Difference between revisions of "Mesh/Archive/2012-11-05"

Latest revision as of 13:15, 26 November 2012

Agenda

Is it possible to provide more info regarding develop -> redermetadata since some of these are really handy to evaluate mesh object and to have a better understanding of the complete picture [Zed Tremont]
We know that the highest o the calculation values in the uploader is what sets the LI. If the physics is the highest contributor, that can be fixed with a custom physics mesh. What, specifically, should we be looking to do to our model that effects "Download" and what effects "Server", so we know the difference, in more laymen like terms, and how we can lower LI through changing the model to affect Download or Server values? [Eleanora Newell]
Is it on purpose that the exact values of the default Avatar can not be reached with the SL shape editor ? i.e.: When i set a default value to itself with a slider, then the new (true) floating point value sometimes differs slightly from the default. This makes trouble with external tools, because it is not clear how to support this in a meaningful way. Is there any chance for a fix such that all default values can be set by the SL sliders ? [Gaia Clary]

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday November 5, 2012

[11:59]	Nyx Linden	greetings all
[12:00]	Eleanora Newell	hihi
[12:00]	peetee Jewell	Hi Nyx
[12:00]	Sera Lok	hello^^
[12:01]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	I see 3.4.1 is not set for release
[12:01]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	now*
[12:02]	Nyx Linden	a bit light on topics this week, feel free to add more: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)	Hi:-)
[12:02]	Aki Shichiroji	Greetings
[12:03]	Darien Caldwell	not a topic, but just a FYI, Runitai just posted a build of the Mesh Upload fix that's been highly anticipated by many. Link is on the Jira: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3055
[12:04]	Darien Caldwell	pre-beta, so at your own risk ^.^
[12:04]	Eleanora Newell	thanks, darien
[12:05]	Nyx Linden	first topic: "Is it possible to provide more info regarding develop -> redermetadata since some of these are really handy to evaluate mesh object and to have a better understanding of the complete picture [Zed Tremont]"
[12:06]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	:)
[12:07]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	Quite a few of those can be handy to evaluate sims/objects
[12:07]	Darien Caldwell	the only info on the wiki I have found is this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Viktoria_Dovgal/bbox
[12:07]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	only I haven't dound any legend
[12:07]	Nyx Linden	so this is one of the debugging options we use to test our graphical systems. Zed you passed me a notecard regarding specific points you had questions on, mind if I share that list?
[12:07]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	Indeed Darien
[12:08]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	Of course it can be shared
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	the short answer is that we can certainly provide more documentation, and I'll let our doc team know that there is interest in having more formal documentation around this.
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	informally we can try and answer a few of those here.
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	1. Bounding boxes:
[12:09]	Nyx Linden	14 Build queu
[12:09]	Nyx Linden	long list, but we currently don't have any other topics this week so let's dive in
[12:10]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	long list indeed :P
[12:10]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	If somebody likes it on a NC I can pass it if not done already
[12:11]	LRaven Avedon	hey guys
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	first: 1. Bounding boxes:
[12:14]	Nyx Linden	admittedly a lot of these things I'm going to have to look up myself :)
[12:14]	Eleanora Newell	nyx, i also added to the agenda
[12:15]	Nyx Linden	so at a high level the bounding boxes show the bounding box for various objects in the scene, the layers, thickneses, etc I will have to look up
[12:17]	Nyx Linden	at the moment our documentation around this is the source code, most of these displays are mostly used by our graphics engineers, they're not intended to be general-use displays (hence the lack of documentation)
[12:17]	Nyx Linden	2. Normals -> what exactly
[12:18]	LRaven Avedon	someone pls tell me what is happening here? :/
[12:18]	Nyx Linden	hi LRaven, we're having a meeting here discussing various content creation topics
[12:18]	Nyx Linden	the agenda is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:18]	LRaven Avedon	oh really??? shit. sorry to interrupt. i didnt know. LOL
[12:18]	Liisa Runo	you are welcome to join us
[12:18]	Nyx Linden	we're currently on the first topic discussing the develop->render metadata topic
[12:19]	LRaven Avedon	i dun knw anything bout this meeting of urs. im just a normal SL user for socialising.
[12:19]	Nyx Linden	you're welcome to stick around if you'd like and ask questions. Additional topics should be posted on the wiki
[12:19]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)	Hello LRaven
[12:19]	LRaven Avedon	oh. tats nice. =)
[12:20]	LRaven Avedon	oh. hey =)
[12:20]	Nyx Linden	the normals display shows a line that represents the normal vector, or what direction a particular triangle or surface "faces"
[12:20]	Nyx Linden	3. Octree -> what exactly
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	The octree display shows how the world is divided up into different "zones" for purposes of updating, etc. You see colors change as various items need to get updated - the higher the frequency of updates, the more load
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	you can see a bunch of updates happen as you zoom in and out
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	4. Shadow frusta
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	this deals with our shadow rendering, its more for devleopers, less helpful for creators
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	5. Physics shape:
[12:23]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	This one I use regularly now
[12:23]	Nyx Linden	physics shapes are more helpful, as it shows you what shapes the server uses for detecting collisions. This is particularly important for imported meshes and pathfinding characters
[12:23]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	To see if, if not it is wise to use convex hull or for mesh
[12:24]	Nyx Linden	exactly. This is probably the most useful one for creators trying to optimize their content
[12:24]	Drongle McMahon	I shows you that the default convex hull is smaller than it should be!
[12:25]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	Indeed but you regularly get see colour codes
[12:25]	Drongle McMahon	Or has that been fixed now?
[12:26]	Nyx Linden	the colors are determined in the code, I'll have to look up what the various ones mean
[12:26]	Drongle McMahon	Blue=good, red=bad
[12:26]	Eleanora Newell	:)
[12:26]	Darien Caldwell	yes I heard that hehe
[12:26]	Darien Caldwell	though what = bad would be good to know
[12:26]	Nyx Linden	more or less yes
[12:26]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	True
[12:27]	Nyx Linden	6. occlusion tris visible
[12:27]	Nyx Linden	this is a debugging display for our rendering engine, shouldn't really be relevant
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	most of these are fairly technical in nature, only a handful of them are potentially useful actually
[12:29]	Nyx Linden	I'll skip around a bit for the purpose of brevity
[12:30]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	Render badges?
[12:30]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	If we can see how rendering of certain spots on a sim goes
[12:30]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	we might be able to detect problem areas on sims
[12:31]	Nyx Linden	render batches are groups of content that can be drawn together in one pass. Every time you change the properties of an object (textures active, shiny, etc). then the whole pipeline needs to stop in reset, so batching things is good
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	the next relevant display is collision skeleton, which shows you the bones that your camera can focus on for picking
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	next important would be "render complexity" which uses the display weight algorithm to give a "score" to each avatar in view as to how complex they are to draw
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	there actually is documentation on this one! Keeping these numbers low will help with your performance.
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	use the "display weight" metric in the build tools while working on attachments to help here
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	attachment bytes - shows how much data is needed to store each avatar's attachments
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	and sculpt - shows the size of the sculpt maps used in sculptie objects
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	we have a couple other topics to get to, are there any immediate questions here?
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon	Eleanora is 0.0Kb!
[12:38]	Nyx Linden	I'll talk with our doc team to see if we can get the ones that would be helpful for builders documented better
[12:38]	Eleanora Newell	yay
[12:38]	Nyx Linden	please note that these are internal developer tools and could change at any time
[12:38]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Nyx, I can't turn "render complexity" to checked.
[12:38]	Tillie Ariantho	Where do I display those values?
[12:38]	Nyx Linden	(anything under 'develop' is subject to change)
[12:38]	Qie Niangao	Yuzuru, me neither.
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	hrm, looks like a bug :)
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	you should still be able to use the display weight while creating objects, I'll look at the debug display for avatar numbers
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	moving on
[12:39]	Drongle McMahon	You can turn it on under Advanced->Performance....
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "We know that the highest o the calculation values in the uploader is what sets the LI. If the physics is the highest contributor, that can be fixed with a custom physics mesh. What, specifically, should we be looking to do to our model that effects "Download" and what effects "Server", so we know the difference, in more laymen like terms, and how we can lower LI through changing the model to affect Download or Server values? [Eleanora Newell]"
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	great question!
[12:40]	Tillie Ariantho	Ok... Cool VL Viewer has no advanced/performance. ;)
[12:40]	Tillie Ariantho	Seems to be the Info Displays...
[12:41]	Drongle McMahon	The others are in the Develop menu .... I can't remember how to turn that on.
[12:41]	Nyx Linden	so the details for the weight algorithms are in the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Technical_Overview (see the box in the right)
[12:42]	Drongle McMahon	If you like maths, you could also look at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Download-weight-and-size-Some-graphs/m-p/1058609#M5642
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	"streaming" or "download" weight is the geometric complexity of the model you are uploading. You can reduce this by reducing the number of triangles in your model, or adjusting how much your LODs downscale the number of vertices
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Streaming_Cost
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	"server" weight is less easy to affect, as it sets a weight for how many pieces or prims an object is broken up into, and whether those prims are considered "dynamic"
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Server_Weight
[12:43]	Drongle McMahon	Basically ... minimising the complexity of the lowest relevant LOD for the mesh size will have the greatest effect in lowering streaming weight.
[12:44]	Eleanora Newell	nyx, can we rez here?
[12:44]	Eleanora Newell	yes, drongle, that seems to be key
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	prefer to rez on the grassy hill immediately to the west, but yes, just a sec
[12:44]	Darien Caldwell	the Grassy Knoll heh
[12:45]	Nyx Linden	build is on, feel free to rez examples
[12:45]	Drongle McMahon	There are fixed cutoff sizes above which each lower LOD becomes irrelevant.
[12:45]	Drongle McMahon	A cube!
[12:46]	Eleanora Newell	heh
[12:46]	Eleanora Newell	i'm still working on the lower lods on this
[12:46]	Nyx Linden	indeed, if an object is small enough that we never actually use LODs, then the lower LODs aren't relevant to the cost
[12:47]	Eleanora Newell	it was 25K tris for level one
[12:47]	Darien Caldwell	yeh, that's a lot
[12:47]	Eleanora Newell	yes
[12:47]	Nyx Linden	that's a ton of triangles for an object that size
[12:47]	Eleanora Newell	normally i don't do that much
[12:48]	Eleanora Newell	this is the kind of thing that the normal maps will soooo be good for
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	there are some good quality full avatars that weigh in under 10k triangles
[12:48]	Eleanora Newell	yes
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	indeed, hopefully normal maps will help in these types of situations
[12:49]	Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)	Imagine the opposing I made a huge bridge element of 60*80 due to the size it wan't get fast on LOD2 so this one could be reduced also a lot I presume. Impossible to upload in aditi yesterday
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	please do report back if you're able to remake it with normal maps in the future and let us know how many triangles you are able to save :)
[12:49]	Eleanora Newell	actually, that is on my list, so i will
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	thanks!
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	does that answer your question on weights?
[12:49]	Eleanora Newell	i have one with 65K that is even better, and that's the one i'm trying with a normal map
[12:50]	Eleanora Newell	yes, nyx, ty
[12:50]	Drongle McMahon	Nyx .... I think it's the other way round. Big objects never use the lower LODs .... small ones nearly always use the lowest LOD unless you are very close.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	moving on then :)
[12:50]	Aki Shichiroji	/me agrees.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	you're right Drongle, I misspoke :)
[12:50]	Eleanora Newell	i would agree, drongle
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "Is it on purpose that the exact values of the default Avatar can not be reached with the SL shape editor ? i.e.: When i set a default value to itself with a slider, then the new (true) floating point value sometimes differs slightly from the default. This makes trouble with external tools, because it is not clear how to support this in a meaningful way. Is there any chance for a fix such that all default values can be set by the SL sliders ? [Gaia Clary]"
[12:51]	Darien Caldwell	Gaia couldn't come, and asked me to be her proxy
[12:51]	Eleanora Newell	heh, yes, we spoke as well
[12:51]	Darien Caldwell	I think i already know the answers hehe
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	I don't believe this was on purpose
[12:51]	Darien Caldwell	to give an example,
[12:52]	Darien Caldwell	Saddlebags morph ranges from -0.5 to 3.0
[12:52]	Darien Caldwell	so at it's default of 0, that comes out to a slider of 14
[12:52]	Darien Caldwell	but in reality, the value is 14.285714285714286
[12:52]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	This has to do with the way we send parameters encoded as 8 bits in some contexts.
[12:52]	Nyx Linden	we've been running into some similar quirks as we've been trying to work on server side avatar appearance / texture baking.
[12:52]	Darien Caldwell	so later if someone enters a value of 14 to set it to 'default'
[12:52]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	Can't fix without a big overhaul, unfortunately :-(
[12:53]	Darien Caldwell	the morph actually set to -0.010
[12:53]	Darien Caldwell	i imagine high accuracy was just never seen to be a necessity
[12:53]	Darien Caldwell	and until mesh and the deformer, probably wasn't one
[12:54]	Eleanora Newell	nods
[12:54]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	I think in the early days there was a lot of concern about minimizing network bandwidth.
[12:54]	Nyx Linden	there are three number spaces - the sliders have 100 points of accuracy, the individual morphs are floating point values with varying ranges, and we send a single byte over the network. the translation from one number space to the others is not always 100% accurate
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon	Can't you just make the sliders emit the right values?
[12:55]	Darien Caldwell	I see
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon	Make them 0..255
[12:55]	Darien Caldwell	the network aspect is part I wasn't aware of
[12:55]	Nyx Linden	over the network, there are 256 possible values for each parameter, that are then expanded into the floating point values
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	it was done to make the avatar appearance messages as small as possible
[12:56]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	255 I think actually :P
[12:57]	Nyx Linden	0 to 255 :)
[12:57]	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)	ah, figures
[12:57]	Drongle McMahon	Use 0..255 and a lookup table on the server?
[12:57]	Eleanora Newell	256, 0 to 255
[12:57]	Eleanora Newell	chat lag
[12:57]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	There are also some bugs in the way we do the conversions - I'm a bit afraid to touch it for fear of introducing some change in people's content.
[12:58]	Darien Caldwell	Gaia and Magus re-created the slider system in Blender, only i've been badgering them because it's not matching SL
[12:58]	Darien Caldwell	and the more we dig into it, the messier it gets
[12:58]	Nyx Linden	it is....rather messy :)
[12:58]	Darien Caldwell	giggle
[12:58]	Eleanora Newell	lol
[12:58]	Nyx Linden	I've been talking about this issue with Oz recently, to see what we can do about it
[12:59]	Darien Caldwell	/me nods
[12:59]	Darien Caldwell	I know oz brought up the possibility of a COllada Export for the avatar
[12:59]	Darien Caldwell	I think that could potentially help in some instances
[12:59]	Tillie Ariantho	There is a bug still with invisiprims too, I think. Not rendered right. Afaik Henry fixed it in his client.
[12:59]	Theresa Tennyson	How important are the 1-100 settings? Could they be translated to 0-255?
[13:00]	Drongle McMahon	If it's just one default that needs to be exact, you could intercept that byte value and translate it into the desired fp number?
[13:00]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)	Invisiprims aren't supported, Tillie
[13:00]	Darien Caldwell	not to nitpick, but they are 0-100 settings
[13:00]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)	That's expected behaviour
[13:00]	Theresa Tennyson	101? Now that's just silly.
[13:00]	Darien Caldwell	yes, that was the first issue I prodded Gaia about
[13:00]	Tillie Ariantho	MartinRJ: So what? Ignore the hundreds of crying girls that cant use their shoes anymore they paid thousands of lindens for?
[13:01]	Darien Caldwell	they were doing a 100 range
[13:01]	Nyx Linden	yes there are a variety of silly things in this part of the code :)
[13:01]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)	They can stick to an outdated rendering engine
[13:01]	Nyx Linden	is there a specific way I can help with this?
[13:01]	Theresa Tennyson	I have found the Holy Grail of sandal alphas - fixed many shoes.
[13:01]	Aki Shichiroji	the invisiprim breakage doesn't bother me so much in terms of attachments. I do wish there were some way of obscuring water without it though.
[13:02]	Darien Caldwell	well, I think basically i can say we know why and that it wasn't really 'on purpose'
[13:02]	Darien Caldwell	but I guess the question is, will it be improved?
[13:02]	Eleanora Newell	:) nods
[13:02]	Aki Shichiroji	alpha layers have been out for what.. two years? if shoe-makers haven't learned to use them, they shouldn't complain about not being able to move product.
[13:02]	Tillie Ariantho	The invisiprim fix must be relatively easy. Maybe someone look at Henry's code. :P
[13:03]	Darien Caldwell	they work tillie, but with shadows they look like crap, they cast shadows
[13:03]	Darien Caldwell	so, no longer supported
[13:03]	Theresa Tennyson	Dolphin uses it now. It works pretty well - actually I wish Lance would give the option to turn them off.
[13:03]	Tillie Ariantho	It's not the creators who whine, but the people you paid lots of L$ for the items which are broken with the new renderer.
[13:03]	Nyx Linden	well I can assure you that we're having just as much difficulty with it internally as you're having externally, but we'd have to be careful not to break old content if we looked at changing any part of this.
[13:03]	Qie Niangao	I'm with Aki on this: Invisiprims were always hideous, but we need anti-water
[13:03]	Aki Shichiroji	we also need water on a prim :B
[13:03]	Tillie Ariantho	:P
[13:03]	Qie Niangao	and that. :)
[13:03]	Darien Caldwell	fair enough Nyx. I wish you much success with your struggles :)
[13:04]	Nyx Linden	/me forms a protest for anti-matter primitives and runs away :D
[13:04]	Darien Caldwell	lol
[13:04]	Eleanora Newell	grins
[13:04]	Aki Shichiroji	Tillie: my thoughts on the matter are that the shoes still operate under the conditions they were purchased.
[13:04]	Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)	I want an lsl call for anti matter primitives
[13:04]	Nyx Linden	thanks for coming out all!

Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)

Difference between revisions of "Mesh/Archive/2012-11-05"

Latest revision as of 13:15, 26 November 2012

Contents

Agenda

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

Transcript for Monday November 5, 2012

Navigation menu

Search

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 ==Meeting Notes==
+<!-- Wikified Chat Log generated by DGP4SL Chat Log Wikify [http://www.dgp4sl.com/wikify.php5 SL Chat Log Wikify by DGP4SL] -->
+<!-- START List of Attendees -->
+<div id='box'>
+==Attendees List==
+<div style='padding: 0.5em'>
+*<span id="aki.shichiroji"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/aki.shichiroji Aki Shichiroji (aki.shichiroji)]{{#ifexist: User:Aki Shichiroji| ''[[User:Aki Shichiroji|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="darien.caldwell"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/darien.caldwell Darien Caldwell (darien.caldwell)]{{#ifexist: User:Darien Caldwell| ''[[User:Darien Caldwell|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="drongle.mcmahon"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)]{{#ifexist: User:Drongle McMahon| ''[[User:Drongle McMahon|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="eleanora.newell"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/eleanora.newell Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)]{{#ifexist: User:Eleanora Newell| ''[[User:Eleanora Newell|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="liisa.runo"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/liisa.runo Liisa Runo (liisa.runo)]{{#ifexist: User:Liisa Runo| ''[[User:Liisa Runo|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="lraven.avedon"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/lraven.avedon LRaven Avedon (lraven.avedon)]{{#ifexist: User:LRaven Avedon| ''[[User:LRaven Avedon|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="martinrj.fayray"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/martinrj.fayray Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]{{#ifexist: User:Martin RJ| ''[[User:Martin RJ|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="nyx.linden"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/nyx.linden Nyx Linden (nyx.linden)]{{#ifexist: User:Nyx Linden| ''[[User:Nyx Linden|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="peetee.jewell"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/peetee.jewell peetee Jewell (peetee.jewell)]{{#ifexist: User:peetee Jewell| ''[[User:peetee Jewell|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="qie.niangao"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/qie.niangao Qie Niangao (qie.niangao)]{{#ifexist: User:Qie Niangao| ''[[User:Qie Niangao|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="sera.lok"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/sera.lok Sera Lok (sera.lok)]{{#ifexist: User:Sera Lok| ''[[User:Sera Lok|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="tankmaster.finesmith"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/tankmaster.finesmith Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)]{{#ifexist: User:Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks| ''[[User:Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="theresa.tennyson"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/theresa.tennyson Theresa Tennyson (theresa.tennyson)]{{#ifexist: User:Theresa Tennyson| ''[[User:Theresa Tennyson|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="tillie.ariantho"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/tillie.ariantho Tillie Ariantho (tillie.ariantho)]{{#ifexist: User:Tillie Ariantho| ''[[User:Tillie Ariantho|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="vir.linden"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/vir.linden Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)]{{#ifexist: User:Bazz Fazz| ''[[User:Bazz Fazz|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="yuzuru.jewell"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/yuzuru.jewell Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)]{{#ifexist: User:Yuzuru| ''[[User:Yuzuru|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+*<span id="zed.tremont"></span>[http://my.secondlife.com/zed.tremont Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]{{#ifexist: User:Zed de Tremont| ''[[User:Zed de Tremont|(User's Wiki Page)]]''|}}
+</div></div>
+<!-- END -->
+<!-- START Transcript -->
+<div id='box'>
+==Transcript for Monday November  5, 2012==
+<div style='padding: 0.5em'>
+{| cellspacing="2px" border=0 style="color: #434849;"
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_0"></span>[[#msg_0|[11:59]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|greetings all
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_1"></span>[[#msg_1|[12:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|hihi
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_2"></span>[[#msg_2|[12:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="peetee.jewell">[[#peetee.jewell|peetee Jewell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Hi Nyx
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_3"></span>[[#msg_3|[12:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="sera.lok">[[#sera.lok|Sera Lok]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|hello^^
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_5"></span>[[#msg_5|[12:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tankmaster.finesmith">[[#tankmaster.finesmith|Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I see 3.4.1 is not set for release
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_6"></span>[[#msg_6|[12:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tankmaster.finesmith">[[#tankmaster.finesmith|Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|now*
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_7"></span>[[#msg_7|[12:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|a bit light on topics this week, feel free to add more: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_8"></span>[[#msg_8|[12:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="martinrj.fayray">[[#martinrj.fayray|Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Hi:-)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_9"></span>[[#msg_9|[12:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="aki.shichiroji">[[#aki.shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Greetings
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_10"></span>[[#msg_10|[12:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|not a topic, but just a FYI, Runitai just posted a build of the Mesh Upload fix that's been highly anticipated by many. Link is on the Jira: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-3055
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_11"></span>[[#msg_11|[12:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|pre-beta, so at your own risk ^.^
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_12"></span>[[#msg_12|[12:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|thanks, darien
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_13"></span>[[#msg_13|[12:05]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|first topic: "Is it possible to provide more info regarding develop -&gt; redermetadata since some of these are really handy to evaluate mesh object and to have a better understanding of the complete picture [Zed Tremont]"
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_14"></span>[[#msg_14|[12:06]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|:)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_15"></span>[[#msg_15|[12:07]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Quite a few of those can be handy to evaluate sims/objects
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_16"></span>[[#msg_16|[12:07]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the only info on the wiki I have found is this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Viktoria_Dovgal/bbox
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_17"></span>[[#msg_17|[12:07]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|only I haven't dound any legend
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_18"></span>[[#msg_18|[12:07]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|so this is one of the debugging options we use to test our graphical systems. Zed you passed me a notecard regarding specific points you had questions on, mind if I share that list?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_19"></span>[[#msg_19|[12:07]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Indeed Darien
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_20"></span>[[#msg_20|[12:08]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Of course it can be shared
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_21"></span>[[#msg_21|[12:08]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the short answer is that we can certainly provide more documentation, and I'll let our doc team know that there is interest in having more formal documentation around this.
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_22"></span>[[#msg_22|[12:08]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|informally we can try and answer a few of those here.
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_23"></span>[[#msg_23|[12:08]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|1. Bounding boxes:
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_70"></span>[[#msg_70|[12:09]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|14 Build queu
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_97"></span>[[#msg_97|[12:09]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|long list, but we currently don't have any other topics this week so let's dive in
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_98"></span>[[#msg_98|[12:10]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tankmaster.finesmith">[[#tankmaster.finesmith|Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|long list indeed :P
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_99"></span>[[#msg_99|[12:10]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|If somebody likes it on a NC I can pass it if not done already
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_100"></span>[[#msg_100|[12:11]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="lraven.avedon">[[#lraven.avedon|LRaven Avedon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|hey guys
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_101"></span>[[#msg_101|[12:11]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|first: 1. Bounding boxes:
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_105"></span>[[#msg_105|[12:14]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|admittedly a lot of these things I'm going to have to look up myself :)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_106"></span>[[#msg_106|[12:14]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|nyx, i also added to the agenda
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_107"></span>[[#msg_107|[12:15]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|so at a high level the bounding boxes show the bounding box for various objects in the scene, the layers, thickneses, etc I will have to look up
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_108"></span>[[#msg_108|[12:17]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|at the moment our documentation around this *is* the source code, most of these displays are mostly used by our graphics engineers, they're not intended to be general-use displays (hence the lack of documentation)
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_109"></span>[[#msg_109|[12:17]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|2. Normals -&gt; what exactly
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_110"></span>[[#msg_110|[12:18]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="lraven.avedon">[[#lraven.avedon|LRaven Avedon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|someone pls tell me what is happening here? :/
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_111"></span>[[#msg_111|[12:18]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|hi LRaven, we're having a meeting here discussing various content creation topics
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_112"></span>[[#msg_112|[12:18]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the agenda is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_113"></span>[[#msg_113|[12:18]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="lraven.avedon">[[#lraven.avedon|LRaven Avedon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|oh really??? shit. sorry to interrupt. i didnt know. LOL
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_114"></span>[[#msg_114|[12:18]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="liisa.runo">[[#liisa.runo|Liisa Runo]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|you are welcome to join us
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_115"></span>[[#msg_115|[12:18]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|we're currently on the first topic discussing the develop-&gt;render metadata topic
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_116"></span>[[#msg_116|[12:19]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="lraven.avedon">[[#lraven.avedon|LRaven Avedon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|i dun knw anything bout this meeting of urs. im just a normal SL user for socialising.
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_117"></span>[[#msg_117|[12:19]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|you're welcome to stick around if you'd like and ask questions. Additional topics should be posted on the wiki
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_118"></span>[[#msg_118|[12:19]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="martinrj.fayray">[[#martinrj.fayray|Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Hello LRaven
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_119"></span>[[#msg_119|[12:19]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="lraven.avedon">[[#lraven.avedon|LRaven Avedon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|oh. tats nice. =)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_120"></span>[[#msg_120|[12:20]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="lraven.avedon">[[#lraven.avedon|LRaven Avedon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|oh. hey =)
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_121"></span>[[#msg_121|[12:20]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the normals display shows a line that represents the normal vector, or what direction a particular triangle or surface "faces"
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_122"></span>[[#msg_122|[12:20]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|3. Octree -&gt; what exactly
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_125"></span>[[#msg_125|[12:21]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|The octree display shows how the world is divided up into different "zones" for purposes of updating, etc. You see colors change as various items need to get updated - the higher the frequency of updates, the more load
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_126"></span>[[#msg_126|[12:21]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|you can see a bunch of updates happen as you zoom in and out
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_127"></span>[[#msg_127|[12:22]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|4. Shadow frusta
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_129"></span>[[#msg_129|[12:22]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|this deals with our shadow rendering, its more for devleopers, less helpful for creators
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_130"></span>[[#msg_130|[12:22]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|5. Physics shape:
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_138"></span>[[#msg_138|[12:23]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|This one I use regularly now
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_139"></span>[[#msg_139|[12:23]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|physics shapes are more helpful, as it shows you what shapes the server uses for detecting collisions. This is particularly important for imported meshes and pathfinding characters
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_140"></span>[[#msg_140|[12:23]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|To see if, if not it is wise to use convex hull or for mesh
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_141"></span>[[#msg_141|[12:24]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|exactly. This is probably the most useful one for creators trying to optimize their content
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_142"></span>[[#msg_142|[12:24]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I shows you that the default convex hull is smaller than it should be!
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_143"></span>[[#msg_143|[12:25]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Indeed but you regularly get see colour codes
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_144"></span>[[#msg_144|[12:25]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Or has that been fixed now?
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_145"></span>[[#msg_145|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the colors are determined in the code, I'll have to look up what the various ones mean
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_146"></span>[[#msg_146|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Blue=good, red=bad
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_147"></span>[[#msg_147|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|:)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_148"></span>[[#msg_148|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes I heard that hehe
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_149"></span>[[#msg_149|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|though what = bad would be good to know
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_150"></span>[[#msg_150|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|more or less yes
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_151"></span>[[#msg_151|[12:26]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|True
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_152"></span>[[#msg_152|[12:27]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|6. occlusion tris visible
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_154"></span>[[#msg_154|[12:27]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|this is a debugging display for our rendering engine, shouldn't really be relevant
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_155"></span>[[#msg_155|[12:28]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|most of these are fairly technical in nature, only a handful of them are potentially useful actually
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_156"></span>[[#msg_156|[12:29]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I'll skip around a bit for the purpose of brevity
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_157"></span>[[#msg_157|[12:30]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Render badges?
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_158"></span>[[#msg_158|[12:30]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|If we can see how rendering of certain spots on a sim goes
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_159"></span>[[#msg_159|[12:30]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|we might be able to detect problem areas on sims
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_160"></span>[[#msg_160|[12:31]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|render batches are groups of content that can be drawn together in one pass. Every time you change the properties of an object (textures active, shiny, etc). then the whole pipeline needs to stop in reset, so batching things is good
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_161"></span>[[#msg_161|[12:32]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the next relevant display is collision skeleton, which shows you the bones that your camera can focus on for picking
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_162"></span>[[#msg_162|[12:33]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|next important would be "render complexity" which uses the display weight algorithm to give a "score" to each avatar in view as to how complex they are to draw
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_163"></span>[[#msg_163|[12:34]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|there actually is documentation on this one! Keeping these numbers low will help with your performance.
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_164"></span>[[#msg_164|[12:34]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|use the "display weight" metric in the build tools while working on attachments to help here
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_165"></span>[[#msg_165|[12:36]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|attachment bytes - shows how much data is needed to store each avatar's attachments
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_166"></span>[[#msg_166|[12:36]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|and sculpt - shows the size of the sculpt maps used in sculptie objects
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_167"></span>[[#msg_167|[12:36]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|we have a couple other topics to get to, are there any immediate questions here?
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_168"></span>[[#msg_168|[12:37]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Eleanora is 0.0Kb!
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_169"></span>[[#msg_169|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I'll talk with our doc team to see if we can get the ones that would be helpful for builders documented better
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_170"></span>[[#msg_170|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yay
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_171"></span>[[#msg_171|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|please note that these are internal developer tools and could change at any time
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_172"></span>[[#msg_172|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="yuzuru.jewell">[[#yuzuru.jewell|Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Nyx, I can't turn "render complexity" to checked.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_173"></span>[[#msg_173|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Where do I display those values?
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_174"></span>[[#msg_174|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|(anything under 'develop' is subject to change)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_175"></span>[[#msg_175|[12:38]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="qie.niangao">[[#qie.niangao|Qie Niangao]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Yuzuru, me neither.
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_176"></span>[[#msg_176|[12:39]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|hrm, looks like a bug :)
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_177"></span>[[#msg_177|[12:39]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|you should still be able to use the display weight while creating objects, I'll look at the debug display for avatar numbers
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_178"></span>[[#msg_178|[12:39]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|moving on
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_179"></span>[[#msg_179|[12:39]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|You can turn it on under Advanced-&gt;Performance....
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_180"></span>[[#msg_180|[12:40]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|next topic: "We know that the highest o the calculation values in the uploader is what sets the LI. If the physics is the highest contributor, that can be fixed with a custom physics mesh. What, specifically, should we be looking to do to our model that effects "Download" and what effects "Server", so we know the difference, in more laymen like terms, and how we can lower LI through changing the model to affect Download or Server values? [Eleanora Newell]"
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_181"></span>[[#msg_181|[12:40]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|great question!
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_182"></span>[[#msg_182|[12:40]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Ok... Cool VL Viewer has no advanced/performance. ;)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_183"></span>[[#msg_183|[12:40]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Seems to be the Info Displays...
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_184"></span>[[#msg_184|[12:41]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|The others are in the Develop menu .... I can't remember how to turn that on.
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_185"></span>[[#msg_185|[12:41]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|so the details for the weight algorithms are in the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Technical_Overview (see the box in the right)
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_186"></span>[[#msg_186|[12:42]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|If you like maths, you could also look at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Download-weight-and-size-Some-graphs/m-p/1058609#M5642
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_187"></span>[[#msg_187|[12:42]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|"streaming" or "download" weight is the geometric complexity of the model you are uploading. You can reduce this by reducing the number of triangles in your model, or adjusting how much your LODs downscale the number of vertices
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_188"></span>[[#msg_188|[12:42]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Streaming_Cost
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_189"></span>[[#msg_189|[12:43]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|"server" weight is less easy to affect, as it sets a weight for how many pieces or prims an object is broken up into, and whether those prims are considered "dynamic"
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_190"></span>[[#msg_190|[12:43]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Server_Weight
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_191"></span>[[#msg_191|[12:43]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Basically ... minimising the complexity of the lowest relevant LOD for the mesh size will have the greatest effect in lowering streaming weight.
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_192"></span>[[#msg_192|[12:44]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|nyx, can we rez here?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_193"></span>[[#msg_193|[12:44]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes, drongle, that seems to be key
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_194"></span>[[#msg_194|[12:44]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|prefer to rez on the grassy hill immediately to the west, but yes, just a sec
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_195"></span>[[#msg_195|[12:44]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the Grassy Knoll heh
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_196"></span>[[#msg_196|[12:45]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|build is on, feel free to rez examples
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_197"></span>[[#msg_197|[12:45]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|There are fixed cutoff sizes above which each lower LOD becomes irrelevant.
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_198"></span>[[#msg_198|[12:45]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|A cube!
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_199"></span>[[#msg_199|[12:46]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|heh
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_200"></span>[[#msg_200|[12:46]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|i'm still working on the lower lods on this
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_201"></span>[[#msg_201|[12:46]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|indeed, if an object is small enough that we never actually use LODs, then the lower LODs aren't relevant to the cost
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_202"></span>[[#msg_202|[12:47]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|it was 25K tris for level one
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_203"></span>[[#msg_203|[12:47]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yeh, that's a lot
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_204"></span>[[#msg_204|[12:47]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_205"></span>[[#msg_205|[12:47]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|that's a ton of triangles for an object that size
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_206"></span>[[#msg_206|[12:47]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|normally i don't do that much
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_207"></span>[[#msg_207|[12:48]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|this is the kind of thing that the normal maps will soooo be good for
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_208"></span>[[#msg_208|[12:48]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|there are some good quality full avatars that weigh in under 10k triangles
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_209"></span>[[#msg_209|[12:48]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_210"></span>[[#msg_210|[12:48]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|indeed, hopefully normal maps will help in these types of situations
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_211"></span>[[#msg_211|[12:49]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="zed.tremont">[[#zed.tremont|Zed de Tremont (zed.tremont)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Imagine the opposing I made a huge bridge element of 60*80 due to the size it wan't get fast on LOD2 so this one could be reduced also a lot I presume. Impossible to upload in aditi yesterday
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_212"></span>[[#msg_212|[12:49]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|please do report back if you're able to remake it with normal maps in the future and let us know how many triangles you are able to save :)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_213"></span>[[#msg_213|[12:49]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|actually, that is on my list, so i will
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_214"></span>[[#msg_214|[12:49]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|thanks!
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_215"></span>[[#msg_215|[12:49]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|does that answer your question on weights?
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_216"></span>[[#msg_216|[12:49]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|i have one with 65K that is even better, and that's the one i'm trying with a normal map
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_217"></span>[[#msg_217|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes, nyx, ty
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_218"></span>[[#msg_218|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Nyx .... I think it's the other way round. Big objects never use the lower LODs .... small ones nearly always use the lowest LOD unless you are very close.
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_219"></span>[[#msg_219|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|moving on then :)
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_220"></span>[[#msg_220|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="aki.shichiroji">[[#aki.shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|/me agrees.
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_221"></span>[[#msg_221|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|you're right Drongle, I misspoke :)
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_222"></span>[[#msg_222|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|i would agree, drongle
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_223"></span>[[#msg_223|[12:50]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|next topic: "Is it on purpose that the exact values of the default Avatar can not be reached with the SL shape editor ? i.e.: When i set a default value to itself with a slider, then the new (true) floating point value sometimes differs slightly from the default. This makes trouble with external tools, because it is not clear how to support this in a meaningful way. Is there any chance for a fix such that all default values can be set by the SL sliders ? [Gaia Clary]"
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_224"></span>[[#msg_224|[12:51]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Gaia couldn't come, and asked me to be her proxy
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_225"></span>[[#msg_225|[12:51]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|heh, yes, we spoke as well
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_226"></span>[[#msg_226|[12:51]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I think i already know the answers hehe
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_227"></span>[[#msg_227|[12:51]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I don't believe this was on purpose
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_228"></span>[[#msg_228|[12:51]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|to give an example,
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_229"></span>[[#msg_229|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Saddlebags morph ranges from -0.5 to 3.0
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_230"></span>[[#msg_230|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|so at it's default of 0, that comes out to a slider of 14
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_231"></span>[[#msg_231|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|but in reality, the value is 14.285714285714286
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_232"></span>[[#msg_232|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="vir.linden">[[#vir.linden|Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|This has to do with the way we send parameters encoded as 8 bits in some contexts.
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_233"></span>[[#msg_233|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|we've been running into some similar quirks as we've been trying to work on server side avatar appearance / texture baking.
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_234"></span>[[#msg_234|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|so later if someone enters a value of 14 to set it to 'default'
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_235"></span>[[#msg_235|[12:52]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="vir.linden">[[#vir.linden|Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Can't fix without a big overhaul, unfortunately :-(
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_236"></span>[[#msg_236|[12:53]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the morph actually set to -0.010
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_237"></span>[[#msg_237|[12:53]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|i imagine high accuracy was just never seen to be a necessity
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_238"></span>[[#msg_238|[12:53]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|and until mesh and the deformer, probably wasn't one
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_239"></span>[[#msg_239|[12:54]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|nods
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_240"></span>[[#msg_240|[12:54]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="vir.linden">[[#vir.linden|Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I think in the early days there was a lot of concern about minimizing network bandwidth.
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_241"></span>[[#msg_241|[12:54]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|there are three number spaces - the sliders have 100 points of accuracy, the individual morphs are floating point values with varying ranges, and we send a single byte over the network. the translation from one number space to the others is not always 100% accurate
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_242"></span>[[#msg_242|[12:54]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Can't you just make the sliders emit the right values?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_243"></span>[[#msg_243|[12:55]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I see
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_244"></span>[[#msg_244|[12:55]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Make them 0..255
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_245"></span>[[#msg_245|[12:55]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the network aspect is part I wasn't aware of
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_246"></span>[[#msg_246|[12:55]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|over the network, there are 256 possible values for each parameter, that are then expanded into the floating point values
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_247"></span>[[#msg_247|[12:56]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|it was done to make the avatar appearance messages as small as possible
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_248"></span>[[#msg_248|[12:56]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tankmaster.finesmith">[[#tankmaster.finesmith|Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|255 I think actually :P
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_249"></span>[[#msg_249|[12:57]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|0 to 255 :)
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_250"></span>[[#msg_250|[12:57]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tankmaster.finesmith">[[#tankmaster.finesmith|Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|ah, figures
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_251"></span>[[#msg_251|[12:57]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Use 0..255 and a lookup table on the server?
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_252"></span>[[#msg_252|[12:57]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|256, 0 to 255
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_253"></span>[[#msg_253|[12:57]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|chat lag
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_254"></span>[[#msg_254|[12:57]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="vir.linden">[[#vir.linden|Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|There are also some bugs in the way we do the conversions - I'm a bit afraid to touch it for fear of introducing some change in people's content.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_255"></span>[[#msg_255|[12:58]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Gaia and Magus re-created the slider system in Blender, only i've been badgering them because it's not matching SL
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_256"></span>[[#msg_256|[12:58]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|and the more we dig into it, the messier it gets
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_257"></span>[[#msg_257|[12:58]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|it is....rather messy :)
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_258"></span>[[#msg_258|[12:58]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|*giggle*
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_259"></span>[[#msg_259|[12:58]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|lol
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_260"></span>[[#msg_260|[12:58]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I've been talking about this issue with Oz recently, to see what we can do about it
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_261"></span>[[#msg_261|[12:59]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|/me nods
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_262"></span>[[#msg_262|[12:59]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I know oz brought up the possibility of a COllada Export for the avatar
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_263"></span>[[#msg_263|[12:59]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I think that could potentially help in some instances
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_264"></span>[[#msg_264|[12:59]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|There is a bug still with invisiprims too, I think. Not rendered right. Afaik Henry fixed it in his client.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_265"></span>[[#msg_265|[12:59]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="theresa.tennyson">[[#theresa.tennyson|Theresa Tennyson]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|How important are the 1-100 settings? Could they be translated to 0-255?
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_266"></span>[[#msg_266|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="drongle.mcmahon">[[#drongle.mcmahon|Drongle McMahon]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|If it's just one default that needs to be exact, you could intercept that byte value and translate it into the desired fp number?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_267"></span>[[#msg_267|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="martinrj.fayray">[[#martinrj.fayray|Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Invisiprims aren't supported, Tillie
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_268"></span>[[#msg_268|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|not to nitpick, but they are 0-100 settings
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_269"></span>[[#msg_269|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="martinrj.fayray">[[#martinrj.fayray|Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|That's expected behaviour
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_270"></span>[[#msg_270|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="theresa.tennyson">[[#theresa.tennyson|Theresa Tennyson]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|101? Now that's just silly.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_271"></span>[[#msg_271|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes, that was the first issue I prodded Gaia about
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_272"></span>[[#msg_272|[13:00]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|MartinRJ: So what? Ignore the hundreds of crying girls that cant use their shoes anymore they paid thousands of lindens for?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_273"></span>[[#msg_273|[13:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|they were doing a 100 range
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_274"></span>[[#msg_274|[13:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|yes there are a variety of silly things in this part of the code :)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_275"></span>[[#msg_275|[13:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="martinrj.fayray">[[#martinrj.fayray|Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|They can stick to an outdated rendering engine
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_276"></span>[[#msg_276|[13:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|is there a specific way I can help with this?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_277"></span>[[#msg_277|[13:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="theresa.tennyson">[[#theresa.tennyson|Theresa Tennyson]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I have found the Holy Grail of sandal alphas - fixed many shoes.
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_278"></span>[[#msg_278|[13:01]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="aki.shichiroji">[[#aki.shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|the invisiprim breakage doesn't bother me so much in terms of attachments. I do wish there were some way of obscuring water without it though.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_279"></span>[[#msg_279|[13:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|well, I think basically i can say we know why and that it wasn't really 'on purpose'
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_280"></span>[[#msg_280|[13:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|but I guess the question is, will it be improved?
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_281"></span>[[#msg_281|[13:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|:) nods
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_282"></span>[[#msg_282|[13:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="aki.shichiroji">[[#aki.shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|alpha layers have been out for what.. two years? if shoe-makers haven't learned to use them, they shouldn't complain about not being able to move product.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_283"></span>[[#msg_283|[13:02]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|The invisiprim fix must be relatively easy. Maybe someone look at Henry's code. :P
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_284"></span>[[#msg_284|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|they work tillie, but with shadows they look like crap, they cast shadows
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_285"></span>[[#msg_285|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|so, no longer supported
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_286"></span>[[#msg_286|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="theresa.tennyson">[[#theresa.tennyson|Theresa Tennyson]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Dolphin uses it now. It works pretty well - actually I wish Lance would give the option to turn them off.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_287"></span>[[#msg_287|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|It's not the creators who whine, but the people you paid lots of L$ for the items which are broken with the new renderer.
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_288"></span>[[#msg_288|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|well I can assure you that we're having just as much difficulty with it internally as you're having externally, but we'd have to be careful not to break old content if we looked at changing any part of this.
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_289"></span>[[#msg_289|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="qie.niangao">[[#qie.niangao|Qie Niangao]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I'm with Aki on this: Invisiprims were always hideous, but we need anti-water
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_290"></span>[[#msg_290|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="aki.shichiroji">[[#aki.shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|we also need water on a prim :B
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_291"></span>[[#msg_291|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="tillie.ariantho">[[#tillie.ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|:P
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_292"></span>[[#msg_292|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="qie.niangao">[[#qie.niangao|Qie Niangao]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|and that. :)
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_293"></span>[[#msg_293|[13:03]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|fair enough Nyx. I wish you much success with your struggles :)
+|-style="background-color: #FFFDC6;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_294"></span>[[#msg_294|[13:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|/me forms a protest for anti-matter primitives and runs away :D
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_295"></span>[[#msg_295|[13:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="darien.caldwell">[[#darien.caldwell|Darien Caldwell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|lol
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_296"></span>[[#msg_296|[13:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="eleanora.newell">[[#eleanora.newell|Eleanora Newell]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|grins
+|-style="background-color: #C7C4D4;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_297"></span>[[#msg_297|[13:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="aki.shichiroji">[[#aki.shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Tillie: my thoughts on the matter are that the shoes still operate under the conditions they were purchased.
+|-style="background-color: #D7DEE7;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_298"></span>[[#msg_298|[13:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="martinrj.fayray">[[#martinrj.fayray|Martin RJ (martinrj.fayray)]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|I want an lsl call for anti matter primitives
+|-style="background-color: #EFE3B3;"
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; vertical-align: top;"|<span id="msg_299"></span>[[#msg_299|[13:04]]]
+|style="white-space: nowrap; padding:0 3px; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;"|<span title="nyx.linden">[[#nyx.linden|Nyx Linden]]</span>
+|width=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|thanks for coming out all!
+|}</div></div>
+<!-- END -->
+<div id='box'>
+<div style='padding: 0.5em; font-size:0.75em; text-align:center'>
+[http://www.dgp4sl.com/wikify.php5 Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)]
+</div></div>