Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.11.22
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List of Speakers
| Andrew Linden | Falcon Linden | Fancy Detector |
| Flip Idlemind | Jonathan Yap | JoyofRLC Acker |
| Kadah Coba | Kelly Linden | Kitto Flora |
| Leonel Iceghost | Qie Niangao | Renae Daines |
| Sahkolihaa Contepomi | Simon Linden | Squirrel Wood |
| Vernes Veranes | Vincent Nacon |
Transcript
[12:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: hey Andrew.
[12:01] Andrew Linden: Hello
[12:01] Andrew Linden: Sorry I couldn't attend last Friday's meeting. I had to depart early.
[12:01] Andrew Linden: I'll try to publish those transcripts today.
[12:02] Andrew Linden: There will be no User Group meeting this Friday.
[12:02] Andrew Linden: All of us Linden's will be on vacation on Friday.
[12:03] Andrew Linden: So the news...
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I did send an email out for an update on enabling return of encroaching objects on mainland, but haven't received a reply yet.
[12:04] Kadah Coba: I don't remember seeing such an email...
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I also started to talk to others about the idea of exposing the world map tiles via more predictable locations (via http)
[12:05] Andrew Linden: however I realized I've forgotten some of the details of how the system currently works
[12:05] Andrew Linden: and was therefore having trouble explaining to the others how it should be *different*
[12:06] Andrew Linden: so I was hoping someone here could refresh my memory on how the tiles are currently available and what would be the most ideal way to access them.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Finally, I'll mention now before I forget...
[12:07] Andrew Linden: The region Sardar was eventually moved to LeTigre last week, but they requested that it move back to Magnum yesterday.
[12:07] Andrew Linden: I hear that the weapons were breaking in new ways. I was hoping someone who knows more about it might be here to give me some more details.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: end of news and my own agenda items
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Regarding the map tiles...
[12:08] Andrew Linden: There were requests to make the map tiles downloadable via more predictable names, something like:
[12:09] Andrew Linden: maps.secondlife.com/gridx_gridy_lod.jpg ?
[12:09] Andrew Linden: where (gridx, gridy) = location of region in the grid
[12:10] Andrew Linden: and lod would be the level-of-detail of the tile
[12:10] Qie Niangao: so... I thought the issue was with the in-world textures corresponding to the maps, currently accessed through an external server. (or maybe that was a different issue?)
[12:10] Kadah Coba: I think that would work, but I have no use for such a thing :P
[12:11] Qie Niangao: AFAIK, the MapAPI already supplies jpgs at findable locations, via http
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Oh hrm. What that the issue? The desire for the in-world map textures to be guessable assets?
[12:11] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:12] Leonel Iceghost: any way you can make it an uuid to use from scripts?
[12:12] Flip Idlemind: I'd like that
[12:12] Simon Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Map_API_Introduction
[12:12] Simon Linden: (fwiw)
[12:12] Andrew Linden: well, suppose we designated region_id.texture as the location of that region's map tile...
[12:13] Andrew Linden: and suppose we updated that texture in the asset system
[12:13] Andrew Linden: that is, instead of just writing once we updated it dialy or on some schedule
[12:13] Andrew Linden: SL's texture asset system pipeline is designed to be cached at several stages
[12:14] Andrew Linden: so if you looked at that texture on Tuesday
[12:14] Andrew Linden: and they also looked on Wed or Thurs
[12:14] Andrew Linden: then the cache may not have updated
[12:14] Andrew Linden: and it is possible for that texture to be cached for a week or more
[12:15] Andrew Linden: depending on how it is used, and how well the variosu caches along the way are working
[12:15] Andrew Linden: That is, if you viewed that texture in your viewer daily... it may be that your viewer cache would keep it around indefinitely.
[12:16] Andrew Linden: oh hey, Kitto Flora is here. Long time no see.
[12:16] Andrew Linden: I think Simon had some news about SVC-22.
[12:16] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
[#SVC-22] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[12:16] Vincent Nacon: no more sailors?
[12:16] Vincent Nacon acrosses his fingers
[12:16] Kitto Flora came to ask about KeyframeAnimation
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I have an IRC link to jira updates and have been going nutty seeing so many comments about svc-7459. Could you look into that one (or, if you already are, mark the jira accordingly) please?
[12:16] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7459
[#SVC-7459] Drop In Traffic Calculations
[12:17] Simon Linden: well, there's a claim in SVC-22 that it's fixed
[12:17] Simon Linden: The LeTigre branch has some new object-region crossing code that checks permissions earlier than it used to, so I have guarded hopes that it is indeed fixed
[12:18] Kitto Flora thinks about who may see the SVC22 problem.
[12:18] Simon Linden: But given the legendary status of that bug, I hesitate to claim that ... so if anyone feels like testing and seeing if that's true, I'm interested in what you find
[12:19] Andrew Linden: I'm not currently looking into 7459, but I saw some internal email traffic about it, so I believe there is some attention being paid.
[12:19] Kitto Flora: I do see vehicle loss due to 'parcel full' occasionally
[12:20] Simon Linden: The new code should affect permissions, not neccessarily limits due to prim counts
[12:20] Jonathan Yap: Maybe 7459 could be marked as acknowleged to quiet people down a bit
[12:21] Simon Linden: Good point, Jonathan
[12:21] Andrew Linden: That is good advice Jonathan. I'll try to find out more internally and find someone to post there.
[12:21] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Simon and Andrew
[12:21] Kitto Flora: In all my apps, permissions are always correct - that is I ensure that the next parcel is always accessible. And it is.
[12:22] Kitto Flora: How anyone expects parvcel prims limits to be bypassed for a 'vehicle' that has no rider - beats me.
[12:23] Flip Idlemind: Crossing regions while sitting on a prim works by unsitting you, moving you and the object to the other region, and then re-sitting you, right?
[12:23] Simon Linden: Right, that's basically what happens under the hood
[12:24] Flip Idlemind: So, the auto return could kick in during that brief moment when you're not technically sitting on the vehicle?
[12:25] Andrew Linden: I thought we checked for pending re-seat of avatar in the auto-return code, but I'd have to look at the code to verify.
[12:25] Simon Linden: Right, that's how I'd expect that problem to occur
[12:26] Simon Linden: But I'd have to look at the code as well. Of course, it's all _supposed_ to work right :P
[12:26] Andrew Linden: Kitto, you had a question about keyframe animation?
[12:27] Kitto Flora: Yes - is what we have now for that function 'how its going to be" or can we expect improvements?
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Oh btw, we do have someone working on making avatar + vehicle region crossings atomic, which would eliminate a parcel autoreturn race condition if it existed.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Kitto, perhaps you could summarize the way it is now for me? I'm not too familiar with the script API for keyframe animation.
[12:29] Andrew Linden: Also, what you would like to see changed/added?
[12:29] Kitto Flora: Er - thats a long explanation...
[12:29] Flip Idlemind: I remember Falcon (I think) saying it was designed so that making improvements to it would be easy
[12:29] Kitto Flora: It takes a list of position,rotation,time,......
[12:29] Andrew Linden: s/easy/possible/
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: position by region instead of local
[12:30] Kitto Flora: and does a llSetPos() type move on the object , linearly moving between the waypoints in the requested time
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Vincent, that region position statement was something for the wishlist right?
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Kitto Flora: The current problem is - it fails at border crossings!
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: yeah, was brought up on the wiki page in talk
[12:30] Kitto Flora: (Dej vu??)
[12:31] Kitto Flora: The object will stop mid list, at 2M outside the region its in, and not make any border crossing
[12:31] Kitto Flora: Essentailly, I suppose - Keyfarem Anim. fails to push an object into the next region.
[12:32] Andrew Linden: Ok the region crossing problem should definitely be fixed. I thought it was working.
[12:32] Fancy Detector: Falcon Linden has arrived!
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: maybe Falcon can answer that
[12:33] Kitto Flora: Nah - have to detect failure to cross then hammer the object sith multiple llSetPus() to get it into next region - sometimes it takes 3 meters of shove to get it into next region
[12:33] Andrew Linden: Falcon. Kitto Flora says keyframe animation motion fails at region crossings. Is that a known issue?
[12:33] Kitto Flora: IE it dont trasition until 5M outside the old region
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Ahoy folks
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: heya
[12:34] JoyofRLC Acker: Ahoy! :)
[12:34] Falcon Linden: Thought I'd swing by today. I was wondering if anybody's had a chance to try out llSetKeyframedMotion on some interesting builds
[12:34] Falcon Linden: or test the new limits in llCastRay
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Falcon, scroll back for a question about keyframe animation failing at region crossings.
[12:35] Jonathan Yap: He might not be able to scroll back
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: he wasn't in chat range at the time
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: [12:33] Andrew Linden: Falcon. Kitto Flora says keyframe animation motion fails at region crossings. Is that a known issue?
[12:35] Falcon Linden: it shouldn't and didn't fail in any of my or maestro's tests
[12:35] Kitto Flora: llSetKeyframedMotion - I have vehicle that runs around the SLRR rail tracks - works well except border crossings all fail - or >90% fail. It always needs ashove.
[12:36] Falcon Linden: that's strange. Can you repro it with a KFM_PING_PONG animation across a single border?
[12:36] Kitto Flora: Dont know. I can try
[12:37] Flip Idlemind: Quick question, is keyframe motion everywhere now, or still on an RC?
[12:37] Falcon Linden: cool. Create the simplest repro you can, open a jira with it, and Maestro will check it out
[12:37] Falcon Linden: FLIP: everywhere
[12:37] Flip Idlemind: Wooty
[12:37] Leonel Iceghost: will it work in huds someday?
[12:38] Falcon Linden: Also happy to see that there don't appear to be any physics bugs introduced by the Havok 2011.2 upgrade. W00t!
[12:38] Falcon Linden: Leonel: not likely, it's intended for interacting with the physics system
[12:38] Falcon Linden: Fundamentally, it's tied to an object's rigid body and attachments don't have one
[12:39] Andrew Linden: That is, attachments don't have a collision shape in the physics engine.
[12:39] Leonel Iceghost: something with that for huds would be amazing
[12:39] Leonel Iceghost: like that*
[12:39] Falcon Linden: so many things would be amazing :)
[12:39] Leonel Iceghost: algo it wouldn't hurt framed color changing and other stuff :P
[12:39] Leonel Iceghost: also
[12:40] Falcon Linden: I vote for not providing that for HUDs and instead providing a nice API for HTML 5 huds
[12:40] Leonel Iceghost: html is blocked by firewalls
[12:40] Leonel Iceghost: first make it so the ip is hidden, so we can use it freely
[12:40] Kitto Flora: Play AngryBirds on your HUD?
[12:41] Leonel Iceghost: firewall as firestorm firewall I mean
[12:41] Falcon Linden: There is no actual dev work going on on that idea as far as I know, btw
[12:42] Simon Linden: You've seen the demo HTML hud, right?
[12:42] Simon Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/HTML_HUD_Demo
[12:42] Leonel Iceghost: yes, it asks an ugly permission to allow or deny in 3rd party viewers
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: what about attachment?
[12:43] Falcon Linden: Simon: yeah, I did
[12:43] Simon Linden: You should bug some 3rd party viewer developers :)
[12:43] Falcon Linden: Vincent: what about attachment?
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: instead of hud?
[12:43] Leonel Iceghost: they do that because otherwise people collect ips
[12:43] Leonel Iceghost: to ban
[12:43] Leonel Iceghost: from states
[12:43] Andrew Linden: Actually I think a keyframed HUD/attachment would be a nice feature. I'm willing to ponder how it might be done, but I can think of many things I'd like to fix before tackling that.
[12:44] Leonel Iceghost: is there any way the ip of the user could be hidden for the hud?
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: without physic, of course
[12:44] Vincent Nacon: mainly for display use
[12:44] Leonel Iceghost: a new event
[12:44] Leonel Iceghost: or something
[12:45] Andrew Linden: Ah, Leonel is asking for IP-address obfuscation for HTML huds
[12:45] Falcon Linden: Vincent: right. Yeah, I still think a generalized HUD/UI system is a better use of dev resources, though it would use more of them...
[12:46] Leonel Iceghost: you could show the IP of the server, so 3rd party viewers would allow free use of http huds
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: oh I don't meant for hud
[12:46] JoyofRLC Acker: may i ask a question ?
[12:46] Andrew Linden: Ask JoyofRLC.
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: attachment, like your falcon bird could move around smooth motion
[12:47] Falcon Linden: oh, I see
[12:47] Falcon Linden: yeah, that would be nice.
[12:47] Andrew Linden: Regarding hidden viewer IP addresses... LL would have to run some sort of http proxy service. A bick stack of proxies.
[12:47] JoyofRLC Acker: ... my apologies i think i arrived in the moddle of something, this talk about HUDs - it sounds intriguing; is there somewhere i can see what its about, i looked at the demo quickly but i thnk id need a bit of an itnroduction
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: but of course... I know some people gonna want that on HUD as well but I'd agree about HTML5
[12:47] Leonel Iceghost: why a proxy, just intercept the request to the ip flag
[12:48] Vernes Veranes: traffic would still need to be rerouted.
[12:48] Jonathan Yap: How is this html5 suggestion different than using Media on a Prim (with maybe an updated to qtwebkit)?
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: less resource on SL's server
[12:49] Falcon Linden: jonathan: media on a prim doesn't allow, e.g., transparent backgrounds. It also doesn't provide a mechanism for interacting with the world
[12:50] Falcon Linden: the kind of system I'm envisioning would offer some way of interacting with SL from inside the UI. But I haven't spent much time thinking about it
[12:50] Andrew Linden: A summary for JoyofRLC: we were talking about keyframed animation, someone asked if we could have it for HUD's/attachments, Falcon replied he'd rather see HTML-5 on HUD instead. Simon pointed at the scripted HTML-HUD demo mini-map example.
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: just don't limit it to Flash, like what BlueMars did.... muhaha!
[12:51] JoyofRLC Acker: Thanks andrew.
[12:52] Qie Niangao: So... returning to Maps for a moment, but this time specifically about the MapAPI ... (I mumbled about this a few meetings back) ... will there be a problem next year, when Google starts charging to use their Map API? The API-generated SL maps have a Google copyright, even though obviously not Google's geo data, so... not sure if LL will suddenly have a big bill to pay Google each month or not.
[12:52] Kelly Linden: Media on a prim from LSL scripts has decent interaction with the world (back to the LSL script). The transparency part is a problem, but I don't think it is unsolvable.
[12:52] Flip Idlemind: Google needs more money of course. Just like Microsoft does
[12:53] Andrew Linden: Qie, that is a good question. Dunno the answer. I"ll have to ask some others in LL.
[12:53] Squirrel Wood: Everyone needs more, more, more. That's what its all about :p
[12:53] Qie Niangao: Thanks. I appreciate it.
[12:53] Leonel Iceghost: they don't do it for themselves, they need money for they grand-grand-grand sons
[12:54] Leonel Iceghost: college
[12:54] Laggi Meeroo whispers: Simon Linden will you please pick me up and snuggle me?
[12:55] Leonel Iceghost: html would be awersome if we can just use as we want for everybody, without perms or things like that
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Leonel Iceghost: for webs hosted enterily in LL, I don't see why it needs the ip
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: making you JIRA feature for the Region/Local flag, Falcon
[12:57] Flip Idlemind: So, Kelly, I remember you mentioning something about a really short llSleep inside while() loops and whatnot being much nicer to the sim
[12:57] Kelly Linden: yup
[12:57] Flip Idlemind: Is that still up-coming, or is it currently true
[12:58] Falcon Linden: Vincent: no, not that. I meant for the KFM_SHIFT stuff
[12:58] Kelly Linden: A while(1) llSleep(0.001); should be nearly as performant but way nicer on the sim than a while(1) ; especially if you are waiting for something that won't change while the script runs.
[12:58] Falcon Linden: Vincent: I'm not adding a region/local flag--it would complicate serialization which is already kind of touchy
[12:58] Kelly Linden: Flip: I think that is on letigre.
[12:58] Squirrel Wood: heh. I still have mono scripts that have a scripted prim color chane that never gets done.
[12:58] Vincent Nacon: um... that's what it was about, Falcon...
[12:58] Squirrel Wood: change
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: what did you think it was?
[12:59] Leonel Iceghost: Kelly you did it so llSleep(0.001) didn't skip a frame, and then you undid that?
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Falcon Linden: vincent: well, there were two suggestions in that thread. One was about providing a flag for local/absolute coordinates. The other was about providing two extra parameters to let you shift or rotate a whole list
[13:01] Kelly Linden: Leonel: I think I did fix a bug in that.
[13:01] Falcon Linden: Looks like OH are over and I need to hassle someone about something, so I've gotta run
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: seeya
[13:01] Flip Idlemind: Have fun
[13:01] Falcon Linden: Cheers all! And, if you're in a country that celebrates it, enjoy your Thanksgiving
[13:01] Leonel Iceghost: what happened.. people didn't want the boost in velocity?
[13:01] Kelly Linden: o/
[13:01] Falcon Linden: (And if you're not, enjoy the day anyway?)
[13:02] Squirrel Wood: Enjoy!
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Falcon, Kelly, Simon & Andrew.
[13:02] Squirrel Wood: ...
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:02] Renae Daines: And if not, use it as an excuse for a nice meal =p
[13:02] Squirrel Wood: lag chat
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks all... have fun!
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