User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 05 08

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:02]	Creem Pye:	howdy
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hi
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hiii...
[17:03]	Kitto Flora:	Thats weird
[17:03]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Hi all
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	I have yet to see the Iron Man movie -- perhaps this weekend.
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	i heard is good
[17:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so did you enter in that contest, Rex?
[17:03]	Creem Pye:	damn gotta go already. hopefulyl I can get back before the meeting's over
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	what contest?
[17:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Second LIfe Iron Man costume. First prize is $L150,000
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	r u kidding?
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	i just like it. i had no idea there was a contest. do u happen to know where can i get more info about it?
[17:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Excuse only L$125,000 http://www.theppc.com/silverscreen/2008/04/iron-man-cometh.html
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	thanks for the info sai
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	:)
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, first announcement is that I'm "GridMonkey" this week (Wed --> Next Wed)
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Which means I've got a pager but hopefully it won't go off.
[17:07]	Cinthya Loveless:	Andrew or Simon is there a fix for hugs coming? as the hugs now are very jumpy the hugger bounces alot
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	We now have a devoted team (DNOC) that works to keep the SL service up and running, and they are *almost* 24/7
[17:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah ok, is mechanima contst, not costume contest
[17:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	http://www.theppc.com/silverscreen/competitions/ironman/
[17:07]	Yuu Nakamichi:	dnoc?
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	Cinthya - no, not that I know of. It was discussed at our meeting recently, so it's on our radar. We will get to it
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	DNOC = distributed network operations something or other
[17:08]	Cinthya Loveless:	okay Simon
[17:08]	Yuu Nakamichi:	gotcha
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Cynthia, I recently trie to fix a hugger. The "Lost Dog" one I think.
[17:09]	Cinthya Loveless:	did you get it Fixed Andrew?
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	I thought it would be related to the avatr shape, but I expanded the avatar shape as much as I thought possible and the hugger I had was still a little too close in, it seemed.
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	It was not clear to me how well exactly it worked in Havok1 and I was crazy busy for getting some fixes in by some deadline.
[17:09]	Cinthya Loveless:	do you see the person giving the hug bouncing up and down really fast when you test then Andrew?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	Turns out... we missed the deadline anyway, but I left the small changes I had made. I was hoping that it would fix one or more of the hugger reports anyway.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	That code is checked in, but not deployed yet... and it all missed the deadline for the next deploy anyway, I think.
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	i do have a question about h4. why does llsetscale only work on the prim that contains the script. in h1 it worked on the whole link set
[17:11]	Cinthya Loveless:	well good to know its coming
[17:11]	Cinthya Loveless:	eventualy
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	?
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Also... the avatar drifting up/down bug is going to be the death of me. It seems fixed whenever I check it but our tester claims that the "hover up" bug sometimes still happens.
[17:12]	Yuu Nakamichi:	there's a jira fro that rex
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	do u happen to knwo the nr for that jira, yuu?
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... llSetScale() used to apply to the whole object?
[17:12]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I'll try to find it
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	yes it did
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	now i have to put scale scripts in each prim
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	what, so llSetScale(<1,1,1>) would set every prim to <1,1,1>?
[17:13]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I don't think so.
[17:13]	Kara Spengler:	have seen a strange one sometimes .... sliding sideways
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	the bounding box was set to 1
[17:13]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The LSL wiki definitely says the opposite, and hasn't been modified recently.
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	well, anyway that llSetScale() bug doesn't sound hard to fix if it is really a bug.
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	For what its worth: From the LSL web pages: Resizing Linked Sets: In a linked object, this function only changes the size of the prim the script is in. There is no simple way to scale a whole linked object. Scale each individual child prim and adjust its position in relation to the parent prim.
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	i had a object that when clicked was resizing it
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee... what else is on the news...
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	Better check what llSetScale does in root of linked set in H1, on Preview.
[17:16]	Yuu Nakamichi:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1662
[17:17]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I think that touches on it
[17:17]	Kitto Flora:	LSL web pages have been wrong before.
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Despite the fact that not all Havok4 bugs are fixed, the Havok4 team is slowly winding down...
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	which sims are h1 on beta, kitto?
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	are u making preparations for havok6:)
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	We're still working on bugs, but will be adjusting our commit/test/merge strategies to agree with other normal "projects"
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	with respect to how we coordinate our changes with other changes in the pipeline
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	for a whiel there we were sorta cutting in line in the deploy process
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	btw the script that scaled was in the root prim
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	Rex: I dont know without going to Beta and looking at the ground.
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	np. i will go there
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I mentioned last meeting that I would try to compile a list of future projects to work on, and perhaps you all could vote on them
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	to sorta help me decide priority
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't finished compiling the list
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	and chat records are perhaps not the best way to collate input
[17:20]	Rex Cronon:	flexi sculpties?
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	so I was thinking perhaps we could take some time to brainstorm/remember what some of those projects are...
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	The ones I've already got down are:
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	(1) shape hints ( (a) boxify all prims, (b) convex hull of the whole, and (c) small prims automatically phantom)
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	(2) static objects collide across region boundaries
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	(3) new vehicle actions (such as (a) airplane specific action or (b) boat specific action)
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	(4) more features for general vehicles (I can't remember them all yet but we definitely kicked a few around in the past)
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	And that is it... the "prim encroachment" problem I didn't include since it is already in progress
[17:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Per Prim Phantom! :D
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody remember other items, or have some others?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, (5) per prim phantom
[17:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	llUnSitTarget
[17:24]	Rex Cronon:	increasing nr of prims for in physical linked sets
[17:24]	Kitto Flora:	Are you considering just physics items?
[17:25]	Rex Cronon:	maybe is about time we had cars made of more thatn 32 prims
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I guess we could also include (6) hierachy in linked sets... but that is a biggie
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	not just physics specific required... just things I might work on
[17:25]	Rex Cronon:	#6. yes
[17:26]	Kitto Flora:	Would you consider any long-time bugs?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	however... I'm inclined to only include the "easier" features on the list right now
[17:26]	Rex Cronon:	i think if u ask anyboyd about that they will say yes
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	many of the big projects have prerequisites or just won't be on the short-term list
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	oh. i know i have something:)
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	yes Kitto, long-time bugs would be considered
[17:27]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Did I mention a settable unsit target? That's an easy one, right? :)
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	VOLUME DETECT, on attachments:)
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, new LSL calls aren't too hard, however they are on hold until MONO settles down
[17:28]	Kitto Flora:	In the most obnoxious bug department: Trashing of no-copy inventory when given by a muted Avatar
[17:28]	Rex Cronon:	there are so many shields that have to scan like crazy to detect incomming projectiles
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unfamiliar with that bug Kitto. Could you elaborate?
[17:29]	Kitto Flora:	If you Mute me, and I then drop to you a no-copy object, its not refused, its not sent back to me, its put in YOU inventory in YOUR trash. Its effectively lost.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	ok and what should the proper behavior be? I guess it should be returned to sender.
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	Also If I IM you that I dropped you the object, YOU dont see the IM, and I'm not told you have me muted.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	ack, I fear the inventory system
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	I think proper behavior for any attempted comms/inv transfers over a muted link is to do nothing and diplay a warning message
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew ALL the residents fear the inventory system. It steals from our pockets.
[17:31]	Cinthya Loveless:	I've seen newbs alot accdently mute people when trying to close the persons profile as muting someone doesn't act for conformation, so often they don't even know they did
[17:31]	Cinthya Loveless:	ask*
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	WORS yet....
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	If you MUTE a vendor, then buy from it it TAKES your money and gives you Nothing.
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Mute is a disaster....
[17:33]	Rex Cronon:	sadly muting also doesn't mute dialog boxes comming from objects belonging to the muted person
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	add oe more...
[17:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	thats interesting. Isn't it the same UDP packet?
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	When I discovered one of these bugs and started looking on jira I got a raft of entries going back months.
[17:34]	Cinthya Loveless:	it does under the Rc viewer it makes the person a grey avatar with out atttachemnts or anything muting in Rc 6
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... sounds like muting needs work
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	amen, brodda!
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	I'll group muting bugs into one item when I compile a survey
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	and you can all vote on whether I should work on muting or not
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	aren't physics more interesting?
[17:35]	Kitto Flora:	less obnoxios long term bugs: just been there for ever... Sound sequencing.
[17:35]	Ellla McMahon:	Kitty if you buy a no-copy item from a muted vendor does it go into your trash .. like you were explaining at the beginning
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	btw, I may very well end up working on something completely different from the votes, however I don't think the input will be wasted. I'll try to get others to work on whatever I don't.
[17:35]	Kitto Flora:	Ella, from what I read it goes nowhere
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	Sound sequencing... more context please.
[17:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not the same UDP https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ChatFromViewer
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	PlaySound followed by loop sound often loos just the first sound
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	loops
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	This with any combination of set sound queuing
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	I abandont sound queuing totally, use hard time
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	BUT even with that, the first time you hear an object make saounds
[17:38]	Kitto Flora:	the looping is messed up
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I noted sound sequencing
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Then theres 'particles are offset when emitted from a moving physical'
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	ooo
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yes that one is annoying.
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	EG _ see the smike coming from my steam engine
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	what do u mean offset?
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	smoke even :)
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	oof, that is a render-bug and outside my normal haunts
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Yep
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Its a render bug of the OBJECT, not the particles.
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	Wouldnt you like to do rend ering Andrew :)
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	I've noticed the bug in question... jets often leave little jet particles behind, when those particles should follow the object that emitted them
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	No thats a different thing
[17:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	What I notice is particles appearing IN FRONT of the moving object that's dropping them.
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	Right Gaius
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	ok, then explain the distinction
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	oh
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	But whats really going on is that the object is being rendered a couple of frames late
[17:41]	Rex Cronon:	oh. why do particles emited from huds have to start from <0,0,0>?
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	particles from huds? The y fog your screen?
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	What do you mean Rex? I'm unfamiliar with that problem.
[17:42]	Rex Cronon:	if u have an HUD that emits particles, those particles start from <0,0,0> in sim
[17:43]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I've noticed a similar dealy in rendering with moving obejcts in general
[17:43]	Yuu Nakamichi:	say boats in the water - when viewed from afar
[17:43]	Kitto Flora:	(Yes, and its the object thats being sat on thats delayed)
[17:43]	Yuu Nakamichi:	render jerky, or late
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	ok so that sounds like a simple bug Rex
[17:44]	Kitto Flora:	So if you go in a sim, wearing a hud that has particle emmiting script, the particles come out of <0,0,0> in the sim???
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	is a bug right? not a feature
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	i am doing that right now
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	u see the particles?
[17:44]	Yuu Nakamichi:	there is quite a lot of machinima footage out there to document that rendering jerkiness / delay
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	what does it mean to have a HUD emit particles?... only the wearer of the HUD should see them
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	but they should render relative to the HUD object
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	i want to find people
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	and other things
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	I dont see any particles at 0 0 0 but may be too far away
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	find?
[17:46]	Rex Cronon:	i have something i made. let me rezz it:)
[17:46]	Cinthya Loveless:	those make me think im lagging
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	ok, so it rezzes some particle emitters that move toward nearby avatars
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	i use it to find people, scripted/unscripted things
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	You want the particles to be able to track the avatar without the object?
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	spammers
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	no
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	when i make this object an HUD, i want the particlesto be generated from my position
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	ah I see
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	Thats a nifty idea
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	and that would be a wearer-only effect
[17:49]	Rex Cronon:	for everybody
[17:49]	Rex Cronon:	lets say i want to search for a text spammer
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... you'd have to do it from a visible attachement then, I fear.
[17:49]	Rex Cronon:	i want everybody to see where that objects is located so they can mute it
[17:49]	Rex Cronon:	too bad
[17:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah, a HUD attachment should only be visible by the person wearing it, including particles. But wearing such an attachment as you suggestion on your hand would work.
[17:50]	Kitto Flora:	You can design around the missing feature using a worn object and private chat between hud and worn object
[17:50]	Creem Pye:	I dont' believe particles work in HUDs at all
[17:50]	Rex Cronon:	i know kitto
[17:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Well they oughta :)
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	The hud could communicate with the visible attachment perhaps, if you really wanted the HUD interactivity effect
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	i just showed u that particles get generated from 0 when is a hud
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	right now
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	I think particles should work on huds. How cool would a smoking HUD be?
[17:51]	Creem Pye:	hehe that would be fun...
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	yes, for that too
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	Would it be FDA approved?
[17:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I would definitely like to see particles working in HUDs, but they should emit from the object just like they normally do.
[17:52]	Rex Cronon:	i turned particles off
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	hehe, ok a burning hud
[17:52]	Yuu Nakamichi:	re. rendering delays -> have a look at any of these videos
[17:52]	Yuu Nakamichi:	http://www.slcn.tv/sailon
[17:52]	Rex Cronon:	what would be really cool, is if particles have a target, than they should start from where i am at, not from zero
[17:53]	Yuu Nakamichi:	they show most of the problems with vehicles moving acorss region borders as well as the metioned delays
[17:53]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I think that is one area LL should concentrate on
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah, theres a vid on UTUBE that shows the rendering delays, as well as packet loss jumpies.
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	what is that Yuu? border crossings in general? Or vehicles crossing borders?
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	The "static objects collide across region boundaries" would be related to some boundary crossing problems.
[17:54]	Yuu Nakamichi:	vehicles are lifted and move unpredictably at crossings
[17:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If I had to pick priority #1, it's be fixing whatever problems are preventing a move to more than 32 prims in a physical object.
[17:54]	Yuu Nakamichi:	i.e. "fly off"
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	That problem in particular.
[17:54]	Cinthya Loveless:	I really don't like how things are rendered now days makes party of prim hair invisible at distance leaving bald spots on the avatar and pieces of prim clothing unrezzed at distances
[17:54]	Yuu Nakamichi:	they render in different places along a path
[17:54]	Yuu Nakamichi:	to an outside viewer (bystander, judge)
[17:54]	Yuu Nakamichi:	(umpire)
[17:54]	Yuu Nakamichi:	while the same does not occur to the vehicle operator
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, the "shape hints -- use convex hull for prim collection" could be used to get high-prim (convex) vehicles
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	Cynthia : Tou sounds like Avatar LOD setting
[17:55]	Yuu Nakamichi:	there are several issues
[17:55]	Creem Pye:	well gaius, I think 32 prims can provide adequate physics detail for most physical objects, but it would be nice if we could add extra prims to vehicles that don't then affect the physics
[17:55]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I'm not sure if and how they are connected, Andrew
[17:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Wee! Okay, make that the #1 think on the list then. Actually, you did, didn't you. :)
[17:55]	Cinthya Loveless:	how do i change the setting Kitto?
[17:55]	Creem Pye votes for it :D
[17:55]	Yuu Nakamichi:	but take the time to look at just one of these videos
[17:55]	Yuu Nakamichi:	if you can
[17:56]	Yuu Nakamichi:	and you'll see most of them I'm sure
[17:56]	Creem Pye:	by the way andrew, do you see llSetScale() working in dynamic objects anytime soon?
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	Cynthia: Advanced/Avatar/Disable LOD
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	Give that a try
[17:56]	Creem Pye:	(I guess it's a bug how it doesn't work now)
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, that is a possibility... currently Havok4 has penetration resolution built-in
[17:56]	Cinthya Loveless:	Thanks Kitto
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	If we could optimize some of the shape rebuilding stuff we might be able to relax llSetScale restrictions
[17:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not to change the subject, but who was working on performance issues? That was Simon, right?
[17:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	btw, one funky little thing I noticed is that even with H4, thin shelled physical items can bounce through each other on occassion
[17:57]	Creem Pye:	ah, but I thought changing the PRIM_TYPE would already require some of that shape rebuilding
[17:57]	Yuu Nakamichi:	by along the path issue I mean -> they seem to be jumping back and forth along their presumed path as you observe them - this makes umpiring impossible as you can't say what is really happening
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, Simon has been working on the periodic lag in "void regions" today
[17:58]	Yuu Nakamichi:	ah
[17:58]	Yuu Nakamichi:	any news?
[17:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	How about non-periodic lag? The general physics is taking way too much time problem?
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	Yuu: Yes, that effect has been getting worse and worse with recent RC versions
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	I pinged Simon on another channel. Perhaps he'll wake up.
[17:58]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yes I agree Kitto
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Simon has also been working on lag in general -- looking for hot-spots in the code for particulary laggy content
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	Go Simon!
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I visited a sim the other day after checking out a problem report from a customer with my teleport system of all things, and the lag in the sim was so bad it was interfering with simple chat-based communications between objects.
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	I think he has some diagnostics that are internal waiting to get out
[17:59]	Creem Pye:	were the messages dropped or just heavily delayed, gaius?
[17:59]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yes I've seen that too Gaius
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I was going to ask if he wanted a landmark.
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Since he's sleeping I guess I'll just lob it at him and he can do what he likes with it. :p
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	Gaius, what was the TD in that sim?
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The TD was all over but almost always bad. Physics time was generally between 30-50ms
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Overloases, X 10.
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Overloaded
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	But it was fine under Havok1 apparently.
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Lots of scripted physicals?
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yup
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	Well - sim cant stand it
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	Overload and you lag
[18:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right. The point being, it wasn't overload under Havok1, but it's damn near unusable under Havok4.
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	I se that in void sims, and class 4 sims...
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	ok well I've got to run
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	Occupants have to strip stuff out
[18:02]	Ellla McMahon:	thank you Andrew :)
[18:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Might be a good test-cast to look at for performance issues.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[18:03]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Andrew
[18:03]	Yuu Nakamichi:	thanks Andrew
[18:03]	Cinthya Loveless:	bye Andrew see you next time
[18:03]	Creem Pye:	and let me add that 4096x4096m islands would be great ;)
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	nice having u here
[18:03]	Creem Pye:	even if the extra space is just ocean =)
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew