User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 02 03

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	Jessica Lyon:	Mew Andrew
[11:01]	Kitto Flora:	Hello Andrew, Simon
[11:01]	Chaley May:	nice boots Jessica
[11:01]	Jessica Lyon:	ty :)
[11:01]	Chaley May:	:)
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hi everyone.
[11:01]	Chaley May:	HI
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:01]	Helena Lycia:	Hiya
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Why Eve, how very Zen
[11:02]	Eve Mikazuki:	what?
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	I think a new server-1.25.5 "pilot deploy" went out this morning
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	The name God, punctuated by Hammer and Scyckle, the symbol of Goddless Communism.
[11:03]	Jessica Lyon:	sure did
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Check CG's office hour, to tell when.
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed, it seems that ware are currently using it in this region.
[11:03]	Eve Mikazuki:	no, i am the Goddess of Communism, touch
[11:03]	Jessica Lyon:	some of the sandboxes have already updated
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure what all the fixes are in server-1.25.5
[11:04]	Jessica Lyon:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/1.25
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I think the main was was a rollback of some improved LSL scheduler, that caused some scripts to break.
[11:04]	Jessica Lyon:	that was one of them yep
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	And at least one crash and exploit pair that I worked on. Probably not mentioned there, but nevertheless I can't talk about it ;-)
[11:05]	Jessica Lyon:	lol, tease
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	I've been in a couple sims that crashed
[11:05]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	In the last few days
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Our deploy team does not want to have to release a server-1.25.6
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	but we'll see if we can manage to get by without one
[11:06]	Jessica Lyon:	1.25 was a tough one it seems
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I think the next big project is what we call "etchification of the grid"
[11:06]	Object: Free memory:62176
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	etch is the current stable version of debian GNU/linux (soon to be replaced by "lenny")
[11:07]	Helena Lycia:	As opposed to itchification?
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Not Gibbonification?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	we've been on "sarge" which is no longer supported, so we're going to convert all the simulator hosts and other machines to use etch
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler preens: Itchiskitchification?
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	I think that this transition is also a 32bit --> 64bit thing
[11:08]	Lim Catteneo:	so there will be rolling restart to deploy etch?
[11:08]	Jessica Lyon:	nice
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Lim, however the etchification will take a month or so
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	so visible region dropouts will probably not be very noticable
[11:09]	Kitto Flora wonders how Debian compares with Ubuntu these days
[11:09]	Chaley May:	if SL is 64bit will you make it possible to have sims 512m big?
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	Unfortunately that's not going to help make larger sims
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	actually kitto I recently installed debian lenny on an old G4 laptop
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	it works pretty well
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	but experiencing the iceweasle debacle first hand was humorous
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Mega Sims have to be written in all those little habits of changing sim at 256
[11:10]	Helena Lycia:	iceweasle?
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, that was all the misc news and announcements that I had.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	iceweasle = firefox, without the firefox branding
[11:10]	Jessica Lyon:	< raises hand
[11:10]	Helena Lycia:	Oh
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Go ahead Jessica.
[11:11]	Jessica Lyon:	Andrew! lol, i'd like to talk to you breifly about posJump
[11:11]	Jessica Lyon:	which apparently is being fixed in 1.26?
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	remind me what posjump is
[11:11]	Jessica Lyon:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=PosJump&diff=184763&oldid=95114
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have w a Jira to vote on?
[11:11]	Jessica Lyon:	it's an alternative to warpPos, accept it's far easier on the sim
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	it is considered a bug, however.. harmless and very usefull
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	and apparently it's being fixed in 1.26
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	i have a better link, sec...
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:PosJump
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, the double PRIM_POSITION trick in llspp
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	that explains it alot better
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	ya
[11:12]	Jessica Lyon:	well, first, my question is why fix it?
[11:13]	Jessica Lyon:	considering it uses less overhead than warpPos and is easier on the simulator
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, I remember when that fix went in.
[11:14]	Chaley May:	i dont understand why they have these limits anyway
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Turns out the bug was in the math lib, amazingly enough.
[11:14]	Jessica Lyon:	< sadfaced when i read it was fixed
[11:14]	Jessica Lyon:	really?
[11:14]	Jessica Lyon:	huh
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	That is, the simulator logic was trying to do the right thing.
[11:14]	Jessica Lyon:	but what Chaley said.. why the limitation.. one can do the same thing by editing a cube they are sitting on and changing it's position
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	But there was some bug in the LLVector3 math class when trying to clamp large input.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	The original design was to limit how far away objects could jump, mostly to prevent them from taking over the world.
[11:16]	Jessica Lyon:	lol, understandable
[11:16]	Jessica Lyon:	however, of course warpPos can jump 4100 meters at a time when compiled to mono
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	So that limit was one of several nerf settings. We were worried about scriptable objects that could overrun the world faster than we could respond.
[11:16]	Jessica Lyon:	ah ok
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	How does limiting how far one Jump can be, prevent an object from 'taking over the world' ?
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Let's take a quick vote... who here thinks there should be a limit on PRIM_POSITION, and what do you think it should be?
[11:17]	Jessica Lyon:	well, my concern is of course, a vast number of content creators have used posjump in their products which are already widely distrubuted.. this will break alot of content
[11:17]	Chaley May:	10,000m
[11:17]	Imaze Rhiano:	there shouldn't be limit
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	1million:)
[11:17]	Helena Lycia:	I'm a big fan of WarpPos style scripts, I couldn't do without them... I'd like as few limits as possible
[11:17]	Jessica Lyon:	Andrew.. may i suggest...
[11:17]	Jessica Lyon:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2998
[11:17]	Jessica Lyon:	it makes perfect sense
[11:17]	Harvz Wilber:	10,000 sounds about right
[11:18]	Lim Catteneo:	well ihe object is non-physical it cannot cross sims, right?
[11:18]	Jessica Lyon:	i say limit it to within the simulator it is in.. please read that jira
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	No limit. If the desitnation is 'valid' any jump should be fine. Same as an Av TP
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Can anyone think of some new grief modes if we opened up unlimited PRIM_POSITION?
[11:18]	Helena Lycia:	You can get objects to cross sims but they tend to bork if complex and sat upon by agents
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	pe Teeporters cross sims all the time, but I don't know what cost.
[11:18]	Jessica Lyon:	yes, absolutely
[11:18]	Jessica Lyon:	unlimited would be a bad idea
[11:18]	Jessica Lyon:	PN would have a hayday on mainland
[11:18]	Harvz Wilber:	a whole grid of marios
[11:18]	Jessica Lyon:	but, limit it to within the simulator it is in
[11:19]	Chaley May:	seems strange to be worried about scripts and applying limits to them when they let people create there own clients that can do much more damage
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	There are some technical problems with determining a "valid" position from one region to another that is very far away.
[11:19]	Helena Lycia:	I find the 10m limit useful when developing stuff because it reduced cock-ups when developing...
[11:19]	Helena Lycia:	however when things are working nicely there are loads of legit uses for WarpPos style things
[11:20]	Jessica Lyon:	llWarpPos seems like a valid, plausable and reasonable request
[11:20]	Helena Lycia:	YEah
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'd like to hear some of the wonderful legit uses.
[11:20]	Lim Catteneo:	Helena, yeah me to actually, prevents you from losing prims all over the place :)
[11:20]	Jessica Lyon:	for unlimited warping.. teleporters.. that's abuot it
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Rez a sky box from the ground?
[11:20]	Harvz Wilber:	I would like to see unlimited vertical distance tho
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Moving a vehicle 'through a tunnel
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	i don't belive that being able to tp anywhere in the sim u r in can be a problem
[11:20]	Helena Lycia:	I use a scripted rezzer to build large buildings... WarpPos means they build in minutes rather than hours
[11:21]	Chaley May:	we should be able to create our own grid teleporters instead of relying on the world map.. thats the best use
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	To keep my prims in line, a Prim Map Feature would be good. I can see how a gullible newbi hud might abuse infinite rez distances.
[11:21]	Jessica Lyon:	well objects of course cant go above 4096
[11:21]	Helena Lycia:	I've used WarpPos for scanners to find griefers, and for TPs up to 4km up from ground level
[11:21]	Jessica Lyon:	unlimited warpPos would be bad
[11:21]	Imaze Rhiano:	why it would be bad?
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	how far does the PRIM_POSITION^2 misfeature get you these days? All the way across the grid?
[11:22]	Jessica Lyon:	i have to agree with Andrew on this.. i can see many ways of abusing that
[11:22]	Lim Catteneo:	a lot of these problem would be solved if we had llTeleportAgent() and associated PERMISSION_TELEPORT that would work the same way PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION
[11:22]	Jessica Lyon:	agree's with Lim
[11:22]	Jessica Lyon:	however, problem with llTeleportAgent is
[11:22]	Chaley May:	those who abuse SL dont need to travel from one end of the map to the other.. they will travel to each adjacent sim to launch their attacks
[11:22]	Imaze Rhiano:	agrees with Lim
[11:22]	Jessica Lyon:	if you sit on my object, i tp you to oblivion
[11:22]	Harvz Wilber:	horizontally it would be bad, but for beaming up to a starship or spacestation the limits can be constrainig
[11:23]	Helena Lycia:	A TP agent function would be nice but I don't want to loose WarpPos, unless an equivalent turned up
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	I'd say SOME of the problems would be solved by llTeleportAgent()
[11:23]	Jessica Lyon:	well, WarpPos isn't being broken
[11:23]	Jessica Lyon:	yet
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	If llTeleportAgent() existed would anyone here still complain about broken PRIM_POSITION^2 misfeature (fixed bug) ?
[11:23]	Lim Catteneo:	WarpPos is very tough on the viewer
[11:23]	Chaley May:	i cant think of an abuse that needs unlimited warppos
[11:23]	Harvz Wilber:	or is there no way to allow one direction and not the other 2
[11:23]	Jessica Lyon:	however posjump is.. err.. being fixed
[11:23]	Rex Cronon:	how about at least 256m horizontally and 4021m vertically?
[11:23]	Helena Lycia:	I would ANdrew
[11:23]	Lim Catteneo:	Andrew, I would not :)
[11:23]	Jessica Lyon:	Rez.. guys...
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Yes.
[11:24]	Helena Lycia:	A TP agent function would make nicer teleporters but wouldn't help with my larger buildings
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so a seed that builds a big building. What others?
[11:24]	Jessica Lyon:	WarpPos when set with a jump of 410.. and compiled to mono will warp 4100 meters in a jump
[11:24]	Imaze Rhiano:	llTeleportAgent is needed when teleporting to other Sims... llWarpPos would be great for skyboxes and such
[11:24]	Chaley May:	I would prefer to teleport objects because delibvery of updates to customers would be made much easier
[11:24]	Helena Lycia:	I use Warp Pos to scan a whole sim for people and/or objects
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Right, vehicles through walls, and convenient avatar local teleports.
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Moving vehicles past obstructions - when they cant drive through them, one has to jump past them.
[11:25]	Jessica Lyon:	i used to use warpPos for my scanner probes, however i changed them over to posjump
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	How does that work Helena? Your LSL sensor jumps about?
[11:25]	Jessica Lyon:	which i regret now lol
[11:25]	Jessica Lyon:	warpPos wont work on physicals
[11:25]	Jessica Lyon:	nor will posjump
[11:25]	Jessica Lyon:	so unless the vehicle was non phys
[11:26]	Helena Lycia:	I rez 9 scanners that warp up to 4km and then scan & jump back down reporting via RegionSay to a HUD that reports the results
[11:26]	Jessica Lyon:	that wouldnt be useable
[11:26]	Helena Lycia:	Great for finding people when policing a sim
[11:26]	Andrew Linden is still confused about the difference betwen warPos and posJump.
[11:26]	Jessica Lyon:	most scanner huds do that
[11:26]	Kitto Flora:	Yes: The vehicle is switched non-phys, jumped, then switched back to phys.
[11:26]	Helena Lycia:	I think they are both workarounds to the 10m limit on llSetPos
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler expects PosJump to be less script burden than WarpPos: What reason have we for Limits? I still don't know why SVC-2931 was ordered borken
[11:26]	Helena Lycia:	just doing it in different ways
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	warpos uses an aarray, and is memory dependent
[11:26]	Jessica Lyon:	what Arawn said
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so what if we just increased the limits of the jump distance.
[11:27]	Jessica Lyon:	the over head for posjump is far less than warppos
[11:27]	Jessica Lyon:	that would be a good fix Andrew
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	We would also probably have to add a temporal throttle to it if the current one is not enough... hrm.
[11:27]	Jessica Lyon:	did you read the jira i suggested?
[11:27]	Helena Lycia:	I also use a non-phys vehicle when policing sims... I rez a meeting room and get the people I want to sit in it and then warp it away for privacy
[11:27]	Jessica Lyon:	please have a quick scan through this.. it's valid to this subject
[11:27]	Imaze Rhiano:	both are hacks... and would be better if there would be real functions for that functionality
[11:27]	Jessica Lyon:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2998
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	what Imaze said.. as the jira i just posted is related too
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	I am in favor of real features rather than supported legacy misfeatures.
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	yes, me too
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	absolutely
[11:28]	Harvz Wilber:	agreed
[11:28]	Helena Lycia:	Me too
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	this is the overhead of posjump
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION, <1.304382E+19, 1.304382E+19, 0.0>, PRIM_POSITION, target_pos, PRIM_POSITION, start_pos, PRIM_POSITION, target_pos]);
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	But, in order to do something like change the limit to llSetPos()... it would require someon inside LL to push that through the system.
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	this is the overhead of warpPos
[11:28]	Jessica Lyon:	warpPos( vector destpos )
	{ //R&D by Keknehv Psaltery, 05/25/2006
	//with a little poking by Strife, and a bit more
	//some more munging by Talarus Luan
	//Final cleanup by Keknehv Psaltery
	//Changed jump value to 411 (4096 ceiling) by Jesse Barnett
	// Compute the number of jumps necessary
	integer jumps = (integer)(llVecDist(destpos, llGetPos()) / 10.0) + 1;
	// Try and avoid stack/heap collisions
	if (jumps > 411)
	jumps = 411;
	list rules = [ PRIM_POSITION, destpos ]; //The start for the rules list
	integer count = 1;
	while ( ( count = count << 1 ) < jumps)
	rules = (rules=[]) + rules + rules; //should tighten memory use.
	llSetPrimitiveParams( rules + llList2List( rules, (count - jumps) << 1, count) );
	if ( llVecDist( llGetPos(), destpos ) > .001 ) //Failsafe
	while ( --jumps )
	llSetPos( destpos );
[11:29]	Helena Lycia:	I would go for a new function
[11:29]	Harvz Wilber:	"misfeatures" is that like Aphids, bugs that are helpful??
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	One motivated person, or a broad consensus can do it.
[11:29]	Jessica Lyon:	yet, posjump was fixed
[11:29]	Helena Lycia:	people might have code expecting llSetPos to work as it currently does
[11:29]	Jessica Lyon:	elimitate both overheads with llWarpPos
[11:29]	Helena Lycia:	A new function would allow replacement of WarpPos/PosJump but not weird out existing uses of llSEtPos
[11:29]	Jessica Lyon:	with a reasonable jump limit within the region
[11:29]	Jessica Lyon:	right Helena
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I'd rather keep the jumps inside the region if possible
[11:30]	Jessica Lyon:	i can totally agree with that Andrew.. it makes sense to keep it inside the region.. due to greifing potential
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	and giving objects unlimited power to jump around sends off warning bells in my head.
[11:30]	Helena Lycia:	I'd agree Andrew
[11:30]	Helena Lycia:	With the former point
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	not in same sim
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	llSetPos is just a shorthand for llPrimitivePArams, but they carry a .2 second sleep. How much more sleep should be added, for inter sim apps?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	I used to have to actually deal with griefers as part of my job (gridmonkey and support)
[11:31]	Jessica Lyon:	nooo need for sleep
[11:31]	Helena Lycia:	WarpPos has been around for a long time and is fiarly commonly used but I haven't heard much about people missusing it to grief
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	nowadays I usually just try to code grief modes out
[11:31]	Jessica Lyon:	i deal with greifers all the time lol, i'm usually in the weapons testing sandbox scrpting
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	Preventing inter-region jumps will prevent - or make difficult - or add overhead - to vehicles that deal with the 'tunnels' on the road routes that the LDPW is making.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	so I'm hesitant to add a new powerful functionality that could be used to create all sorts of havoc
[11:31]	Chaley May:	i dont see how griefers can use an ability to teleport unlimited
[11:31]	Jessica Lyon:	i know what PN is capable of.. and other groups.. having a gid wide ability to warp objects would be extremely bad
[11:32]	Jessica Lyon:	however.. what harm could come from having the limitation inside the region the object exists in
[11:32]	Helena Lycia:	I realise that griefing is always an issue but I hate it when I can't do something responsibly because of fear that someone else will grief
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	at least unlimited locally
[11:32]	Jessica Lyon:	as it is.. warpPos can jump 4100 meters
[11:32]	Jessica Lyon:	so that is already a reality
[11:32]	Jessica Lyon:	why not make it a function
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	jessica that is 4100 meters up only, or horizontally too?
[11:32]	Jessica Lyon:	4100 any direction
[11:33]	Jessica Lyon:	integer jumps = (integer)(llVecDist(destpos, llGetPos()) / 10.0) + 1;
	// Try and avoid stack/heap collisions
	if (jumps > 411)
	jumps = 411;
[11:33]	Jessica Lyon:	actually 4110 meter jump
[11:33]	Jessica Lyon:	when compiled to mono
[11:33]	Helena Lycia:	There is one thing about WarpPos that does limit grief possibilities... I haven't checked recently but it used to be the case that if one of the 10m jumps would be in land with some script/object limitations then the WarpPos would fail at that point
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... the large building application doesn't need jumps that large
[11:33]	Helena Lycia:	So WarpPos could only be used with impunity in a sim if you had rights over the whole sim
[11:33]	Jessica Lyon:	it is used for sensors quite often
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	it doesnt fail
[11:34]	Imaze Rhiano:	you can't deny of adding official support for features that are already widely in use, because of grief monster.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	give me some really good examples of cool content that can jump 4110 meters. Ok, convenient teleporters. Others?
[11:34]	Helena Lycia:	Depends how large the building is lol
[11:34]	Jessica Lyon:	most weapons creators use warpPos or posJump
[11:34]	Jessica Lyon:	which is a legit and large community
[11:34]	Helena Lycia:	The meeting room thing I use, but that's basically a fancy TP
[11:34]	Harvz Wilber:	touring shuttles
[11:34]	Helena Lycia:	I've built buildings over 1km in height before
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so attacking your enemies from several regions away.
[11:35]	Jessica Lyon:	nooo!
[11:35]	Jessica Lyon:	keep it in the region
[11:35]	Jessica Lyon:	as i said
[11:35]	Helena Lycia:	Keep limited to the sim the object's in
[11:35]	Jessica Lyon:	i'm in no way in favor of warppos being used beyond the region it is in
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	ok
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Bus service on Route 8 that can deal with the Route8 'tunnels' that span several regions.
[11:35]	Jessica Lyon:	however.. eliminate the overhead being used already.. and make llWarpPos a valid lsl function
[11:36]	Jessica Lyon:	this willl be easier on the simulators
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... actually that is pretty interesting Kitto.
[11:36]	Harvz Wilber:	building a ship or station near ground level then raising ti into space
[11:37]	Helena Lycia:	I and a friend worked on a big building for several months, tweaking various parts, if it weren't for our WarpPos rezzer device it would ahve taken months more
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if it would be possible to make a feature where the ends of the tunnel could register, and be used to span half the world.
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Adrew: Yes.. if the tunnel ends cooperate nicely :)
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	What would be a problem, if we allow vehicles to teleport?
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	ok, well I'll try to start an internal discussion about warPos, to see what other LL dev's want to do with it.
[11:38]	Jessica Lyon:	if a vehicle can teleport.. a PN replicator can teleport
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	posJump is fixed in server-1.26 you say
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	as it stands, WarpPos has been said that it WILL NOT be fixed
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's a PN REplicator?
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	and you're interested in getting it removed from there?
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	posjump however. has been fixed
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	i would rather not see posjump fixed
[11:39]	Helena Lycia:	WarpPos was fixed a while back but residents kicked up a fuss and it was unfixed
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	that is, you want the misfeature turned into a legacy supported feature?
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	as it will break alot of content.. fortunately creators can always go back to warpPos
[11:39]	Harvz Wilber:	any greifer attack will have a quick escape
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Really Helena?
[11:39]	Helena Lycia:	Yes
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	yes
[11:39]	Helena Lycia:	Can't remember when
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	and LL stated they wont fix warPos
[11:39]	Jessica Lyon:	WarpPos*
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Well, then I won't bother looking into it.
[11:39]	Chaley May:	I wont think we need to worry about unlimited warps being used for griefing when they have all they need allready in warppos. the limits only really prefent genuine uses now
[11:40]	Jessica Lyon:	but posJump.. slightly different
[11:40]	Chaley May:	*prevent
[11:40]	Jessica Lyon:	what Chaley said
[11:40]	Helena Lycia:	WapPos could be worth doing properly with a sensible function though
[11:40]	Harvz Wilber:	they could zip in anywhere, kick up a ruckus and zip out
[11:40]	Kitto Flora agrees with Charley
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	The yalready can Harvz
[11:40]	Jessica Lyon:	my point Andrew is this.. since LL's standpoint is that they will not fix warpPos, then why not eliminate the overhead and make it an official function in lsl
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	hence the llWarpPos() proposal
[11:41]	Jessica Lyon:	yus :)
[11:41]	Jessica Lyon:	it's widely used
[11:41]	Helena Lycia:	I think the anti-grief limits on what new-rezzed objects can do prevent some grief uses of
[11:41]	Jessica Lyon:	make it easier on simulators by making it a function without the overhead
[11:41]	Helena Lycia:	Yep
[11:41]	Chaley May:	yeah bring warppos :)
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	laziness, I guess. It is easier to leave the misfeature than to implement a new feature.
[11:41]	Jessica Lyon:	lol
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Also, when MONO was in progress there was a moratorium on adding new LSL functions.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	That is still in effect, basically.
[11:42]	Jessica Lyon:	only a few were added
[11:42]	Jessica Lyon:	which i LOVE
[11:42]	Jessica Lyon:	but i'd love to see more
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	From my point of view anyway. Until the MONO team starts adding the features they want, I wouldn't want to add new LSL calls.
[11:43]	Jessica Lyon:	sadface
[11:43]	Helena Lycia:	A friend says that LL fixed and had to unfix WarpPos twice
[11:43]	Jessica Lyon:	but i understand
[11:43]	Jessica Lyon:	it was just once to my knowledge Helena
[11:43]	Helena Lycia:	March 07 was one of the times
[11:43]	Jessica Lyon:	creators outraged about it
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	If that is true Helena, then warpPos is unfortunately a supported misfeature. It will never get fixed.
[11:43]	Jessica Lyon:	as i expect many will outrage against posjump having been fixed
[11:43]	Helena Lycia:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-47
[11:43]	Jessica Lyon:	no one is aware it's been fixed in 1.26 yet
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe Jessica should lean on the MONO devs for a new feature (Are they accessible?)
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I, certainly, lack the willpower to try to fix it. I've lost that battle way too many times on other misfeatures.
[11:44]	Jessica Lyon:	sigh
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage Linden has office hours. He is on the MONO team.
[11:44]	Jessica Lyon:	that's the one Helena, ty
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Why don't we develop something for Mono, and break the iertia?
[11:44]	Jessica Lyon:	hmm, i should poke Bab then
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed Jessica. The posJump supporters are going to have to rise up and rattle all the Linden's they can get their hands on.
[11:45]	Jessica Lyon:	i suspect it will be a losing battle
[11:45]	Jessica Lyon:	sadly
[11:45]	Jessica Lyon:	i have days of re scripting to do now
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Not necessarily. You could try to get Prospero Linden on your side. He has successfully saved some misfeatures from getting fixed in the past.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	bugs I mean.
[11:46]	Jessica Lyon:	hmm, I'll poke him too then lol
[11:47]	Jessica Lyon:	of course.. with the fact that WarpPos still exists.. seeing that there is that alternative to posjump..
[11:47]	Jessica Lyon:	i wont hold my breath lol.
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Whats the status of improving sim boundary crossings?
[11:48]	Helena Lycia corsses fingers
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, we are not tackling that problem yet, not in a coordinated way.
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	maybe warppos will be "fixed" too. what will happen than?
[11:48]	Helena Lycia:	:(
[11:48]	Jessica Lyon:	no, LL is supporting it
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Doug Linden and I talked about maybe trying to get on boundary crossings this quarter.
[11:48]	Jessica Lyon:	just no official function for it Rex.. that's what i'm proposing now
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: That would be nice :)
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	but I'm not sure it will happen. We've got a new team forming for scaling the grid (database and other things), and the roster for that team had to be pulled form other important teams
[11:49]	Jessica Lyon:	less hiring, more shuffling
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	getting some people together this quarter to tackle boundary crossings and the many bugs there is unlikely
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Instead of a special llWarpPos, we could simply unlimit PRIM_POSITION
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm hoping to be able to actually fix bugs this quarter, so maybe I'll be able to wander into that code.
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	YEah well - scaling ... its a problem too
[11:50]	Jessica Lyon:	LL is bracing for epic growth
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	indeed, it is full of tough calls
[11:50]	Jessica Lyon:	and focusing on growth
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Is LL actually growing - land wise?
[11:50]	Helena Lycia:	Hiya Tal
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	work on important project or very important project?
[11:51]	Jessica Lyon:	always Kitto.. and population wise of course
[11:51]	Talarus Luan:	Heyas
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:51]	Jessica Lyon:	Mew Tal
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I think SL is growing. LL is not expanding very fast right now.
[11:51]	Talarus Luan:	Sorry to pop in at the end.. but just wanted to ask about the status of llTeleportAgent before PosJump was "fixed". :)
[11:51]	Jessica Lyon:	Tal.. we were just talking about posJump being fixed in 1.26.... you've missed it sadly
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	llTeleportAgent was a feature idea that was cancelled after there were some problems with it
[11:52]	Talarus Luan:	Yeah, so I heard :-/
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know what the problems were -- new greif modes I think
[11:52]	Jessica Lyon:	llTeleportAgent could be abused
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	I wasn't on the project
[11:52]	Jessica Lyon:	easilly abused
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah _ I ment SL - land wise. With the tighter economy and increased prices, I'd expect a slow down in real land usage.
[11:52]	Lim Catteneo:	Jessica everything can be abused
[11:52]	Talarus Luan:	Well, are there any plans to give us a way to TP people without having to use hacks?
[11:52]	Jessica Lyon:	overall Kitto.. on a time scale.. land ssales are down
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Ok kitto, we're not expecting much slowdown of SL growth actually.
[11:53]	Lim Catteneo:	you can get your avatar deformed by just sitting on an object
[11:53]	Harvz Wilber:	when things are ruff in RL peopel need a refuge
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	Oh I was in a well-managed 'Homestead' sim with a lot of scripts - and LSL was actually running at a decent speed.
[11:53]	Jessica Lyon:	exactly how teleportagent would be abused Lim
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	some people would even like to have portals:)
[11:53]	Talarus Luan:	PosJump worked wonderfully well
[11:53]	Chaley May:	people just need educating
[11:53]	Chaley May:	not to click things
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	SL should get an influx of the unemployed, and classes in Work-Seek could be very profitable, here.
[11:53]	Jessica Lyon:	yes Tal.. i'm going to miss it
[11:53]	Talarus Luan:	Well, as good as the client could handle it
[11:53]	Talarus Luan:	anyway
[11:53]	Lim Catteneo:	Jessice, llTeleportAgent would fix sooo many of the lsl cludges
[11:54]	Jessica Lyon:	i'm considering writing a jira ahead of time to ask for it back
[11:54]	Jessica Lyon:	true Lim
[11:54]	Helena Lycia:	Portal prims would be cool
[11:54]	Lim Catteneo:	warppos was invented for teleport purposes
[11:54]	Lim Catteneo:	and i guess 95% of its use is for teleportation
[11:54]	Talarus Luan:	I agree that we shouldn't depend on these continued hacks, but we really need that functionality in the canon
[11:54]	Talarus Luan:	..so we don't have to rely on them
[11:54]	Jessica Lyon:	Tal..
[11:55]	Helena Lycia:	Agreed
[11:55]	Jessica Lyon:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2998
[11:55]	Chaley May:	I think keeping things out of SL because of griefers is letting griefers win
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have we a jira for TPAgent?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, I agree. The focus of LL these days is stability and retention. However I think that a trickle of new features is required for growth and retention.
[11:55]	Talarus Luan:	Yeah, I'll be happy to vote on them all.
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Haha - I recon a third of my vehicle code is hacks to deal with problems and lack of resonable features in LSL
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	The rate of new features has slowed.
[11:56]	Talarus Luan:	I would just like to know if there is real support for giving us the features we need at the same time as removing the hack-ish stuff.
[11:56]	Harvz Wilber:	I have noticed that as the new features have slowed, stability has been bettr
[11:56]	Chaley May:	if your so afraid of scripts being used by griefers maybe you should make some functions only work for premium accounts
[11:56]	Helena Lycia:	The voting on feature requests means that some really clever thinking often never gets implemented because it doesn't get the votes
[11:56]	Talarus Luan:	Removing the hacks without doing the other first is asking for trouble, IMO
[11:56]	Rex Cronon:	that is bad chaley
[11:56]	Chaley May:	i would have a premium account just so i can have the ability to tp objects to anywhere in the grid and pay for it
[11:57]	Jessica Lyon:	well, having a premium account doesnt guarentee you wont use such things for greifing purposes
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	Oh yes - limiting some abilities to Premium Accts only - that would be a HUGE boost to OpenSim :)
[11:57]	Harvz Wilber:	that would lead to a kind of social elitism
[11:57]	Talarus Luan:	Well, I wouldn't expect to be able to TP objects anywhere on the grid; I just want to stop having to use hacks like PosJump and WarpPos
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	We won't do that for accounts, but perhaps script running permissions could use an overhaul -- if we could come up with a good design
[11:57]	Chaley May:	but it means to grief it would be costing me money
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	TeleportAgent is one that might be premi only, but should at least require owner property, and perms might be adjustabe.
[11:57]	Helena Lycia:	I'd love to be able to TP objects, with me sat on them around the grid... or have attachable vehicles
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	but if u sell those objects your customers would need to have the same ability
[11:58]	Helena Lycia:	Which is something I wanted to ask about... is it removely posisble for attachable vehicles to be made possible?
[11:58]	Chaley May:	i was not needing the customers to have this ability
[11:58]	Jessica Lyon:	good point Rex
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Attachable vehicles? I think some people make them.
[11:58]	Chaley May:	in fact this ability was to update customers products
[11:58]	Helena Lycia:	It's the biggest ask for uses of my dragon saddles, to be able to TP and continue to use them
[11:58]	Talarus Luan:	Not what she meant, I think. ;)
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	I've definitely seen some sailboats where a large part of it was an attachment
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, you mean avatars with riders?
[11:59]	Helena Lycia:	Ah
[11:59]	Talarus Luan:	Yeah, basically
[11:59]	Harvz Wilber:	I have a boat like that
[11:59]	Jessica Lyon:	ability to sit on an avatars attachment would be win
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I forget why avatars may not be ridden
[11:59]	Helena Lycia:	You can attach parts for effect but the vehicle itself has to be a rezzed object that you sit on as far as I understand it
[11:59]	Jessica Lyon:	providing there is a permission check
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	That would be hard, unfortunately. The code has a lot of assumptions about avatars not being attached.
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	They eisted, when SL was efore y time
[11:59]	Harvz Wilber:	part is attached, to the av, the other part is in the sim linked on
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	So it would require a pretty big cleanup / refactor of some fundamental simulator code.
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	vehicles are also a special type of physical object, and attachments aren't physical
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	Yeah
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	They did exist as a misfeature once long ago, but they also crashed the region when one or the other logged off
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	That's whay I wanted to ask here before raising a JIRA that would probably get nowhere
[12:00]	Talarus Luan:	Well, anyway.. that's all I wanted to know about. Sorry to hear PosJump was fixed without an official replacement. :-/
[12:00]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao off
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	I'd like to understand why it wouldn't happen
[12:01]	Jessica Lyon:	Tala, i'll link you to my jira if i decide to make one
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	See if you get the same crash mode, under H4?
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	but at a higher level, it might be best to describe what you want to do rather than the specific implementation
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Er - does the old 'pony' code with the saddle. .. no longer work?
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	I think the pony was a big workaround. You weren't really attached to the pony.
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Pony Linden had a saddle
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, I have to run. I have another meeting starting now.
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:02]	Jessica Lyon:	ty for your time Andrew!
[12:02]	Harvz Wilber:	would be nice if 2 avs could walk holding hands with a more realistic look and without attchments
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:02]	Helena Lycia:	At it's simplest level I'd like to be able to alter the way an agent moves, the way it turns in flight, the the speed of movement, without doing some of the weird hacks people do with forces
[12:02]	Chaley May:	bye Andrew
[12:02]	Lim Catteneo:	thanks andrew
[12:02]	Harvz Wilber:	bye andrew
[12:02]	Lim Catteneo:	bye all
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Lunchtime
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[12:03]	Jessica Lyon:	thx too Simon