User:Rob Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 15

[15:01]	Stevex Janus:	Hi rob
[15:01]	Rob Linden:	hi
[15:01]	Dale Glass:	hiya :-)
[15:01]	Rob Linden gets used to new interface for text chat
[15:02]	Dale Glass:	what new interface?
[15:02]	Stevex Janus:	what new interface :-
[15:02]	Rob Linden:	oh, this might only be in the First Look viewer
[15:03]	Rob Linden:	the way for dealing with chat history is a little different
[15:04]	Stevex Janus:	I'm still not clearn on the difference between First look and the source releases.
[15:05]	Ruud Lathrop:	wow nice office
[15:05]	tessa Amos:	:)
[15:05]	Rob Linden:	Stevex: it varies
[15:06]	Rob Linden:	there are generally three types of binary drops we do, which we generally do source releases for
[15:06]	Rob Linden:	1. Main grid releases
[15:07]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Machine is in use by tessa Amos
[15:07]	Rob Linden:	2. First Look (which is a pre-release viewer against the main grid)
[15:07]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Here's your can of Ubuntu flavored Linux soda, enjoy!
[15:07]	Rob Linden:	3. Beta (which is pre-release viewer against pre-release grid)
[15:07]	Rob Linden:	We often publish source whenever we publish a binary
[15:07]	Ruud Lathrop:	So how is unbuntu baby, tast good?
[15:07]	tessa Amos:	lolol
[15:08]	Stevex Janus:	Ok I see
[15:08]	tessa Amos:	kinda tastes like diet pepsi :P
[15:08]	Ruud Lathrop:	Hmmm dont like pepsi
[15:08]	Rob Linden:	we're making an exception this go around, because there's still a few things that we need to tease out of the current First Look that we don't have the right to release in source form
[15:08]	Stevex Janus:	so the stuff that I'm compiling is for the main line.
[15:08]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Here's your can of Red Hat Fedora flavored Linux soda, enjoy!
[15:08]	Rob Linden:	Stevex: probably. 1.17.0.12?
[15:08]	Stevex Janus:	yea.
[15:08]	Rob Linden:	yup, that's the main release
[15:09]	Stevex Janus:	I've been trying to collect profileing info on the client
[15:09]	Stevex Janus:	Lots of time spent in the skycalc
[15:10]	Rob Linden:	Dale, you should take a look at the First Look release, actually. The new "near me" tab is sorta like your a/v scanner, though not really
[15:10]	Dale Glass:	hmm, will do
[15:10]	Rob Linden:	your stuff is a lot more specialized
[15:11]	Dale Glass:	btw, any chance you could do source releases a bit faster? The last SVN release took quite a while after the grid came back up
[15:11]	Rob Linden:	the tarball came out pretty quickly, but I wasn't able to get to teh svn release until later
[15:11]	Rob Linden:	I'm still doing that stuff personally, and it's not fully automated yet
[15:12]	Dale Glass:	yeah, I'm moving towards SVN. Used to use tarballs, but that's quite a pain to manage. Now I'm moving over to svk
[15:13]	Dale Glass:	hiya :-)
[15:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yo
[15:13]	Stevex Janus:	hello
[15:13]	Joshua Linden:	Oops, didn't mean to drop in so dramatically.
[15:13]	Rob Linden:	hi folks
[15:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	was very dramatic I'm sue
[15:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	*sure
[15:13]	Rob Linden:	I was just putting out word on the #opensl channel that this was going on
[15:13]	Basic Chair:	Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down
[15:14]	Rob Linden:	before I get done typing, three people show up, including a Linden :)
[15:14]	Basic Chair:	Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down
[15:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hey Joshua, a new Linden!
[15:14]	Rob Linden:	actually, Joshua predates me (by a couple of weeks, I think)
[15:14]	Wyn Galbraith notes she collects Linden bears *winkwink*
[15:14]	Joshua Linden:	I'm just here to listen, don't mind me.
[15:15]	Wyn Galbraith:	I love the pirate.
[15:15]	Joshua Linden:	Yeah, my rez day is coming up in a week or so.
[15:15]	Stevex Janus:	Rob, would it be possible to include a gcc4.1.1 libiary for the KDU stuff?
[15:15]	Wyn Galbraith:	Is that like a birthday?
[15:16]	Rob Linden:	I'm not sure. We might be able to do a one-off build. which distros have gcc4.1.1 these days?
[15:16]	Stevex Janus:	FC6
[15:17]	Gigs Taggart:	hi
[15:17]	Stevex Janus:	I don't know about others.
[15:17]	Rob Linden:	I guess Red Hat always likes to stay on the bleeding edge w/compilers
[15:17]	Gigs Taggart:	heh not always, they used that broken 2.96 for ages
[15:17]	Dale Glass:	gentoo has gcc4 too
[15:18]	Rob Linden:	I can't recall what we compile with by default.
[15:18]	Dale Glass:	although gentoo is flexible on that regard
[15:18]	Stevex Janus:	I was going to compare the diff between the gcc3.x and gcc4.x on the client.
[15:18]	Gigs Taggart:	3 is default
[15:18]	Gigs Taggart:	4 needs minor patches
[15:18]	Dale Glass:	SConstruct specifies 3.4
[15:18]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:18]	Rob Linden:	ah...ok
[15:19]	Stevex Janus:	I have a patch to alllow you to set gcc version. I will submit that to jira
[15:19]	Rob Linden:	oh, cool
[15:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	mac ox x 4+ looks like it comes with Gcc4.x
[15:19]	Rob Linden:	I take it gcc 4 mucks with the abi again?
[15:19]	Dale Glass:	that is good :-) I'll vote on that
[15:19]	Stevex Janus:	Yea, there was a change in 4.1
[15:20]	Gigs Taggart:	I think you all should consdier doing 4 for your build, it's very wide spread now
[15:20]	Rob Linden:	oh...so 4.0 and 4.1 have different abi?
[15:20]	Stevex Janus:	I did but but it is dog slooooowwww
[15:20]	Gigs Taggart:	slow eh... did they change the optimization that much?
[15:21]	Stevex Janus:	I would have to go back ver the gccmailing list but I do recall there was a C++ ABI change
[15:21]	Gigs Taggart:	4 should have more autovectorization I would think
[15:21]	Gigs Taggart:	don't know if that's made it out of beta
[15:21]	Stevex Janus:	The client is slow because when using gcc4 the KDU libs don't link in. I thinhk
[15:22]	Gigs Taggart:	ah yeah
[15:22]	Rob Linden:	Stevex: could you file a request in jira for gcc 4.x/Linux KDU build?
[15:22]	Rob Linden:	(or someone)
[15:22]	Stevex Janus:	Ok
[15:22]	Rob Linden:	(if it isn't already filed)
[15:22]	Dale Glass coughs
[15:22]	Dale Glass:	damn, they set oil on fire on the kitchen or something O.o
[15:22]	Gigs Taggart:	maybe you'll get steaks for dinner :)
[15:23]	Gigs Taggart:	Rob is there an agenda for this meeting?
[15:23]	Rob Linden:	sadly, not a predetermined one
[15:23]	Gigs Taggart:	heh, that's not sad really :)
[15:23]	Gigs Taggart:	I want to talk about triage policy and Dzonates
[15:23]	Rob Linden:	sure...go for it
[15:23]	Rob Linden:	I was just about to ask
[15:23]	Gigs Taggart:	I don't understand why he has tabled all the bugs on the agenda because of "lack of votes"
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart:	is there some new system I don't know about?
[15:24]	Stevex Janus:	Rob, no KDU issues. so will make one
[15:24]	Rob Linden:	no...he's sorta acting on his own, though using votes as a filter isn't an altogether bad idea
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart:	I think it is, when there's a clear repro, it's something that should be fixed, but it's not somethign that the user on the street would understand or care about
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	I thought the whole point of triage was to get that sort of thing looked at, but if we only look at votes those will never get hit
[15:26]	Rob Linden:	I wouldn't use that as the be-all, end-all metric, but anything that meets your description should be able to muster a couple of votes
[15:27]	Rob Linden:	I'd want to set the bar pretty low on tabling by lack of votes; but >1 isn't too much to ask. what is the bar that Dz is using?
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	I kinda liked just skimming high voted bugs and putting them in each triage
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	and then going sequentially otherwise
[15:28]	Fremont Cunningham:	SL is so full of 'gaming', using votes that can be stuffed is risky.
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	I guess the fundamental question is "what is the goal of triage?"
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	is the goal "resolving bogus issues to keep the noise down"
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	or "finding worthy issues"
[15:28]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I['ve been workign forever to get my jira suggestion votes stuffed. It aint as easy as you think
[15:29]	Rob Linden:	"finding worthy issues"
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	unless people are creating sock-puppets and voting
[15:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	most peole won't vote, regardless. They may complain about a bug, but they don't vote to fix it
[15:30]	Rob Linden:	the "finding worthy issues" is a process that's really valuable to have multiple Lindens involved in, especially others have already engaged in the "reduce noise" exercise
[15:30]	Dale Glass:	I vote, sometimes
[15:30]	Gigs Taggart:	Well, he's tabled patches too.
[15:30]	Gigs Taggart:	I think patch should automatically be worth a linden look.
[15:30]	Rob Linden:	I'll import a bug that I see as having a clear repro and very plausible
[15:31]	Rob Linden:	Gigs: agreed on patches
[15:31]	Rob Linden:	if there are any patches that have been tabled....feel free to untable
[15:31]	Gigs Taggart:	ok
[15:31]	Gigs Taggart:	we are verging on edit war mode here though Rob :)
[15:32]	Stevex Janus:	I think that we (as programmers) are lazy and don't look at other people's issues. Let alone vote.
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart:	I untabled everything and he reverted that edit
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart:	I don't understand his intent anyway, there's nothing on the agenda that isn't tabled right now
[15:32]	Rob Linden:	did everything have patches attached?
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart:	no, but the entire agenda is tabled, so I don't understand
[15:32]	Rob Linden looks
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	just going to sit around monday and shoot the breeze? :)
[15:33]	Rob Linden:	no....we'll go through the "tabled" stuff....so that may be mislabeled
[15:33]	Stevex Janus:	Or we can just vote.
[15:33]	Rob Linden:	it may make sense to treat the two sections as different priority levels
[15:34]	Rob Linden:	Stevex, that works too
[15:34]	Rob Linden:	here's what I'm hoping for
[15:34]	Stevex Janus:	Is there a way to speed up the machine running jira? Its slow too.
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart:	Dzonates has put in a lot of effort and I think he's mostly doing a good job, but I keep running into his stubborn streak :)
[15:34]	Rob Linden:	I know there's more that we should be importing. at first, I was importing a lot, and I'd get a lot of issues closed out
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	may be a security issue. The rest of the forum site is reasonably fast
[15:35]	Rob Linden:	so, we started doing triages....and I was finding that me setting the order wasn't working so well
[15:35]	Rob Linden:	I've generally felt the community constructed agendas have been much more productive to walk through
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah I just think we need to probably come up with some guidelines now so there is less confusion like this
[15:36]	Rob Linden:	sure....suggestions?
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	well we can start with patches being always considered top priority
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	that seems pretty uncontroversial
[15:36]	Rob Linden:	I'd like to be respectful of everyone's time, not just Linden's
[15:36]	Rob Linden:	yup
[15:36]	Stevex Janus:	We could setup teams to lok at jira
[15:37]	Gigs Taggart:	I think considering the reliability of people on SL, including myself, a loose collaboration is best Stevex :)
[15:37]	Stevex Janus:	:-)
[15:37]	Gigs Taggart:	but some guidelines wouldn't hurt I'd say
[15:37]	Rob Linden:	sure
[15:37]	Gigs Taggart:	maybe you could put these on the main triage page rob
[15:38]	Stevex Janus:	Rob, thanks for creating the Source code catagory.
[15:38]	Gigs Taggart:	Another one could be unresolved unimported bugs with over 10 votes get looked at
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	10 votes is a LOT
[15:38]	Rob Linden:	hmmm.....I'm happy to referee the construction of guidelines, but I don't want to be the one to construct the guidelines, because we've already determined I suck at putting the list together
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	it is, but big issues get 10 votes quickly
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	this is just the "high priority" category
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, right
[15:39]	Rob Linden:	anyone object to my posting these minutes?
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	go ahead
[15:39]	Stevex Janus:	nope
[15:39]	Dale Glass:	no
[15:40]	Rob Linden:	k...let's have this conversation, I'll post the minutes, and then I'll look for a volunteer to acutally construct guidelines consistant with these minutes
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	k
[15:41]	Rob Linden:	if an issue has >10 votes, and hasn't been imported, we should talk about it, no question
[15:41]	Rob Linden:	(assuming, of course, that my belief abou tthere being <10 issues week that clear that bar stands true)
[15:41]	Gigs Taggart:	I think we should give attention to bugs with solid repros, regardless of votes... something like a rare crash can fall into that, but if the repro is 100% then it's pretty easy to fix.
[15:42]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah there's usually only 2 or 3 high voted unimported issues
[15:43]	Rob Linden:	I also think your "solid repro" criteria is a good one, with the caveat that I'm wondering how that gets determined in an edit-war proof way
[15:43]	Gigs Taggart:	usually the repro itself isn't controversial, but the severity might be
[15:43]	Gigs Taggart:	by saying "solid repro=triage" then that takes the controversy over severity off :)
[15:44]	Rob Linden:	I'm willing to give that a shot
[15:44]	Rob Linden:	actually....here's how I'd really like to see thigns go
[15:45]	Rob Linden:	there are a number of people I generally trust to just tell me "yes, this is obvious". all of the regulars that are here right now qualify
[15:46]	Stevex Janus:	Does it count if you are sleeping? : -)
[15:46]	Rob Linden:	if there's a bunch of issues I can blast through without really having to have a triage discussion, I'd be happy to do that
[15:46]	Gigs Taggart:	well you could take that to an extreme, and FICify some people to be able to set a special triage Jira flag
[15:46]	Gigs Taggart:	but that may cause backlash :)
[15:47]	Rob Linden:	I wish I knew how to set permissions on a per field basis
[15:47]	Gigs Taggart:	hmmm
[15:47]	Gigs Taggart:	it probably can be done I've been told Jira has insane permissions detail :)
[15:47]	Rob Linden:	I've been told that too, but I've done a cursory look for this, and can't find it
[15:48]	Rob Linden:	I haven't done enough investigation to definitively say it can't be done
[15:48]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:48]	Gigs Taggart:	even if it was a public flag, edit-wars aside, it would be easier than the wiki agenda probably
[15:48]	Rob Linden:	anyway, what Dz did on the wiki in the lines below the issues is insanely helpful
[15:49]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah he's doing some good work
[15:49]	Gigs Taggart:	he resolved about 10 of the issues too
[15:49]	Rob Linden:	to the extent that we can do an asynchronous "triage" on the wiki, we should try to do it
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	on that subject, I've got a regor suggestion for jira itself
[15:50]	Rob Linden:	...so that the real-time version is much more about going through issues that really need a discussion to make a determination
[15:50]	Rob Linden:	Saijanai....go ahead
[15:51]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's a huge number of scripting issues scattered in three categories: VWR, SVC and MISC. About 150-200. It's as many as any of the other major categories if you eliminate scripting from them
[15:51]	Gigs Taggart:	ohhh yeah, I agree with LSL category :)
[15:51]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'd like to see SCRIPT be a top-level category, at least as far as *reporting* bug-fix/suggestions go
[15:51]	Fremont Cunningham:	LSL - me 3
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there could be a VWR sub-category for things that the viewer team sholud look at
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the rest should be organized along the lines as the bsic categories as the LSLwiki
[15:52]	Rob Linden:	Hmmm
[15:53]	Rob Linden:	that seems like it's clearly SVC to me
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I found about 5-10 duplicates in each of the cats
[15:53]	Gigs Taggart:	it's not Rob, the compiler is client side
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its not about which category it belongs in from theLinden side. Its about how they user reports bugs.
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and suggestions
[15:54]	Fremont Cunningham:	Indeed!
[15:54]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah it would make it easier to find dups too
[15:54]	Fremont Cunningham:	As a user with a LSL bug, I look at the current Jira system.. and give up.
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yep. I put it in MISC than discovered SVC then discovered almost as many LSL in MISC anyway
[15:55]	Rob Linden:	Saijanai: I'll think about it. I agree that our current taxonomy isn't perfect, but I'm really hesitant to make big changes to it without really giving it a think-through
[15:55]	Rob Linden:	what I'd like to do is this...
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I understand. But its a real headache
[15:56]	Wyn Galbraith shows signs of life.
[15:56]	Rob Linden:	could you file a "feature request" under WEB/jira.secondlife.com, with this request? Ideally, it'd be a link to a detailed writeup on the wiki
[15:57]	Rob Linden:	...but even a basic outline of the idea on JIRA is fine
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-153
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn is faster than light
[15:57]	Rob Linden:	heh, cool :)
[15:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	And I haven't been evangelizing this one, so those 4 votes are pretty much "real"
[15:58]	Rob Linden:	I'm also looking for what the component names of the new LSL project would be
[15:58]	Rob Linden:	(I believe it's "project" rather than category in JIRA nomenclature)
[15:59]	Stevex Janus:	Is there a notify option in jira?
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's what holds peole up. As a project, it belongs mostly in SVC, but as a report category?
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if you took it out of svc, SVC would be roughly 1/2 smaller
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	VWR would have 30 less
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I can't even think about MISC
[16:00]	Celierra Darling waves
[16:00]	Rob Linden:	Stevex: yes, there is, but it's not enabled right now....long story, will be fixed soon with any luck, but can't make promises
[16:00]	Stevex Janus:	ok
[16:01]	Stevex Janus:	If you are going to change things around then you might want to tell people about their issues mving around :-)
[16:01]	Rob Linden:	yeah, I know
[16:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's the big drawback
[16:01]	Gigs Taggart:	LSL components could be math, functions, syntax, prim properties, compiler, interpreter
[16:01]	Rob Linden:	well, the good enws is that redirects are automatic
[16:02]	Fremont Cunningham adds support anc comment to '153
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	thanks
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'll be putting up a suggestion box sign in the sandboxes for my various jira thigns, BTW.
[16:02]	Rob Linden:	at any rate,t here's a lot of work designing a new hierarchy, and it's work that I personally don't have the time to do. if there's a proposal suitable for execution by a trained monkey, then it will be more likely to happen
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	It catches people's attention becasue it is unique, afaik
[16:03]	Rob Linden:	since, while I'm not as well-trained as a trained monkey, I'm almost as good at improvising
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	could an infinite number of Rob LIndens do the same as the monkeies?
[16:04]	Ash Qin:	Heh
[16:04]	Rob Linden:	it'd be close
[16:04]	Stevex Janus:	The main limitation is the single keyboard they would have to use.
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	extreme programing writ large...
[16:04]	Celierra Darling:	They'd have to construct an infinite number of randomly forest-dwelling cubicles first.
[16:05]	Rob Linden:	ok....I should wrap up now. anything quick before I go?
[16:05]	Stevex Janus:	nope.
[16:05]	Stevex Janus:	thanks for having the meeting.
[16:05]	Wyn Galbraith shivers, forest dwelling cubicles.
[16:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	noe and thanks for listening.BTW, would voice work i this meeting?
[16:05]	Ash Qin:	Indeed, spasiba :)
[16:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	practically speaking
[16:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Can't log voice. ;)
[16:05]	Gigs Taggart:	can't use voice in linux
[16:06]	Rob Linden:	I don't think this region is voice-enabled yet
[16:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	was just wondering if this was a voice-useful meeting, not whether or not voice works here yet
[16:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	It will make it hard to post a log, think about it, you would have to repeat every question and answer in chat.
[16:06]	Ash Qin doesn't think voice is good for meetings such as these.
[16:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Kinda spoils the usage of voice.
[16:06]	Gigs Taggart:	I'm not rebooting and installing SL in windows just for this meeting :)
[16:07]	Stevex Janus:	me neither.
[16:07]	Ash Qin:	The moment you use voice, everyone has to use voice
[16:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	taking notes
[16:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	No one wants to hear me.
[16:07]	Fremont Cunningham:	Voice meetings need a minutes taker, proposals, voting and so-forth. Real records just like RL
[16:07]	Rob Linden:	we'd need a notetaker. I'd acutally like to try the occasional voice meeting, but i'd also rather wait until we have Linux support at least
[16:08]	Stevex Janus:	Is there a 'record' option? for voice?
[16:08]	Dale Glass:	Rob, is there source for the voice stuff?
[16:08]	Ash Qin:	Not that I can see
[16:08]	Rob Linden:	we have voice meetings all of the time for Linden business, and it works remarkably well
[16:08]	Fremont Cunningham:	Run GoldWave
[16:08]	Dale Glass:	It probably should just be recorded and uploaded somewhere. Then somebody can transcribe it
[16:08]	Rob Linden:	Dale, no, not yet. we're still getting our act together on that front
[16:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but lindens know each other, mostly, right?
[16:08]	Celierra Darling:	Would anyone actually volunteer to transcribe everything?
[16:09]	Rob Linden:	I'd want realtime notes.
[16:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	would be hard to track who said what, otherwise
[16:09]	Stevex Janus:	It would have to be timestapmed .
[16:09]	Ash Qin:	Here let me try..
[16:09]	Fremont Cunningham:	You need a secretary. Been there, done that. Not again :)
[16:09]	Celierra Darling wishes voice was a STT->TTS systm :/
[16:09]	Dale Glass:	isn't there metadata regarding who is the voice coming from?
[16:09]	Rob Linden:	one thing I've seen work really well in the past was w3c meetings, where we'd be meeting, but a realtime voice minutes were taken via irc
[16:09]	Ash Qin:	Here goes... Double the killer delete select all
[16:10]	Dale Glass:	client could be made to create a good voice log. Something like a file per speaker, plus a log with pointers to the time when it was said
[16:10]	Rob Linden:	Dale: yes, that's a huge advantage of using SL for a telecon-type use...all sorts of great visual indicators of who is talking
[16:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	one thing I wnat for voice is auto-mute for people with voice-lock on
[16:11]	Fremont Cunningham:	Not mant leave voice on. Right click mute
[16:11]	Ash Qin:	Not many have voice
[16:11]	Rob Linden:	I have voice lock on, but I have a mute button on my usb headset that mutes me
[16:11]	Joshua Linden:	Good news everyone! We're going to putting out a first drop of the 1.18.0.0 shortly.
[16:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	griefers like to breath heavy, play loud music, etc
[16:11]	Ash Qin:	I think the common man is a lot more annoying
[16:11]	Fremont Cunningham:	what hath '18?
[16:12]	Ash Qin:	The man who has a bad soundcard and bad microphone, constant buzzing, the man who uses speakers instead of headset, so you constantly hear reverb etc.
[16:12]	Stevex Janus:	ok, got to go now. SSe you on monday.
[16:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	laters
[16:12]	Ash Qin:	See you, Stevex
[16:12]	Dale Glass:	I'd be guilty of that if I used voice. Although I use headphones
[16:13]	Rob Linden imagines a Futurama reference in Joshua's comment, even if one wasn't intended
[16:13]	Ash Qin:	I actually prefer talking to the griefers on yahoo voice chat and PoW, because they have a clear microphone.. they just have their voices distorted to sound like a computer or something
[16:13]	Joshua Linden:	Big thing in 1.18 is the work Zero Linden has mentioned about moving from UDP-based messaging to TCP -based messaging for some initial set of messages.
[16:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	some people have legit uses for voice lock (besides you, Rob) like lecturers, tour guides, maybe muricians...
[16:13]	Joshua Linden:	Strictly speaking, LLSD over HTTP
[16:13]	Gigs Taggart:	cool
[16:13]	Rob Linden:	ah...righto
[16:14]	Ash Qin:	Which messaging is moving over to TCP exactly?
[16:14]	Fremont Cunningham:	More security for the transport?
[16:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	prays that group IM gets it fast
[16:14]	Rob Linden:	more security, and a lot more protocol stability
[16:14]	Ash Qin:	Well, if by security you mean reliability
[16:14]	Rob Linden:	(stability in the backwards compatibility perspective)
[16:14]	Ash Qin:	Although I guess security could be done if it were over HTTPS
[16:14]	Joshua Linden:	Yeah. The implementation allows individual messages to be flipped on-the-fly (on the server). So we may experiment a bit to see which make sense to move to TCP.
[16:14]	Fremont Cunningham:	I do mean reliability :)
[16:15]	Joshua Linden:	I think we suspect "everything but object updates" will eventually be TCP but we'll see.
[16:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a suggestion for the beta viewer: give everyone a game-wide group so that you can stress test group IM automatically
[16:15]	Fremont Cunningham:	object position update? Thats the one everyone bitches about :)
[16:16]	Celierra Darling:	Oh, if there's a quick answer - I saw a mention of a "3 repro, 3 votes" rule...what would count as 'a repro'?
[16:16]	Joshua Linden:	... and because new messages and changed messages will be LLSD vs. some funky binary packing, it means backwards/forwards compatibility of viewers vs. the grid. At least as easily as, say, V1 of an app can open documents created with V2 and vice versa.
[16:17]	Wyn Galbraith:	Time to go.
[16:17]	Saijanai Kuhn wants mutiple descriptors per prim and a changed flag for same so we can do flags between scripts
[16:17]	Dale Glass:	that sounds very good :-)
[16:17]	Gigs Taggart:	Celirra I don't think we've ever used a 3 repro rule :)
[16:17]	Gigs Taggart:	1 good repro is enough, after all
[16:19]	Rob Linden:	well..one thing that's tough about 1 repro is that the one repro could be some funky config problem for that person
[16:19]	Gigs Taggart:	I mean a confirmed repro
[16:20]	Ash Qin:	It would be nice if SL had a method for clients that cannot use UDP for whatever reasons to fall back on something that can get past certain annoying setups
[16:20]	Gigs Taggart:	that someone has actually used to repro it :)
[16:20]	Rob Linden:	independently confirmed repro
[16:20]	Gigs Taggart:	yes
[16:20]	Rob Linden:	yup, that's good enough
[16:20]	Celierra Darling:	So repro = confirmation? Or repro = a series of steps? (And of course, what about stuff like "this thing on the website is spelled wrong"? :P )
[16:20]	Fremont Cunningham:	If you cant repro a bug, write back to the reporter and tell em so, ask for more info.
[16:21]	Gigs Taggart:	the series of steps is the repro, confirmation is when someone else gets it to happen following those steps
[16:21]	Rob Linden:	Celierra: obvious stuff like that is fair to import without a "repro"
[16:21]	Gigs Taggart:	at least, that's the termination I use
[16:21]	Gigs Taggart:	terminology rather
[16:21]	Rob Linden:	(though really, a spelling error is easily "reproed"...."yup, spelled wrong in my browser too!"
[16:22]	Celierra Darling nods, "That's why I was confused about '3 repro'... I think of 'repro' as the series of steps, too."
[16:22]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Here's your can of Tiny flavored Linux soda, enjoy!
[16:23]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Here's your can of Tiny flavored Linux soda, enjoy!
[16:23]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Machine is in use by Celierra Darling
[16:23]	linux soda machine Mark II v1.05: Machine is in use by Celierra Darling
[16:23]	Celierra Darling:	Doh >.<
[16:23]	Gigs Taggart:	heh a soda machine with session management
[16:23]	Gigs Taggart:	go LSL!
[16:23]	Rob Linden:	ok....I really should go now
[16:23]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[16:23]	Celierra Darling:	Of course, I clicked 'ignore' instead of 'cancel' :P
[16:23]	Gigs Taggart:	me too
[16:23]	Ash Qin:	Have fun, Rob
[16:24]	Celierra Darling waves, "Have a nice day Gigs!"
[16:24]	Gigs Taggart:	later
[16:24]	Celierra Darling:	And Rob :)
[16:24]	Rob Linden:	bye all, thanks for coming. have a great weekend!
[16:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	take care all