User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Apr 30

• [11:01] Youri Ashton: friendly greetings Which!
• [11:01] Which Linden: Hi there!
• [11:02] Youri Ashton: hold on, im in im with Danica Linden
• [11:02] Youri Ashton: over translation team
• [11:02] Which Linden: oh cool is that something you're into?
• [11:03] Youri Ashton: I got in yesterday :)
• [11:03] Which Linden: I've always thought that was cool stuff but never got into the details of i18n
• [11:03] Youri Ashton: im translating to dutch
• [11:03] Which Linden: cool
• [11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all
• [11:06] Which Linden: Hi Sai
• [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: MOrgaine was feeling crappy last night and said she was going to keep a UK schedule for a while. Guess she's doing it
• [11:07] Which Linden: Is she uk-based? I had no idea
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, said she hasn't slept right since the MMOX meeting
• [11:08] Which Linden: That's a long time ago
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: yep
• [11:08] Which Linden: I guess it was a bit of an intense session
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: well she probably went on US time and never got off it so she was on permanent jet lag
• [11:09] Which Linden: Well it looks like last time we ended up talking some more abour group chat use cases. Morgaine is usually the driver on that so maybe we should talk about something else today
• [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
• [11:09] Which Linden: I hope she gets back on track with the sleep soon
• [11:10] Which Linden: So....um, topics!
• [11:10] Which Linden: Anything interesting going on in the outside world?
• [11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: what's new in the world of networking and such? is LLNet fully deployed now?
• [11:12] Which Linden: I believe so actually
• [11:12] Which Linden: The LLNet rollout went pretty quickly
• [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: waswondering we seem to have reached an average daily peak of about 80+K with no problems which is pretty nice
• [11:12] Which Linden: Yeah it's great
• [11:12] Which Linden: Scaling slowly upwards
• [11:13] Which Linden: We are spending a lot of time on hitting down upcoming scalability problems
• [11:13] Youri Ashton: sorry for that, Which. Just recieved her IM just before you game in.
• [11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: well, one TV mention would push you guys up drastically. Gotta do those product placements
• [11:14] Youri Ashton: today I should not be working, but with what is going on here I rather do something that might be usefull aswell.
• [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: what is going on Youri?
• [11:15] Which Linden: Youri is working on a Dutch translation I believe?
• [11:15] Youri Ashton: yes i am which
• [11:15] Techwolf Lupindo: SL has gotten more stable for me. I've only had one connection issues over the past mounth, and it was due to sim going nuts.
• [11:15] Youri Ashton: but in RL there should be a big party going on today, Queensday
• [11:16] Which Linden: Apparently there was a big sim crash-rate reduction with 1.26
• [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: AH, the google news says there was an attack on teh royal family in Holland today?
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: unfortunatly some lunatic drove his car trough the baricades, trough the spectators and was attempting an attack on the Queen and her family
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: yup that Sai
• [11:16] Aimee Trescothick: saw that on the news, horrible :(
• [11:16] Which Linden: Dang yo
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: 4 got killed, 5 heavily wouned of the 17 victims
• [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: ouch
• [11:17] Youri Ashton: count thus far
• [11:17] Aimee Trescothick: pictures were awful :( I recommend not looking :S
• [11:17] Which Linden: looks
• [11:18] Aimee Trescothick: mm, human nature is a funny thing
• [11:18] Aimee Trescothick: bamboo too I guess
• [11:18] Youri Ashton: look on CNN website, its on the main page
• [11:18] Youri Ashton: for the fainthearthed, please do not look
• [11:19] Youri Ashton: it isnt nice to see people actually flying trought he air
• [11:19] Which Linden: That is pretty crazy stuff. I guess it just goes to show that such a simple thing as a car is a pretty effective weapon
• [11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Someone posted this earlier on groupies. If you expand the map you can track (I think) how things have spread from the cities outward along the roads in Mexico. Amazing what is on the web now: [1]
• [11:19] Youri Ashton: it was a tiny city car :p
• [11:19] Which Linden: I'm actually working from home today because there is a slight risk that I may have come into contact with someone who had the flu
• [11:19] Youri Ashton: not sure what that idiot wanted to do with that... but ow well
• [11:20] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, just be glad he wasn't driving anything larger I guess :S
• [11:20] Youri Ashton: ow well, let us proceed with the meeting, i came in fora distraction :p
• [11:21] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, understandable
• [11:21] Youri Ashton: so whats the topic of today?
• [11:21] Which Linden: I have been casting about for a suitable one
• [11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: we were chatting about the possibilities for a whiteboard protocol in SL.
• [11:22] Which Linden: Oh, ok, we can talk about that, that sounds very speculative
• [11:22] Aimee Trescothick: RC's out officially I here :)
• [11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: things like SVG and whatnot were mentioned, but nothing jumps out as a great candidate
• [11:22] Aimee Trescothick: *hear
• [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: using it now
• [11:23] Which Linden: RC viewer?
• [11:23] Aimee Trescothick: yup
• [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Second Life 1.23.0 (118378) Apr 24 2009 14:44:59 (Second Life Release Candidate)
• [11:23] Youri Ashton: which one?
• [11:23] Techwolf Lupindo: I've been working on updating my ebuild for RC0, but it horriablly broke the avatar_list patch. They move alert.xml to notications.xml and changed the format. :-(
• [11:23] Aimee Trescothick: 14 of my patches finally go public :D
• [11:23] Which Linden: ooh very nice, doesn't it have shadow-draft in it?
• [11:23] Youri Ashton: :p
• [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: it might, but probably not for my mac --low end video
• [11:24] Aimee Trescothick: yep, though only if you know where to dig :D
• [11:24] Techwolf Lupindo: Aimee, I've been using your patches for the past few months.
• [11:24] Techwolf Lupindo: I have a spacenav joystick. :-)
• [11:24] Youri Ashton: they work good tech?
• [11:24] Aimee Trescothick:  :)
• [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: The new renderer supports only high-end graphics cards and requires a GeForce 8 or Radeon HD2600 or later, but will not work on Mac OSs. This version is a debugging prototype only and is not yet supported by Linden Lab.
• [11:25] Which Linden: dang it, I have a mac
• [11:25] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, Mac here too
• [11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: the HD 2600 IS supported on teh PC o well
• [11:25] Youri Ashton: i got a good pc
• [11:25] Johan Laurasia: Wishing I had one now so I could start developing iphone apps
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: but if you do the mojo to activate it in the debug settings you get a cool pastel shading effect
• [11:26] Techwolf Lupindo: Yep. I use the joystick for movement and flycam. I like the fact that joystict and focus windows don't clash for control.
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: iPHone is the new dotcom boom I think
• [11:26] Johan Laurasia: agreed
• [11:26] Youri Ashton: what kind of apps did you want to make then? IM checker or soemthing?
• [11:26] Aimee Trescothick: yeah it's nice to be able to walk and talk
• [11:26] Techwolf Lupindo: whispers: How does one get the shadow and per;ixel in RC0?
• [11:26] Johan Laurasia: oh, anything really, just to get in there
• [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: I'd like to port the pyogp to iphone and have an IM client
• [11:27] Which Linden: yeah an iphone sl client would be k-rad
• [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: go to debug settings and switch on 2 things... can't remember which LOL
• [11:27] Which Linden: actually it probably wouldn't even be that hard
• [11:27] Techwolf Lupindo: Nearly every friend I know in RL has an iphone.
• [11:27] Youri Ashton: I have a iTouch, but its the same idea as iPhone
• [11:27] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, I want to get to some iphone dev, but it's finding the time
• [11:27] Johan Laurasia: I'm starting to think (since getting one last friday) that a light client can be done.
• [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Which, my biggest stumbling block is learning objc/cocoa
• [11:27] Johan Laurasia: the 3D apps I have fly
• [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: the basic innards of pyogp aren't that hard to do since I've done it once already. Its just calls to various socket libs with a littleglue
• [11:28] Youri Ashton: I could use an app to check up on things like xStreet sales, messages, etc and SL IM's and sales
• [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: and enus worked out the proper way to populate the ImprovedInstantMessage packet
• [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: which is what held me up last time
• [11:28] Which Linden: nice
• [11:28] Aimee Trescothick: turn on renderVBOEnable and then renderDeferred
• [11:29] Johan Laurasia: I've done SL by proxy with VNC to my PC
• [11:29] Aimee Trescothick: if I remember rightly
• [11:29] Which Linden: ah yes, deferred
• [11:29] Johan Laurasia: and had the client running that way on the iphone
• [11:29] Which Linden: ha ha....um while that will work it's probably not the best experience
• [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: on the mac, you just get purty pastel colors when you do that :-/
• [11:29] Which Linden: feature!
• [11:29] Techwolf Lupindo: is trying to keep up with two conversations going on in two different sims....
• [11:30] Johan Laurasia: it took some tinkering, I scaled down the client pretty small so the updates were about 1 frame per second, not too shabby
• [11:30] Johan Laurasia: walking/flying and chatting is pretty easy to do, nothing too complex
• [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: gareth had SL running as a firefox plugin at one point. Was pretty slick in a geeky sort of way
• [11:31] Which Linden: ha ha very much so
• [11:31] Johan Laurasia: wow! firefox plugin, that's cool
• [11:31] Which Linden: yeah, that was the whole thing that weirded me out about lively -- it was "in the browser" but it was just a plugin
• [11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: just put a wrapper around the SL client. All the redirection made it slow as molasses but he said it wasn't too hard (for him)
• [11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth is a little scary that way. Genuine autistic savant type I believe
• [11:32] Johan Laurasia: I saw a browser client under development on Youtube I think it was
• [11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: was that the iphone streaming video client?
• [11:33] Johan Laurasia: no, I used Mocha VNC on the iPhone, and realvnc.com's client/server package for the server on my PC
• [11:33] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK Thought you meant the youtube video
• [11:33] Johan Laurasia: free apps the common thread
• [11:33] Johan Laurasia: oh
• [11:34] Johan Laurasia: I dont recall, I just remember seeing some cut down graphics and a bit different interface, I'll see if I can cough up a link
• [11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: I know someone had it running in AjaxLife on an iPhone (I think)
• [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Which, you may find this amusing... someone ported teh Squeak smalltalk vm to the iphone and hooked it to the cocoa libs
• [11:35] Which Linden: cool
• [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: haven't figured out how to install it yet.
• [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: they implemented teh Squeak wiki on an iphone
• [11:35] Which Linden: presumably requires a jailbreak
• [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: nope.
• [11:36] Johan Laurasia: yeah, I logged in an alt via AjaxLife from the safari web broswer np.
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: is a regular iphone app. No squeak libraries. All cocoa bridge
• [11:37] Johan Laurasia: I'm too scared at this point to jaibreak it...lol, only got it last friday
• [11:37] Saijanai Kuhn: [2] think its even available in the app store, not sure
• [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: but I couldn't figure out how to install it in the SDK even with John Mccintosh giving me tips. Not for the faint of heart
• [11:38] Which Linden: Should we divert to the topic of collaborative whiteboarding?
• [11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: [3] here we go.
• [11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: he's trying to get funding to develop it further. Asked if I needed a consultant to help me get it working when I posted in teh squeak list
• [11:40] Which Linden: heh, funny
• [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: but anyway, yeah, whiteboard for SL is an important topic. Infinity was grousing about it a bit as was Zha
• [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: that's how the topic came up: the idea of putting a croquet client inside SL for whiteboard purposes
• [11:42] Which Linden: My prediction is that sometime in the next 10 years we will see a protocol developed for "collaborative <foo>", a generic algorithm for sending and receiving state deltas
• [11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: which is a bit of overkill I think, but actually, the squeak VM + openGL/OpenAL bridge might be small enough to be viable
• [11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: in a sense, TObject does that already on a p2p level
• [11:43] Youri Ashton: sorry, recieved a priority file, had to check it out
• [11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: you familiar with TObject, which?
• [11:44] Which Linden: No, and since it keeps on coming up I probably should learn about it
• [11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: its the heart of croquet. Base object. It acts kinda/sorta like a nano-server for each instance of itself and broadcasts updated state info to each recipient
• [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: so everything in Croquet is a whiteboard that shares state with the other Croquet clients
• [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: kinda sorta
• [11:45] Youri Ashton: hmm.. looks like i have to abandon the meeting unfortunatly, I hope you will excuse me
• [11:46] Which Linden: thanks for stopping by youri
• [11:46] Which Linden: is reading [4]
• [11:47] Which Linden: so it seems to me that the properties of a TObject are that changes are synchronous across all instances of the object, and uses 2PC to agree on changes before they're made
• [11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: something like that I guess. Croquet Hax is in Groupies on occassion. He's one of hte Croquet developers
• [11:47] Which Linden: It also seems to guarantee strong ordering of deltas in the form of messages
• [11:49] Which Linden: I dunno, when I looked into collaborative document research a while back it seems that most research is going in a bit of a different direction
• [11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. THis is geared for the virtual world needs. BUT, it seems to me that it has potential outside that
• [11:50] Which Linden: It sounds like it doesn't scale in terms of the number of copies of the object (and thus, the number of participants in the collaboration)
• [11:51] Saijanai Kuhn: that might be, yeah. which is sad, because its just plain elegant
• [11:51] Which Linden: Maybe that's not important to do, but I suspect it is, at least to handle the use case of "one presenter giving a presentation to many people using a collaborative whiteboard"
• [11:52] Saijanai Kuhn: though if its one presenter, is it really a whiteboard?
• [11:52] Which Linden: Well ok what about two presenters
• [11:52] Saijanai Kuhn: or at least a collaborative one?
• [11:53] Which Linden: Yeah, it wouldn't be collaborative in that case, at least not very much, but, it seems like the same tech should be suitable for the entire spectrum of use cases
• [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: was thinking that the distributed cooperative music networks might be an ok model here. You have a central server that everyone subscribes to that coordinates activity, so its not really P2P but looks like it to the user
• [11:54] Saijanai Kuhn: [5]
• [11:56] Which Linden: I was thinking something more along the lines of the Jupiter protocol, wherein each client generates a stream of deltas and the server(s) reorder or discard them, feeding the resulting pipe back out to the clients
• [11:57] Which Linden: see : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2385977_NetEdit_A_Collaborative_Editor
• [11:59] Which Linden: better link:
• [11:59] Which Linden: [6]
• [11:59] Which Linden: noo
• [11:59] Saijanai Kuhn: a little spammy
• [11:59] Which Linden: stupid google adding its damn analytics
• [11:59] Which Linden: [7]
• [12:00] Saijanai Kuhn: its from XEROX PARC? wondering if its smalltalk based
• [12:00] Aimee Trescothick: damnalytics, today we coin a new word
• [12:01] Which Linden: ha ha, nice
• [12:02] Saijanai Kuhn: written in java
• [12:02] Which Linden: The Language Of Research
• [12:03] Saijanai Kuhn: love figure 4. Simple architecture... ;-)
• [12:03] Which Linden: ha ha yeah that paper is not well-edited
• [12:03] Which Linden: it's like they really really wanted to include the entire source code but had to settle for simply describing every line of it in prose
• [12:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Poor Jack Linden is getting grilled now.
• [12:04] Which Linden: poor dude is kind of the Land Scapegoat
• [12:05] Johan Laurasia: lol
• [12:05] Johan Laurasia: the buck's gotta stop somewhere I guess...
• [12:05] Aimee Trescothick: adds some cheese and opens the source
• [12:05] Aimee Trescothick: err, sauce
• [12:05] Techwolf Lupindo: he just said something to the effect that everyone was positive and have recieved little IM against the AC changes. Does he even read the forums?
• [12:06] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmmm... theprototype sends mesages at the character level, not word/sentence?
• [12:06] Johan Laurasia: Well, some people are just retarded about it, arguing that stuff like strip clubs and BDSM are not adult related.
• [12:06] Which Linden: Heh, well, I sure don't!
• [12:07] Techwolf Lupindo: lol "I like you Which, at least your honest. :-)"
• [12:07] Which Linden: Heh, with that said, I should probably get on with some coding
• [12:08] Which Linden: Been a pleasure chatting with you lot
• [12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks for the URLs. definitely a lot of work going on in that area
• [12:08] Johan Laurasia: pours some water in Which's planter
• [12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: but wow, exchanging single characters in a p2p setting...
• [12:09] Which Linden: maybe that wasn't the right link, I swear I saw some one that was sending arbitrary-sized chunks of text
• [12:09] Which Linden: Etherpad works that way IIRC
• [12:09] Saijanai Kuhn: might be an older report
• [12:09] Saijanai Kuhn: they said it was a direction for optimization
• [12:09] Which Linden: ya
• [12:09] Which Linden: ok! party on, keep on googlin'!