Difference between revisions of "Doc Team/2008-02-08"
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Latest revision as of 15:48, 18 November 2009
[13:57] You: Hello Becky. Welcome back to Documentation Office Hours! [13:57] You: Er... in 3 minutes or so. [13:57] Becky Pippen: thanks, Hiya, and Happy Friday! [13:57] You: Thanks. TGIF :-) [13:58] You: Hello Saijanai. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours :-) [13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: yo [13:59] Becky Pippen: Hi Saijanai, I like your summary page for the Mono [13:59] Becky Pippen: JIRA issues [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, these old eyes have a hard time scanning that. I do it once a day anyway to update thepage [14:00] You: Eh? [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: have hard time scanning the jira [14:00] Becky Pippen: it's time-consuming fer sure [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: This: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Mono_issues vs this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1276 [14:01] You: Heh. I'll agree with that. It's hard to organize so much information, though. [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: it probably wouldn't make sense for most of hte other issues, but mono has special error messages and such and there's a LOT of people finding thesame errors [14:02] You: Wow. I'm something of an LSL enthusiast myself, but I've got very little software engineering training outside Second Life. [14:03] You: I should play with Mono a bit more, I guess! [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: it was more interesting before they added all the delays back in... [14:03] Becky Pippen: hehe [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: but we knew they had to [14:03] You: I bet... when did that happen? [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess with the first update of the sims. [14:04] You: Hello Brigitta1! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. [14:04] Brigitta1 Ballyhoo: hi [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: for a couple of days, you had zero delay on certain calls and we were getting silly results like 100 rotations in 0.04 seconds [14:04] You: I'd actually love to see a reduction in delays on things like llSleep and the timers... it would make musical instruments more viable, for instance. [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. right now, link messagse and sleep are actually slower in mono than without [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure about timer response time [14:05] You: Hm. Really? I found that to be true only before I recompiled for Mono. [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: maybe its changed again. I haven't run the tests i a couople of days [14:05] Becky Pippen: and it's funny when llSetTime() stops working when there's a tight loop with no library calls [14:06] Becky Pippen: i mean llGetTime() [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: hdan't noticed that one. Don't think its jiraed, is it? [14:06] Becky Pippen: it is. [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: doh. I check them every day and haven't noticed it [14:06] You: Heheh. Anyway, I'm not the right person to really talk to about Mono, obviously. Do you guys have any documentation concerns this week? [14:07] You: *cricket* [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: not per se. I'm doing the volunteer work for the AWG, documenting the client server porotocols on thewiki. Just thought I'd drop in for a bit [14:08] You: Ah, glad you could make it! The wiki's a little bit out-of-scope here, but I do occasionally refer to it when I'm writing Knowledge Base articles. [14:09] You: We tend to reserve the wiki for very technical subjects that we feel are too confusing for the KB, like the technicaly details of sculpties. [14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: sure. And my stuff is geekier than that usually. But it IS documentation ;-) [14:09] You: And by "we" I mean me and Jon at the moment... It's a wiki, so it's open to whatever anyone puts in :-) [14:09] You: Indeed! [14:10] You: Hello Zuis. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours! [14:10] Zuis Mertel: Hello and thnaks [14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm trying to figure out how group IM works. Its a scary topic [14:10] Becky Pippen: ooohh! group IM code sounds like a rats nest [14:10] You: Heh. I can't help much on the protocol side- I'm focused mainly on helping people learn to use the Viewer and Second Life's related web services. [14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage [14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: its worse than it sounds, even [14:11] Zuis Mertel: Jeremy if i my put a quetion [14:11] WidgetHUD v1.1: Zuis Mertel has pinged you. [14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: the problem is the documentaton doesn't really exist except in someone's head [14:12] You: Of course, Zuis. Go ahead! [14:12] Zuis Mertel: im native Portuguese [14:12] Zuis Mertel: and the Viwer never seems to have taht linguge finalized can you help [14:13] Zuis Mertel: or get me a contat because i wold like to help on that [14:13] You: Hm. What do you mean by "finalized"? [14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: localized? [14:13] Babbler3.17: localizzato? [14:13] Zuis Mertel: thara are many words that are in ingles wen we activate the portuguese version [14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: language localization [14:14] Zuis Mertel: yes Localzation of the viwer is not as good as it can be [14:14] Babbler3.17: localizzazione di lingua [14:14] You: Ah. Hmm... That sounds like something that should be in public Jira, probably as a feature request. [14:15] You: jira.secondlife.com [14:15] Zuis Mertel: Ok I will have a look then [14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I know there's someone who does a lot of work on Japanese localziation. Maybe you could ask her about what to do [14:15] xSaijanai: Eu sei que há alguém que faz muitos do trabalho no localziation japonês. Talvez você poderia perguntar-lhe sobre o que fazer [14:16] You: I'm sorry I can't be more immediate help on that... It does appear that Portuguese language support is still in beta. [14:16] Zuis Mertel: ya and i wold like to help it gets out of beta if possible [14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Alissa Sabre [14:16] xSaijanai: Alissa Sabre [14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: she des work on Japanese localization maybe should could point you to the right people [14:17] xSaijanai: trabalho do DES no localization japonês talvez puder o apontar aos povos direitos [14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: she DOES work* [14:17] xSaijanai: trabalha * [14:17] Zuis Mertel: at the momento on the portuguese market si a big problem for adoption of sl [14:17] Zuis Mertel: Thanks SAijana i will trie to ask here ;-) [14:18] You: The official Linden channel I can direct you to is public Jira. I'm not sure who handles localization internally here, but when the Jira task is triaged, I think the right people will be notified. [14:18] Time Minder: You have been online for 3 hours. [14:18] Zuis Mertel: Ok Jeremy [14:18] WidgetHUD v1.1: Zuis Mertel has pinged you. [14:19] You: From a documentation perspective, is the Knowledge Base and/or F1 Help also a problem for Portuguese speakers? [14:19] Zuis Mertel: yes big one [14:20] Zuis Mertel: it satrat on orinetetion island where they almost quit after fiighting [14:20] Zuis Mertel: with teh tuturial [14:20] You: The language was incorrect? [14:20] Roken Price: Hi [14:21] Zuis Mertel: not incorrect but not in protuguese [14:21] You: Hi Roken. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. [14:21] Roken Price: Thank you - this is my first "ijn world " meeting with Lindens [14:22] Zuis Mertel: that wold go to may next question , can i translat a lot o things , and do not infringe copyright [14:22] You: Heh. I'll try to make a good impression, Roken. [14:22] Roken Price: LOL [14:22] Roken Price: So what is the scope here [14:23] You: Mostly the Knowledge Base, Roken... I have limited knowledge of other documentation projects, but I focus on helping people learn about how to use SL. [14:23] Roken Price: I guess asking for a free sim is off the cards :) [14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: talk to the libsl people [14:23] xSaijanai: conversa aos povos do libsl [14:23] Roken Price: OK - I spend a lot of my in world time doinfg that too [14:24] You: As for translation, Zuis... I would suggest that you send a request to Support-- I can't comment on the legality of translating content from our website, but I know we have Lindens who are prepared with the right information. [14:24] Arawn Spitteler: Isn't hte Wiki pretty much open for Translation? [14:25] Zuis Mertel: is it? [14:26] You: The wiki is a wiki... again, I don't know whether it's legal or not, but there must be precedent. [14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: The wiki is mostly under teh Creative Comomons license as far as I know [14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: or maybe its Share and Share ALike (or maybe htatis Createvie Commons) [14:26] Zuis Mertel: i wil have a look at the wiki [14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: maybe that is creative Common [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the license agreement is at the bottm of the wiki pages [14:27] You: Hm. That's actually an interesting bit of research. [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ appears at the bottom of many wkik pages [14:28] You: "You are free to copy, distribute and transmit the work. You are free to adapt the work." [14:28] Roken Price: Isn't the Wiki - by it's very nature open to everyone - regardless of their first language? [14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, but copyright laws apply [14:29] You: "Under the following conditions: You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor. You must distribute the resulting work under the same or similar license." [14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: but if you put original work on the SL wiki, then its automatically licesned by that license at the bottom of the page [14:29] Roken Price: But I was under the impression that the Wiki licennse was an open license [14:29] You: It's a creative commons license... it's pretty open, but there are rules. [14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: it is. But for legal purposes they have to show it: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ [14:30] You: It basically says "you can't take work that someone posted here for free, and then claim it as your own." [14:31] You: So, as long as you indicate where it came from, and you share it just as freely, you should be all set. [14:31] Roken Price: So much like any gnu license then [14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: when in doubt, send an email to Rob LInden [14:31] You: Hello Simon. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. [14:31] Roken Price: You can retain the rights - but the content is open [14:31] Simon Kline: hi all! thankyou :)) [14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: he's in charge of the wiki or at least parts of it [14:32] You: Yes, Rob, and I think Liana do a lot of work with the wiki. [14:33] You: Heh. The wiki has come up a lot in the past few weeks-- I may have to expand my sphere knowledge to that area soon :-) [14:33] Saijanai Kuhn: he's edited some ofmy stuff. Maybe Liana has too [14:34] You: As I'm sure you've heard me say already, I'm largely focused on the Knowledge Base, which tends to be less technical than the wiki. [14:34] Simon Kline: the ever growing sphere of knowlege heh.. learning here is endless indeed [14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: yep [14:34] You: Quite so, Simon! [14:35] Roken Price: That's the problem with SL documentation though - no one is really sure about rights issues - we have an open source platform, that no-one can comment on safe in the knowledge that they aren't br4eaking a tabboo [14:35] Simon Kline: the knowledge base is great... i teach mentor orientaitons and ecourage new mentors to use it as their first line of research [14:35] You: I'm glad to hear that :-) [14:35] You: We'd also really appreciate any KB suggestions the Mentors can come up with, if they find something missing or unclear in the Knowledge Base. [14:35] Saijanai Kuhn: well, my rule of thum is that if I let Rob know what I'm doing, he can check it for elgal and technical issues. [14:36] Simon Kline: i guess you guys see statistics on how much the knowledge base is being used..... have you found the traffic is growing since publishing weekly on the SL blog? [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm sure some of it is. You upt the pointer to it on the login screen so people should know about it... [14:37] You: Hm. I haven't checked the numbers myself, but Jon Linden (our KB editor, who is usually here) probably has a good handle on it! [14:37] Roken Price: As a user - I find the KB less use than the JIRA [14:37] Simon Kline: ahh cool [14:37] You: How so, Roken? [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: less useful? The jira is just for bug-fixes and suggestions... [14:38] Roken Price: Jira keeps me informed of known problems - and I'm techinical ebough to know where the common problems are [14:38] Kakolcia Kanto shouts: air [14:38] You: Ahh. Yes, the KB is much more for learning about expected functionality and how the viewer -should- work :-) [14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: there are better ways of organizing that info then jira though [14:39] Roken Price: True - Jira is a minefield [14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: shameless plug: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Mono_issues [14:39] You: Saijanai, is that something that could be saved as a Jira search filter? [14:39] Simon Kline: one comment i hed about the Knowledge Base is i find it hard that I can't give ppl a direct link to a particular KB page [14:40] Roken Price: It would be nice to see a consolidated approach to issues [14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: not right now. Comments and the dubug message, if there is one, aren't part of the search results [14:40] Kakolcia Kanto shouts: heart [14:40] Simon Kline: hehe saijanai.. i accidentally crashed a sim on the test grid with the llLookAt rotatin issue.. that's all fixed now tho :D [14:41] You: Hm. Yes, that's an unfortunate situation we're trying to resolve, Simon. We'll be rolling out a Support portal renovation in about a month or so, which should fix a lot of those problems. [14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I've talked with Sidewinder and Periapse about if that could be changed but its not trivial to do [14:41] Simon Kline: oh awesome jeremy :D [14:41] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you. [14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Is it marked that way? I tried to color code the issues if they're fixed/closed/reopened etc [14:41] Krise Shepherd: hi guys sorry i am late [14:41] You: For now, though... you can use this link format: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=[article number, after the dash] [14:41] Roken Price: MAy I offer an example of where there is little accessable information [14:41] You: Hi Krise. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. [14:41] You: Welcome Kakolcia, too! [14:42] Simon Kline: ohhh TY :D this will be super handy! [14:42] Kakolcia Kanto: hi [14:42] Roken Price: The Havok 4 experiment [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: can't figure out how to do the same for Havok 44. I gues I could just do the comments in a table [14:43] Roken Price: there is no info that I can find that suggests whether he trial is now real world - or still the test gtrid [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: andrew and sidewinder hold office hours for H4 2x a week [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: its both, ROken [14:43] Becky Pippen: THat's been blogged pretty well [14:43] Simon Kline: it's now rl on over 300 sims that have agreed to test it [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: there are now 400+ sims [14:44] Becky Pippen: 435 sims this week, I think. [14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: mono is still beta only [14:44] You: True. I think Region owners have to request Havok4, but it should be on the main grid now. [14:44] Roken Price: I mean - does a standard viewer see the H4 benefit [14:44] You: The physics engine is server-side, so there should be no need for a special viewer. [14:44] Roken Price: and if so - why is there still a H4 viewre [14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: there is no "benefit" in the viewer. RIght now its stability issues [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Roken, think that is for the beta gird [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: you use that viewer andyou automatically log into the beta grid [14:45] Becky Pippen: there's one viewer for the ADITI grid, which now is running a mix of Havok 4 and Mono regions. [14:45] Zuis Mertel: Havok for is now on 300 regions on the maisn grid [14:45] Roken Price: That's my point - it isn;t vclear [14:45] Arawn Spitteler: Content to Hover is a Havoc 4 Sim, where the meetings are held. Vineland and Birmingham City are also, to my knowledge [14:46] Saijanai Kuhn: If youcheck the About Second LIfe menu under the help menu, you get info about the sim and theviewer [14:46] You: Havok4 chat is better reserved for Havok4 office hours, though... I don't know much about it, other than what you guys know :-) [14:47] Roken Price: I'm a "simple" user - with all the viewers up and running [14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: you know as much as me. I don't do physics testing/scripting [14:47] Roken Price: But I lose track of demarcation [14:47] Becky Pippen: There's good stuff in the blog and wiki, but .... anything in the KB? [14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: Roken, if any viewer if you use the help menu and select "About Second LIfe" you will get info [14:48] You: Beta viewer shortcuts usually have the beta server name (ADITI, for instance) in parentheses in their name. [14:48] You: Oh, about beta viewers, Becky? [14:48] Becky Pippen: just that there's one for ADITI, which runs a mix of sim versions [14:48] Roken Price: I understand that - but that doesn;t tell me where - eg - the havok veiwer is required when real world testing is underway [14:49] Becky Pippen: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok_4_Beta_Home [14:49] You: Well, ADITI doesn't always use a mix of sim versions... it's a beta environment, which means that the sims there change depending on what we're testing. [14:49] Roken Price: Becky - you kiss my point [14:49] Roken Price: miss - I mean [14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: oken, therei s no H4 viewer [14:49] Roken Price: Fruedian slip [14:49] Becky Pippen: :-) [14:49] Zuis Mertel: Roken is server side , not viwer [14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: its a viewer that takes you to the beta grid [14:50] Roken Price: No - but there is a test viewer that takes you to the test grid [14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: you can travel to a H4 sim using any viewer and get the same "benefits" from Havok 4 [14:50] Arawn Spitteler: Technically, the Havoc 4 upgrade is not supposed to be Client Side Visible, so any KB article is either historical, or describing a bug [14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: and there are 300-400 sims here [14:50] Roken Price: And so - the documentation doessn't make it clear [14:51] Saijanai Kuhn: using H4 so you don't even need to use the beta grid to test it unless it is a really spiffy (dangerous to the sim) test [14:51] Becky Pippen: hmmm... I've found the information in the blog and wiki to be pretty clear... I guess I'm missing something too :-) [14:52] You: Hm. This may call for an article on the difference between Havok1 and Havok4. We do have an article on the "heterogeneous grid" project, which aims to mix Havok1/Havok4, Mono/LSL2 and other sim types on the same grid. [14:52] Roken Price: OK - Let me put it a different way [14:52] Roken Price: The Blog says - There's a new havok 4 viewre avaialble [14:52] Roken Price: And right after that [14:53] Zuis Mertel: Roken this is on avok 4 http://slurl.com/secondlife/100Limite/103/101/24 [14:53] Roken Price: an offer to sims to upgrade to H4 [14:53] You: regarding het-grid: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=4560 [14:53] Roken Price: My point is - you have to hunt for the info [14:54] Roken Price: When an announcement is blogged [14:54] Roken Price: it should be clear [14:54] Zuis Mertel: is a good point ;-) [14:54] You: Roken- the latest Havok4 blog post said there was a new viewer availabled? [14:54] You: er, available? [14:55] Roken Price: And you prove my point [14:55] Becky Pippen: ? [14:55] Roken Price: Havok 4 doesn't require a new client [14:56] You: It doesn't appear to-- it looks like just what it said: 435 regions were updated with fixes. Regions are server-side things, and require no new viewer. [14:56] Simon Kline: the hetgrid article is a good on :D [14:57] Simon Kline: clear and to the point without complicating it :D [14:57] You: Hi Rosario. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. [14:57] You: Heh. Glad you like it, Simon. Clear and to the point is a key concept in online writing :-) [14:57] Simon Kline: and it mentons mono so i thought it would've been modified recently but it says it was modified 8/16/07 [14:58] You: That looks like it was originally a blog post. It would be interesting to see when the original post was made. [14:59] Simon Kline: no u mention it i do remeber a simmilar blog post [15:00] Simon Kline: are you guys thinking of doing an article concerning mono and what it is? [15:00] Simon Kline: or even a list of words used in sl with basic definitions like the SL dictionary [15:01] You: We should, Simon. Usually we wait until something hits the main grid before committing to an article about it. Otherwise, the feature can be subject to a lot of change before it's done. [15:01] Simon Kline: yeah so true that's understandable :D [15:01] You: I think we may have a glossary somewhere, Simon. If we don't, we should! [15:01] Becky Pippen: I helped make a glossary for NCI [15:01] Becky Pippen: it's freely available [15:01] Simon Kline: haha glossary! that's the word is was looking for heh [15:01] You: Here's one... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Glossary [15:02] You: Not too complete, but a good start. [15:02] Simon Kline: hehe indeed :D [15:02] You: Anyway, does anyoen have any final comments or questions before we wind down for this week? [15:03] Simon Kline: no thanks Jeremy, thankyou for your time! it was great seeing you ^^ [15:03] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you. [15:03] Becky Pippen: Thanks Jeremy! [15:03] WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you. [15:03] You: It was great to have you all here! I think this may be the largest crowd I've had here so far :-) [15:03] Krise Shepherd: yeah thanks [15:03] Arawn Spitteler: I was actually looking for the Official Scripting Guide, Secrets of Scripting, but couldn't find a way there, from F1 [15:03] You: And we touched on some good topics, too! [15:04] You: Hm. Arawn, I think you can get there from Help > Scripting Guide [15:04] Simon Kline: if you click help in the viewer, you can see scripting guide and the scripting portal too ^^ [15:04] Arawn Spitteler: Wrong turn, on my part, but it should also have been somewhere through F1 [15:06] You: Hm. True. We're working on improving F1 help as well. It's our aim to get it to bring up the Support portal in an inworld browser window. [15:08] Simon Kline: nice the inworld browser works really well now...very basic but does the job.. if u go to something like help.. in world help you can type in any web address and it comes up there :D [15:08] You: Indeed! [15:09] You: Anyway, I think we need to wrap up for this week. Thanks for coming everyone! Please come again :-) [15:09] Simon Kline: thankyou Jeremy [15:09] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you. [15:09] Simon Kline: have a good weekend :D [15:09] Becky Pippen: Bye [15:09] Arawn Spitteler: Help Island has something refering to F1, so people might go there, rather than the Help Menu, until they learn better, and there shouldn't, in principle, be better to learn [15:09] You: You too. [15:09] Zuis Mertel: thankyou Jeremy ;-) [15:09] WidgetHUD v1.1: Zuis Mertel has pinged you. [15:09] Saijanai Kuhn: nice meeting you Jeremy6 [15:09] WidgetHUD v1.1: Saijanai Kuhn has pinged you. [15:09] Simon Kline: if any of you are looking for something to do after this Jeska linen's office hour is on at Ambleside hehe :D [15:09] You: Likewise! [15:10] You: Heh. Jeska's great :-) [15:10] Krise Shepherd: have a nice weekend everybody :-) [15:10] Arawn Spitteler: Remember to tell Jon of the Hundred ravening beasts, that only wanted to tear off his claw [15:10] You: Bye! Have a good weekend! [15:10] Krise Shepherd: btw i have a presentation on sl on monday [15:10] Krise Shepherd: to a big customer in germany [15:10] You: Cool! [15:10] Arawn Spitteler: My map is trying to send me two hundred meters above ambleside? [15:11] Arawn Spitteler: I think it's a new featuree [15:11] Krise Shepherd: they want to invest into branding and sl is an option for them [15:11] Simon Kline: hehe ambleside 13/92 in the bottom corner .. tc all gret seeing you :D [15:13] You: Okey doke.... later everyone, for real this time :-)