User:CG Linden/2009-01-13

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Transcript of CG Linden's office hours:

[8:07] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. Good Morning
[8:07] HALEY Salomon: ... ?
[8:07] CG Linden: . Hello fokks :)
[8:08] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. may I ask did we break the Concurerency record last weekend
[8:08] CG Linden: . Yes we did - 80,500 or such
[8:08] Aargle Zymurgy: .... Yay!
[8:09] Lamorna Proctor: ..... Morning CG! It only seems a few hours ago we were talking. I hope you slept well :)
[8:09] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. hiya Aargle
[8:09] CG Linden: . yep
[8:09] Aargle Zymurgy: .... hi everyone. one moment. relogging
[8:09] CG Linden: . Helllo there Ellla :)
[8:11] CG Linden: . Hello :)
[8:11] Amber DeCuir: ...... Hi
[8:11] HALEY Salomon: ... HI
[8:11] Ellla McMahon: ....... Morning CG :)) everyone :))
[8:11] Aargle Zymurgy: .... oh, I've got a new video card in my computer.... I get a notice from the client saying it's unknown, but WOW... it's nice. SL is running dramatically better.
[8:11] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:11] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. hi Ellla
[8:12] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. what Make and Modle Aargle
[8:12] CG Linden: . ah yes, always fun - I remember when I got my 24" imac last year
[8:12] Aargle Zymurgy: .... Nvidia GeForce 9500
[8:12] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. oh ya
[8:12] Aargle Zymurgy: .... 1G on-board video.
[8:12] CG Linden: . ok.... let's get going, but just a sec...
[8:13] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. 178 driver
[8:13] Aargle Zymurgy: .... with a new viewsonic wide-screeen monitor. makes SL development much nicer.
[8:13] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:13] CG Linden wished SL supported dual Monitors
[8:13] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:13] Amber DeCuir: ...... what is jeffbot please?
[8:14] CG Linden: . oh, long story about the name... but it's a device that translates jira numbers into urls
[8:14] Amber DeCuir: ...... OK
[8:14] Amber DeCuir: ...... automatically?
[8:14] CG Linden: . for example: VWR-3871 will be mostly fixed in 1.22 RC6
[8:14] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:15] Lamorna Proctor: ..... nice
[8:15] CG Linden: . ok, so on the chart here, you see the viewer crash rates
[8:15] HALEY Salomon: ... ok
[8:15] CG Linden: . and the RC went under 10% for the first time ever...
[8:15] Lamorna Proctor worries slightly about the word "mostly"
[8:16] Close Range: ......... McCabe Maxsted [39m]
[8:16] CG Linden: . still, 10% is not really much to boast about :(
[8:16] CG Linden: . but it is definitively an improvement
[8:17] CG Linden: . so expect RC6 tomorrow evening ...
[8:17] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. the RC still crashes me
[8:17] Lamorna Proctor smiles
[8:17] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. so I gave up on it
[8:17] Close Range: ......... filippo Halsey [37m]
[8:17] HALEY Salomon: ... what new stuff is in it
[8:17] CG Linden: . I assume you have filed a PJIRA?
[8:17] Close Range: ......... filippo Halsey [34m]
[8:18] CG Linden: . not much featurewise, mainly stability fixes.
[8:18] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. dont know how to do that yet
[8:18] CG Linden: . let me check....
[8:18] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. I am going to Bug Triage to learn
[8:18] Aargle Zymurgy: .... you know, CG, one of these days you'll mention a problem in SL to one of us and we're going to ask you if you filed a pjira. :-)
[8:18] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:18] McCabe Maxsted: .......... haha
[8:18] Amber DeCuir: ...... LOL
[8:18] HALEY Salomon: ... ha
[8:19] McCabe Maxsted: .......... XLR unless you can find a way to reproduce it, don't bother filing. It'll just get ignored then resolved as "cannot reproduce"
[8:19] McCabe Maxsted: .......... or "needs more info" six months from now
[8:19] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. it is fairly consistant
[8:20] CG Linden: . well, McCabe, if you don't file it, you guarantee that it won't be looked at :)
[8:20] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. but dont know what else to report other than my enviroment
[8:20] CG Linden: . also, we do get the crash report, so it may not be necessary to file a PJIRA.
[8:20] McCabe Maxsted: .......... and having been on the PJIRA since the first issue filing, I can guarantee you it won't be considered without a repro ;)
[8:20] CG Linden: . but it does seem that the "average: here on the chart is misleading
[8:21] Aargle Zymurgy: .... well, some are very tough to reproduce... such as I reported devices of mine randomly losing debit permissions. I mean, how DO you report that?
[8:21] CG Linden: . it does seem that it crashes very often for some configurations, and hardly ever on most others
[8:21] CG Linden can't remember his last viewer crash
[8:22] Amber DeCuir: ...... O_O
[8:22] HALEY Salomon: ... i dont crash
[8:22] Lamorna Proctor: ..... for me, it was only this morning... getting stuck in the "initializing multimedia" bit when logging in. It happens one in 3 tries to me
[8:22] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. when I have 3 clients all on RC they will all crash together
[8:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. and no crash logger
[8:23] Aargle Zymurgy: .... I rarely have a viewer crash.... even the Mac never had a viewer crash... it was just the whole OS locking up from my (obviously defective) video card
[8:24] CG Linden: . yep, as I said, 1.22 is mainly bug fixes and stabiklization.
[8:24] CG Linden: . VWR-11312: Microphone volume isn't saved upon relog
[8:24] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:25] CG Linden: . VWR-10606: Clicking on Script Error icon does not open
[8:25] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:25] CG Linden: . VWR-11433: leak/crash in particle system
[8:25] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:25] CG Linden: . VWR-11044: Incorrect picking on right-click
[8:25] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:25] CG Linden: . VWR-11341: 1.22 raycasting: Selecting a prim inside another prim is impossible
[8:25] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:26] CG Linden: . VWR-7331: llMapDestination can't TP to Skybox over 1000n
[8:26] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:26] CG Linden: . and various stuff like that
[8:26] Ellla McMahon: ....... Lamona
[8:26] Amber DeCuir: ...... Sounds promising
[8:26] McCabe Maxsted: .......... random question: will there be any new capabilities in the next server update?
[8:27] CG Linden: . I think in my last office hours, I posted the 1.25 server release notes.
[8:27] CG Linden: . let me find them again
[8:27] McCabe Maxsted: .......... I looked through those
[8:28] McCabe Maxsted: ..........
[8:28] CG Linden: . well, then that's your answer right there :)
[8:28] McCabe Maxsted: .......... so no :P
[8:29] McCabe Maxsted: .......... there rae some vague entries there, like "Featurettes Batch #2 -- server-side support for many small changes and fixes to the viewer'
[8:29] CG Linden: . the main purpose of 1.25 is to set the stage for upgrading the actual OS version on which the simulators are running
[8:30] CG Linden: . "featurettes" is a term we use to designate small features that don't make major changes to the UI, but fix various annoyances and add a little chrome
[8:31] CG Linden: . for example, you may notice that your mini-map now shows your friends in yellow
[8:31] McCabe Maxsted nods. Those are a major interest of mine
[8:31] Lamorna Proctor likes featurettes, but dislikes buglets
[8:31] CG Linden: . also, in 1.22 RC, we changed the way you can turn beacons on or off.... that's really only useful if you're looking for lost items or trying to track down griefers
[8:32] Zen Zeddmore: ........... will it show your enemies in red soon?
[8:32] McCabe Maxsted: .......... (an opensource patch btw to reenable that)
[8:32] Amber DeCuir: ...... LOL Zen
[8:32] CG Linden: . many of the featurettes are based on contributed patches
[8:32] Lamorna Proctor: ..... actually, in all seriousness, red for people you have muted would be good
[8:33] McCabe Maxsted is more curious what featurettes are being supported so I know if I'm missing anything in my client
[8:33] CG Linden: . file a feautre request :)
[8:33] Amber DeCuir: ...... I dont have any muted people
[8:33] Zen Zeddmore: ........... I want to thank who ever was responsible for the new LSL functions for XY coordinates on prims faces. I've been making excellent use of it.
[8:33] McCabe Maxsted: .......... thank qarl, zen
[8:33] Lamorna Proctor: ..... you're not the only one, Zen :)
[8:33] CG Linden: . that would be Qarl, mainly :)
[8:33] HALEY Salomon: ... NOPE no muted people for me also
[8:34] CG Linden: . in 1.23 we'll be adding a very nice featurette
[8:34] CG Linden: . with it, you can make mass permission changes on selected objects and their contents
[8:34] Zen Zeddmore: ........... I just finished an interactive 'builder menu' Panel system with laser pointer.
[8:34] Lamorna Proctor: ..... oooh, very powerful, and very easy to automate a huge cock-up :)
[8:34] CG Linden: . another example of a featurette is the reworked terraform controls
[8:35] Amber DeCuir: ...... Are they ever going to do an undo button?
[8:35] McCabe Maxsted grins. You can do both of those now with Imprudence 1.0
[8:35] Lamorna Proctor: ..... I want a DWIM button
[8:35] CG Linden: . both of what?
[8:35] McCabe Maxsted: .......... mass permission change, improved land tools
[8:36] CG Linden: . mass permission change is based on a contributed patch, so yes, that would make sense
[8:36] Close Range: ......... Adie Piers [28m]
[8:37] CG Linden: . ok, so, this week, we are planning on doing the pilot roll for 1.25
[8:37] Aargle Zymurgy catches back up after being distracted by a phone call.
[8:37] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. what is the confidence level for that
[8:38] Aargle Zymurgy: .... that's very cool... I have had issues with getting permissions fixed.
[8:38] Zen Zeddmore: ........... ooo permissions really get me rilled. I try to set my stuff to be free to give away and without an alt i can't tell for the lif of me weather i've tagged everything or not.
[8:38] Close Range: ......... Adie Piers [29m]
[8:38] CG Linden: . in 1.23, you'll be able to do this more reliably, and you'll also be able to set a default permission
[8:39] Zen Zeddmore: ........... maybe it could be done in the 'inspect window. At least you'd know which item is wrong.
[8:39] Zen Zeddmore: ........... or in a debug mode
[8:40] Zen Zeddmore: ........... where different perms are different colors
[8:40] Gellan Glenelg: ............ zen, selecting Advanced, Debug Permissions might help - see for details of how to read them
[8:41] CG Linden: . well, the trouble is you still need to select the individual items, and then you need to check their contents
[8:41] CG Linden: . and the interaction between object content and the permissions of the container are complicated
[8:41] Gellan Glenelg: ............ "F: Full or Folded permissions. The permissions of the object as a whole including all permissions of the objects contents. "
[8:42] CG Linden: . yes, but how those get set, and when these get recomputed is complicated
[8:43] CG Linden: . and then there are some well meant but unfortunate design decisions that cause some unintended consequences
[8:43] Aargle Zymurgy: .... programmers don't do things with un-intended consequences, do they? :-)
[8:43] CG Linden: . for example, if you select an object to be no-copy, it will automatically be made transferable
[8:44] CG Linden: . the idea was to enforce a "fair use" style system where you can't create a single "no perms at all" object
[8:44] Aargle Zymurgy still wants no-copy/no-tans objects.
[8:44] CG Linden: . but in effect, you can't do that for containers
[8:45] CG Linden: . since a container may contain both kinds
[8:45] CG Linden: . but it is possible for a creator to accidentally create a transferable container with no transfer objects
[8:46] Zen Zeddmore: ........... i want things that i've set to be free to remain free. not marked up for sale to unsuspecting newbies.
[8:46] CG Linden: . make them no transfer then
[8:46] CG Linden: . no transfer, no resale
[8:47] Zen Zeddmore: ........... the it does get the same saturation
[8:47] Zen Zeddmore: ........... people should be able to transfer free copies too
[8:47] McCabe Maxsted has always found that interesting, how freebies are, to use a licensing analogy, BSD rather than GPL; it'd be interesting to see what a "next owner cannot change permissions" flag would do to the economy
[8:47] Aargle Zymurgy nods @ McCabe
[8:47] CG Linden: . probably not much
[8:48] Aargle Zymurgy: .... I had my things marked no-mod and re-sold leaving the new buyer with somehting un-configurable.
[8:48] CG Linden: . but yeah
[8:49] Zen Zeddmore: ........... The thing is many newbs are already hard pressed for L$ i hate to see them being wasted on stuff that's MEANT to be free.
[8:49] Aargle Zymurgy: .... well, it's happened to non-noobs, too.
[8:50] McCabe Maxsted: .......... yeah. I see freebie scripts sold all the time
[8:51] Zen Zeddmore: ........... In the long run it discourages buying as burned buyers become VERY wary of what they purchase after seeing something they've wasted 30 hours in a camping char to buy somewhere else for free.
[8:51] CG Linden: . but shouldn't they be wary of what they purchase in an environment like this?
[8:51] Aargle Zymurgy: .... I'm glad I never put a mod script out for public consumption. I can't imagine how many viruses would have been created using one.
[8:52] Khala Dawes: ............. It seems to me, the saying "buyer beware" applies here, too
[8:52] CG Linden: . One could argue, just for arguments sake, that it is better they learn this at the L$50 level than at the L$5000 level
[8:52] Aargle Zymurgy grins
[8:52] McCabe Maxsted: .......... you'd think, and if it were reality I'd agree, but because this is a digital anonymous environment, instant trust is required to create communities
[8:53] CG Linden: . I disagree with the "instant"
[8:53] Khala Dawes: ............. trust is indeed a requirement for a healthy community
[8:53] Amber DeCuir: ...... But it's real people and unfortunately not all are trustworthy
[8:53] Khala Dawes: ............. but not everyone is inherently honest, unfortunately
[8:53] McCabe Maxsted: .......... it's one of those pecuiliarities of online interractions, how trust is automatically granted
[8:53] Amber DeCuir: ...... Just as in that rl out there
[8:53] Zen Zeddmore: ........... I don't know what to say to that mentality CG. if you think it OK for stuff that was meant to be free for allways repackeged and sold and just pffft let the buyer beware. IDK why bother with any of it?
[8:54] CG Linden: . I think I am generally of a trusting nature, but if I'm about to go into a serious tansaction with someone, I don't think I'd go for it with someone I just chjatted for 10 minutes :)
[8:54] Khala Dawes: ............. isn't there a differenece between saying it's okay and saying that it's just the way it works?
[8:54] McCabe Maxsted: .......... yeah prolly not instant, but... there's a psychological term for this phenomenon that escapes me....
[8:54] McCabe Maxsted: .......... I think you lindens tend to forget that for we residents, SL™ is purely online, where as for you guys it's a mix of RL and SL
[8:54] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:55] Khala Dawes: ............. Whenever exchanging currency, of any kind, for goods, one should always be careful
[8:55] CG Linden: . as soon as real money is involved, it becomes RL
[8:55] Khala Dawes: ............. absolutely!
[8:55] McCabe Maxsted: .......... it doesn't feel that way, certainly
[8:55] CG Linden: . so saying "it's just a game" is an argukent that cuts both ways...
[8:56] McCabe Maxsted: .......... from a user's perspective, all interractions are virtual
[8:56] Khala Dawes: ............. But as soon as real $US are involved, you start paying more attention, right?
[8:56] Aargle Zymurgy: .... I find myself correcting new people who ask "what is this game about" and tell them it's not a game.
[8:57] CG Linden: . but the real problem is that the permission system is alredy a hugely complicated system. I mean I am now at LL for 19 months, and even though i am very interestd in the inventory and permissions system, and I think I know more than most about it, I cannot even begin to claim I understand it fully
[8:57] Aargle Zymurgy: .... "games have winners and losers...... here, we just have a lot of losers." :-)
[8:57] Amber DeCuir: ...... O_O speak for yourself!!!!
[8:57] CG Linden: . so any addition and change needs to be really though through...
[8:57] CG Linden: . thought through
[8:57] Amber DeCuir: ...... I don't feel a loser
[8:57] HALEY Salomon: ... i dont think so
[8:57] McCabe Maxsted: .......... well that depends on what $US means to you; if you see USD in everything here, than you approach SL™ far differently than I believe most of the population does, which is social interraction
[8:58] Khala Dawes: ............. You also have to be careful to not create essentially a police state within SL
[8:58] Jeffbot: https: ........ //
[8:58] HALEY Salomon: ... nope we are mostly WINNERS
[8:58] HALEY Salomon: ... OPS
[8:58] CG Linden: . the "fair use" code is a perfect example of a well intended feature that ended up creating bugs which cost some creators significant amounts of real money
[8:59] Aargle Zymurgy nods @ CG
[8:59] McCabe Maxsted: .......... out of curiosity: there's a pjira meta issue for changes to the permission system. Is that realistic?
[8:59] Khala Dawes: ............. It's a difficult balancing act between expecting appropriate and respectful behaviour from residents and protecting them from not-so-nice folks
[8:59] CG Linden: . well, we know we will need to make some changes to accomodate open grid stuff....
[9:00] Khala Dawes: ............. I don't envy you Lindens... ;o)
[9:00] Zen Zeddmore: ........... seconds that
[9:00] CG Linden: . FOr details on that discussion, I encourage you to join the Architecture Woring group
[9:01] CG Linden: . but among us, the permission system is viewed a little bit like the third rail of software development - anyone who gets too close gets zapped :)
[9:01] Zen Zeddmore: ........... i would like that the things i set up as freee to go would also be transferable across th open grid as well. Is omething like that in the works for perms?
[9:01] McCabe Maxsted: .......... hahaha
[9:01] McCabe Maxsted nods. That makes a lot of sense
[9:02] CG Linden: . Were figuring it out, nothing is decided at this point, Zen
[9:02] Zen Zeddmore: ........... I hope it's not a show stopper for getting interconnectivity.
[9:02] CG Linden: . so, a no resale flag will need to be looked at in various ways - for example: what happens if you link in a no-sale item, if you contain a no-resale item etc...
[9:03] CG Linden: . Zen, I think you should be hoping that it -is- a showstopper
[9:03] Zen Zeddmore: ........... Like the library iems. How 'proprietary are those in regards to opening such things up to ubuitous availability?
[9:03] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. I think Resell and Transfer need to be seperate
[9:03] CG Linden: . It can't possibly be a good thing to allow objects out of the grid prior to settling the permissions system, would it?
[9:04] CG Linden: . ah, talking of the devil, Hi Saijanai
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: .............. hey
[9:04] CG Linden: . maybe you have some new recruits here who are deadly interested in permissions and open grid stuff :)
[9:05] Zen Zeddmore: ........... afk
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: .............. ah, well, meeting this morning in 1/2 hour for AWG if anyone needs an invite
[9:05] McCabe Maxsted: .......... hehe, volunteer or victim?
[9:06] CG Linden: . yeah well, the library is another little nuisance we have... not sure you really -want- to know how that works :)
[9:07] CG Linden: . ok, so, anything else? - to summarize:
[9:07] CG Linden: . 1.22RC6 this week, hopefully tomorrow evening
[9:07] CG Linden: . 1.25 pilot roll tomorrow morning
[9:07] CG Linden: . that one's gonna be very interesting....
[9:07] CG Linden: . you've all heard about the one where you change the engines of an airplane in flight...
[9:07] Amber DeCuir: ...... holds on to her inventory!!!
[9:08] CG Linden: . I think it is safe to say that your inventory will be safe :) that;s about the only subsystem we're -not- touching :)
[9:08] McCabe Maxsted: .......... (is there going to be a list of regions for that one?)
[9:08] CG Linden: . I think Prospero has a list, yes
[9:08] CG Linden: . so everyone who volunteered will be on it
[9:08] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. you did this morning
[9:09] CG Linden: . if all goes well, we'll let the pilot roll sit and we'll observe if it behaves well
[9:09] CG Linden: . full roll next week then
[9:09] CG Linden: . and then we'll have all the fun in the world to get 1.26 ready
[9:09] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. confidence is low on that for me
[9:09] CG Linden: . I think it will work this time
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: .............. so you are getting 1.25 ready, eh?
[9:10] Aargle Zymurgy: .... "fun"? such a choice of words. :-)
[9:10] Aargle Zymurgy: .... but I'm looking forward to it, oddly enough :-)
[9:10] CG Linden: . we've found some really interesting issues, and the toolset that was built to find them will serve us well
[9:10] Close Range: ......... Aric Linden [34m]
[9:11] CG Linden: . but yeah, since 1.25 took longer than expected, we do have a backlock of stuff waiting to get rolled out in 1.26, and we're working on selecting which ones we'll let out...
[9:11] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. too many fixes in one roll
[9:11] CG Linden: . nothing's decided yet, but we've set up tip jars on our desks :)
[9:11] HALEY Salomon: ... ha
[9:12] Aargle Zymurgy: .... LOL
[9:12] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. ok bye all
[9:12] XLR8RRICK Hudson: .. back to work
[9:12] McCabe Maxsted: .......... take care xlr
[9:12] CG Linden: . ok, see you on Friday for Stump the Chumps :)
[9:12] Amber DeCuir: ...... save chat
[9:12] Gellan Glenelg: ............ thanks CG
[9:12] CG Linden: . thx
[9:12] Aargle Zymurgy: .... thanks again, CG