User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Aug 14
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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | oh boy |
| [13:16] | Roberto Salubrius: | if it bothers someone I will de-rezz it |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | what a greeting |
| [13:16] | Theodore Folsom: | hehe |
| [13:16] | Kooky Jetaime: | Hi Zero |
| [13:16] | Kooky Jetaime grins | |
| [13:16] | Rex Cronon: | pay mode to what |
| [13:16] | Tree Kyomoon: | harro zero! |
| [13:16] | JayR Cela: | hi there Zero |
| [13:16] | Nap Pillow: | Script run-time error |
| [13:16] | Nap Pillow: | Math Error |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | wonders where the new furniture came from |
| [13:17] | Wyn Galbraith: | Good afternoon, Zero. |
| [13:17] | Rex Cronon: | hi zero |
| [13:17] | Roberto Salubrius: | hi |
| [13:17] | JayR Cela: | Zero whats up with the back end data base improvements schedulded for tomorrow |
| [13:17] | There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot. | |
| [13:17] | Kovu Lian: | hello |
| [13:17] | Dane Warren: | Evening. |
| [13:17] | Zero Linden: | I'll just sit here |
| [13:17] | Kooky Jetaime: | Ok Zero |
| [13:17] | Theodore Folsom blushes beneath his fur. | |
| [13:17] | Zero Linden: | nah - here is fine |
| [13:17] | Jarod Godel: | yaay |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | welcome all |
| [13:18] | Roberto Salubrius: | thank you |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | what's up? how's the summer? how's the grid? |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | no wait |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | don't answer that.... |
| [13:18] | Theodore Folsom: | hehe |
| [13:18] | Kooky Jetaime snickers | |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | So |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | First off |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | welcome |
| [13:18] | Jurin Juran: | lol |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | second |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | this will all be transcripted in the wiki - which is why I'm not joining in the voice chatter |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | then |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | on to new |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | news |
| [13:19] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I want monospaced fonts for ascii graphics in llSetText |
| [13:19] | Saijanai Kuhn: | can you fix that? ;-) |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | So, barring last minute problems - |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | HetGrid iteration 1 will ship tomorrow!!! |
| [13:19] | Saijanai Kuhn: | /appluase |
| [13:19] | Tree Kyomoon: | whoa! |
| [13:19] | Rex Cronon: | how about the transcript for last tuesday? |
| [13:19] | Roberto Salubrius: | Great |
| [13:19] | JayR Cela: | Zero / kool / but will it work ?? |
| [13:19] | Wyn Galbraith has another AOL support call and is idling. | |
| [13:20] | Saijanai Kuhn: | its not supposed to DO anything yet so hoepfuly it will |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | just added putting up transcripts to my GTD list |
| [13:20] | Tree Kyomoon: | /william shatner voice:"but Spock, at What ...Cost?" |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden is a GTD junkie now | |
| [13:20] | Kooky Jetaime: | gtd? |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | Now, HetGrid 1 will not have huge externalally visible effects |
| [13:21] | Zero Linden: | but it will allow us to bring up small sets of regions running other versions of code |
| [13:21] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero, every time I hear that line "will not have huge externally visible effects" I panic... as do some others, I'm sure. |
| [13:21] | Zero Linden: | in more than the sort of icky- ad hoc way we've been able to manage it before (with fake machine classes!) |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | well - panic away - not much I can do to advance the system that won't incur risk! |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | Actually, Message Liberation went out without so much as a peep |
| [13:22] | Saijanai Kuhn: | it drastically imporoved the M chat issues |
| [13:22] | Saijanai Kuhn: | IM chat |
| [13:23] | Zero Linden: | So, I'm pretty confident that assuming it is still go, it'll be just fine |
| [13:23] | JayR Cela: | kool |
| [13:23] | Roberto Salubrius: | will there be postings of what sims will be testing new code when Het Grid is implemented ? |
| [13:23] | Zero Linden: | Absolutely |
| [13:23] | Saijanai Kuhn: | sandboxes first, I would guess |
| [13:23] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero - Something that may be useful, considering what HetGrid effectively is, is add the Server Version to the Help/About window... I guess a good idea would be something similar to IRCd version numbers, different letters represent different features, of course with some sort of legend on the Wiki somewhere. |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | when we finally get to putting out a publically visitable sim running a different simulator, then it'll be messaged clearly |
| [13:24] | Roberto Salubrius: | Good |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | it won't be a like we'll take some existing region - we'll bring up something like "fu-bar-test 1" region |
| [13:24] | Saijanai Kuhn votes for that name | |
| [13:24] | Roberto Salubrius: | ok that's kool beta inside the main |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden smiles | |
| [13:25] | Tree Kyomoon: | da bang |
| [13:25] | Zero Linden: | It won't be until Het Grid 2 that different version running at once will be a common expereince for the average resident |
| [13:25] | Kooky Jetaime: | Well, over time, (long term) I'm assuming that we're going to have multiple versions running on the grid at the same time.. |
| [13:25] | Squirrel Wood: | Lo and behold! Thou art aboot to enter the wild, untamed sim of Het! Proceed with caution and at your own risk! Cause I ain't gonna rescue you if you go under ;) |
| [13:25] | Kooky Jetaime: | And its simple enough, put it in and get it out of the way |
| [13:25] | Zero Linden: | in Het Grid 2 we support the nefarious sounding "N-Day Deploy" method |
| [13:25] | Saijanai Kuhn: | will that be before or after mono testing starts? |
| [13:25] | Kooky Jetaime: | N day? |
| [13:26] | Zero Linden: | Squirrel - acutally, indeed, upon entering such a region, you get a pop-up dialog warning you "this region is running beta code X... " with release notes |
| [13:26] | JayR Cela: | Kooky N Day = Nuke Day |
| [13:26] | Zero Linden: | Welll, once Het Grid 1 is out, we'll have the ability to do a mono region... |
| [13:26] | Saijanai Kuhn: | instead of rolling restarts, one gets rolling sim-code switches as you walk the islands |
| [13:26] | Zero Linden: | but they aren't quite ready |
| [13:27] | Zero Linden: | So, the N-Day Deploy runs like this: |
| [13:27] | Saijanai Kuhn is hoping to code in mono regios | |
| [13:27] | Roberto Salubrius: | mono will affect only the Sim Codes or will it affect LSL in a way like having classes and such ? |
| [13:27] | Zero Linden: | Say we are ready to deploy 1.18.46 |
| [13:27] | Dane Warren nods, "Oh, forgot my formal greeting." | |
| [13:27] | Zero Linden: | (to pick a number out of a hat!) |
| [13:27] | Dane Warren: | WOOF!! |
| [13:28] | Zero Linden: | Today we'd on wednesday morning just do a rolling deploy across the grid |
| [13:28] | Shaun Altman: | Roberto: wouldn't it be great to code in languages other than LSL using Mono? :) |
| [13:28] | Zero Linden: | but once we have N-Day deploy |
| [13:28] | Zero Linden: | what we'll do is |
| [13:28] | Zero Linden: | On Tuesday |
| [13:29] | Roberto Salubrius: | shaun of course but that's my main Question Mono will be only for The Sim Software or will it enter as part of LSL |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | we'll roll out 1.18.46 to 100 regions |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | you'll know which 100 -- it'll be the same 100 regions that always get the new version first |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | it'll be listed in the wiki |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | Then we wait..... |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | and look at stats... |
| [13:29] | Saijanai Kuhn: | pray... |
| [13:29] | Shaun Altman: | Zero: can u apply to be on that list? (or to avoid being on it?) |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | And on Wednesday, if all is well, we roll out 1.18.46 to, say, 1000 regions |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | and wait again |
| [13:30] | Saijanai Kuhn: | pray some more... |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | And then on Thursday, the remaining regions |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | NOW |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | all of this applies to main land regions |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | estates will follow a different plan |
| [13:30] | Shaun Altman: | Ooh ok |
| [13:30] | Wyn Galbraith makes sacrifices to the computer gods. | |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | you'll be able to set your regions (or whole estate? not sure yet) to either |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | "Auto Update" or "Estate Version X", where X is some fixed version number |
| [13:31] | Zero Linden: | if you are set to Auto Update, then your estate goes with the remainder of the mainland goes (or perhpas the day after, we're not sure yet) |
| [13:31] | Zero Linden: | if you set it to a version, it doesn't go until you set it to a different (later only) version .... or we end-of-life the version (with warning) |
| [13:32] | Squirrel Wood: | if you EOL the version then the sim will update to the latest version? |
| [13:32] | Zero Linden: | So estate owners get to be in control of when they go |
| [13:32] | Tree Kyomoon: | yay more power for us estate owners! |
| [13:33] | Zero Linden: | Squirrel - not sure how that should work - either we a) force you up one version, b) force it the latest, c) freak out and call you on the phone.... |
| [13:33] | Zero Linden: | ? |
| [13:33] | Wyn Galbraith cheers. | |
| [13:33] | Roberto Salubrius: | if I can add my 2 Cents, there should be a deadline for auto-update on State Owners.... |
| [13:33] | Kooky Jetaime: | Boy, I see land owned on private estates suddenly plummeting in value if you have a Landlord who don't like to update. |
| [13:33] | Squirrel Wood: | Ooo! I vote C |
| [13:33] | Zero Linden: | well, we'd have to charge you a bit more for that..... :-) |
| [13:33] | Squirrel Wood: | I get freaked out people on the phone at work all day ^^ |
| [13:33] | Saijanai Kuhn: | for freaking out? |
| [13:33] | Roberto Salubrius: | because if someone is not on the grid for months or so they will end up with 3-4 versions below the versions of maingrid |
| [13:33] | Wyn Galbraith: | LOL Squirrel, I've done that work before. |
| [13:34] | Shaun Altman: | I would be willing to pay a premium fee for calls from freaked out Lindens :) |
| [13:34] | Squirrel Wood: | I'd expect one hell of a show. At least 10 minutes of shouting ^^ |
| [13:34] | Wyn Galbraith: | Lindens don't freak out. Do they ;) |
| [13:34] | Wyn Galbraith: | LOL |
| [13:34] | Zero Linden: | Hmmmm... Shaun, I'll let Zee Linden know of the new revenue opportunity! |
| [13:34] | Shaun Altman: | Squirrel: for sure :) |
| [13:35] | Shaun Altman: | lol Zero :) |
| [13:35] | Shaun Altman: | :X |
| [13:35] | Roberto Salubrius: | ok Mono and LSL will we see differences on LSL when mono is implemented or it will only be server side ? |
| [13:35] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Is there to be a HetGrid 3? I seem to recall talk of multiple branches of beta testing on grid |
| [13:35] | Zero Linden: | well, for money I'd be happy to freak out..... |
| [13:35] | Zero Linden assumes we're NOT talking about the 1970s disco dance steps.... | |
| [13:35] | Saijanai Kuhn pays other people money when he freaks out... | |
| [13:35] | Zero Linden is not doin' no disco moves | |
| [13:35] | Dane Warren sighs, "Lindens are useless when they can't even reply to you by e-mail." | |
| [13:36] | Tree Kyomoon would freak out for money too | |
| [13:36] | Saijanai Kuhn: | BUT for a fee, they' ll give you an hysterical call on the phone... |
| [13:36] | Roberto Salubrius: | sorry this is my First time in a meeting like this is there a Q/A at the end ? |
| [13:36] | Shaun Altman: | I found it can be frustrating, or not, depending on who you need to email lol. |
| [13:36] | Zero Linden: | Okay- so LSL/Mono questions under Het Grid |
| [13:37] | Roberto Salubrius: | ok no |
| [13:37] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Zero, about the multiple branches... |
| [13:37] | Wyn Galbraith: | Is that log posted, Zero, from the LSL/Mono meeting? |
| [13:37] | Zero Linden: | there will be NO difference in the set of functions or language available under LSL compiled to Mono or LSL compiled for the LSL VM |
| [13:37] | Roberto Salubrius: | ok |
| [13:37] | Zero Linden: | LSL the language will be the same.... just way faster under Mono |
| [13:37] | Shaun Altman: | Zero: will there eventually be though? |
| [13:38] | Tree Kyomoon: | so no chance of arrays or objects inside LSL? |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | you will have the option of compiling for Mono or LSL VM on the beta Mono sims --- and |
| [13:38] | Rex Cronon: | how about arrays? will lsl ever have that? |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | if you choose MONO, then those scripts will only run on Mono sims (duh...) |
| [13:38] | Saijanai Kuhn: | wil it be possible to have 2 copies of a script? |
| [13:38] | Wyn Galbraith: | Can you allow both to run? |
| [13:38] | Jarod Godel: | zing |
| [13:38] | Roberto Salubrius: | Have lindens tought about giving us more memory for each Script block... just asking =) |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | Shaun - I don't think there will be differences in that you will be able to compile for one vs. the other and have different features |
| [13:39] | Zero Linden: | at some point, you'll only be able to compile for Mono - and that is the point we can start thinking about extending the language |
| [13:39] | Zero Linden: | or supporting other languages. |
| [13:39] | Roberto Salubrius: | Great |
| [13:39] | Roberto Salubrius: | Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! :D :p :D :p :D |
| [13:39] | Shaun Altman: | Oh, I had my wires crossed here.. I was thinking more down the road into different languages. |
| [13:39] | Jarod Godel: | oh |
| [13:39] | Rex Cronon: | that sounds like a few years in the future |
| [13:39] | Shaun Altman: | It would be really useful to code in something like C# here. |
| [13:39] | Saijanai Kuhn: | people definitely want arrays and other features that are available with mono. Will wee need to switch to new language to get new features, period? |
| [13:39] | Jarod Godel: | so Perl.SL is a ways off? |
| [13:40] | Zero Linden: | yes |
| [13:40] | Zero Linden: | a ways off |
| [13:40] | Jarod Godel: | as are arrays, even under Mono? |
| [13:40] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the faster peole make the switch, the faster we get LSL-mono right? |
| [13:40] | Tree Kyomoon: | or making LSL ECMA compliant? |
| [13:40] | Squirrel Wood: | It will be done before christmas - though it is unclear which year... |
| [13:40] | Zero Linden: | well, I don't know if we'd decided to extend LSL or add some other language |
| [13:40] | Roberto Salubrius: | ok so mono will be speed/performance/and lang update on the long run... |
| [13:40] | Kooky Jetaime: | I wouldn't mind seeing LSL just extended |
| [13:41] | Zero Linden: | I'm not sure what "LSL ECMA compliant" would mean - ECMA is a standards body, and ECMA Script is a different language |
| [13:41] | Kooky Jetaime: | your getting the speed benefit so |
| [13:41] | Roberto Salubrius: | Great speed is good =) |
| [13:41] | Tree Kyomoon: | I'd have to get back to you on that one |
| [13:41] | Jarod Godel: | I think Tree wants LSL to become JavaScript. |
| [13:42] | Tree Kyomoon: | ding ding ding ding |
| [13:42] | Wyn Galbraith: | Oh nooo! |
| [13:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | so no new features until non-mono goes away completely? |
| [13:42] | Jarod Godel: | To make it easier for Flash/FLEX coders to work in SL |
| [13:42] | Squirrel Wood: | lsl-java? Nooooo :p |
| [13:42] | Zero Linden: | I'd rather provide "ECMA Script / JavaScript" with LSL library bindings, than attempt to warp LSL into that language |
| [13:42] | Roberto Salubrius: | well please no java |
| [13:42] | Saijanai Kuhn would like sims to be able to proudly proclaim "certified 100% mono" | |
| [13:42] | Rex Cronon: | why not java? |
| [13:42] | Wyn Galbraith: | Javascript isn't Java. |
| [13:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | C# iNSTEAD? |
| [13:43] | Roberto Salubrius: | C# better =) |
| [13:43] | Tree Kyomoon: | hey Im biased what can I say, and yes Javascript isnt Java |
| [13:43] | Rex Cronon: | not really |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | We'll be running both VMs in sims for a long time to come. Just, at some point, stop compiling for the old LSL VM.... |
| [13:43] | Squirrel Wood: | k.i.s.s. principle ^^ - keep it at a level that most players can comprehend ^^ |
| [13:43] | Jarod Godel: | I don't give a fuck what syntax you use, I just want arrays and #include/require/import |
| [13:43] | Roberto Salubrius: | no javascript is another thing =) |
| [13:43] | Saijanai Kuhn: | at the level of LSL scripting, how can you tell the diff between Java and C#? |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - #Include/require/import is a very differnt matter - |
| [13:43] | Shaun Altman: | Jarod: and some memory plz :P |
| [13:43] | Wyn Galbraith: | Java would not be easy for the non-programmers, where Javascript is a different animal. |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | it isn't clear how those could/would work..... |
| [13:44] | Jarod Godel: | Zero, sure, but it becomes a simpler matter once we get Mono. |
| [13:44] | Saijanai Kuhn: | someone suggested creating a common library of functions iunder mono |
| [13:44] | Rex Cronon: | there are things in java-script that are quite complex |
| [13:44] | Kooky Jetaime: | that seems like a disaster in LSL (#include/etc) |
| [13:44] | Saijanai Kuhn: | include xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxxxxxx |
| [13:44] | Jarod Godel: | (And I'm not discounting the benefit of an obj-to-obj communication model, as we have now) |
| [13:44] | Kooky Jetaime: | Especially with the 16K memory celing. |
| [13:44] | Dane Warren: | Sorry everyone, duty calls. I'll see you later. |
| [13:44] | Kovu Lian: | Nini Dane |
| [13:45] | Wyn Galbraith: | Bye Dane. |
| [13:45] | Roberto Salubrius: | yes the 16K Memory is is quite a bummer sometimes |
| [13:45] | Roberto Salubrius: | bye |
| [13:45] | Theodore Folsom: | cya dane |
| [13:45] | Kooky Jetaime: | bye dane |
| [13:45] | JayR Cela: | bye-byee Dane |
| [13:45] | Squirrel Wood: | Doesn't mono have a much better memory footprint ? |
| [13:45] | Zero Linden: | yes, 16k is - but the limit has to be somehwer |
| [13:45] | Jarod Godel: | I'm just throwing that out, saying whatever road you take with LSL, LSL-mono, LSL-ECMA...don't forget that syntax is just one part of a language. |
| [13:45] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - it doesn't |
| [13:46] | Tree Kyomoon: | so what about an API, that is would SL essentially become an RIA platform with a more powerful language? |
| [13:46] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero - Lets at least double that... 32K would be a lot more reasonable.. its not like people arn't finding their way around it anyways |
| [13:46] | Zero Linden: | does include mean, includ this version of this script in my inventory as it is right now? as it is at the time it is run? |
| [13:46] | Kooky Jetaime: | I've seen some vendors that are running 16 scripts alone |
| [13:46] | Kooky Jetaime: | All it does is create hassle in handling llLinkMessages |
| [13:46] | Shaun Altman: | Zero: the memory limit wouldn't even be so bad in a lot of cases if it were possible to like, rent db space from SL and have that integrated into LSL rather than having all the complexities of running and calling out to an external site. |
| [13:47] | Squirrel Wood: | mayhaps provide a bunch of static mono scripts that are running on each sim that provide advanced functionality like encryption, basic maths library and the like ? and then include those ? |
| [13:47] | Jarod Godel: | Zero, I was thinking "include the version in the object" |
| [13:47] | Zero Linden: | Kooky- well it is likely that that will be true no matter what size we pick..... so it is a trade off and I'm not sure I have any metrics to help me decide on one size or another |
| [13:47] | Zero Linden: | in otherwords, I have no idea if 16k is right or not |
| [13:47] | Jarod Godel: | That way you could update the library, but not break the running script until you re-compiled it. |
| [13:47] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - I wonder if such things might be better of handled in some sort fo dev. environemnt extension to the viewer...... |
| [13:48] | Kooky Jetaime: | Well, I don't know how you would even come into having metrics for it.... |
| [13:48] | Jarod Godel: | Zero, you mean munge the text together then compile? |
| [13:48] | Jarod Godel: | That would work. |
| [13:48] | Zero Linden: | well if that is what "#include/require/import" means int helnaguage |
| [13:48] | JayR Cela: | Zero a optional Dev enviorment embedded in the viewer gets my vote |
| [13:48] | Saijanai Kuhn throws out the common language asset idea again: include xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx is a key to a given library | |
| [13:49] | Saijanai Kuhn: | well tested and documented |
| [13:49] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero - is every script given a 16K block of server memory, irregardless if it needs it or not? Or is memory dynamically allocated by the sim? |
| [13:49] | Roberto Salubrius: | is there anyway we could get some sort of code highlight or just some normal IDE stuff in here |
| [13:49] | Zero Linden: | but basically, I'd rather the viewer did dependency analysis and trigger re-compile than the sim noticing --- oh, you've dropped a new "zippy" module into this object... better recompile all the scripts in this object that import it |
| [13:49] | Jarod Godel: | Zero, I agree |
| [13:49] | Kooky Jetaime: | Roberto - Try lslEditor |
| [13:49] | Kooky Jetaime: | its great |
| [13:49] | Roberto Salubrius: | I know but inworld kooky =) |
| [13:50] | Zero Linden: | Kooky- I thnk it is statically allocated |
| [13:50] | Zero Linden: | but in Mono, it isn't |
| [13:50] | citynevula Tobias: | alguem fala portugues aqui |
| [13:50] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero - Ok.... Then 16k makes sense |
| [13:50] | Kooky Jetaime: | but once its dynamically allocated, you can grant scripts a lot more, but it doesn't needlessly eat up the resources if it don't use it. |
| [13:50] | Saijanai Kuhn wants well-defined plug-in api for LSL editors, external chat answering machines, etc | |
| [13:50] | Zero Linden: | Personally, I use SubEthaEdit with LSL highlighting, and I run all my scripts through the cpp pre-processor before uploading ... so I get #include and #define |
| [13:51] | Squirrel Wood: | Humm..... What I'd like to see is some sort of code snippet library thing... open sauce... that people can browse through and piece scripts together... |
| [13:51] | Kooky Jetaime: | This is like the old line "You'll never need more than 640K of memory on a computer" |
| [13:51] | Theodore Folsom: | that would be nice Squirs .... but a lot of work to do |
| [13:51] | Zero Linden: | mmmmmmm.... open sauce....... |
| [13:51] | Wyn Galbraith: | CPM |
| [13:51] | Theodore Folsom: | hehe |
| [13:51] | Saijanai Kuhn: | something like stone soup |
| [13:51] | Rex Cronon: | isn't there a wiki squirrel? |
| [13:52] | Wyn Galbraith: | 64m was all that CPM needed. |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | well - we'd still have to put a cap on it.... or we'll get people building lists of all visitors to a parcel since time began, and other mega-byte nightmares! |
| [13:52] | Squirrel Wood: | yes. but I mean ingame in the script editor.. |
| [13:52] | Saijanai Kuhn: | kernel of UNIX was smaller at one point |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | Squirrel -- what I'd really like to see is a shared text/code editor in-viewer |
| [13:52] | Wyn Galbraith: | What was the max on a 8" floppy? 128? |
| [13:52] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero - Something else that might help is expand the Library/Scripts with common snippets... Things that are cleanly (and written as efficiently as mechanically possible) that others can use |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | so we could all be editing a notecard or script together.... |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | that would be HOT |
| [13:52] | Kooky Jetaime: | instead of thousands of people re-inventing the wheel. |
| [13:53] | Kooky Jetaime: | in less than round form. |
| [13:53] | Squirrel Wood: | mayhaps give them 8k to start and cap it out at 32k and allow up to 64k for short periods (memory intense operations) ? |
| [13:53] | Zero Linden: | The size of an 8" floppy was determined based on the amount of text a card-key-punch operator could type in one 8 hour shift |
| [13:53] | Zero Linden: | honest |
| [13:53] | Saijanai Kuhn remembers head per track diskdriuves with 10KB for the entire 8 platter asseumbly | |
| [13:53] | Kooky Jetaime: | hahaha |
| [13:53] | Zero Linden is showing his age.... | |
| [13:53] | Tree Kyomoon: | lol thats funny |
| [13:54] | Wyn Galbraith: | LOL Zero. |
| [13:54] | Kooky Jetaime: | Zero - Another possibility would be seperate memory limits... 1 limit for the bytecode, and another for memory usage. |
| [13:54] | Wyn Galbraith: | I still have 8" floppies somewhere. |
| [13:54] | Zero Linden: | kooky- though again, we'd have to find someway to limit.... |
| [13:54] | Saijanai Kuhn wants to swap computer horro storeis with Zero some time | |
| [13:54] | Kooky Jetaime: | say a 16K bytecode limit, with 32K or 64K limit of variables |
| [13:54] | Kooky Jetaime: | well, you seem to limit well right now :) |
| [13:54] | Zero Linden: | of course, I realize that the current limits are absurd since you put as many scripts as you want in your objects |
| [13:54] | Squirrel Wood: | I wonder... would it be possible to let scripts write to an *existing* notecard, say, line by line ? |
| [13:54] | Wyn Galbraith: | It's like goldfish, you give them a little room they stay little, you give them a big pond they grow to fit the pond. |
| [13:54] | Zero Linden: | (after all, I have objects with over 5k lines of script in 'em) |
| [13:55] | Rex Cronon: | yes. notecard writing |
| [13:55] | Zero Linden: | well put, Wyn |
| [13:55] | Saijanai Kuhn recalls the thin Mac doing everything in 128KB | |
| [13:55] | Wyn Galbraith: | Thanks ;) |
| [13:55] | Shaun Altman: | Squirrel: why not just offer a database? that would even be a revenue stream. |
| [13:55] | Zero Linden: | Nope - Never - Nu-uh --- we will never have scripts writing notecards (or other scripts for that matter) |
| [13:55] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes...I can rember having to keep my installers under 1.44 mb |
| [13:55] | Squirrel Wood: | :( |
| [13:56] | Kooky Jetaime: | Wyn - thats why I suggest having a small bytecode limit, because I think (Guessing) a lot of time its not the code that eats up spaces, its the variables in the code |
| [13:56] | Zero Linden: | notecards and scripts are assets and asset deletion is very difficult - it is garbage collecting the world |
| [13:56] | Wyn Galbraith: | I still try to code lean and mean, though I'm not a programmer. Test code worked better that way. |
| [13:56] | Zero Linden: | we do NOT want general script execution creating more asset garbage |
| [13:56] | Saijanai Kuhn: | what svg on a card? |
| [13:56] | Wyn Galbraith is going to have to cut out after the meeting, her computer knowledge is needed off site. "They came to get me!" | |
| [13:56] | Roberto Salubrius: | Zero is there a way to Have a Variable like Description or Object Name in the Prim Just Allocated for Saving Data ? a new Variable ? |
| [13:56] | Kooky Jetaime: | hhaahah |
| [13:56] | Zero Linden: | and assets must be write once - so we can agressivly cache 'em |
| [13:57] | Rex Cronon: | but objects can give objects to other object |
| [13:57] | Zero Linden: | Roberto - well, many people make use of the description field in an internal linked prim |
| [13:57] | Tree Kyomoon: | there has to be an intelligent way to manage and allow dynamic scripts without causing management problems |
| [13:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | oxymoron time here? |
| [13:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | what happens if a script recursively creates itself? |
| [13:57] | Zero Linden: | Tree - gosh you have no idea how hard object rez managment is! |
| [13:58] | Wyn Galbraith can imagine. | |
| [13:58] | Roberto Salubrius: | yes Zero but I think its a waste of prims and if we could have a Variable more on a prim just for saving data that will fix all the questions on how to save data |
| [13:58] | Zero Linden: | very very very hard to tell the out-of-control script from the perfectly-reasonable-cool-gizmo |
| [13:58] | Roberto Salubrius: | or the eternal question of writing on notecards |
| [13:58] | Zero Linden: | True enough - but again, it is a way to limit resources, eh? |
| [13:58] | Tree Kyomoon: | Oh Im sure its hard...but it was impossible to imagine the IC 100 years ago |
| [13:58] | Tree Kyomoon: | :) |
| [13:59] | Zero Linden: | really, if you want long term data storage for objects I implore you to use off-world storage if you at all can. |
| [13:59] | Wyn Galbraith: | LOL Tree. |
| [13:59] | Roberto Salubrius: | well with a fixed length of duno 8K |
| [13:59] | Zero Linden: | I do for almost all of my own objects - using llHTTPRequest |
| [13:59] | Roberto Salubrius: | no I do use off World Storage on PHP and Mysql off world |
| [13:59] | Tree Kyomoon: | lhttprequest needs cookies |
| [13:59] | Zero Linden: | a big advanatage is that I can destroy or lose or kill my objects --- then re-rez and the data can just be fethced again |
| [13:59] | Wyn Galbraith: | That's a good idea. |
| [13:59] | Zero Linden: | I manage, without cookies, and it is secure |
| [14:00] | Rex Cronon: | u have a site that u can read/write to zero. not everybody does zero |
| [14:00] | Saijanai Kuhn would like to see svg/http on a prim where all asets are found on local host and local host is the inventory of said prim | |
| [14:00] | Zero Linden: | I know - |
| [14:00] | Kooky Jetaime: | yea, I have a mysql if I want to learn how to use it :) |
| [14:00] | Roberto Salubrius: | There Are Free Sites Rex that give you php and mysql |
| [14:00] | Zero Linden: | though, more than one person (myself included) offers their site for free usage |
| [14:00] | Roberto Salubrius: | I use one for SL storage |
| [14:01] | Zero Linden: | an no set up required - I run a public "silo" site |
| [14:01] | Tree Kyomoon: | I want to interface with existing API's that have been develped to a set of standards |
| [14:01] | Wyn Galbraith is going to have to go, they're dragging me out the door. I got to go fix software. | |
| [14:01] | Roberto Salubrius: | they limit them to 1-2 databases but in 1 database you can create N tables |
| [14:01] | Zero Linden: | That, tree, may require cookies, |
| [14:01] | Tree Kyomoon: | not some home spun little mysql app |
| [14:01] | Rex Cronon: | and they need to call u at home, and have all kind of strange, and privacy invading question u have to answer, roberto |
| [14:01] | Zero Linden: | though, you konw, most Web Service based APIs (flickr, google, etc...) don't require cookies |
| [14:01] | Tree Kyomoon: | :) |
| [14:01] | JayR Cela: | byee Wyn / have fun fixing someone elses mistakes :_) |
| [14:01] | Wyn Galbraith: | Thanks for the meeting Zero. Always a pleasure, nice to see the Ponies here too. Argh it's quickbooks and AOL problems. |
| [14:02] | Roberto Salubrius: | no just jump in and make an account |
| [14:02] | Tree Kyomoon: | many dont yes, I just have my own needs :) |
| [14:02] | Wyn Galbraith: | Just not getting paid for it, well I get lunch ;) byebye. |
| [14:02] | Tree Kyomoon: | bye wyn |
| [14:02] | Rex Cronon: | bye wyn |
| [14:02] | Roberto Salubrius: | Zero I have an off topic question, can I ask you in IM when the metting is done? |
| [14:02] | Roberto Salubrius: | bye |
| [14:02] | Roberto Salubrius: | wyn |
| [14:02] | Zero Linden: | sure |
| [14:02] | Roberto Salubrius: | thank you |
| [14:03] | JayR Cela: | Zero thanks for a good informative meeting / got to go everyone / Bye~Byee |
| [14:03] | Theodore Folsom: | byes JayR |
| [14:03] | Roberto Salubrius: | Good Bye JayR |
| [14:03] | Tree Kyomoon: | I just think its better from the immersiveness perspective if you can allow more flexiblity in world |
| [14:03] | Roberto Salubrius: | have a nice day |
| [14:03] | Rex Cronon: | bye jayr |
| [14:03] | Kovu Lian: | Bye |
| [14:04] | Roberto Salubrius: | Zero you in LL use Mysql as the assets Server why not migrate to a more powerfull stable SQL like progress ? |
| [14:04] | Roberto Salubrius: | I think it might help out with all the assets problems |
| [14:04] | Tree Kyomoon: | arg my chats are getting eaten |
| [14:04] | Squirrel Wood: | how about a llGetData() and llSetData() wrapper that does the external silo storage on a given storage db ? |
| [14:04] | Zero Linden: | http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=119570 |
| [14:04] | Zero Linden: | and http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:LSL_Library for info on Silo |
| [14:05] | Tree Kyomoon: | mabey dynamic script generation for only sim and region owners :) |
| [14:05] | Roberto Salubrius: | kool and I have been coding all my own PHP =) |
| [14:05] | Zero Linden: | Roberto - we do NOT use mysql for assets |
| [14:05] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Zero, what is the beta grid going to be used for after tormoorow? |
| [14:05] | Roberto Salubrius: | oh I got the Info Wrong then sorry =) |
| [14:05] | Zero Linden: | assets are stored in a distributed, replicated, redudant file server |
| [14:05] | Roberto Salubrius: | oh Great |
| [14:06] | Kooky Jetaime: | What about the database? :) |
| [14:06] | Zero Linden: | we do us MySQL for many other things, though.... |
| [14:06] | Jarod Godel: | assets are stored more like Amazon S3, right? |
| [14:06] | Roberto Salubrius: | someone told me the assets was on Mysql I tought it was ridiculous and well she was wrong and it is ridiculous |
| [14:06] | Zero Linden: | ...as for not moving to Postgress or Oracle or pick-your-solves-everything-sql-solution .... it is because SQL isn't quite perfectly standard and |
| [14:07] | Zero Linden: | it would be a lot of work for getting onto another DB platform.... and we aren't convinced it would gain us a lot |
| [14:07] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - yes, similar to S3 - only we have our own HTTP based file store |
| [14:08] | Jarod Godel nods | |
| [14:08] | Roberto Salubrius: | nice squirell |
| [14:08] | Kooky Jetaime watches his inventory load slowly. | |
| [14:08] | Squirrel Wood: | ^^ |
| [14:08] | Zero Linden: | Yes, putting terabytes of data in a DB would be rediculous |
| [14:08] | Saijanai Kuhn used to work o something likethat but his was in a pretty grey box about 5 feet high | |
| [14:08] | Zero Linden: | the inventory records ( which only point at the assets by id) ARE stored in DBs ... but we have over a dozen, dividing the accounts across them |
| [14:09] | Zero Linden: | well, folks, I've got to wrap up |
| [14:09] | Tree Kyomoon: | thanks again zero |
| [14:09] | Squirrel Wood: | It was quite interesting today - as always :) |
| [14:09] | Theodore Folsom: | thanks Zero =) was very interesting |
| [14:09] | Zero Linden: | thanks all for coming... |
| [14:09] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes very informative! |
| [14:09] | Saijanai Kuhn: | grats on hetgrid release |
| [14:09] | Squirrel Wood: | thank you for having us ^^ |
| [14:09] | Rex Cronon: | bye zero |
| [14:09] | Zero Linden: | see ya on Thursday ... and I'll try to get it all in the wiki by then.... |