in here... depends on what a person is doing.
	Cummere Mayo	determinining placement of stuff, if people are in chat or shout range
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Great when socializing (clubs/dances) or when tending to a busy store full of customers
	Twisted Laws	riding trains, you want a shorter draw distance, in a sandbox you want longer draw distance
	Jonathan	Let's say I have arrived in the wrong place -- I can see how far away the group I am trying to find is and in what direction
	Cummere Mayo	that too
	FERRET	is handy to know if your walking towards or away from someone for starters
08:28	Oz Linden	doesn't highlighting them on the minimap (which we already have) effectively do most of that?
	FERRET	knowlege is ability oz i woulda thought u knew that :P
	Cummere Mayo	if theres lots of avatars, minimap, even the one in the nearby pannel get overloaded
		no oz
	Tomkin Euler	gives feedback on which zoom range you're on.. far, or medium for instance..
	Cummere Mayo	some but not near enough
	Oz Linden	yes, Ferret, but cluttering the display also confuses new users
	Jonathan	The minimap might be at a closer scale...and we do not all have a mouse wheel to adjust it
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	oh cant build here, dang
08:29	Cummere Mayo	it really doesnt clutter it to add range
	TriloByte Zanzibar	that's worked fairly well, though depending on zoom it's tough to know how far away the dot is
	Cummere Mayo	and minimap just doesnt give a numeric value. and its hard to tell if someone is 85 meters away or 105 meters away
08:30	FERRET	oh idea...instead of disposing of the sidebar totally why not shrink it to a block next to the talk button or something
	Tomkin Euler	other visual cue to zoom range? different color tone on background?
	Jonathan	You could have range rings on the mini-map
		(optional)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	look at me, getting better at searching the jira.. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18078
	JIRA-helper	VWR-18078 Add distance information to nearby avatar list
	Oz Linden	I was just going to ask that Jonathan...
	Techwolf Lupindo	A range bar/sliders can give a clue as to zoom level. So one can easly tell the differnce if that dot is close by or very far away.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/tank_master/Second%%20Life/aniuperror.png thats what the nearby tab looks like currently
08:31		agg
	Techwolf Lupindo	A range bar/sliders can give a visule clue as to zoom level. So one can easly tell the differnce if that dot is close by or very far away.
	Oz Linden	would chat and shout range rings on the map be useful?
	TheBlack Box	the whole tab could have *fill in anything that radar-HUDs have*
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/tank_master/Second%%20Life/nearby.png
	Cummere Mayo	yes but not as useful as adding a range colum
	Jonathan	I think you'd want something additional between shout and chat range -- use of colors would help here
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	there
08:32	Techwolf Lupindo	Oz, good idea. That can server both visulau clue to zoom and convey information about chat range.
	Oz Linden	numbers don't help new users ... they don't know what they mean, really
	Joke Bubble	but they will learn
	Cummere Mayo	yould be surprised
08:33	Joke Bubble	second life is already so strange for newbies
		:)
	FERRET	which is why we scale closest to the top of the list :)
	Twisted Laws	would be nice imho to use highlighting in avatar_list to indicate chat range...
	Cummere Mayo	its not common but i do get asked how can you tell how far away someone is by new people
	Twisted Laws	subdued if out of chat range, bright if in chat range
	Wolfpup	if you had them colored and a key char at the bottom it wout be easy that way
	TriloByte Zanzibar	"how far away is he?" "he's blue" seems like an odd answer
08:34	Wolfpup	twisted it would need three levels
	Techwolf Lupindo	Twisted, it allready does that in Phoenix, the distance number go from black to grey for chat range.
	Oz Linden	using color has accessibility issues too
	Twisted Laws	i have a patch that can show range on hover in avatar_lists...
		that way there is no increased lag
	TriloByte Zanzibar	showing on hover would be great
	Oz Linden	do existing radars account for the vertical distance too?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	+1 for that, Twisted
	Wolfpup	then mabey a seperation marker
	Techwolf Lupindo	Oz, yes.
	FERRET	yeh but their way off
08:35	Cummere Mayo	yes
	Techwolf Lupindo	But there is the 1024 bug.
	Jonathan	Oz, they show altitude unless you are over a certain height, then there can be issues
	Oz Linden	what good is a number that's not correct?
	FERRET	it works if your up high measing down tho
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the one in kirstensviewer does, but I think it becomes ineffective beyond a fairly short range
	FERRET	measuring even
	Cummere Mayo	they are messed up if you go above 1024 meters but thats a issue with the server thats being fixed
	Techwolf Lupindo	Phoenix uses a bridge LSL scipt to get the correct nuimbers.
08:36	TheBlack Box	while we are speaking about radar .... the UUID-addressable SL-map-textures .... can we count on its ongoing existance
		?
	Twisted Laws	btw... STORM-954 .. the wrong code got put in viewer-development (was the first patch, not the second)
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-954 STORM-954 SL-viewer 2.0 No nearby people when over approximately 1000 meters
	Oz Linden	let's put that on the end of the Agenda, please BlackBox
	TheBlack Box	kk
08:37	Oz Linden	Twisted - please reopen the issue and put in a correct hg repo pointer to fix it
	Twisted Laws	https://codereview.secondlife.com/r/132/
	Oz Linden	I'll make a point to look at radar in TPVs before our next meeting, and we can discuss that again
08:38	Cummere Mayo	cool ty oz
	Oz Linden	#4 Windlight status
		which status are we talking about?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, Q mentioned some code was coming in last week
	Jonathan	Oz, these build in radars save server load as they use data already sent to the viewer
	Oz Linden	(people should put their names on agenda items, I think)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the ability to set estate/parcel level windlight
	Cummere Mayo	chuckles and smacks whoever split up her three topics lol
	FERRET	shader code hopefully
08:39	TriloByte Zanzibar	(Sorry Oz, that was me)
	Oz Linden	Ah... Estate settings
		There is some code that's partly working in an internal repo
		I hope to get someone on finishing it up soon, but no dates
08:40		currently, it reads settings from the server correctly, but changing them is not finished
08:41	TriloByte Zanzibar	k, thanks. that one has been the most asked-about item in the rp communities that I hear from
	Oz Linden	yes, I want that one too... wait 'til you see Hippotropolis once I can play with those :-)
08:42	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	lol
	TriloByte Zanzibar	hehe
	Oz Linden	#5 Plans for Snowstorm....
	Cummere Mayo	if you play with hippo can i play with denby? lol
	Oz Linden	Snowstorm still exists ...
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	its only region level though, right? not parcle level?
08:43	Techwolf Lupindo	There is windlight support in TPV, just need to add some code to the parcel discription. But hopefully LL windlight will be better. :-)
	Oz Linden	that's right, it's Region level (even though it is called Estate level)
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
08:44	Twisted Laws	who is taking Q's place?
08:45	Joke Bubble	may i ask who is q ? o.o
	Oz Linden	For now, I'm running Snowstorm on my own
08:46	FERRET	actual snowstorm or V2?
	Cummere Mayo	q was a linden at LL for a long time, for a while he was in charge of snowstorm. he just recently left LL
	Oz Linden	I'm talking to my boss about how to evolve things... still not fully resolved, but so far I'm likeing how it's going
	TriloByte Zanzibar	that's good to hear
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	good ㋡
08:47	Techwolf Lupindo	Good. I wish yoiu good luck on that fronter Oz.
	Oz Linden	I'll share the outcomes when they are really finished
	Techwolf Lupindo	:-)
	Tomkin Euler	Is there an internal, non-open viewer development, in addition to snowstorm development? <pardon my ignorance..>
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yes, Tomkin, there are a few teams involved in viewer development
08:48	Tomkin Euler	o.. thanks..
	Oz Linden	The public viewer-development repo is the main integration repo for all viewer work, Tomkin
	Cummere Mayo	any hope that we will get some new lindens on the team full time? we're still half what we started with effectively
	Oz Linden	there are private forks for new work we're not ready to talk about yet
		That is among the topics with my boss, Cummere
08:49	FERRET	bring out the mesh!
	Cummere Mayo	cool. if you need resi's to help make the case let us know
	Oz Linden	mesh is already public, just not yet integrated
		ok... next topic - Joke Bubble has waited patiently
		what was your question?
	Joke Bubble	i forgot.
	Techwolf Lupindo	:-)
	Oz Linden	oops
08:50	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	doh
	Liisa Runo	map texture UUID's
	Wolfpup	lestat there are issues with trying to bring in mesh right now for one thing there is no open source for the decpm stuf
	Joke Bubble	i think it was silly thing sorry :/
	TriloByte Zanzibar	TBB also had a question too, I believe
	TheBlack Box	map texture UUID's was mine :)
	Oz Linden	yes, about map images, I think?
08:51	Joke Bubble	nop i want ask about zoom range
		:/
	Wolfpup	i have a 'sculpture' that shows about useing map uuid's
	TheBlack Box	some while ago there was talk about map-textures no longer being available via UUID ... cause the Viewer didnt use them anymore i think for its map ... but A LOT of SL content uses them
		since then those textures remained available ... but without a final word about them
		i think
	Oz Linden	the canonical reference for mapping is https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Map_API
08:52		If you have a question not covered there, I can try to get an answer
08:53	TheBlack Box	Map API is for usage in websites right ?
		i am talking about in-world content
		Radar-systems for example ... HUDs and other
	Oz Linden	the map api provides urls... urls can be used in-world too
08:55	TriloByte Zanzibar	Oz, would you know who (or what team) to reach out to about map UUID's?
	TheBlack Box	i will read into it more ... but the question remains ... for old content that still uses those UUIDs
	Oz Linden	If you'd like, write me an email describing the usage you're concerned about, and I'll get someone to provide clarification of what you can expect.
	Techwolf Lupindo	urls in world need MOAP support to display. UUID are displayed on object without MOAP support.
08:56	Oz Linden	Well, then viewers better implement MOAP
	Techwolf Lupindo	Oz, the media filter.
	TheBlack Box	moap is a freakin security nightmare
	Techwolf Lupindo	enough said on that.
	Oz Linden	not if the urls are coming from Linden servers.
	Liisa Runo	all user friendly navigating systems for boats and planes use region maps on prim surfaces. And giant pile of other content use those too, i really hope they will stay. MOAP is not alternative to this with all the problems it have
08:57	Wolfpup	Oz that object i just sent you shows how map uuid's are used
	Oz Linden	Please use email as well
	TheBlack Box	and the question remains for old content ... switching to moap maps would need updating on the content ...
	Techwolf Lupindo	Why require webkit broswer just to display a textrue in world? (me shuts up for now.)
08:58	Oz Linden	I understand that there is a question, but not enough yet to get an answer, so send me that email spelling it all out carefully. That's all I can do now.
08:59		Joke... you had a question about zoom?
	Joke Bubble	yes
	TheBlack Box	very specifically this UUID-question is a bit of a burden on many content-creators that would like to sell things using those UUID's .. and not many of them will appreciate a moap-based alternative really
	Joke Bubble	about zoom range
	Wolfpup	Oz if you rez that sculptuer i just sen you and look @ the script inside you will understand the usage of map image uuid's
	TheBlack Box	getting experienced SL-users to swithc to v2 viewer is still a lot of work to be done ;)
	Oz Linden	we're done w/ map images, folks
09:00		what's your question about zoom range?
	Joke Bubble	its very short
	Oz Linden	the zoom range, or the question ?
		hates pronouns
	Joke Bubble	zoom range:))
	Tomkin Euler	yes..
09:01		yearns for a mouse wheel..
	Wolfpup	Joke i think zoom range depends on how your draw distance is set
	Oz Linden	sorry... I don't understand the question
	FERRET	imprudence...look in settings
	Joke Bubble	its same at viewer 2 too :/
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i think he want to know if its possible to make it so the rang you can toom out to is farther
09:02	Wolfpup	greater draw distance = greater zoom range
	Twisted Laws	Joke, you may need to open Advanced menu, and turn on Disable Camera Constraints
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	a lot of TPVs have done this
	Twisted Laws	and turn off Limit Select Distance
09:03	Joke Bubble	thanks :)
	Oz Linden	ok... our time is up today... thanks for coming everyone
	Cummere Mayo	ty oz for hosing
		so when is acceptable to start bringing pitchforks again?
09:04	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thx Oz
	Cummere Mayo	.me giggles
		*hosting
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	appriciate the updates