User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2010 01 06

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[3:04]	Kaluura Boa:	Here he comes...
[3:04]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	We had snow most of yesterday and last night.
[3:04]	Darrius Gothly:	Good morning all.
[3:05]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Sun has only just come out - but everything is white outside.
[3:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	all but meltedhere
[3:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Darr
[3:05]	Gooden Uggla:	at the multi game we always file AR's in 2's, they get fast response
[3:05]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Howdy, Babbage!
[3:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	just a little bit of slush remaining
[3:05]	Gooden Uggla:	hi Darrius
[3:05]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Hey Babbage.
[3:05]	Gooden Uggla:	hiya Babbage
[3:05]	Babbage Linden:	hi everyone
[3:05]	Kaluura Boa:	Hiya
[3:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	hi Babbage :)
[3:05]	Nock Forager:	Hello Babbage
[3:06]	Babbage Linden:	happy new year!
[3:06]	Liandra Ceawlin:	You too. :o
[3:06]	Nock Forager:	happy new year! :)
[3:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Babbage, Happy New Year :-)
[3:06]	Babbage Linden:	i hope you all had a lovely holiday
[3:06]	Babbage Linden:	i did
[3:06]	Babbage Linden:	lots of relaxing and a bit of scripting
[3:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Snowing just north of London, Babbage. How is it in Brighton?
[3:07]	Gooden Uggla:	lots of drinking, food and football :)
[3:07]	Vextra Messing:	Maybe the best Christmas ever, Hi Babbage, thanks for having us.
[3:07]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I did too much relaxing, so nao I am doing lots of scripting. XD
[3:07]	Babbage Linden:	it's snowing here
[3:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Woot!
[3:07]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Snow just passed where I am in Tamworth.
[3:07]	Babbage Linden:	i'm working from home today
[3:07]	Babbage Linden:	not many people in the office
[3:07]	Darrius Gothly:	hehe .. LOVE that 40 foot commute.
[3:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think it's a record, snow both before and after new year.
[3:08]	Babbage Linden:	so, as a new years challenge, see if you can work out what's wrong with this script i was tinkering with over the holiday
[3:08]	Babbage Linden:	http://lsl.pastebin.com/m5becd6a3
[3:08]	Babbage Linden:	it's an implementation of RFC2104 HMAC
[3:08]	Babbage Linden:	that will be useful for working with web sites
[3:08]	Darrius Gothly:	Free Premium for life if we do?
[3:08]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL
[3:08]	Babbage Linden:	it looks like it should be working
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	and the intermediate results look right
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	but it's not producing the same final hex hash as python
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	so something is up
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	and now i'm back at work i don't have much more time to tinker with it
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	if any of you could work out what's wrong i'd be very grateful
[3:10]	Babbage Linden:	it's been an interesting exercise
[3:10]	Babbage Linden:	most of the complication is due to now having proper byte support in LSL
[3:10]	Babbage Linden:	which we'll have in C'
[3:10]	Babbage Linden:	C#, so much of the complication will be gone
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	and because C# is much more widely used, there are many existing HMAC libraries that could just be used
[3:11]	Kaluura Boa:	What about adding some byte support to LSL?
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	including the implementation in the .NET framework
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	kaluura, as I've said lots of times here, I really don't want to extend LSL
[3:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nothing new to be added to LSL, is my guess./
[3:11]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I think y'all ought to freeze LSL once C# goes in, lol.
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment it's broken, but simple
[3:12]	Babbage Linden:	having it broken and complicated would be worse
[3:12]	Darrius Gothly:	Your implementation of C# is going to be that complete? That you can just import 3rd party libraries and use them unmodified?
[3:12]	Kaluura Boa:	I see... Better start to learn C#... waiting for Python to be allowed
[3:12]	Babbage Linden:	we're still planning to support LSL after adding C# support
[3:12]	Babbage Linden:	but we're trying to get out of the language design game
[3:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just out of curiosity, why did arrays never get added to LSL? It's such an obvious one, and so trivial, and so wanted, and so almost completed. Why did it never happen?
[3:13]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Gewd idear, imo. :P
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	it's a good question darrius
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	once I've got the LSL version working I might try using the C# implementations on our prototype
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	as examples
[3:13]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi would like to learn a programming language, having only done very little VB at college.
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	they should work
[3:14]	Darrius Gothly:	Babbage .. I don't want to cause an uproar .. but LSL strikes me as a microprogramming language .. whereas C# is a large system tool. The two applications just seem to be polar opposites.
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	the C# implementation in SL is going to be fairly complete
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	darrius, yes, LSL is a microprogramming language
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	which is fine when you're making doors open or cars move
[3:15]	Babbage Linden:	but not when you want to start interoperating with web sites
[3:15]	Darrius Gothly:	*nods*
[3:15]	Babbage Linden:	or implementing complex visualisations
[3:15]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	SO my titler would be better as C# since it reads XML from last.fm (I guess anyway).
[3:15]	Babbage Linden:	C# scales down to LSL size reasonably well
[3:15]	Darrius Gothly:	But the number of scripted objects that interact with websites is a tiny fraction of the number of doors and cars in SL.
[3:15]	LSL Scientist:	so, will we get SL related functions to C, or will the future llSetColor take 70 lines of script?
[3:15]	Babbage Linden:	and scales up much better
[3:16]	Babbage Linden:	all current library calls will be available
[3:16]	LSL Scientist:	good
[3:16]	Babbage Linden:	so many scripts will be very similar
[3:16]	Babbage Linden:	but more complex scripts that store and manipulate data will be easier
[3:17]	Darrius Gothly:	Do you have examples of C# rewrites of .. say door scripts or lamp scripts .. that show how you hope it will turn out?
[3:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is SL's C# implementation going to be basically just plain C# interfaced to the existing ll*() calls in LSL?
[3:17]	Babbage Linden:	yes, and i'd like to start making them available to show what our plans are
[3:17]	Ovaltine Constantine:	I haz question, and maybe this is totally obvious, but what about events? I mean, as far as I know (and I don't know very far), C# doesn't a run_time_permissions() event...how will I ask people for hugs?
[3:17]	Darrius Gothly would love that too Babbage .. please do.
[3:17]	Babbage Linden:	i need to talk to T about that now I'm back at work
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	ovaltine, we define event handlers as virtual functions in a script interface
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	they can be overridden to handle events
[3:18]	Kaluura Boa:	What about lists in fuction calls? Are they changed into arraws?
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	the default implementations look for registered delegates
[3:18]	Kaluura Boa:	function*
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	so you can also use the C
[3:19]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Groovy.
[3:19]	Babbage Linden:	# event/delegate idiom for handling events
[3:19]	Babbage Linden:	that lets you do "partial state changes" by changing the set of event handlers
[3:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	I assume we'll no longer have to use LSL's lists.
[3:19]	Babbage Linden:	which is great for vendors
[3:19]	Vextra Messing:	Will we be able to send linkmessages between #C and LSL scripts.. if needed?
[3:20]	Babbage Linden:	instead of having to change state to toggle "Pay" you can just set the pay delegate to null
[3:20]	Darrius Gothly:	Sure beats a whole string of if/elseif statements .. that's for sure.
[3:20]	Babbage Linden:	and avoid losing events you'd lose on state change
[3:20]	Darrius Gothly:	I always wondered about that. So events CAN get lost in state changes?
[3:20]	Babbage Linden:	vextra, yes, link messages will work normally
[3:20]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Sorry for going kinda off-topic, but one question on several people's minds whom I've been yacking with is... How's the estimate as to when the fast primparams will hit aditi? :P
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	darrius, yes, the logic is very complicated
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	we have some compatibility fixes lined up for that at the moment
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	to make scripts drop the same events that they did pre mono
[3:21]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL
[3:21]	Darrius Gothly:	Don't ya just LOVE edge testing?
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	it's pretty much all testing :-D
[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	so, kelly and karel have been working on efficient scripts while i've been on holiday
[3:22]	Darrius Gothly:	Slave driver!
[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	the LSL function implementations are mostly complete and unit tested
[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	(they had some holiday too)
[3:22]	Darrius Gothly grins...
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	the work left is checking that interest management can cope with potentially faster updates to objects
[3:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: While you were on holiday, you may have noticed that your design for static limits instead of dynamic ones was torn into shreds on SLdev. :))
[3:23]	Darrius Gothly:	Are there plans in place to back-propogate C# enhancements into LSL .. and keep it growing too? Or will it be cut cold and frozen?
[3:24]	Babbage Linden:	it's not a big problem, as you can currently use 100s of scripts updating prims to generate lots of events
[3:24]	Babbage Linden:	but with no sleeping, it's much easier to generate lots of events
[3:24]	Babbage Linden:	so, we're checking that that won't be a problem
[3:24]	LSL Scientist:	that reminds me, has anyone noticed that you dont hit grey goo fence anymore? the rez seem to just silently fail these days
[3:24]	Liandra Ceawlin:	So is there a possibility that a couple of fast primparams sims could be brought up on aditi for us to bash on while y'all are finishing with the testing and debuggings and things? :P
[3:25]	Babbage Linden:	i read some of the SLDev swirl, i'll check some more of it our
[3:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: how do you feel to be designing in yet another non-scalability into SL? https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2009-December/015956.html
[3:25]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for the link morgaine, that will save me sorting through
[3:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's very bad for LL's future, but your choice.
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	i'll let you know my thoughts once i've read it morgaine
[3:26]	Ciaran Laval:	Is there a timeline for the C# implementation?
[3:26]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[3:26]	Qie Niangao:	I was puzzled by that post, actually. It wasn't at all clear to me that today's limits have to be tomorrow's limits.
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	and i assure you i have no bad intentions
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	qie, they won't be
[3:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's assumed, Babbage, haha :-)
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	limits will go up as hardware becomes available
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	but, we still need limits that are appropriate to the hardware
[3:27]	Qie Niangao:	coolness.
[3:27]	Darrius Gothly:	Where can we find out about LL's plans for hardware upgrades?
[3:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Limits will only go up when all machinery has been upgraded, otherwise it won't be a static limit.
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	but to make the common areas more predictable
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	not for the majority, who work hard to make sure their sims run well
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	morgaine, yes, but we have plans for upgrading all machinery
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	this has been discussed, don't worry
[3:28]	Vextra Messing:	Will we have more memory, better programing structures for SL, etc with C#? i.e. what are the other advantages aside from Web connectivity?
[3:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: but that's not scalable. What about when you have a million machines?
[3:28]	Darrius Gothly:	Is there some sort of timeline when .. say RAM will be upped or CPU speed minimums raised?
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	it's not a problem having different limits for scripts on land in different machines
[3:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	The upgrades to 999,999 will all be wasted, until the day you upgrade the millionth box and can raise the limits. Static limits are so utterly bad in that.
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	the problem comes when you want to be able to TP between sims with different resources and still have your attachments work
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	as i said, i'll read the post
[3:31]	Darrius Gothly:	What is the main motivator now for imposing limits .. rather than investing in cutting edge hardware across the entire population of sims?
[3:31]	Babbage Linden:	vextra, the big advatages are things like arrays, objects, user defined types, exceptions, enumerations, value types, pass by reference and more basic types
[3:31]	Ciaran Laval:	Oh I so want to see arrays
[3:32]	Darrius Gothly seconds that!
[3:32]	Vextra Messing:	Oh they would be great.
[3:32]	Qie Niangao:	and a case statement
[3:32]	Darrius Gothly:	*nods*
[3:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Darrius: as a system grows, a smaller and smaller proportion of it will ever be "cutting edge", for any roughly fixed upgrade rate.
[3:32]	Babbage Linden:	for lots of algorithmic tasks like encryption or path finding being able to operate on byte arrays is a big benefit
[3:33]	Vextra Messing:	Will you make your own C# functions specific to SL, for dealing with a 3D environment?
[3:33]	Darrius Gothly:	Agreed Morgaine. But it seems the population of machines is static and has been for awhile, yet the demands are still growing at the same rate or faster than technology.
[3:33]	Babbage Linden:	we've also made some progress on the mono sim freezes on rez over christmas
[3:33]	Qie Niangao:	yay to that
[3:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Woohoo!
[3:33]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Nice.
[3:34]	LSL Scientist:	.. and after LL fix the tier system, the number of people who will buy land/more land will raise a lot
[3:34]	Babbage Linden:	we got some callgrind data to the mono developers and zoltan has a theory that the problem is loading the same assembly from bytes multiple times
[3:34]	Babbage Linden:	which causes mono to set up the second assembly and then unload it once it's discovered to be a duplicate
[3:34]	Darrius Gothly:	Oops!
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	which takes a long time
[3:35]	Qie Niangao:	(ooo... that may make Mono scripts less clunky to pass over sim borders, too)
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	but, mono also keeps track of loaded assemblies
[3:35]	Darrius Gothly:	"hurry up and get that done .. so I can throw it away." LOL
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	so i'm adding some more calls to the run time to ask if the assembly has been loaded befre i try to load it
[3:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	The tier system will have to disappear anyway, otherwise SL will becoime uncompatitive with other grids that decouple sim resource costs from land acreage.
[3:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Acreage is only a virtual concept after all.
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	the trick is that you need to know information from the assembly before you can ask mono if it's loaded
[3:36]	Darrius Gothly:	So you almost have to pre-load it yourself?
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	so i'm trying to extract that information without having to load the entire assembly
[3:36]	Darrius Gothly:	gaww .. that thucks.
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	exactly
[3:37]	Babbage Linden:	anyway, we have a theory and i'm currently testing it, which is good news
[3:37]	Darrius Gothly:	Can't you preload it .. then hand that info TO Mono .. so it won't have to repeat your effort?
[3:37]	Babbage Linden:	i hope to have some results for you next week
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	well mono is open source, so i may be able to build the check in to mono at the appropriate point
[3:38]	Darrius Gothly:	It would seem they need to decouple the two processes .. and allow you to run them independently.
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	we'll see
[3:38]	Gooden Uggla:	i think i speak for a lot of people, adding 10 seconds to a TP is worth not having the sim freezes
[3:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	That would be cool Babbage.
[3:38]	Xugu Madison:	(sorry I'm late, RL is always fun)
[3:39]	Darrius Gothly:	(Xugu buys the donuts this time)
[3:39]	Darrius Gothly:	I guess I'm a bit unclear then Babbage. You speak of the Mono team .. but if it's open source, where is that team?
[3:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gooden: bad idea. The solution is to extend the load time outside the TP thread, not inline with it. Adding time to the TP would be a disaster for user experience.
[3:39]	Gooden Uggla looks down at his mai tai - "no donuts for me"
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	i'm hoping to go to FOSDEM next month, so I will meet up with a lot of mono contributors there
[3:40]	Gooden Uggla:	i was thinking if he needs a small time to check, i seriously doubt people would mind
[3:40]	Darrius Gothly:	Gotcha .. more a community than a "team" ... in the traditional sense.
[3:40]	Xugu Madison:	Darrius, I think Mono team means the "core" developers, although I've also seen Babbage on the mailing lists...
[3:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: your videos of your talks are much appreciated :-) Hugely informative!
[3:41]	Gooden Uggla:	i have 3 high traffic sims, i'd love to not have freezes at events
[3:42]	Ardy Lay:	oops
[3:42]	Ardy Lay:	We broke him.
[3:42]	Darrius Gothly:	His attachments exceeded Sim limits. LOL
[3:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Notice that putting the rezzing into a parallel thread would have the bonus effect of not only stopping the freezes, but SPEEDING UP TP, which is wonderful :-)
[3:42]	Gooden Uggla loves irony when he's drinking
[3:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	Irony Bru?
[3:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[3:43]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I wanna know when I can tell the People that Pay For My Groceries when I can start working on their improvements on Aditi, with the fast primparams. :x
[3:43]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	That was possibly the first time I've seen a Linden crash at an office hour.
[3:43]	Questar Utu:	Heh.
[3:43]	Gooden Uggla:	i've seen it a few times, i never get tired of it :)
[3:43]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	xP
[3:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero was always crashing at his OHs, some times repeatedly on a given day.
[3:44]	Darrius Gothly:	That'll teach him to check Twitter during an office hour.
[3:44]	Gooden Uggla:	you can always tell when one works from home
[3:44]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	The only person I'd expect to crash often is Merov from toying with Snowglobe. :P
[3:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Remember they have to use Linden viewers, so don't have the benefit of third-party stability improvements.
[3:44]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL @ Morgaine .. Touche!
[3:44]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Lol morg.
[3:44]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	xP
[3:45]	Liandra Ceawlin:	He musta crashed hard...
[3:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hmmm, that sounded cattier than I intended. But it's probably true, lol.
[3:45]	Darrius Gothly:	Now would be a good time for those donuts Xugu .. or more Mai Tai's.
[3:45]	Kaluura Boa:	10 minutes of penalty for having tried twice to log in too quickly...
[3:45]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Either crashed or the snow has caused something. :/
[3:45]	Liandra Ceawlin:	So have any of you heard any dates about fast primparams on aditi? >_>
[3:46]	Morgaine Dinova sticks out a hand and puts on an "I need a donut" expression.
[3:46]	Xugu Madison:	Anyone want to give me a quick recap?
[3:46]	Kaluura Boa:	THis year...
[3:46]	Gooden Uggla:	i still use a forced 1.23.4 RC mac viewer, i never crash :)
[3:46]	Gooden Uggla:	]last of the decent viewers
[3:46]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Cats can't have donuts! :O You'll mage a booboo on the carpet. :<
[3:46]	Liandra Ceawlin:	*make
[3:46]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	I rarely crash even on the Linden viewers.
[3:46]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL
[3:46]	Kaluura Boa:	I have 1.24.4... Not a single crash
[3:47]	Vextra Messing:	Where did Babbage go? I didn't see a TARDIS come and go.
[3:47]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	But since Open Metaverse Viewer now has a working Ubuntu repository including dependency check, I use that now.
[3:47]	LSL Scientist:	Liandra, ask him when he come back, i want to know too. And i believe they should arrive soon, after all it is mainly just copy paste + delete of useless limits
[3:47]	Gooden Uggla:	mucta been a machine lockup
[3:47]	Qie Niangao:	(oops. RL strikes again. have fun all.)
[3:47]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I guess the deadites pulled him into the cellar. :<
[3:47]	Darrius Gothly:	tc Qie
[3:47]	Ovaltine Constantine:	He's back
[3:47]	Ovaltine Constantine:	Teehee
[3:47]	Gooden Uggla:	adios qie
[3:48]	Liandra Ceawlin SHOUT: Wb Babbage!
[3:48]	Gooden Uggla:	wb babbage
[3:48]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Welcome back!
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	hello
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	crashed
[3:48]	Gooden Uggla:	we saw :)
[3:48]	Xugu Madison:	we guessed :)
[3:48]	Darrius Gothly:	wb
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	that hasn't happened for a while
[3:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Imprudence is now by far the most stable viewer on 32-bit Linux. Doesn't crash at all for me, not even on OSgrid. Very nice experience.
[3:48]	Darrius Gothly:	Tell those kids to stop playing games on your work computer .. at home.
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	but then i haven't done an office hours from home for a long time
[3:48]	Gooden Uggla:	morgainie is the mac versiion stable?
[3:49]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi uses 32-bit Linux so may take a look into that viewer.
[3:49]	Liandra Ceawlin:	So, I am sorry for being a nag, but I have some pitchforks pointed at me, lol. Can you clue me in on something I can tell them with regard to fast primparams on aditi ETA?
[3:49]	Gooden Uggla:	i been meaning to try it
[3:49]	Babbage Linden:	i'm glad you're looking forward to it
[3:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gooden: I think the Mac version lags the others. Jacek isn't really a Mac developer, she just bought a Mac to be able to build Imprudence.
[3:49]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment I would expect it to make aditi after 1.36 is out
[3:50]	Gooden Uggla:	damn... thanks :(
[3:50]	LSL Scientist:	yay
[3:50]	Liandra Ceawlin:	That'd be midmonth?
[3:50]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Feb-ish?
[3:50]	Xugu Madison:	how are memory usage measurement tools coming?
[3:50]	Babbage Linden:	mostly because we won't get much QA time before then
[3:50]	Gooden Uggla:	i'm forever looking for *someone* to pick yp a decent mac viewer that doesn'ty lag out everyone else
[3:50]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Nods, thanks.
[3:50]	Babbage Linden:	the UI for script usage is nearly done
[3:50]	Babbage Linden:	and should be in the next viewer release
[3:50]	Kaluura Boa:	Hoooo! Does it mean we'll soon have a new RC to play with new UI?
[3:51]	Kaluura Boa:	I got my answer...
[3:51]	Babbage Linden:	i'm not sure, i'm not involved in the viewer release process much
[3:51]	Babbage Linden:	1.36 is planned for early feb at the moment
[3:51]	Babbage Linden:	so efficient scripts should be on aditi soon after that
[3:51]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Groovy. Thankya.
[3:51]	Kaluura Boa:	I really hope we won't have to wait for that not-so-secret Viewer 2.0
[3:52]	Babbage Linden:	can you hurl me that url again please morgaine, i lost it when i crashed
[3:52]	Xugu Madison:	Also, can I wave https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4839 (more than 12 buttons in llDialog() ) at you please :)
[3:52]	Gooden Uggla:	the viewer people practice voodoo, not QA... who knows?
[3:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Probably not before mid-year, as there were so many problems reported in Alexa's leaked email.
[3:53]	Gooden Uggla:	kaluura a workable 2.0 viwer may be the "viewer 2011 project"...
[3:53]	Kaluura Boa:	Bleh...
[3:53]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I wanna see what the Naali people come up with. <3
[3:54]	Darrius Gothly:	Any other exciting projects on the books Babbage?
[3:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well getting rid of the coupling of rendering and networking code was a much needed refactoring. What worries me is that after all this horrid hiatus because of Viewer2.0 secrecy, that essential step is not actually taken.
[3:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	But if it is, then it was worth the wait.
[3:55]	Babbage Linden:	i've been involved a bit in the server side of mesh, which is pretty exciting
[3:55]	Babbage Linden:	lots of good stuff coming this year
[3:55]	Liandra Ceawlin:	\o/
[3:55]	Darrius Gothly:	Mesh sure has a lotta folks polarized.
[3:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	\o/
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	i'm looking forward to seeing what you all build with it
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	ok, we only have a couple of minutes left
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	any last thoughts or questions?
[3:56]	Darrius Gothly:	Just one .. what did you get that was FUN for Christmas?
[3:56]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL
[3:56]	LSL Scientist:	stuff like fast llSetPP is exiting, i wonder if there is some way to know when LL has fixed known exploits for making no-mod scripts open source, cause im not in the mood for sending any product updates or new products before i know that my months and months of work is not open sourced in a day
[3:56]	Ciaran Laval:	When will people be able to start looking at C#?
[3:57]	Vextra Messing:	will mesh make sculpties obsolete?
[3:57]	Babbage Linden:	heh, i got a set of vdrums for the kids, which i admit i've been having fun playing
[3:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: hahaha
[3:57]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL Dads! (a title I proudly abuse .. heheh)
[3:57]	Gooden Uggla:	those things are awesome, huh?
[3:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I have a Korg padKONTROL --- it's huge fun bashing away sounds on the pads :-)))
[3:58]	Babbage Linden:	LSL scientist, i worked on a fix for a permissions exploit in september
[3:58]	Babbage Linden:	that caused the last viewer update
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	i don't know of any other permissions exploits that currently exist
[3:59]	LSL Scientist:	alright, good to know, but cause im paranaid, ill confirm that from a haxor
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	i wanted a khaos pad for a long time, then turned my iphone in to one with mrmr
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	that's a lot of fun
[3:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[4:00]	LSL Scientist:	2 weeks ago the haxor said there is 3 different methods
[4:00]	Darrius Gothly:	Do you work with a "Black Ops" team Babbage .. folks that live in the hacker world but feed info to your development group?
[4:00]	Babbage Linden:	well, i'd love to see them filed as SEC issues
[4:00]	Gooden Uggla:	yes darrius... his name is "rodney"
[4:00]	Darrius Gothly:	LOL
[4:01]	Gooden Uggla ducks
[4:01]	Babbage Linden:	i don't but there are others at linden who are pretty well connected in that community
[4:01]	Darrius Gothly:	Good.
[4:01]	Babbage Linden:	i will talk to them about known permissions exploits
[4:01]	Babbage Linden:	those are definitely our top priority
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	ok, time's up, i should go work on the mono sim freeze theory
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[4:02]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Thanks for you time, Babbage! ^_^
[4:02]	Gooden Uggla:	yes please
[4:02]	Gooden Uggla:	thanks babbage
[4:02]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	See you later, babbage.
[4:02]	Darrius Gothly:	Best of luck on that Babbage. And Happy New Year again.
[4:02]	Darrius Gothly:	Thank you.
[4:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Babbage, have fun being snowed in :-))))
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	morgaine, do you have the sldev link please?
[4:02]	Becky Pippen:	thanks Babbage!
[4:02]	Gooden Uggla:	please help fix that, we would like to have events like we used to :)
[4:03]	Ardy Lay:	Babbage: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2009-December/015956.html
[4:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: this one? https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2009-December/015956.html
[4:03]	Babbage Linden:	yes, thanks
[4:03]	Babbage Linden:	will read
[4:03]	Babbage Linden:	bye!
[4:03]	Vextra Messing:	thanks for having us, Babbage.
[4:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye :)