User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 12 02

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	Hiya Andrew
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Good morning
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Andrew
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, announcements...
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Last week I was going to try to fix bugs on Tuesday. Unfortunately I only fixed one easy one
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I forget what one it was
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	then I got stuck on a more important but harder to fix bug
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	Andrews loosing his memory :0
[11:04]	Siobhan McCallen:	need more flax seed oil
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	which turns out I will have to tackle this week ... the "multiple duplicate login" problem
[11:05]	Siobhan McCallen:	oooh, ghosties
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	server-1.25 is in testing on some blocker problems
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	The one from when you crash and then login and it says you already are?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, perhaps that one is related to the problem I'm hunting
[11:06]	Kitto Flora dounts thats really abug
[11:06]	Siobhan McCallen:	maggie says she hasn't been getting told she's already on, it just lets her in...but the server isn't saving where she was anymore. It's just dumping her someplace she had gone to sometime in the session, seemingly at random.
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	but no, this has to do with sometimes being able to login a second time without having your first login kicked
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	that "unable to login for 5 minutes" is a bug, I think
[11:07]	Siobhan McCallen:	we've had to wait until the avie winked out for months.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	anyway, I don't think a final delivery on 1.25 is known. They are working on it
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	and wondering if the problem I'll be working on should also block 1.25. I don't think so, but haven't weighed in on the debate yet.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	Hi Rex
[11:08]	Siobhan McCallen:	but now, we seem to be able toget back in most of the time right away, just not to the same PLACE
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	OK - the crash and reconnect and being told you are already there is a function of the server waiting to see if it was just network lag.. kinda expected
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	hiii
[11:08]	Siobhan McCallen:	hey rex
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I think 1.25 was headed out next week, but had tentative dates with lots of time during the partial roll-out to check for problems
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	The 'wait 5 mins to reconnect' - I suspected that was a move to prevent griefers doing multiple rapid connect/abort to spam the server
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I have my render preferences set way higher than they usually are... Rex's avatar looks much better in this mode.
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	:)
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler wonders that the unoccupied chair only rezzed with other unsat objects.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	No Kitto, I don't think that is the source of the "wait 5 mins" problem. I think it is a real bug.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	That is, it is not by design.
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	How come theres some text associated with it then? Its got a timer an all
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	The "timer" is really a pull of the expiry in the database (db)
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	really the system should be made smarter so that it can figure out when the new login should clear the expiry and continue
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately I'm doing some hand-waving here... I'm very unfamiliar with that system
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	and even more unfortunately I'm going to have to figure it out very soon if I'm going to fix anything.
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Vista
[11:12]	Vista Questi:	Hello! ^.^
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Sounds fishy to me
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought you were abou the first developer to work on SL, Andrew. Don't you know everything, or are you just getting pounced by technical obsolecense.
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Also - as the connect server has to figure out you really were gone, on a reconnect after client crash, seems to me the server is not handling the socket connect termination well
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	I can no longer stay on top of everything that is being done in LL
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	that has been the case for several years, alas
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Henry Ford had the same problem, with the Model T
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Many cooks at the broth....
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Moree like the same broth going to a suite of kitchens
[11:14]	Kitto Flora attempts a second connect
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Was there an internet problem, earlier? I had some FTP Problem
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Woah
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	No, it is a full course meal. One chef cannot manage all the dishes.
[11:15]	Siobhan McCallen:	BAM!
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is something on Voice?
[11:16]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	In any case, I don't have much other news.
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	We were having some problems yesterday with one of our colo facilities, but it should be OK today
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	I found there's a theorem, describing why SLPP should nopt be Griefer Proofed
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Humm - 2 clients sort of connected
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	But the first went dead
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	SLPP = llSetLinkPrimitiveParams() for those who don't know
[11:17]	Siobhan McCallen:	ah, thank you
[11:18]	Tegg Bode:	Cool
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	Ah - now the first has been disconnected
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	actually, it's the whole of SL, that shouldn' tbe griefer proofed.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, define in more detail what you mean by "griefer proofed".
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... proceed with the proof of your theorem.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	I will dismantle it if I can see a way.
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you fix everything, in SL, so that nobody gets to abuse others, you'll have reached an impossible state.
[11:19]	Tegg Bode:	Sometimes I miss orbiting
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem.
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	how can u grief with llSetLinkPrimitiveParams?
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	ok, simple argument. In this case I agree.
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	SLPP allowed for griefing, the same way Sit Target does.
[11:20]	Siobhan McCallen:	some are claiming it can be used to avoid some sensor and parcel restriction limits
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	You can do that with Sit Target also
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	yes, there is a balance between useful features and grief potential
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	and it could be argued that a necessary set of useful features cannot exist without some greif modes
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	or put another way... there is at least one grief mode inside any useful feature set
[11:22]	Tegg Bode:	Overall I suspect griefings dropped dramatically, no point trying to be completely grief proof by breaking features, G-Team can handle problem children
[11:22]	Siobhan McCallen:	my contention on that score is that griefing isn't in the tools, it's in the minds and hearts of the persons who commit it. restricting the tool space in an ever-tightening spiral eventually achieves the same goal as the griefers', by ruining the fun of those who attempt to create, by removing the tools needed for turning imagination into tangible form
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	One Av's grief is another Av's feature.
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	there r quite a few functions that can be used to grief, but what can u do? remove all of them?
[11:22]	Vista Questi:	as can mature estate managers . :)
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Estate Ownership is a griefer's dream
[11:23]	Siobhan McCallen:	actually, it's only a griefer's dream if he can convince suckers to come into his sim so he can mistreat them, Arawn
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	My experience tells me that it is possible to block off some corners of "possibility space" to remove some grief modes without lobotomizing the useful feature set too much
[11:23]	Vista Questi:	I've never been to a greifer palace, before, but i guess they have to live somewhere my problems with them are extremely limited.
[11:23]	Tegg Bode:	Griefers dream to be Estate owners or like griefing Estates?
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ask me why I'm presently in exile.
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	that is, it can be profitable to implement logic restrictions to the feature set for a better experience overall
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	u should try sandbox weapons testing if u want to experience griefing:)
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	if you consider all of the grief modes that have been closed over the years I think you may also be convinced
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Eventually, I hope settings can be varied, from Simulator Owner to Simulator Owner.
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	You should see what I once did to Crash Me
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Only place I've seen griefing (in an area that should be grief-proof) is at Help Island Public.
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	but, sadly now it seems u can get a warning event if u rezz a rotating prim:(
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Griefers still manage to rez many anooying cubes
[11:25]	Tegg Bode:	lol, yes I suspect the griefers get sick of the crap that was in testing sandbox, it was an unusable sim last time I was there with a few thousand varieties of followers
[11:25]	Vista Questi:	the greifers win ONLY if theforce the lindens into a lockdown mode, which im almost certain will never happen
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, that warning event is from the GTeam, or some other LL response team?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Not an automatic warning from the system, right?
[11:26]	Vista Questi:	freedom comews with a price tag, and im willing to pay it, and play by the um heeh .... rulews.
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	i don't know
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm, well I'm not sure what the warning event looks like.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Vista, I think griefers can win other ways...
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	I just couldn't get aan independant prim free, in some areas of HIP
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	u get a email telling u that your account can be terminated for abusing sim resources
[11:27]	Siobhan McCallen:	there will always be *somebody* who doesn't like Product X because it has Feature Y, and wants to get it banned because they consider it griefing.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Griefers are people who decide that the "meta game" they like to plays is: "make other people sad or mad"
[11:28]	Vista Questi:	they can't and havent' so far with me. and i don't need defenses
[11:28]	Vista Questi:	good pont, they canot break my happy, ever, i have far more than they could overcome. ;)
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately, one griefer in pursuit of their meta-game can spoil the expeience for 100 people
[11:28]	Vista Questi:	i've even managed to turn a couple from the dark side. ;P)
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm nice to griefers, and always take a happy interest, in their efforts to make people miserable, but I never run into very many
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	I've seen many move from the dark side.
[11:29]	Vista Questi:	this is true, however if u have a good team for your sim, your problems will be few
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	many eventually pick more constructive meta-games
[11:29]	Tegg Bode:	Maybe they found griefing all the bots boring
[11:29]	Vista Questi:	may be they can start their own opensim stuffs and greif each other <G>
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	where by "meta-game" I mean the "game or reason anyone is in SL"
[11:30]	Siobhan McCallen:	What about the designer who just got two months' work destroyed because someone posted a jira and got their friends to chime in on how "unfair" and "grief ridden" feature Y is? They were made pretty sad and mad.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	since SL does not provide default reasons
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	each person must make up their own
[11:30]	Vista Questi:	im here to rezz my dreams =^.^=
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... the sad designer who had their feature (or misfeature) nerfed...
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	Since when did posting a bug in Jira, and getting people to vote for it, change a (mis) feature in SL inside a couple years or more?
[11:31]	Siobhan McCallen:	just an example.
[11:31]	Siobhan McCallen:	logrolling does sometimes get results
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	I didn't think we responded to jiras that fast :)
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Neither did I :)
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Orbiting was a misfeature with lots of happy designers selling devices that used that misfeature
[11:32]	Tegg Bode:	Well I guess if youy choose to use a loophole to base a product, you can't expect it never to be closed
[11:32]	Siobhan McCallen:	*cough cough* SVC-22 *cough*
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	I closed it... not because of any particular jira
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	I'm thinking about turning SVC-22 into a supported misfeature Siobhan
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, is SVC-22 the one with Lag Orbiting on every inworld road trip?
[11:33]	Siobhan McCallen:	AGGGHGGGHH!
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	actually, that was just a joke
[11:33]	Siobhan McCallen slits her wrists
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	but this bug --> misfeature thing can really make my job easier
[11:34]	Siobhan McCallen:	so was that ;)
[11:34]	Tegg Bode:	Ewww Blood, where's a Spampire when you need one?
[11:34]	Siobhan McCallen:	no vampires!
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler'll see if his spampire is on line...
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Tegg, how do you get that fancy glyph into your chat?
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Looks to me like SVC-22 == 'Region boundary crossing needs a re-write.'
[11:35]	Vista Questi:	hey! one of my best friends is a vampire, u take that back this instan! lol
[11:35]	Tegg Bode:	It's a gesture I think
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:
[11:35]	Tegg Bode:	Like when I say SL or LL
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn appears to know the trick.
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Should be an alternate character.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I'm an LL dev, but I'm not an expert at the SL UI or feature set.
[11:36]	Tegg Bode gave you :) Smile :).
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	Thats a lot of garlic
[11:36]	Siobhan McCallen:	hehe
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Try holding the Alt Key, while typing a three digit number, like 155 or 130, on your keypad. I wonder how many will type
[11:37]	Tegg Bode gave you SL->SL(TM).
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	That Alt trick doesn't work for me.
[11:38]	Vista Questi:	ive used that trick in my irc days but the linux client is unresponsive to it.
[11:38]	Siobhan McCallen:	oh...btw. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6879
[11:38]	Simon Linden:	It's an ancient Windows PC feature
[11:38]	Siobhan McCallen:	driving me absolutely bats
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	L$1=, n?
[11:39]	Siobhan McCallen:	anyone else having trouble picking on one side or around the edges of the screen?
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	My grid-monkey duty starts tomorrow
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	C'est ca
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	so for a week I'll be helping our support/operations teams keep the grid up
[11:40]	Siobhan McCallen:	my rightmost quarter of my screen is damn near useless for picking anything
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	most likely that means I'll try to fix a few bugs that are making it harder for them to get their work done
[11:40]	Tegg Bode:	So getting ready to hunker in for 2 biggest months of SL concurancy I guess
[11:40]	Vista Questi:	not at all, if i neede to move a hud i just use zoom-edit to place it a little differently. no trouble with pies tho' I almost always come here under linux tho. so i can't speak from experience on windows
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Self Promping Pies should be a viewer side issue.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, VWR-6879 is a viewer-side problem
[11:41]	Siobhan McCallen:	so who should I go bother?
[11:41]	Siobhan McCallen:	I wanna camp on a desktop somewhere and clip my toenails
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately all I can do is empathize with you on that
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Siobhan, you'd have to find a viewer-side developer. Steve Linden perhaps
[11:42]	Siobhan McCallen:	ah, tanku
[11:42]	Tegg Bode:	Camping on my desktop would be good, but , I'm afraid I just don't find clipping toenails very sexy
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	There are others... but I'm not sure which ones hold office hours
[11:42]	Siobhan McCallen:	that's the idea, Tegg
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Still, that SVC-22, should eventually vgbet fixed.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Arawn. I think Doug was suggesting that maybe we'll work on region crossing bugs in 2009Q1
[11:44]	Siobhan McCallen:	good, thanks. Maybe I'll see if I can interest Bridie in the picking issue.
[11:44]	Tegg Bode:	Yay region crossings
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	When we type, does our text have to bounce off a server, before we get to back-space it? I think it's causeing a lot of texting troubles.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	If we tackle SVC-22 we'll be tackling a bunch of other related problems at the same time
[11:44]	Vista Questi:	ooh that's good to hear.. sim crossings are sometimes not very fun.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	No Arawn, each character does not bounce to the server and back
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - in the chat text input? I think it's all viewer-side until you send it
[11:45]	Vista Questi:	0191
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	It does send a message that triggers the 'typing' animation
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Really slow.
[11:45]	Vista Questi grrs
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Simon is right.
[11:45]	Siobhan McCallen:	I've been seeing a lot of "sit down and go into the blue void" or "stand up and seem hurled someplace far away for a minute" effects. What's that about? the sim doesn't have significant lag on the meters.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	But there is a problem... if you're typing fast but the rendering is happening slowly then the text update can lag your input
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Region crossing, Sound Sequencing, vehicle collision_start() - all major old complex bugs. Never to be fixed?
[11:46]	Vista Questi:	sorry bout that.
[11:46]	Tegg Bode:	If you have ever run SL on diallup, you wound be amazed to see how many issues like that are caused by network speeds
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	the viewer dev's want to decouple the typing/text rendering from the 3D graphics rendering
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	so that the UI can update faster than the 3D scenery
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	Region crossing isn't a single bug ... it's a pretty complex sequence of events that just doesn't work as well as it should
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	there was some work done on that years ago... dunno if it is still in place, was ripped out, or what
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	that is... some work done on decoupling the rendering of 3D scene and UI
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	3D rendering isn't my priority, so I shoul dbe free to downgrade it. I have n't the taste to appreciate anyone's build.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, you should notice more responsive chat text if you dial all your rendering preferences down for the maximum FPS
[11:49]	Siobhan McCallen:	does that affect group chat problems too?
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Rendering Preferences? I've Windlaugh Off.
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	No Siobhan... the delivery of group chat goes through some special system and the problems happen after you hit [Return] on the chat line
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Theres times when text from objects arrives out of sequence.
[11:49]	Siobhan McCallen:	the group chat problems are getting severe
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	"Graphics preferences" Arawn
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Some kinda delays someplace.
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think they were worse, before I quit College of Music and Scripting.
[11:50]	Vista Questi:	u can solve those for now by going to im for the person you want to talk to
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, what do you mean by object chat out of sequence?
[11:51]	Siobhan McCallen:	only helps if you only want to talk to ONE person, Vista
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	One object chats twice, but the first chat comes after the second?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Or two objects chat... one first then the other, but the two arrive out of sequence?
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	My vehicles use llSay() on provate channel for control comms. I have a hud that translates those messages to llOwnerSay() so I can monitor them. Often I see the messages very much delayed, and sometimes out of sequence.
[11:52]	Vista Questi:	yes, it's grotty to have to have someone else paste chat for you but it's all i know to do, siobhan
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	I know they are sent like 1,2,3 but what I get is 2,3,.....1
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Kitto, there is a listener in the middle of that loop
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	I *hope* its really internet traffic lag between servers and my client
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	it could be that the chats are piling up and the listener is handling them in the wrong order
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, we don't know which is getting out of sequence, llSay or llOwnerSay
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	Right
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	They should be ordered by Event Queue
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	If you increment some index on listen() and add that info to the chat you should be abel to get some clues out where the disorder is happening
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	that is... inside the listen() or in one of the llSay() or llOwnerSay()
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	YEs, that sounds like a good idea for debug
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Its minor annoyance compared to other stuff though
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	then once you know I'm sure Simon will fix it for you (and me ;-)
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Simon's got time to fix stuff?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	This hour is almost up. If there were any issues you've been waiting to bring up this would be a good time.
[11:56]	Siobhan McCallen:	just sitting on stuff and going into the void
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	Andrew's just trying to pass work to me :)
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	No, I don't think he does. I'm just volunteering his services.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Yup.
[11:56]	Vista Questi:	meep! i came to just listen and leran. :)
[11:56]	Tegg Bode:	lol
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Sit and you suddenly looking at some weird place?
[11:56]	Siobhan McCallen:	sit on a chair and end up at 0,0,0 for twenty, thirty seconds
[11:56]	Siobhan McCallen:	then BAM, back at the chair
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Yep
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Antique bug
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	UDP packet loss/corrution?
[11:57]	Siobhan McCallen:	hadn't seen it forever...thens uddenly started cropping up again
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	That's an artifact of the network traffic, yes, some packet loss
[11:57]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm the 0,0,0 sit problem was one I noticed on Diallup
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Huh... Siobhan, I've seen that bug report in the lists... but I've never actually seen it in-world.
[11:57]	Vista Questi:	ive had that happen butg only with a specific vehicle , so far. and only on one sim, i thnk
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if it is related to a bad/laggy netwrok connection.
[11:57]	Siobhan McCallen:	I've got 15/15 fiberoptic
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	The network here in the LL office is pretty tight with the SL network
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	There are a few cases (sit and TP, I think, plus probably some others) where the sim temporarily parks the AV at 0,0,0 before putting them in another position
[11:58]	Vista Questi:	ive got a pretty good cable connection 1.5mb up and about 6 down
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	A OpenSim type of question: Can the standard LL client run without any UDP comms at all - ie. only TCP ?
[11:58]	Siobhan McCallen:	might be something in between in the routing
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	If something causes a delay or an update that sends that 0,0,0 position to the viewer, you get that affect
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Really Simon? The sim is putting the avatar at <0,0,0> ?
[11:58]	Tegg Bode:	Yeah but it doesn't mean one of the dozen ISP's between you and LL can't throttle your connection
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	i wounder if it would be possible that when an pysical object is selected, the object says the name of the one that selected?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, no I think some messages still only come through on UDP
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I guess that would be a detection event, that would be a new feature.
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	It sets the postion there temporairly -- I know it happens on rezzing and I'm pretty sure on TPs. It's supposed to change it to a real postion immedaitely
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	however I'm not an expert on the SL client these days.
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Some sims have a bunch of objects at <0,0,0>
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Not only Avs get dumped there
[12:00]	Siobhan McCallen:	I routinely check that spot for prim litter
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, you're asking if there is some way to register a "selection" event via LSL?
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Quite a garbage heap, when it finally gets noticed. I discovered it, when researching SLPP potentials. It's hard to get a relative Primatar Position.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Not yet. Theoretically it would be possible.
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	I think llRezObject() can dump stuff there if people aren't careful about the parameters
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought Rez-Object failed silently
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Avs editing (selecting) vehicles are an anoyance - I have to add more code to do things about it
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	I mean they aren't careful about global vs. local positions -- I've done that a few times
[12:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	there's also a hatful of products that use that point for a handy-dandy storage spot for things that are waiting for events to happen
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler thinks llRezRelative would be an improvement, since you don't always know, where the rezzers going to be, when the event happens
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	imagine there is a car race, and somebody selects a car, that causes the car to stop. it might be better if the car shouted the name of the person that selected it
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	yeah, you almost always use llGetPos() + <some offset>
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Its also one reason I gave up sailing races
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	llSetStatus(NO_SELECT, TRUE) wold also be nice.
[12:03]	Siobhan McCallen:	I always have problems with rezzers and the blasted rotations. they work great when facing east. turn the thing another direction, and everything goes haywire
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	I think that's a good solution ... some control on selectability to prevent people from stopping other's stuff
[12:03]	Tegg Bode:	Yeah that's a bit sad, though I did use it instead of freeze once on a griefers quadbike
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	*BUT* locking a dynamic object on select is a useful debug tool too
[12:04]	Siobhan McCallen:	I've tried figuring in the relative rotations, but it never works right
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	u can't have a race if somebody stops your vehicle:(
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	It would have to be carefully done to prevent adding more griefing techniques
[12:04]	Siobhan McCallen:	turn off grab on your vehicle
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	"grab" is distinct from "select"
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	u can't stop with turning off grab
[12:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	not_dynamic could be an event, shifting over to static llSetPos
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	I've got soooo much work to do, so I'm going to have to move along.
[12:05]	Siobhan McCallen:	m
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:05]	Siobhan McCallen:	okay andrew. thanks for being here for us
[12:06]	Vista Questi:	I'll bet you DO!
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Andrew
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Simon
[12:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Bi, Andrew, Simon, et al.
[12:06]	Siobhan McCallen:	oh, simon...loved the bear quest!
[12:06]	Vista Questi:	Thanks, Andrew :)
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye everyone
[12:06]	Drunk Dukes:	Hi everybody
[12:06]	Tegg Bode:	Last one up clears the table
[12:06]	Simon Linden:	oh, great ... glad you had fun
[12:06]	Astarte Wylie:	hi everyone
[12:06]	Siobhan McCallen:	it was great fun
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	and bye
[12:06]	Vista Questi:	hee hee i can't not! tt's!
[12:07]	Simon Linden:	I liked making it ... I think we need more stuff for people to do inside SL
[12:07]	Siobhan McCallen:	i wish more people did that