User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Feb 20

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:00]	Zero Linden:	hello hello
[13:00]	Jarod Godel:	sorry
[13:00]	Zha Ewry:	Hello, Hello
[13:00]	Jarod Godel:	lag is killing me
[13:01]	Zha Ewry:	31,000+ kililng every one:-(
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	I think we just hit 32k!
[13:01]	Jarod Godel:	bps?
[13:01]	Zha Ewry:	SO, Zero, why does Anti Virus software and the first look get in an arm wrestle?
[13:01]	Khamon Fate:	is that's what's happening?
[13:01]	Zha Ewry:	Yes
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	If you have NOrton, Or Msofts stuff installed, you see 30 minute rez times
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	Exempt the cache, and it goes down to 10 seconds
[13:02]	Khamon Fate:	the microsoft defender too?
[13:02]	Zero Linden:	Zha - don't know I don't First Look has anything different in networking
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	Yes
[13:02]	Khamon Fate:	i think it's causing netscape problems as well
[13:02]	Zero Linden:	Oh - wait - but it stores things in the cache separtely
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	Ah.
[13:03]	Khamon Fate:	i have mcafee and SL has always run much better with the access scan turned off
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	it stores everything as individual files, rather than our previous, hand built "one file system in a single file" thing
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	Took me six weeks to find that root cause :-)
[13:03]	Khamon Fate:	you know microsoft still disk caches to a single file. go figure
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	Uh oh - Jarod needs to be able to wield his hammer.....
[13:03]	Khamon Fate:	his hammer only wields math
[13:04]	Jarod Godel:	i'll be happy to just be able to sit.
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	ooooo - now I feel, well, blue
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	Rex what is that?
[13:04]	Zha Ewry:	FIrst look keeps re-baking me at random
[13:04]	Khamon Fate:	ha ha ha
[13:04]	Zha Ewry:	And unsitting me
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	But your earring still look fabulous!
[13:05]	Zha Ewry:	Heh
[13:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody, sorry i just came from SWT(sandbox-weapons testing) that was my shield
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	*earrings
[13:05]	Khamon Fate:	what are we talking about today zero? got any news from the depths?
[13:06]	Zha Ewry:	However, seriously, that needs to be in the release notes, or you're going to have 25% of your clients go dead slow after the update on Wednesday
[13:06]	Jarod Godel:	any tales from Object Land?
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	I was going to wait a bit more... but sure, let's start
[13:06]	Khamon Fate:	start for us, we're special
[13:06]	Joker Opus:	Script run-time error
[13:06]	Joker Opus:	Math Error
[13:06]	Zha Ewry:	We're prompt :-)
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	Okay
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	let's start - some ground rules
[13:07]	Jarod Godel:	I'd say we're on the ball, but I'm on a cube.
[13:07]	Joker Opus:	=P
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	I post the transcript of this session
[13:07]	Rex Cronon:	i have a quick question, last tuesday u said that u r going to post the transcript, but i can't find it:(
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	I'm an engineer at LL, so I can't really help with community or customer service issues...
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	I'm here to talk about our engineering of SL -
[13:08]	flying ball whispers: I am ALIVE!
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	I'm not really going to be good as a conduit of bug reports or feature requests
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	I'm here to be open with and listen to the bigger projects of SL
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	or rather, of it's engineering
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	okay
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	SO - to start off
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	I thought that I"d let you all know that it looks like this week we'll have a version of the system in our lab all communicating with a new
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	messaging infrastructure that my studio has been working on.
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	this is a big step and we hope to be able to role that out in about 6 weeks
[13:10]	Khamon Fate:	new what?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Mind you, it will be boring to almost everyone - since it just changes the way most of our piece talk to each other
[13:11]	Jarod Godel:	communicating with a new what?
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	If that helps with the colos talking to each other, We'll *all* notice
[13:11]	flying ball whispers: I am ALIVE!
[13:11]	Khamon Fate:	thanks, my chat is being unreliable. will y'all be working on that? oh i see you will that's great
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Zha - exactly - the change is to enable communication via LLSD over HTTP, rather than our hand packed binary format over UDP
[13:12]	Jarod Godel:	woohoo! TCP/IP!
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	While there is some more overhead, the connections are more reliable
[13:12]	Khamon Fate:	yeah! which services will be using the new system?
[13:12]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:12]	Elanthius Flagstaff:	Is this a connection to the viewer or just between sims?
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Everything will have the option - we basically lifted up the message system and changed it out....
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	in order to make this transition smooth, the old code path is still there and we can switch between new and old on a per-message basis
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	The first day, we'll have everything going the old way -
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	then we'
[13:13]	Zha Ewry:	RIght, That was mentioned in the town hall, about six weeks back
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	we'll start cutting things over to the new one by one
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	if something breaks, we'll just put it back on the live grid
[13:14]	Jarod Godel:	Frontier engineering.
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	This will also let us keep an eye on the network effects as we do it - rather than making a big change and crossing our fingers!
[13:14]	Joker Opus:	w00t
[13:14]	Khamon Fate:	sounds like a plan, i just migrated a switch one server at a time
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Indeed, it takes much more work and testing this way, but our aim is to keep the grid up
[13:14]	Jarod Godel:	Well this new mesaging system have an API?
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	Do you know which services will go first?
[13:15]	Khamon Fate:	no jarod it's only used by The Grid's infrastructure
[13:15]	Jarod Godel:	Can we tap this HTTP for external data?
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	Jarod, Internally, yes it will, and because it is HTTP based, we'll be able to expose it piece by piece with capabilities if it makes sense - though initially we won't
[13:15]	Khamon Fate:	Oh no wait this'll affect IM to email and llhttprequest() too
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	Zha - I don't know what will go first - quite possibly sim to viewer communication as that is often a big problem
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - no - it won't those will be unaffected
[13:16]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, makes sense. Are you going to be using this new system for the My.Secondlife thing?
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	If that getsus past the 2048, text only, no chunking for http requests, that would be huge
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	llHTTPRequest uses HTTP directly (via libcurl)
[13:16]	Khamon Fate:	okay, but y'all are updating the IM -> email too right?
[13:16]	Zha Ewry really *hates* the 2048, text only limit
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - yes no change in functionality in that path - only that the
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	messages to move that information around internally will go over a more reliable path
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	Zha - those limits are mostly imposed by LSL
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	Hmm.
[13:17]	Jarod Godel:	Will this new system be used with My. SecondLife that I've heard about?
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	Doe they get better thwn you get the mono runtime?
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	we don't have a good way to manage large strings in a LSL script that only has 16k data space to play with
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	When
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	Zha - the mono runtime could allow us to relax those restrictions some
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	Ah.
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	but don't expect to handle 64k HTTP responses anytime soon
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	/heh
[13:18]	Rex Cronon:	at least 16k
[13:18]	Jarod Godel:	(If I repeat myself today, I apologize. My chat is b0rk3d.)
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	As for my.secondlife.com --
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	I'd settle for 4K, with proper suport for chaining requests and responses
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	16K would be wonderful
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	I'm not sure what the web team is up to with that.... they are also participating in the design of the use of web services and capabilities internally
[13:19]	Jarod Godel:	Is 4k still the max?
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	If they want use cases, I'd be *GLAD* to talk to them ;-)
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	it is expected that our changes to the system (mostly using more web services) will make the web dev.s job much easier and more reliable than what they have to do now
[13:20]	Jarod Godel:	If they need a web dev. to beta anything, let me know. :)
[13:20]	Joker Opus:	Lawl
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	likewise :-)
[13:21]	Jarod Godel:	Ditto, what Zha said.
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	Cool - Dononvan Linden is one of the studio icehouse team - working long and hard on web services infrastructure
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	Welcome Donovan
[13:21]	Tree Kyomoon:	nice
[13:21]	Joker Opus:	Nice to see you donovan
[13:21]	Jarod Godel:	where's my api?
[13:21]	Donovan Linden:	just lurking
[13:21]	Jarod Godel:	where?
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks for comming Donovan
[13:21]	Tree Kyomoon:	HTTP headers wanted :)
[13:21]	Donovan Linden:	jarod: in the future :)
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	Well, there are some APIs already out - there is an external regisration API -
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	and we expect to put out more of them... but right now there has been some work on building a proper data and service layer in the web code
[13:22]	Jarod Godel:	How about inventory management and land stats?
[13:23]	Jarod Godel:	is the new http comm scheme that layer?
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	Well, inventory would be a ways off ... but mostly becuase that is something that is likely to change alot in the next year
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	but land info and economic info would be prime candidates -
[13:24]	Jarod Godel:	I'm trying to get a picture of the SL "stack" in my head.
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	mind you, we are going to have to make some changes in the expectations for such services
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	it isn't likely that we can support near instant stats or data in those areas....
[13:24]	Khamon Fate:	i thunk it was funny when babbage said everything in second life effectively has an RFID tag
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	it might take some period of time for things like financial transactions to post and be cached to get 'em
[13:24]	Elanthius Flagstaff:	Hmm, is that why the search is starting to lag behind?
[13:25]	Elanthius Flagstaff:	You've decided not to tryto keep it instantly upto date?
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	Elanthius - not exactly
[13:25]	Khamon Fate:	account balances on the website are already lagging noticeably
[13:25]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, that would be cool. Just making it web-operable is an exciting prospect.
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	there, we've moved search onto a slave database , and at peak times it doesn't catch up!
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	As for the stack -
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	6 months ago, SL was a collection of messages between processes with no real routing, and all processes (directly or indirectly) hit a central database
[13:26]	Joker Opus:	Hehe this is the part I wanted to here =]
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	well, maybe that was a year ago
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	now we have been moving things, one by one,
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	where it makes sense
[13:26]	Joker Opus:	Seemed fine 6 months ago
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	well. 6 months ago, our concurency was far less than today!
[13:27]	Joker Opus:	affirmative it was!
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	so things move to web services
[13:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	its a great problem to have :)
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	sometimes these services just run out of RAM (such as agent presence -- no need to long term store that)
[13:27]	Khamon Fate:	All Hail The Central Database
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	sometimes they are front ends on the database
[13:27]	Joker Opus:	There has gotten a HUGE pile in the concurrency, which means you guys are getting popular, but the database is suffering
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	Growth is only a good problem, when you can sustain it
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	in which case
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	thses services now allow for partitioning of load and caching
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	and in the future
[13:28]	Jarod Godel:	The innovator's dilemma.
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	provide an abstraction so we can split out the database into other, smaller databases
[13:29]	Joker Opus:	Sort of like the World of Warcraft method of multiple grids and servers
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	in the web dev case - this is exactly what they've done -
[13:29]	Joker Opus:	chat klag
[13:29]	Zha Ewry:	Doesn't that still all backend into the SAN, tho?
[13:29]	Jarod Godel:	Does that partitioning scale infinitely or would it still require a grid-like "world"
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	gone from all PHP code hitting the database, to PHP code that provides a service to other code
[13:29]	Donovan Linden:	world of warcraft gets to cheat by dividing the world into shards, though
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	then that service can be moved and changed without disrupting the huge pile of PHP that is the web site
[13:30]	Joker Opus:	Heheh
[13:30]	Donovan Linden:	we don't have that luxury
[13:30]	Khamon Fate:	I promise you Zero we'd rather have the grid operating overall with delayed updates to FIND than to have the whole thing go down under a high load.
[13:30]	Jarod Godel:	You guys should "cheat" by dividing into sims.
[13:30]	Joker Opus:	Hey, I perfer SL over WoW anyday.. database issues and all
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	Well - it isn't that simple, Jarod - we can't divide as everyone is in the same world - you can find your friends no matter where they are in world
[13:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	less exploding heads here
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	and that implies one world
[13:30]	Joker Opus:	XD
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	Jarod, when you cheat, you start losing your ability to meet everyone in a space.
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	the load on the simulators themselves isn't the killer at present
[13:31]	Jarod Godel:	Really?
[13:31]	Joker Opus rated you positively: (no message)
[13:31]	Jarod Godel:	But isn't that how Jabber works?
[13:31]	Jarod Godel:	and IRC?
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	really - it is load on the database and load on the central services
[13:31]	Joker Opus:	Okies all, I gotta get back to live help, thanks for the info
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	But individual Jabber nodes don't really have the data requirements that SL does
[13:32]	Khamon Fate:	that's the fallacy, tying av presence to a single land supporting grid
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	if all we were supporting were IM, then that'd be one thing
[13:32]	Jarod Godel:	But isn't that what the internal messaging and databasing caching does?
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	khamon - we believe, that like jabber or skype, we can keep all users in the same, non-split world, so long as we can make the presence information
[13:32]	Khamon Fate:	we could actually have several land supporting grids as long as there was a standard method of communicating chat (presense) and teleporting from one to another
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	dividable among multiple servers
[13:33]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, what's the difference in passing a chat message and prim data?
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	Its more than Chat, tho, Khamon, when I touch an object and it moves, all the sims
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	need to see it
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - well, database caching doesn't work so well when there are tons of writes
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	and IN SL - there are tons of writes
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	take off an attachement - DB write
[13:33]	Jarod Godel:	But how does that prim movement differ from chat text?
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	change group membership - DB write
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	chat doesn't go through the database
[13:34]	Rex Cronon:	it doesn't make sense for all the sims to see an obj move, only those that touch the sim where the obj moves, yes, else no
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	your attachement state does
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	Indeed, all sims don't see all objects move
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	neither do prim movements
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	That's done by the SQUIDS, right?
[13:34]	Khamon Fate:	yeah zha but as long as that sim's squid transmits the move to the surrounding sims' squids and all the participating sims transmit the move to their users you have the same effect
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	Actually, no it is not
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	Right, but if you do that, does the message load each sim actually see go down?
[13:35]	Khamon Fate:	it doesn't mean that a sim twice or three times removed needs access to that data as well
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	Right now, objects and prims in a sim aren't xmitted to neighbors at all
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	only when they cross regions
[13:35]	Jarod Godel:	so there are no database writes?
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	no, not on objects in world
[13:36]	Jarod Godel:	just SQUID updates?
[13:36]	Khamon Fate:	so if i'm looking at an object in the next sim and it moves, that data is transmitted directly from the next sim to my client?
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	no squid -
[13:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	does that relate to that Huge prims problem?
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	objects in a region never leave the process that is simulating the region
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	that has to do with adviseent between sims about objects near borders
[13:36]	Jarod Godel:	So why don't individual sims have their own asset servers?
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - because then when you move an object (buy it in one sim, place it in anther), the asset would have to move
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	OR
[13:37]	Khamon Fate:	okay this is making much more sense now
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	each sim would have to reference a large collection of other sims to get those assets
[13:37]	Khamon Fate:	but the client talks to both sims and maintains the "continuity"
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	and we'd have to make the storage on the simulator hosts be
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	raided and backed up
[13:37]	Jarod Godel:	why not a bunch of tiny assets, aka local caches?
[13:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	man you guys have thought of everything1
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - we do Squid cache assets on the simulator hosts
[13:38]	Khamon Fate:	jarod your assuming sims run singularly on a box
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	Sooner, or later, you need atomicty, especially with purchase
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	Or you spend half your life trying to get the updates back
[13:38]	Khamon Fate:	but they actually run several to a box and share buses, disk access and nics
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	The run usually 4 to a box (two dual core CPUs = 4 sims)
[13:38]	Jarod Godel:	Khamon, you mean like people run multiple MySQL databases and websites on a single box?
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	but otherwise they are stock hardware
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	no, just the sims do this
[13:39]	Khamon Fate:	mysql and websites don't stream
[13:39]	Tree Kyomoon:	does that apply to the class 5 servers as well?
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	...
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	in anyevent, we DO distribute some assets: baked AV textures are stored on the sim hosts
[13:39]	Tree Kyomoon:	and is "one" of those sims water sims?
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	forming a sort of grid of disposable asset store
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	yes - all standard regions are run one to a CPU core - and class 4 and 5 hardware are dual CPU, dual core
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	so, 4 to a box
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	water regions (or 'voids' in our terminology) run 4 to a CPU - so 16 on class 4 or 5 hardware
[13:41]	Rex Cronon:	is a baked texture stored in the cash on the client?
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	Rex - yes
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	all textures are cached in the client
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	they have to be... or your video card would go nuts
[13:41]	Jarod Godel:	Can void sims support prims?
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	they support reduced prim counts
[13:41]	Jarod Godel:	Thanks.
[13:42]	Khamon Fate:	my video card already goes to weekly therapy
[13:42]	Prokofy Neva:	I want to ask a question about the web page and its search function.
[13:42]	Khamon Fate:	hey y'all look at this: http://www.outbackonline.com/
[13:42]	Prokofy Neva:	they just released a Far Eastern continent ? lol
[13:42]	Jarod Godel:	Thanks for answering my questions, Zero.
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	just a reminder to all - I post these transcripts
[13:43]	Rex Cronon:	where do u post them zero?
[13:43]	Prokofy Neva:	The search function on the web page works as badly as the search inworld worked when it was broken, that is, it can't do proximate searches, so that two words put in only bring up a lot of junk related only to that one word. Can the web page search be fixed the way James Linden fixed the inworld SEARCH PLACES?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden
[13:44]	Zha Ewry:	Ahh. Thx Zero.
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Search changed technology
[13:45]	Rex Cronon:	thanks for link, i couldn
[13:45]	Rex Cronon:	couldn't find them
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	for inworld search: it is now using full text indexing
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	which has pluses and minuses
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	the biggest plus being that it is MUCH faster for the database
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	I don't know what the web site is using for search - I thought it was a different (not mysql based) full text search engine
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	alas, they aren't likely to be the same technology for some time
[13:46]	Tree Kyomoon:	question about proximity audio...feasable yet?
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Feasible? as in technically - I suppose, there have been some companies showing stuff in world
[13:47]	Prokofy Neva:	whatever the web page uses, it is non-functional, and if you are going to expand the web page to have things like searching inventory or groups or whatever, that search has to be fixed.
[13:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	well I was thinking more in terms of economically and resources wise for linden
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	It is something that clearly would enhance alot of SL for many kinds of use...
[13:47]	Rex Cronon:	how about having a new class of objects for letters
[13:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	like right now...we woudlnt be typing everything
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	Indeed Tree - our studio has daily meetings over skype (we span two continents)
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	and we'd rather have them in world
[13:49]	Tree Kyomoon:	I could get all my coworkers into our island if we could do that
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	I know folks are looking at various technologies for audio
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	but don't know what the plan is....
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	as for letters....
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	Letters?
[13:49]	Rex Cronon:	like instead of having to make a letter out of different prims
[13:50]	rezzerLINES: listening on channel 43
[13:50]	rezzerLINES: drawing LETTERS
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	ah - as in new prim shapes?
[13:50]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[13:50]	rezzerLINES: saying total message:SO THERE YOU GOHELLOWOODYMULTI LINESNASA IS COOLLETTERS
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	This circles back to the stuff like http rendered onto prims
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	well, new prim shapes are possible... but not going to be high priority for now
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	Zha - exactly
[13:51]	Zha Ewry:	Where you're really lookin for a programatic way of getting complex stuff onto prims, rather than .jpgs
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	ah-
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	well we discussed that last week
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	I direct you to the transcript - but
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	if you have use cases for HTML on a prim - please write 'em up and dump the notecard on me!
[13:52]	Zha Ewry:	Will do
[13:52]	Zha Ewry:	it osm
[13:52]	Rex Cronon:	u mean like ideas that we would like to have html displayed on a prims side?
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	Rex- more like what would you expect to be able to do with it
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	is it a shared browser?
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	does it browse the web? or HTML on a notecard?
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	the main thing is getting content hosted externally like images and sounds
[13:53]	Zha Ewry:	Two seperate isssues, there.
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	is it a shared browser (we all see eachother link follows) or individual (we all start on same page, but our browsing is private)
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	without having to tie them to in world assets or land
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	is is mostly generated text from in world scripts? or external images?
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	etc...
[13:54]	Rex Cronon:	actually i would rather like to be able to show a dialog box to user, and have user enter text
[13:54]	Zha Ewry:	Programtic is huge, but as soon as you do that, the 2048 http request limit will hit you in the face
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Obviously - all of the above would be great- but we want to know what the 90% case is
[13:54]	Tree Kyomoon:	i think it must be external textures
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Again - don't assume that we'd force you to fetch the HTML yourself
[13:55]	Zha Ewry:	Although, if LL is doing the fetchign, we get to have the whole how do we secure this pipe discussion
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	right - some some people's ideas for use of HTML on a prim would allow the viewer to do the fetching
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	(And how do we do manage that whoel relationship)
[13:56]	Rex Cronon:	right now i don't know of any way that u can sent a message to a script without everybody being able to listen to it
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	would clearly would reduce load on SL
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	Rex - negotiate a random channel
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	easy enough -
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	Only slightly more secure
[13:56]	Rex Cronon:	they can scan channels
[13:56]	Rex Cronon:	so that is not a solution
[13:56]	Khamon Fate:	client must do the HTML fetching for web on a prim
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	scanning 1M channels is unfeasible in LSL
[13:56]	Tree Kyomoon:	what we need is hash channels
[13:57]	Khamon Fate:	y'all would be foolish to take that load
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	this is the use where most of it is like status displays
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - some uses of HTML on a prim require it -- like where we are all browsing the same generated (via LSL) content
[13:57]	Zha Ewry:	Hmm. I'd agree its low probability, but you can't see corporate auditors on that :-(
[13:57]	Zha Ewry:	sell
[13:58]	Rex Cronon:	for example i would like to have the user enter a password, and i don't want anybody to be able to intercept it(using random channels is not a solution)
[13:58]	Khamon Fate:	okay yeah LSL will have to hand each viewer URLs, but from that point the clients will connect to the web servers directly
[13:58]	Khamon Fate:	surely
[13:58]	Tree Kyomoon:	how much effort to put external images on prims via HTTP?
[13:58]	Shaun Altman:	Hi :)
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	Tree - not out of the question at all
[13:59]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[13:59]	Khamon Fate:	or i see what you mean, LSL generating XML or such and putting it on the prim, yes then the sim becomes a web server in a sense
[13:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	so couldnt you implement that first then add the more complex stuff as we go?
[13:59]	Khamon Fate:	but that's different from handing off a URL and telling the client to browse to that site and present it on this prim face
[14:00]	Shaun Altman:	that would be huge.. even just a really good fast way to put text on a prim would be huge
[14:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	yup
[14:00]	Zha Ewry nods
[14:00]	Shaun Altman:	without having to make a "font" and adjust texture offsets hehe
[14:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	but the 10/upload might represent a competing revenue stream
[14:01]	Rex Cronon:	having html on face, would reduce database access, no longer user has to connecto to server to get texture
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	Tree - I think we're more interested in the features of the system than that revenue stream....
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	:-)
[14:01]	Zha Ewry:	And you stop fililng people 's caches and the asset server with text prim textures
[14:01]	Rex Cronon:	just gets the url for it
[14:01]	Tree Kyomoon:	heh heh well if it is a lot of bucks then it does make a diference to the success of Linden
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	True - but I'm pretty sure the fee is there to put a little backward pressure against filling up the asset store
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	okay all -I'm going to wrap this up .....
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	Next week, and also Thursday at 7:30am.....
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	if you want more!
[14:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks again zero!
[14:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	your the hero
[14:02]	Donovan Linden:	thanks zero, twas fun
[14:03]	Kamael Xevious:	Thanks, Zero.
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	Welcome - I hope this kind of open exchange is useful
[14:03]	Khamon Fate:	thanks for hosting zero
[14:03]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks Zero.
[14:03]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks for not living up to your name
[14:03]	Tree Kyomoon:	;)
[14:03]	Zha Ewry:	So you' want use cases for the 90% http rusage?
[14:03]	Rex Cronon:	do u mind if u r contacted outside your office hours zero?
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	yes - please - write up what you would use it for and how you'd see it working for the end users
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	notecards to me
[14:04]	Zha Ewry:	ok
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	Rex - no, but I'm pretty busy coding!
[14:04]	Shaun Altman:	does someone have a notecard of this office hours? I missed most of it :(
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	on the sign behind you
[14:04]	Zha Ewry:	This was much less of zoo thasn last week, and much more coherent. Thx.
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	also note that these transcripts are posted
[14:04]	Shaun Altman:	aha, thanks :)
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	well - last week we had 30 avatars
[14:05]	Prokofy Neva:	Wow, it's my tenant Elanthius Flagstaff!
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	later all!
[14:05]	Prokofy Neva:	Are you enjoying your low-cost high prim rental there Elanthius?