User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 08 10

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Transcript

[10:59] Moon Metty: hey Andrew :)
[10:59] Youri Ashton: hi andrew
[10:59] reddot99 Republic: hey andrew, got a sim crash mode for ya
[10:59] Ardy Lay: Hi Andrew
[10:59] Latif Khalifa: hey andrew :)
[10:59] Andrew Linden: hello
[11:00] Welcome to Linden office hours
[11:00] reddot99 Republic: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-730
[11:00] Andrew Linden: The internet is not something that you just dump something on.
[11:00] Andrew Linden: It's not a big truck.
[11:00] Andrew Linden: It's a series of Tubes!
[11:00] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:00] Moon Metty: hehehe
[11:00] Ovaltine Constantine: Teehee
[11:01] Andrew Linden: Sorry, that's what I'm listening to on my music stream.
[11:01] Jumpman Lane: lol if u say so
[11:01] Youri Ashton: its more a series of 1's and 0's
[11:01] Andrew Linden: Ok seriously...
[11:01] Andrew Linden: reddot99, you have a crash mode?
[11:01] reddot99 Republic: yeah
[11:01] Ovaltine Constantine: Stop The Madness
[11:01] reddot99 Republic: sec 730
[11:01] Andrew Linden: you mean you have an object that can crash? ok good, an SEC issue
[11:02] reddot99 Republic: from havok 7 rez queue overflowing
[11:02] reddot99 Republic: at least, thats my bet as to cause
[11:02] Youri Ashton: no Simon today?
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: havok 7 rez queue seems to wreck havoc ;)
[11:02] Andrew Linden: Oh right. Simon said he can't make it today.
[11:02] Andrew Linden: He's got another meeting that is interferring with this one.
[11:03] reddot99 Republic: was reproduced several times, apparently,
[11:03] Youri Ashton: ah okay, 2bad he can not join us
[11:03] reddot99 Republic: though, it'd be difficult to use as a greifing vector as it requires multiple people
[11:03] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for mentioning that crash mode reddot99. I'll look at it later today.
[11:04] Jumpman Lane: Jumpman lane
[11:04] reddot99 Republic: as one person would hit grey goo fence too soon
[11:04] Sindra Aquila: i think i saw grey goo fence working, not sure, but all pgys stopped it was not seen before
[11:05] Sindra Aquila: many phys objects in the air
[11:05] reddot99 Republic: thats called physlock
[11:05] Chaley May: /
[11:06] Andrew Linden: I don't have much news today. I'm currently working on a testplan for the SVC-93 fix, so I can make sure it is working correctly before I submit it.
[11:06] http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
[11:06] Moon Metty: cool
[11:06] Moon Metty: i added a comment today
[11:07] Moon Metty: i'm not sure if it's a good idea .. but there you have it
[11:07] Andrew Linden: Someone was telling me about a problem where dynamic (physics) objects are moving to <128,128,0> in cases of extreme lag.
[11:07] Andrew Linden: Has anyone here seen that happen?
[11:07] reddot99 Republic: christoph naumova?
[11:08] Andrew Linden: Yeah.
[11:08] Youri Ashton: isnt that the same as my problem?
[11:08] reddot99 Republic: he was saying they moved to there waiting for rez queue
[11:08] Sindra Aquila: in a very laggy situation all seems onlyt to stop
[11:09] reddot99 Republic: because you can see them be created and then they disappear all of a sudden
[11:09] Sindra Aquila: they cluster in a bunch, then move again, bit not seen displacement
[11:10] reddot99 Republic: i was trying to make something so i could see where objects went during the rez queue time
[11:10] Andrew Linden: ok, that is now known as "physlock", but you aren't seeing them migrate to <128,128,0>?
[11:11] reddot99 Republic: that would require somebody to be looking at that position
[11:11] Moon Metty: would a sensor pick the objects up?
[11:11] Sindra Aquila: no, they disaappeared, then rezzed in a cluster, after time they moved again, where they were supposed ot go,
[11:11] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[11:11] Andrew Linden: yeah, but big objects on shallow regions might be visible.
[11:11] reddot99 Republic: sensors run in loops strangely during rez queuing
[11:12] reddot99 Republic: they contunue even if theres a control event telling them to stop
[11:13] reddot99 Republic: sensor repeat anyhow does that
[11:14] Andrew Linden: Well, you're all going to have to come up with agenda items today. I don't have much.
[11:14] reddot99 Republic: the center of sim thing seems to simply be a spot where havok 7 is processing queue based from,
[11:15] Sindra Aquila: any progress in making a material with very high friction or restitution?
[11:15] Youri Ashton: well, can always tell how far you are on the problem I told you :p
[11:15] Andrew Linden: I've got to wrap up a few misc coding projects that are pending review (terrain collisions, and SVC-93) then maybe start working on a few eays bugs for a day or two
[11:15] Moon Metty: :)
[11:15] reddot99 Republic: anything from falcon on raycasting?
[11:15] Opensource Obscure: ( if/when there aren't other topics, I'd like to learn more about how child agents impact on a region )
[11:15] Andrew Linden: Sindra, Falcon was working on the customizable friction/restitution.
[11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: a status update on the HTTP Texture work would be cool, if you have time.
[11:16] Techwolf Lupindo: /me looks for flying pigs, LL is actually fixing bugs. :-)
[11:16] Andrew Linden: He showed me a demo of the high friction working.
[11:16] Andrew Linden: Dunno where it sits right now.
[11:16] Sindra Aquila: nice, so there is some progress
[11:16] Techwolf Lupindo: I've created a few jiras on the http texture stuff for sim side.
[11:16] Andrew Linden: I don't know the state of the raycasting project.
[11:17] Andrew Linden: Falcon was out of the office for a while, but he just got back.
[11:17] reddot99 Republic: i've found a couple of older projects that need raycasting to work properly, and vehicles even, which i remember he had mentioned
[11:17] Andrew Linden: I'll probably have more Falcon news on Friday.
[11:17] Kitto Flora: Andrew, can you say if LL ever talked to Havok engineers about the 'fin' probblem, back in the time of the h1/h4 change over, and what Havok may have said about the problem?
[11:18] reddot99 Republic: fin problem?
[11:18] Andrew Linden: Anybody know? Does LL provide a SnowGlobe build? Or do you have to build it yourself?
[11:18] reddot99 Republic: they provide one
[11:18] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks.
[11:18] Sindra Aquila: i have snowglobe and downloaded it
[11:18] reddot99 Republic: i dont know how to build a veiwer, so yeah, they'd have to
[11:18] Andrew Linden: The "fin problem" is what Kitto Flora calls the "collisions on hidden faces at prim boundaries" problem.
[11:19] Sindra Aquila: it works very good sofar
[11:19] Moon Metty: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe
[11:19] Opensource Obscure: there are links to three builds of Snowglobe , automatically updated there
[11:19] Andrew Linden: Where a vehicle bumps over the seam where two prims bump up next to each other.
[11:19] Kitto Flora: SVC-5880 is one of many bug reports all relating to spurious collision 'fins' on prim cornerrs
[11:19] http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5880
[11:19] Opensource Obscure: (er, not sure about that 'automatically')
[11:19] Andrew Linden: I'm pretty sure Falcon has an experimental fix for the "fin" problem. I need to ask him for the latest state of that.
[11:20] Ardy Lay: We had to have a few regions restarted last night as textures were not loading via HTTP. The requests were acting like they had hit a "tar pit".
[11:20] Kitto Flora: But what of discussion with Havok LLC?
[11:20] Ardy Lay: OO, yes, that page is being updated prgrammatically.
[11:20] Andrew Linden: Oh really? HTTP texture downloads can get blocked? Hrm.
[11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Sit down, Ovaltine
[11:21] Sindra Aquila: lol
[11:21] Ardy Lay: Andrew, it "felt like" the requests were hitting a "tar pit server", if you know what those are.
[11:21] Andrew Linden: I downloaded the experimental HTTP texture enabled viewer, but havent' yet installed it.
[11:22] Andrew Linden: No, I'm not familiar with a "tar pit" server, but I can guess what the performance is like.
[11:22] Ardy Lay: TCP SYN was getting ACKd just soon enough to keep the viewer from giving up.
[11:22] Moundsa Mayo: Do those run the 'La Brea' Linux distro?
[11:23] Andrew Linden: No, all of our servers run debian/GNU-Linux
[11:23] Ardy Lay: The simulator was giving us the HTTP Textures CAP and URLs and the tar-pit-like behaviour was preventing fallback to UDP.
[11:23] reddot99 Republic: andrew, i think you missed the joke,
[11:23] Moundsa Mayo: He's not an Angeleno B^)
[11:24] Andrew Linden: Yeah probably. "La Brea" is a name of some tar pits?
[11:24] reddot99 Republic: the la brea tarpits are famous for containing lots of fossils
[11:24] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, in downtown LA
[11:24] Moon Metty: hehehe
[11:24] Ardy Lay: So we just saw cached textures and all else was grey or round in the case of sculpted prims.
[11:25] Ardy Lay: A tar-pit server is designed to hold the attention of scanning malware for analysis.
[11:25] Andrew Linden: interesting. I can't remember which LL devs are the current experts at the HTTP download pipeline.
[11:25] Andrew Linden: I'll try to remember to ask around.
[11:25] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: Imprudence's latest weekly is running very stably with HTTP Textures (including Robin's latest fixes from Snowglobe). I'm running it now (Linux), it works a treat -- http://imprudenceviewer.org/2010/08/08/imprudence-weekly-release-2010-08-07/
[11:27] Ardy Lay: The fun thing about the issues was once you visited a region you "got tar in your sockets" and HTTP textures failed to function at the viewer in all other regions you visited until you relogged.
[11:27] Andrew Linden: That's good to hear Morgaine. I'm looking forward to those fixes getting distributed more.
[11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: any idea on the state of HTTP Texture work with respect to bakes?
[11:28] Ardy Lay: Texture console showed dozens of pending connections and they did the hold-off dance instead of resetting when the texture was no longer in-scene.
[11:28] Andrew Linden: No Morgaine. Are baked textures currently not included in the set of textures served by HTTP ?
[11:29] Ardy Lay: Looks like baked skins are NOT available to be fetched via HTTP.
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: I believe that Robin and Latif say that no, currently. And there is a problem with bake uploads too, in that the cap is disabled I think. Latif knows the details.
[11:29] Andrew Linden: Well if that is true Ardy then I suspect they'll be able to fix that tar-pit bug.
[11:30] office hours is half over
[11:30] Andrew Linden: It shouldn't be too hard to remove pending textures that are no longer in view.
[11:32] Andrew Linden: I was thinking about how to also send down the region's static geometry data via HTTP.
[11:32] Morgaine Dinova: yes!
[11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Robin mentioned that today too. Needs doing.
[11:32] Andrew Linden: That is one of the directions we're thinking about going for initial overhaul of the "interestlist" stuff
[11:33] reddot99 Republic: have they included your sobjects discovery in most of the newer veiwer builds?
[11:33] Andrew Linden: it isn't in 2.1.0 yet, but is in a beta 2.1.1, and also in snowglobe
[11:33] Andrew Linden: the 2.1.1 will be released publicly soon, I hear.
[11:34] Opensource Obscure: a beta was released today
[11:34] Moon Metty: it 's already out
[11:34] Opensource Obscure: not officially announced yet i think though
[11:34] Morgaine Dinova: All the active TPVs seem to have it in. What a good find.
[11:34] Andrew Linden: honestly, I thought it was out already and went looking on the main secondlife.com download page for it
[11:34] Andrew Linden: but couldn't find it
[11:34] Moon Metty: it's not on the download page, no
[11:34] Opensource Obscure: it's in the wiki. http://bit.ly/bhJzrt
[11:35] reddot99 Republic: ok, that works for me, i dont like veiwer 2 still, i'm going to keep using snowglobe or other clients with the older ui,
[11:35] Youri Ashton: ugh, i wonder why some people keep causing problems, just had to make sure a newby didnt use his "fun" again in a friends sim
[11:35] Sindra Aquila: also because mouselook?
[11:35] Youri Ashton: heya rex
[11:36] reddot99 Republic: i dont know what happens to mouselook in veiwer 2
[11:36] Rex Cronon: hi youri
[11:36] Andrew Linden: Ardy I've been meaning to mention to you... the overhaul of group chat will probably fix some of your issues with losing individual-to-individual chat
[11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: are you looking to make the interest list cap-driven? We've long wanted the ability to select what is sent to client, for example no graphic data at all for text-only clients. Big saving for all.
[11:36] Sindra Aquila: cluttering up, you cant set #lines, and the plain tekst is not all in left corner
[11:36] Ardy Lay: Andrew, that good to hear.
[11:37] Andrew Linden: as I understand it, one-to-one chat is a much easier sub-problem of the group chat one, and they're planning on overhauling all of the chat pipeline
[11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Good news
[11:37] Vikas Jules: is der ny indian
[11:38] Rex Cronon: there is a problem with one 2 one chat?
[11:38] reddot99 Republic: does that mean the various hack's people have found to say things to everyone in region wont work anymore?
[11:38] Andrew Linden: Morgaine, I had an interesting talk with another LL dev about whether to complicate the interestlist download pipeline with type subscription
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: With what outcome?
[11:39] Andrew Linden: he was making a compelling argument for just keeping the system simple and packing it up into not too big HTTP downloads
[11:39] Andrew Linden: so that is probably the way we'll go -- everything (static) that we currently cache would be in a few ~100kB HTTP assets
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well I can't see any compelling argument for sending text-only client graphic data :P
[11:40] Andrew Linden: once we know how to efficiently break up the whole set into such chunks perhaps we can start typing it out and making the various types subscribable
[11:40] reddot99 Republic: morgaine, remember youtube's aprilfools day joke?
[11:40] Sindra Aquila: in mouselook it is necessary, not out of it
[11:40] reddot99 Republic: ASCIp?
[11:41] reddot99 Republic: thats what should be done, lol
[11:41] Techwolf Lupindo: /me returns from creating another http texture sim jira and catches up on chat.
[11:41] Morgaine Dinova: 100Kb versus zero. Lemme see now, that's a ratio of infinity. Not a large enough saving? ;-)
[11:41] Moon Metty: lol Techwolf
[11:41] Qie Niangao: Philip said something about making content easier to get at, after acquired... could any of that involve making llGiveInventoryList() work across sims? (just ignore, if that's an old discussion)
[11:42] reddot99 Republic: yes, please have that work for agents across sim boundries
[11:42] Andrew Linden: Qie, I'm guessing he was talking about buyng goods in SL
[11:42] Youri Ashton: isnt old, still going on
[11:42] Qie Niangao: right... but so was I, in my cryptic way
[11:42] Andrew Linden: vendors currently have to pack stuff up in boxes, and then you pull the items out of contents
[11:42] Youri Ashton: i kinda wonder the same thing
[11:42] Imaze Rhiano: would be just better if there would be somekind separated packaging, delivery and update method
[11:43] Andrew Linden: so I think he was actually thinking specifically about that problem, but lumping it into a general category of making content just work better
[11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: you'll have to add interest list selection for sim scalability anyway, in due course. I recommend doing it sooner rather than later.
[11:43] Andrew Linden: yup
[11:43] Techwolf Lupindo: this http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6069 can be causing the tar pit issues. Many connections are created and broken for each texture download, note that each single texture require about 5 created and broken connections.
[11:43] Http GET texture not using keep-alive on sim side.
[11:43] Qie Niangao: with llGiveInventoryList, the buyer at least gets a folder of stuff, instead of a box of stuff... but can't do that with netowrked vendors.
[11:44] reddot99 Republic: svc 868
[11:44] Andrew Linden: I'm going to have to leave for an 11:45 meeting
[11:45] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.
[11:45] Qie Niangao: thanks Andrew.
[11:45] Moundsa Mayo: Thank you, Andrew.
[11:45] Chaley May: bye
[11:45] Moon Metty: thank you Andrew
[11:45] Sindra Aquila: thanks andrew, have nice day

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