Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.04.29

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List of Speakers

Adamburp Adamczyk Delphin Epsilon Hexapoda
Inara Pey Jenna Felton Lucia Nightfire
Mona Eberhardt Motor Loon Nalates Urriah
Oz Linden Qie Niangao Rex Cronon
Simon Linden Tankmaster Finesmith Whirly Fizzle
Yuzuru Jewell


[12:01] Simon Linden: Hello everyone - welcome to the user group

[12:01] Inara Pey: Hey, Qie!

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Qie.

[12:02] Qie Niangao: Hi Inara, Mona, all. :)

[12:02] Rex Cronon: hi simon

[12:02] Simon Linden: For news, we had the main channel updated this morning with the maintenance release that was in Magnum

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Qie

[12:02] Rex Cronon: hi qie

[12:02] Simon Linden: The info is here from the forum:

[12:03] Simon Linden: Tomorrow all the RC channels will get that new code. They still have the new inventory service work

[12:03] Simon Linden: I'm not sure when the next maintenance release will come out ... not likely next week, perhaps the one after that

[12:03] Simon Linden: This week I've been working on group chat

[12:04] Inara Pey: Looking to start Agni testing on that yet, Simon?

[12:04] Simon Linden: That's actually going well ... we deployed the new code to a production server yesterday and it seems to be running fine

[12:04] Inara Pey: Question answered :0

[12:05] Simon Linden: we're likely to let that run for a bit before putting it on all the group chat servers, but so far it looks good

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Whirly. I have something for you.

[12:07] Simon Linden: Baker isn't here today but I know he's working again on a few group ban bugs. I think he keeps having code merge problems, but it's coming along

[12:07] Simon Linden: That's it for news, so the table is open for questions or topics

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire: slow year for features, lol

[12:09] Simon Linden: lol and a slow day at the user group today too

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: there hasn't been much exciting news lately

[12:10] Hexapoda: Question: How to spot users that run script that lag a sim?

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: either monitor their attached script usage or pray you're an EO or EM to find it

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: otehrwise, you're SOL

[12:10] Hexapoda: I has try script info but it is very hard to see, many script and big script is not same as laggy scripts.

[12:11] Simon Linden: I think the top scripts list shows AVs with their attachment scripts

[12:12] Simon Linden: yes, that's true ... the number of scripts isn't a direct indication of lag

[12:12] Qie Niangao: Well, speaking of exciting new features... Danger Linden recently said a few things in public about experience keys... would be fun to learn a bit more when / if anybody could answer questions (like, most crucially for me, whether they'll work across multiple Mainland regions).

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: I think the EXP project is another gaming oriented feature, its usage will be limited

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: idt it will help land owners at all

[12:13] Simon Linden: Yes, Danger was interviewed recently and talked about them ... and those really are the most details I've heard in a while too

[12:13] Seewo (siwo): maybe llGetObjectDetails(key, [OBJECT_SCRIPT_TIME]) ? ...or this doesn't work for avatars?

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: it works when targeting avatars, yes

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: unless the source of the lag is a rezzed object

[12:14] Hexapoda: LL maybe should do a viewer for land managers that is more about spot problems and solve problems rather than have fancy graphics and bling bling.

[12:14] Simon Linden: I'm going to be really curious how they get used, Lucy. It will be interesting to see if land owners use it to make some common experiences that aren't just game oriented

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt: Or maybe a TPV developer could take up this job, Hexapoda.

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire: its commerce oriented in a nutshell

[12:14] Qie Niangao: can see it working for avatars over in the corner... it's just that those numbers are very hard to interpret when a new avatar arrives in the sim. (not wrong, just... *dynamic*)

[12:15] Jenna Felton: first we need to know what "game" means :)

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle: Thay did, its called radegast :P

[12:15] Hexapoda: Yes, but LL has more server experience and TPV tend to go for bling bling and to be way to advance.

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: it sucks that script decay is so friggin long

[12:15] Hexapoda: LL often has best balache.

[12:16] Jenna Felton: i think the experience tools would be used for RP areas, too and when that is a game than yes, when RP is not a game, than its a normal usage

[12:17] Rex Cronon: i am curious what wil happens if somebody tp into a bdsm "game" sim and due to this "magical" experience stuff becomes an unwilling participant?

[12:17] Qie Niangao: well, I can say that XP would be used for Mainland "excursion" experiences, and by folks like MadPea for more immersive grid-wide hunts... *iff* they aren't estate- or region-limited.

[12:17] Tankmaster Finesmith: theres no TPV developer that im aware of that hase anything remotely close to access to the server code.

[12:17] Simon Linden: It's opt-in, Rex, and you can revoke the permissions as well

[12:17] Qie Niangao: (not necessarily MadPea themselves. I mean folks *like* them)

[12:17] Simon Linden: But I'm sure some people will push the limits there

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: unless it allows resources restrictions, which it won't, I have limited use for it

[12:19] Jenna Felton: i can imagine ghost castles where you get interesting experiences by visiting rooms

[12:19] Simon Linden: No, it doesn't add anything new with resource limits

[12:20] Jenna Felton: or when a small area turns in a large grid-wide installation when you enter a room and find yourself somewhere at another sim, because you allowed the teleport permission once

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: my main concern is what will be allowed publicly on group owned land and the reverse

[12:20] Motor Loon: I'd expect the granted permissions to be lost after a forced TP to another sim?

[12:21] Qie Niangao: Oh, I hope *not* !

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle: I thought they were kept forever until you revoked them. Kept for a particular experience you granted I mean

[12:21] Jenna Felton: than ther wil be needs for a visitors HUd that performs teleports, but is than less handy

[12:21] Simon Linden: I don't think so, Motor - not within the same experience, at least

[12:21] Rex Cronon: are these perms for the experience stuff given to a specific sim, objec, or owner?

[12:22] Qie Niangao: Danger said they'd expire on logout, which would be cool with me.

[12:22] Qie Niangao: (at least that's what I remember thinking I heard him say)

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle: Ahhh

[12:22] Simon Linden: The things done in Linden Realms are the best example now of the experience tools, but what comes out isn't exactly the same

[12:22] Inara Pey: He did, but his other connects suggested limited to region / estate.

[12:22] Simon Linden: Yes, they expire at logout from what i know

[12:22] Inara Pey: connects?

[12:22] Motor Loon: "same experience" meaning what? that both sims are set to run a certain "experience title" ?

[12:22] Inara Pey: comments....

[12:23] Simon Linden: Yes Motor, I _think_ that's a requirement

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle: The viewer lists all the experience permissions you granted though right? And you can revoke.

[12:23] Motor Loon: ok, well - thats good enough too I guess

[12:23] Simon Linden: Yes Whirly ... I haven't seen the UI myself but I know there's a way to find and revoke what's been granted

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle: I have :D The viewer link isn't hidden very well *looks innocent*

[12:24] Jenna Felton: logout is ok, than when someone relogs in the area under the experience, than the permission must be refreshed, but i think in the same way it hapens when you teleported into

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle: Cant do much without a key though

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: you can compile EXP scripts on any region atm too, heh

[12:24] Rex Cronon: i went to linden realms and i never got a list with the permissions that i gave there

[12:24] Motor Loon: Im sure Linden Realms is "special"

[12:27] Jenna Felton: i think, the experience permissions are not out yet, so LRealms are realized with normal stuff, which only works that Lindens built them. so you wil not find a list of given permissions?

[12:27] Jenna Felton: only works *because* lindens built it

[12:28] Simon Linden: Linden Realms was a project that helped drive the experience tools ... regardless of what you think of it, people were trying to build a more complicated game inside SL and that helped push some new features. What's going to be released is more refined.

[12:29] Simon Linden: LR didn't really need a way for someone to revoke the permissions in a hurry, for example ... the developers were internal so we knew it wasn't doing anything harmful

[12:32] Simon Linden: hmmm ... given the silence, should we call it a day and meet up at the next one?

[12:32] Hexapoda: Lets call it a day.

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: I'm afraid to ask the status on any bugs as it seems nothign is being worked on lately, heh

[12:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: i just wanted to point out

[12:33] Simon Linden: yes Lucy, I don't think there are any updates there

[12:33] Tankmaster Finesmith: LL is updating some of te system requirnments

[12:33] Simon Linden: ah yes, it's time to get off XP :)

[12:33] Rex Cronon: what?

[12:33] Tankmaster Finesmith: well, at least XP SP2 :D

[12:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: I contributed code to LL to update the windows installer to block XP SP2 and lower (for 32bit)

[12:34] Hexapoda: And I did think I was after in time when using Win7

[12:34] Tankmaster Finesmith: currently LL's installer will allow installing on windows 2000 and later

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: Because XP & Mac 10.6 are officially unsupported now, does this mesn that LL support won't help people on XP or 10.6 with performance/stability type problems?

[12:35] Motor Loon: That should "loose" alot of users

[12:35] Tankmaster Finesmith: also, with the installer change, I added a message at the end of the installation to notify the user if they are not on the latest service pack

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: *mean

[12:35] Derrick Skipper (helios.eun): Heya, Simon, I still have a question. But being late here, I'm not exactly sure what this meeting is for. Still, I'll shoot ahead: Will LSL gain support for nestable lists or a dictionary type anytime soon? I'm really missing that in the language, and with Mono as a backend, this should be a feasible feature.

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: use JSON for your quasi nestable lists

[12:36] Rex Cronon: well tankmaster i hope that ll never uses the code u contributed:)

[12:36] Tankmaster Finesmith: rex, they already have pulled it in

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: They are Rex lol

[12:36] Motor Loon: Wonder how many Second Life™ users are running on a cracked windows and therefor wont have the ability to install servicepacks

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: Rex, everyone has to upgrade their punchcard machines sometime

[12:36] Motor Loon: 1/3 maybe?

[12:36] (surfaqua.oh): hello

[12:36] Derrick Skipper (helios.eun): It's possible to do that, Lucy, but that is more of a hack than anything.

[12:37] Simon Linden: I'm not familiar with the exact support details, Whirly ... but it's probably going in that direction. IOW, if you end up with an XP system acting bad, there's not much that can be done

[12:37] Tankmaster Finesmith: 32bit XP SP3 and 64bit XP SP2 will still be allowed to installe SL, but not anything older

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah

[12:37] Delphin Epsilon: hey guys

[12:37] Simon Linden: The viewer group has a pretty good idea of the usage for various OS and hardware ... this kind of decision isn't made lightly

[12:38] Rex Cronon: imo that is a "genius" idea. lets see how empty ll will get:(

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle: XP has a bloody awful crash rate. Most of the out of memory crashes we see in FS support are on XP 32 bit.

[12:38] Simon Linden: I do know that a disproportioned about of crashes and graphics problems are on the older hardware

[12:38] Motor Loon: Not really all the happy with this idea

[12:38] Seewo (siwo): it would be nice to [finally] have 64bit LL viewer for linux :)

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: Rex, people will upgrade or use viewers they shouldn't, that is all that will happen

[12:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: whats wrong with the idea, motor?

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle: You can still use XP, they arnt blocking it

[12:39] Mona Eberhardt: Before this happens, Seewo, it'd be nice to have 64-bit Havok and a less buggy Vivox.

[12:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: mona, the next release of FS will have the less buggy vivox version in it, LL currently is using it in their latest release

[12:39] Rex Cronon: u have the a nice crash rate because the "special" tvps that r used to crash people

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah the latest vivox seems pretty good. They fixed that nasty voice stutter bug the previous version had

[12:40] Motor Loon: Tank: if a large portion of users arent able to install servicepacks Tank and hence arent able to install the viewer... you dont think thats a problem?

[12:40] Delphin Epsilon: I have a question about shape keys

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: hopefully that stupid popup thing is fixed too

[12:41] Rex Cronon: what good is that i can use xp if the sl viewer decides that i doesn't want to run on it?

[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: for anything newer than XP, it doesn't matter what SP is installed, it will only notify you trhat theres a newer SP but it wont block the installation

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm not yet Lucia but Latif submitted a path to allow more then one voice injnstance which fixes it along the way.

[12:41] Seewo (siwo): well.. yes.. voice module works "funny" (crashes and turns voice into "gibberish").

[12:41] Motor Loon: Tank: ok, I was thinking it was going to abort the install then

[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: the viewer itself isnt gettingh any changes that would not work on XP

[12:42] Mona Eberhardt: And it's also insecure, Seewo. It allows someone to follow you to wherever you tp to, bypassing the privacy permissions system (SEC-1376).

[12:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: it does imply that, motor, I agree, but i asked Oz for clarification and he said it wasnt modified from my contrbution

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: there are several ways to track people, w/ or w/o a special viewer, heh

[12:43] Motor Loon: Tank: super

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: Your installer onlky blocks XP 32 bit if it doesn't have SP3 installed right Tank?

[12:43] Rex Cronon: u just said taksmaster that if somebody doesn't have the right xp version the viewer will refuse to install:(

[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: i think its an attempt to get people to update their system tot he latest SP for better stability and experience, which if they can update, theres nothing wrong with that

[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: correct, whirly

[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: ot if SP2 isnt installed on XP 64bit

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: We had this in FS for a while & tbh, I never saw anyone complain about it

[12:44] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, FS has had most of these changes for over a year now

[12:44] Derrick Skipper (helios.eun): Anybody using anything pre-SP3 on x86 or pre-SP2 on x86_64 is slowly going to be locked out from the most popular web sites, anyway.

[12:45] Rex Cronon: i really don't like it when somebody tries to force something down my throat. especially when they claim they know better than me what is good 4 me.

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: by May 13th? or is that just W8.0?

[12:45] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah, XP SP2 32bit was release about 9 years ago

[12:45] Qie Niangao: eventually somebody will do us a favor and fatally attack all internet-connected XP boxes.

[12:46] Rex Cronon: so even though xp can run the viewer u want to kick people out?

[12:46] Tankmaster Finesmith: if you cannot install SP3 on XP, you really should fix that first

[12:46] Qie Niangao: I just want XP to quit working for anything at all

[12:46] Oz Linden: Delphin had a question about shape keys....

[12:46] Tankmaster Finesmith: XP isnt getting blocked, rex

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt: You guys are talking about a relatively new OS release... In the forums of the open source codebase we're based on in RL, someone was asking about using this software (which was first developed circa 2001) on Windows 98 boxes. :/

[12:46] Derrick Skipper (helios.eun): Starting 1.1.2016, certificate authorities which wish to be acknowledged by Windows may only hand out SSL certificates with SHA-2 hashes. Older versions of Windows do not support these and believe such certificates to be invalid. The end result is that the affected users won't be able to access any site that forces HTTPS.

[12:47] Oz Linden: let's let the topic get back on track

[12:47] Seewo (siwo): Mona, you are successfully feeding my fear of using voice chat :D

[12:47] Simon Linden: Delphin .. what's your question?

[12:47] Mona Eberhardt: Well, Seewo, Vivox is as secure as Window 3.11.

[12:47] Rex Cronon: so kicking people out if they r not using the "right" xp verrsion is not an important subject?

[12:47] Mona Eberhardt: Windows*

[12:48] Adamburp Adamczyk: I'm curiosu about this "bunny" link.........

[12:48] Oz Linden: it's not a simulator subject

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: Rex, just upgrade to SP3

[12:48] Rex Cronon: u ever tried to upgrade to sp3?

[12:48] Qie Niangao: (I'm not even sure what "shape keys" are)

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: yes, I have

[12:49] Tankmaster Finesmith: on nay system that has XP, I have, rex

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle: I don't know what a shape key is either

[12:49] Rex Cronon: u remember what it asks u to agree?

[12:49] Delphin Epsilon: shape keys are morph targets in a .dae file (mesh uploads)

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle: Ooooh

[12:49] Qie Niangao: ah, *those* shape keys.

[12:49] Tankmaster Finesmith: standard ToS stuff, rex

[12:50] Delphin Epsilon: ya I was thinking the viewer doesnt have to upload all the data just beginning and end of the data and the viewer handles the interpretation

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: Delphin, is that whats requested here?

[12:50] Delphin Epsilon: some people say its too much data to stream I think its not if you let the viewer do the interpretation

[12:50] Delphin Epsilon: ^^

[12:50] Derrick Skipper (helios.eun): Rex, your operating system version has been unsupported for years, and you will not be able to access web sites enforcing HTTPS starting from 2016. This may include Google, Facebook and Twitter if those companies don't specifically let you bypass forced HTTPS, and that might be rather unlikely.

[12:51] Nalates Urriah: Whirly, I think that is the thing people would like to have...

[12:51] Delphin Epsilon: oh dang apparently UUID swapping was helpful there

[12:51] Rex Cronon: is not 2016. is it?

[12:51] Delphin Epsilon: thanks whirly!

[12:52] Delphin Epsilon: didnt know

[12:52] Simon Linden: I would _love_ it if we had the resources to look at new or better animation features, especially with mesh, but realistically I don't see that happening any time soon

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: I was curious if any groups on Agni were running with the group chat fixes yet?

[12:55] Simon Linden: yes, 1/16th of the groups are

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: Ahh cool

[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: start with FSE, if chat breaks, it wont seem any different than now :P

[12:56] Motor Loon: how excactly will this new groupchat code be improved?

[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: Can we know which ones? Is it just groups starting with the same number in the key?

[12:56] Delphin Epsilon: well whats holding SL back? I was just talking with Nal saying with more features/improvements to the viewer LL could do with more help.

[12:56] Delphin Epsilon: you'd think they'd need it^^ with the more work

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: 1/16th as in groups starting with a certain key char? or 1/6th of teh servers, lol

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: Group chat server was down earlier for groups with key starting with 7 :P

[12:57] Simon Linden: yes Whirly -- that's why it's not simple to just test on one specific group

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: *1/16

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: the lack of feature releases in teh last 5 months, makes the future look questionable, heh

[12:58] Yuzuru Jewell: Will all group be updated near future?

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: the last thing rolled out was Andrew's ScalebyFactor in Dec of last year

[12:59] Motor Loon: ^^ that was a good one though

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: definately

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: that and scripted prim return

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: most needed features taht were way overdue

[13:00] Simon Linden: yes Yuzuru - I am not sure how long we're going to let this one sit until we're confident it's solid, but so far it seems good. I'd expect this update to move to the other groups maybe next week, but we're going to discuss plans later today

[13:00] Nalates Urriah: With a new CEO I would expect the immediate and longer range plans to be changing. That would sort of plug up the pipeline for a time.

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: and then theres always that issue with money, heh

[13:01] Simon Linden: That does get in the way sometimes :)

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: always, heh

[13:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming this week and the good talk

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: Well, the USA benefits from something called QE when it comes to money (unlike the EU).

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Lindens.

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens

[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, Oz... all have fun!

[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc. simon


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