User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 28
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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:
| [7:38] | Zero Linden: | Y |
| [7:38] | Zero Linden: | sorry I'm late, all |
| [7:38] | Tao Takashi: | HI Zero |
| [7:38] | Benja Kepler: | hi |
| [7:39] | Tao Takashi: | np :) |
| [7:39] | Zha Ewry: | Morning Zero |
| [7:39] | Zero Linden: | Smaller turn out than last time - 'suppose we burned folks out! |
| [7:39] | Benja Kepler: | Can I ask a question about the SL viewer and video cards supported? |
| [7:39] | Zero Linden: | Also, Summer I suppose |
| [7:39] | Zero Linden: | First, |
| [7:39] | Zha Ewry: | Early for the left coast folks like you, too. This one always runs smaller |
| [7:40] | Zero Linden: | obligatory statement: I put the transcript in the wiki --- speak openly |
| [7:40] | Zero Linden: | Benja, you can ask, but I can't say I know much about that |
| [7:40] | Benja Kepler: | Does Linden Lab test all the video cards mentioned in the 'Minimum System Requirements' before an upgrade to the viewer? |
| [7:40] | Tree Kyomoon: | hello folks |
| [7:40] | Wyn Galbraith: | Morning Tree, Zero. |
| [7:40] | Zero Linden: | We have a collection we test with in house, and I know that we use an external testing group for a much larger set |
| [7:41] | Zero Linden: | I'll be honest that I don't know if we use them for each and every release |
| [7:41] | Benja Kepler: | I ask this because bug VWR-1217 (jerky head movements) is fixed, and it works on my nVidia machine but not on my ATI computer. |
| [7:41] | Zero Linden: | But since we don't change the rendering engine in each release, I'd bet not |
| [7:41] | Tao Takashi: | the question is maybe if every single bug is QAd with all graphics card |
| [7:41] | Benja Kepler: | ok, thanks |
| [7:41] | Tree Kyomoon: | zero before I forget, I wanted to mention I was at a speech by Lawrence LInden on the history of the LIndex, and he was quite flattering of you and your contribution to SL. |
| [7:41] | Tao Takashi: | and I guess not ;-) |
| [7:41] | Zero Linden: | Tao - the answer to that is certainly no |
| [7:42] | Zero Linden: | Oh, nice to know |
| [7:42] | Rex Cronon: | good morning everybody |
| [7:42] | Wyn Galbraith: | Time to ask for a raise ;) |
| [7:42] | Wyn Galbraith: | Morning Rex |
| [7:42] | Tao Takashi: | or two ;-) |
| [7:42] | Zero Linden: | Hmmm.... Cory's right behind me in the office - I'll suppose I could do that.... |
| [7:42] | Tree Kyomoon: | he is at millionsofus now, and there were only two of us in the audience |
| [7:42] | Tree Kyomoon: | if anyone wants the transcript I have it |
| [7:43] | Wyn Galbraith: | I wish I had known about that meeting. |
| [7:43] | Tao Takashi: | me too |
| [7:43] | Wyn Galbraith would like it. | |
| [7:43] | Zero Linden: | It was part of the SL4 history stuff, right? |
| [7:43] | Tree Kyomoon: | it was awesome to hear about the history of the lindex |
| [7:43] | Tao Takashi: | then again I think I do too many meetings in here already ;-) |
| [7:43] | Tao Takashi: | if you have the transcript I'd be happy to get a copy :) |
| [7:43] | Tree Kyomoon: | sure Let me get it into a notecard |
| [7:43] | Wyn Galbraith had a hard time getting to the core of the SL birthday party. | |
| [7:43] | Tree Kyomoon: | and I'll start dropping |
| [7:44] | Tao Takashi: | you can also email it to me if that is easier |
| [7:44] | Tao Takashi: | tao.takashi@gmail.com |
| [7:44] | Wyn Galbraith: | Me too, wyngalbraith@earthlink.net |
| [7:45] | Zero Linden: | I wonder if Laurance would object to it being in the public wiki |
| [7:45] | Zero Linden: | seems like a good place for it |
| [7:45] | Tao Takashi: | or in the history wiki |
| [7:45] | Wyn Galbraith: | Oh absolutely. |
| [7:45] | Wyn Galbraith: | What is the max for people in a sim? |
| [7:45] | Zero Linden: | It is settable by an estate manager |
| [7:45] | Zero Linden: | I believe we set the mainland all at 40 |
| [7:46] | Tao Takashi: | depends if you want people still to move ;-) |
| [7:46] | Wyn Galbraith: | The core of the SL BD was 40. |
| [7:46] | Harleen Gretzky: | 100 is the max you can set it too |
| [7:46] | Zero Linden: | There are two constraints on it - one, and most constraining, is how many we can render |
| [7:46] | Tao Takashi: | btw, there is no way to e.g. "register" some free slots for e.g. a speaker? |
| [7:46] | Tao Takashi: | like if I do an event and the speaker crashs that seems to be a problem |
| [7:47] | Zero Linden: | If I turn off character rendering here - I get 28FPS |
| [7:47] | Wyn Galbraith: | Good idea Tao. |
| [7:47] | Zero Linden: | with it on, 15FPS |
| [7:47] | Tao Takashi: | so you know where to improve, Zero ;-) |
| [7:47] | Tao Takashi: | why do they take that much FPS? |
| [7:47] | Zha Ewry: | I park and alt or two.. up at 700, to be able to pop them off to let speakers back in when running events |
| [7:47] | Zero Linden: | so to render 8 AVs takes almost 1/2 the graphics engine |
| [7:47] | Tao Takashi: | Zha: I just need to be faster than the others who want to get in |
| [7:47] | Tao Takashi: | so the only way seems to make a group with invites |
| [7:48] | Tao Takashi: | but it would be nice to have a list of avatars always allowed |
| [7:48] | Tao Takashi: | if it's not >100 |
| [7:48] | Zha Ewry: | Yes, tho, who gets kicked, would be fun... or... hold slots free |
| [7:48] | Tao Takashi: | like the filesystem reserve :) |
| [7:48] | Benja Kepler: | and does the prims attached to an avatar affect the sim too? |
| [7:48] | Wyn Galbraith has to make her alt make new groups cause she's out. | |
| [7:48] | Zero Linden: | well - AV rendering is much more complicated than the rest of the objects- and it is an important part of making SL feel immersive |
| [7:48] | Zero Linden: | Benja - well, not the prims per se.... |
| [7:49] | Zero Linden: | of course they increase rendering load.... but not more than other prims |
| [7:49] | Zero Linden: | the problem tends to be that |
| [7:49] | Wyn Galbraith: | Speak of crashes and lose Tao. |
| [7:49] | Zero Linden: | a) attachments often have scripts that are CPU intensive (always on) |
| [7:49] | Tao Takashi: | I want the teleport home keystroke disabled, please ;-) |
| [7:49] | Zero Linden: | b) since there is little restriction - people don't think twice about having very prim intensive attachements |
| [7:50] | Zero Linden: | at least not hte same way they think about prim intensive objects |
| [7:50] | Zero Linden: | Tao - edit the XML files. |
| [7:50] | Benja Kepler: | yes, high heels and prim skirts must have a lot of prims |
| [7:50] | Tao Takashi: | I guess I need to do that with every release? :) |
| [7:50] | Rex Cronon: | u forget about hair |
| [7:50] | Zero Linden: | I noticed that the shoes my Alt wears have 68 prims apiece! |
| [7:50] | Benja Kepler: | yes! hair too |
| [7:51] | Tao Takashi: | it might be nice to have some sort of metric for each avatar so I can look at how "Bad" I am and maybe adjust |
| [7:51] | Tao Takashi: | most likely "remove" ;-) |
| [7:51] | Tree Kyomoon gave you history of the lindex by Lawrence Linden/Peter Millionsofus. | |
| [7:51] | Benja Kepler: | how do you count the prims on an av Tao? |
| [7:51] | Tao Takashi: | thanks, Tree |
| [7:51] | Rex Cronon: | with sculpts would be possible to have shoes of ony 1 prim, if the image wasn't compress that is:( |
| [7:51] | Tao Takashi: | some sort of metric can also be some lag factor however it's generated.. I know it's not easy to come up with a good metric I suppose |
| [7:52] | Harleen Gretzky: | In estate tools, if the avatar is sitting on something the script time is reflected in that object for the avatar and all it's attachments |
| [7:52] | Rex Cronon: | thanks tree |
| [7:52] | Tao Takashi: | but right now lag is more a blurry thing than one with facts I think |
| [7:52] | Wyn Galbraith: | Thanks Tree. |
| [7:52] | Zero Linden: | Yes - that is indeed the problem - capturing "lag" into a single number that people can use to judge is, well, totally unclear how to do |
| [7:52] | Tree Kyomoon: | ..catching up on conversation history... |
| [7:52] | Tao Takashi: | so everybody has their own assumption about what causes lag |
| [7:52] | Zha Ewry nods "I am often surprised, how unpreictabel lag is" | |
| [7:52] | Tao Takashi: | somebody should do a master thesis on that ;_) |
| [7:53] | Tao Takashi: | instead of researching how SL affects companies etc. |
| [7:53] | Zero Linden: | I'd give 'em a PhD. |
| [7:53] | Tao Takashi: | so you cannot say how much rendering time each av takes? |
| [7:54] | Zero Linden: | So - the sad news, I'm sure you've all seen, is that the dia de la liberactión is delayed |
| [7:54] | Tao Takashi: | of course it depends on the machine but it should be at least relative to each other |
| [7:54] | Zero Linden: | Tao - it changes even as you move your camera around teh AV |
| [7:54] | Zha Ewry nods sadly.. and you decied not to do a major update on the 4th? :-) | |
| [7:54] | Zero Linden: | there is no single number |
| [7:54] | Tao Takashi: | yes, we've seen |
| [7:54] | Tao Takashi: | ah, right, too bad |
| [7:54] | Zero Linden: | Zha - exactly |
| [7:54] | Benja Kepler: | oh, you wanted fireworks on the 4th July? |
| [7:54] | Zha Ewry: | In spite of the imagery :-) |
| [7:54] | Zero Linden: | There were two problems in the final merged candidate for 1.18 - neither seems to be message liberation specific, |
| [7:55] | Tao Takashi: | now they do it friday ;-) |
| [7:55] | Rex Cronon: | the revolution got delayed due to lag:) |
| [7:55] | Zero Linden: | but we aren't sure if it was just merge fu - or some bad interaction between some small fixes and the larger mesage liberation code |
| [7:55] | Zero Linden: | no no - never a Friday release |
| [7:55] | Zero Linden: | I don't want my weekends - or all of your weekends - clobbered |
| [7:55] | Tao Takashi: | well, better to hold it off to be sure instead of saying "YAY, we have liberation" (which only few people understand anyway) and then everything is unstable |
| [7:56] | Zero Linden: | In this case, it was only e-mail to objects, and the dreaded friends list |
| [7:56] | Wyn Galbraith: | Thanks Zero :D |
| [7:56] | Zero Linden: | the later *seems* worse in the 1.18 tree - though by *worse* I mean we ahve 100% repro. case now |
| [7:56] | Zha Ewry: | Oh. Ick. Friends is really unpopular |
| [7:57] | Tao Takashi: | just remove the friends feature ;-) |
| [7:57] | Zero Linden: | which is great - since we are geeting some deeeeeeeep debuging on what is going on when the freinds list fails |
| [7:57] | Zha Ewry: | Breaking friends messes with the social fabric, and ticks people off |
| [7:57] | Tree Kyomoon: | I have a question about cookies in a recent release...did it end up happening? |
| [7:57] | Tao Takashi: | ah, repro is good |
| [7:57] | Benja Kepler: | people get hurt when the friends list goes awry - paranoia is a key feature in SL |
| [7:57] | Zero Linden: | Indeed - if we got rid of friends, then SL would be more like VRML - a nice aseptic world where no other people interrupte your solitude |
| [7:57] | Tao Takashi: | only random people ;-) |
| [7:58] | Zero Linden: | Tree- cookies? |
| [7:58] | Tao Takashi: | somebody might write an external friends application ;-) |
| [7:58] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes browser |
| [7:58] | Zha Ewry: | And.. people you skype to tell where you are |
| [7:58] | Wyn Galbraith notes that random people do that now. | |
| [7:58] | Zero Linden: | Oh - was the built in browser now supposed to support cookies? I don't know about that |
| [7:58] | Zha Ewry: | Tho, at that point the answer my read "Darnassus, trainging up my druid" |
| [7:58] | Tree Kyomoon: | thought it was...but my experiments so far are not yielding positive results |
| [7:58] | Tao Takashi misses cookies at office hours anyway | |
| [7:59] | Tree Kyomoon: | unable to keep autheticatino |
| [7:59] | Zero Linden: | I'm sorry, how rude of me |
| [7:59] | Zero Linden: | Sushi? |
| [7:59] | Tree Kyomoon: | lol yummy |
| [7:59] | Tao Takashi: | oh, thanks :) |
| [7:59] | Tree Kyomoon: | im on a diet :) |
| [7:59] | Tao Takashi will build cookies for the next office hour :) | |
| [7:59] | Zero Linden rezs suschi | |
| [7:59] | Wyn Galbraith: | Yes! Yusan's in East Bay is the best. Created the California Roll he did. |
| [8:01] | Zero Linden: | Well - answer me this, if you had some form of external IM connection to SL - what form would it take? |
| [8:01] | Benja Kepler: | sms text messaging would be so useful |
| [8:01] | Tao Takashi: | so what does day of liberation mean for libsl or similar apps (e.g. for my start of a python port). Can I get rid of that UDP stuff and just use HTTP then? as I haven't started yet on the networking code but only on the template building stuff that migth be handy |
| [8:01] | Tree Kyomoon: | GAIM or "Pidgeon" ...something universal |
| [8:01] | Zero Linden: | Tao - no, sigh, libsl will have support UDP for quite a long time |
| [8:01] | Tao Takashi: | and I did not get the hash stuff to work actually |
| [8:02] | Zha Ewry: | Link it to one of the popular clients, so I can blip people with a "Gonna be 15 minutes late to the meeting" from outside.. and my cell phone. Want to be able to have my sell phone text a quick "Late" message |
| [8:02] | Zero Linden: | BUT - the message numbering and packing changed |
| [8:02] | Tao Takashi: | too bad, I was hoping I could continue with it :) |
| [8:02] | Zero Linden: | to something that doesn't change all the time |
| [8:02] | Tao Takashi: | as I did not really understand the hashing stuff there |
| [8:02] | Zero Linden: | ordering now matches the template |
| [8:02] | Tao Takashi: | and I did not yield the same results as libsl or SL |
| [8:02] | Wyn Galbraith: | I get AIM on my cell phone. That would be handy. |
| [8:02] | Tao Takashi: | ah, so I don't need it anymore? |
| [8:02] | Zero Linden: | Tao - I don't think ANYONE understood the hashing stuff there |
| [8:03] | Zero Linden: | right - things are now packed in order of the template - and the message numbers are specified in the template and cannot change |
| [8:03] | Tao Takashi: | so it will be the networking code I should have a look at and all the retry etc. stuff |
| [8:03] | Tree Kyomoon: | would be great if you could chat with your SL friends outside of SL and chat with your non SL freinds inside SL |
| [8:03] | Tao Takashi: | that sounds good, Zero |
| [8:03] | Tao Takashi: | should I have some time maybe I will keep working on it |
| [8:04] | Tao Takashi: | but I guess I have to implement the XML stuff then, too |
| [8:04] | Tao Takashi: | (which shouldn't be as problematic as the UDP stuff) |
| [8:04] | Zero Linden: | Tree - does that mean chat to AIM from SL, for example? What would you expect your name on AIM to be? A special account on AIM you create for your SL identity, or would you want it bridged to your "real" AIM, or just appear on AIM as your SL identity? |
| [8:04] | Benja Kepler: | it would have to be the SL identity |
| [8:04] | Zero Linden: | Tao - no the LLSD path for messages is very easy |
| [8:04] | Tao Takashi: | wasn't Jabber discussed at some point? |
| [8:04] | Wyn Galbraith: | That sounds good Zero.. |
| [8:04] | Zero Linden: | Tao - in the abstract, not like we have a project to do it |
| [8:04] | Tree Kyomoon: | bridged, so SL would be another separate account like your AIM or iChat or whatever |
| [8:04] | Benja Kepler: | and for real Friends, you wouldn't object to paying for such a link |
| [8:05] | Tree Kyomoon: | I have them all in Pidgeon anyway |
| [8:05] | Zha Ewry: | Has to map to SL.. Could bridge.. but I don't pass my RL name to people easily |
| [8:05] | Wyn Galbraith: | Most of my non-SL friends know about my SL name. |
| [8:05] | Tao Takashi: | with plugins it would be easy to just have an AIM plugin ;-) |
| [8:05] | Zha Ewry: | Its not transiitive tho |
| [8:05] | Zha Ewry: | RL friends know my SL name.. but not always the other way around |
| [8:05] | Tao Takashi: | but I understand that plugins are not the way to go right now |
| [8:05] | Rex Cronon: | how about a nice little applet that would allow people to connect to sl from their cell, no 3d rendering though? |
| [8:05] | Wyn Galbraith: | Doesn't have to be AIM, personally I use Trillian and have a lot of IMs. |
| [8:05] | Tao Takashi: | I have a problem with my many names now anyway, thanks to SL |
| [8:05] | Benja Kepler: | especially when transatlantic friendships mean timezone problems to logging in to SL |
| [8:06] | Tao Takashi: | wish I had a free choice of name |
| [8:06] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes, I would prefer to use my RL name in SL |
| [8:06] | Tree Kyomoon: | wish I could |
| [8:06] | Tao Takashi: | well, now it's too late for me anyway ;-) |
| [8:06] | Zero Linden: | Seems that people in general, both dislike having so many acount identities, and yet get along with all just fine |
| [8:06] | Tao Takashi: | Tao sort of became some sort of brand |
| [8:06] | Benja Kepler: | perhaps a 'will' feature could be added so your SL could die and bequeathe its inventory to an alt |
| [8:07] | Tao Takashi: | well, I need to get along with it or give up something |
| [8:07] | Tao Takashi: | but I now have 3 business cards ;-) |
| [8:07] | Zero Linden: | Benja - now THERE'S a novel idea! |
| [8:07] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes benja |
| [8:07] | Zha Ewry: | I think it depends on the way you approach your SL identity. Some people are extentionalists. Just an extension of thier RL self |
| [8:07] | Tao Takashi: | this was discussed at Robin's hour once I think |
| [8:07] | Tao Takashi: | or something similar |
| [8:07] | Tao Takashi: | well, if name choosing would be open then everybody could decide what to do |
| [8:07] | Zha Ewry: | Otheres, are roleplaying immmersives.. and everytrhing in between. That impacts, dramatically, how peopel think abotu names |
| [8:08] | Zero Linden: | Realize that there is quite a movement in internet development circles around internet identity |
| [8:08] | Zero Linden: | Alas, there are several semi-compeating, semi-cooperating standards, which make things VERY confusing |
| [8:08] | Tao Takashi: | and if that interview with Philip in the german magazine is true then we will get identity verification from the beginning anyway |
| [8:08] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes, zero, your internet identity is rapidly overtaking your real one in very tangible ways |
| [8:08] | Rex Cronon: | alond with identity comes identity theft:( |
| [8:08] | Zha Ewry: | And.. It would still be odd.. because. you'd get the same effects, when people chose, and... you'd get to police the stuff ever so much more Now, at least, LL |
| [8:09] | Zero Linden: | The good news, is that those standards are all very aware of the need to let people be in control of what they release to whom |
| [8:09] | Zha Ewry: | has some assurances that they won't be getting *too* much name snagging |
| [8:09] | Zero Linden: | So that plays well with our philosophy of how we think about identity |
| [8:09] | Harleen Gretzky: | Cost money, but LL we give you your RL name in SL if you request it |
| [8:09] | Tao Takashi: | yes, but the money thing is a hurdle |
| [8:09] | Tree Kyomoon: | so why the resistance to allowing people to choose their own names? |
| [8:09] | Tao Takashi: | and I am not sure it's a business model which makes LL rich |
| [8:10] | Tao Takashi: | all of that is not really a technical issue anyway ;-) |
| [8:10] | Rex Cronon: | in rl there are quite a few people that have the same name |
| [8:10] | Zero Linden: | There are quite a number of forces in the issues around name selection. As an engineer, I won't pretend to understand them or to have |
| [8:10] | Tao Takashi: | actually only in SL ;-) |
| [8:10] | Zero Linden: | seen the balance among them.... That would be more of a discssion for Robin's or Daniel's office hours |
| [8:11] | Tao Takashi: | every other application I know lets me choose my name |
| [8:11] | Tree Kyomoon: | ...so its not a technical issue, such as database limitation |
| [8:11] | Zero Linden: | Tree - actually, short term it is - your last name is an integer ID into the last name table |
| [8:11] | Tao Takashi: | and now I am Tao Takashi on face book and my Plone friends ask me "why the funny name" |
| [8:11] | Tao Takashi: | (if they recognize me) |
| [8:11] | Zero Linden: | so adding arbitrary last names puts more strain on the system.... |
| [8:11] | Tao Takashi: | is there a reason toi have it a separate table? |
| [8:12] | Tao Takashi: | except history |
| [8:12] | Benja Kepler: | I think there are 4000 ish last names at the moment |
| [8:12] | Tree Kyomoon: | but even 1 million names is only 1MB |
| [8:12] | Tao Takashi: | is there something else joined with that table? |
| [8:12] | Benja Kepler: | BTW how does Moopf Murray get his avatar key list? |
| [8:12] | Zero Linden: | But here's the thing - while every web site in creation lets you choose a "handle" - usually one word, not two - |
| [8:12] | Zero Linden: | sometimes the one you want isn't available |
| [8:12] | Zero Linden: | or they force them to be in the form of an e-mail address |
| [8:12] | Zero Linden: | or they don't have the same case rules |
| [8:13] | Zero Linden: | or special cahracter rules etc..... |
| [8:13] | Tao Takashi: | in SL I first need to think about a good name combination though because I don't find most of the last names very compelling |
| [8:13] | Wyn Galbraith is fortunate that her usual 'handle' isn't a usual one. | |
| [8:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | right...so a last name is a way to keep names unique... |
| [8:13] | Tao Takashi: | and honestly I'd also like to have people with the same name in SL like in RL |
| [8:13] | Zero Linden: | And so, these are, while visually similar or the same, really different identities |
| [8:13] | Tao Takashi: | maybe distinguished by a login handle |
| [8:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | would be cool then, if I could just display my last name integer rather than the word |
| [8:13] | Tao Takashi: | of course it has issues |
| [8:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | if I wanted |
| [8:14] | Zero Linden: | Identity, in the internet sense, means being about to use the *same* identity in a multitude of places |
| [8:14] | Zero Linden: | or to have several, linked identities, using which one you want in a given circumstance |
| [8:14] | Zha Ewry nods at the latter suggestion | |
| [8:14] | Zero Linden: | So the whole "my RL's know my SL, but my SL's don't kno wmy RL" thing |
| [8:14] | Tree Kyomoon: | identity is extremely important and valuable, it needs to be formost ... thats why facebook and myspace do so well |
| [8:14] | Zero Linden: | is only getting more complicated! |
| [8:15] | Tree Kyomoon: | people should be able to have one identity/brand across all platforms if they want |
| [8:15] | Zero Linden: | So - we are looking at these technical issues |
| [8:15] | Zero Linden: | would it be useful to be able to leave a comment on a wordpress blog from your SL identity? |
| [8:16] | Tao Takashi: | depends on the blog ;_) |
| [8:16] | Tao Takashi: | as I said I now have many identities unfortunately |
| [8:16] | Tao Takashi: | so on german blogs I sign with MrTopf and on SL blogs with Tao Takashi |
| [8:16] | Wyn Galbraith: | I do too, though most have a root to my original gaming/onine name. |
| [8:17] | Tao Takashi: | and unfortunately many web2.0 apps don't have an SL name field yet |
| [8:17] | Tao Takashi: | so people get confused |
| [8:17] | Wyn Galbraith: | *online |
| [8:17] | Benja Kepler: | being logged into your own wordpress blog impacts on the LL blog - unless you log out - I had a comment held awaiting moderation because I changed my own blog profile |
| [8:17] | Tao Takashi: | yes, the login on wordpress is also annoying.. also have to log out to change it |
| [8:17] | Zero Linden: | Well, one might - I have several - the name I use in personal connections (like when I edit Sensei's Library wiki) - the name you all know me as - which I use for business |
| [8:18] | Tao Takashi: | I'd actually like to have some sort of central service which defines my nicknames and (more important) my friends in all my networks |
| [8:18] | Tao Takashi: | like adding all the friends again and again is annoying |
| [8:18] | Wyn Galbraith: | Sounds like a new online business ;) |
| [8:18] | Benja Kepler: | I use a virtual PC for logins to Benja-related blogs and email |
| [8:18] | Zero Linden: | well, that is exactly the sort of things these internet identity systems are reaching for |
| [8:18] | Zero Linden: | see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID |
| [8:19] | Tao Takashi: | but not my friends I think |
| [8:19] | Tao Takashi: | like on facebook I had to add 40 people or so.. which is a bit annoying ;-) |
| [8:19] | Tao Takashi: | all the new apps every day are annoying anyway ;-) |
| [8:19] | Tao Takashi: | and soon we will have a virtual world every day I suppose |
| [8:19] | Benja Kepler: | the mozilla browser in the sl viewer: is it just for the profile web page? or is there more ? |
| [8:19] | Tao Takashi: | which adds avatar customization to the task list |
| [8:20] | Tree Kyomoon: | I believe all the http functionality in the client runs through the mozilla browser |
| [8:20] | Tao Takashi: | so will SL get openid support? :) |
| [8:20] | Zero Linden: | Tree - it does not |
| [8:21] | Benja Kepler: | llHttpRequest? |
| [8:21] | Zero Linden: | Mozilla in the browser is sort of building block |
| [8:21] | Zero Linden: | right now we use it for: The login screen, the profile pages, help, and release notes |
| [8:21] | Benja Kepler: | oh yes! and the LSL wiki help which is VERY USEFUL |
| [8:21] | Zero Linden: | HTTP client operations in the viewer are handled by libcurl |
| [8:22] | Zero Linden: | HTTP client operations in the simulator are also done by libcurl |
| [8:22] | Harleen Gretzky: | Gwyneth Llewelyn and SignpostMarv Martin have started http://SLOpenID.net |
| [8:22] | Zero Linden: | HTTP server operations are done by our own, C++ web server framework |
| [8:22] | Zero Linden: | llHTTPRequest is an LSL call that runs in the simulator, and uses libcurl todo the work |
| [8:23] | Benja Kepler: | how about email, is that a daemon in the sim? |
| [8:24] | Tree Kyomoon: | ahh |
| [8:24] | Tree Kyomoon: | so if the mozilla browser supports cookies, that doesnt mean libcurl does |
| [8:24] | Zero Linden: | email out is just - postfix |
| [8:24] | Tao Takashi: | with libcurl you'd need to handle it yourself I guess |
| [8:25] | Zero Linden: | email in, comes into a postfix server and then gets sent off to a "mailglue" script that injects the mail directly to the simulator where the object no resides |
| [8:25] | Zero Linden: | Tree - libcurl does support cookies - but we don't enable it |
| [8:26] | Zero Linden: | I don't think mozilla is using libcurl to be an HTTP client, mind you |
| [8:26] | Zero Linden: | so I think those or totally separate issues |
| [8:26] | Tree Kyomoon: | right so I need you to allow it |
| [8:26] | Tree Kyomoon: | but you wont? |
| [8:27] | Zero Linden: | well - cookies are to be kept together for one user agent |
| [8:27] | Zero Linden: | but in the simulator - what constitutes a user? |
| [8:27] | Zero Linden: | should each script have it's own cookies? |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | each prim? |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | each linkset? |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | each user per region? |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | each user grid wide? |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | each parcel? |
| [8:28] | Tree Kyomoon: | those sound like parameters of a method |
| [8:28] | Tree Kyomoon: | let the scripter decide :) |
| [8:28] | Rex Cronon: | each key |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | Well - "all of the above" is the least desirable answer! |
| [8:28] | Zero Linden: | Rex - key? |
| [8:28] | Tree Kyomoon: | makes sense to attach them to the response key |
| [8:29] | Rex Cronon: | uuid |
| [8:29] | Tree Kyomoon: | which would be script specific |
| [8:29] | Sridhar Shepherd: | hi all |
| [8:29] | Rex Cronon: | hi |
| [8:29] | Sridhar Shepherd: | what'is the topic |
| [8:29] | Zero Linden: | No, it doesn't - each individual request is a key - cookies are only useful if you replay them on subsquence request - unless you are trying to pawn all cookie managment off on the LSL scripts themselves |
| [8:29] | Tree Kyomoon: | right |
| [8:30] | Zero Linden: | Sridhar - not topic for this session |
| [8:30] | Tree Kyomoon: | so per object mabey makes more sense? |
| [8:30] | Rex Cronon: | i guess only scripted objects |
| [8:30] | Benja Kepler: | so the cookies in the sl viewer are just for state management? |
| [8:30] | Zha Ewry: | You don't want to manage cookies in LSL if you can avoid it |
| [8:30] | Zero Linden: | Well - you can see where the problems start to multiple with cookies - how much cookie storae should we allow? etc... etc.... |
| [8:30] | Tree Kyomoon: | thiking in terms of making a "login" object that allows folks to come to a sim and log into an external app and interact with it while in proximity of that object |
| [8:31] | Zero Linden: | There are no cookies in the SL viewer - other than what mozilla does |
| [8:31] | Zero Linden: | but there, that is viewer side, and so it is for the viewer as a whole |
| [8:31] | Zero Linden: | thogh I don't know how or if we handle different users using the same viewer and cookies in mozilla |
| [8:31] | Tree Kyomoon: | well you cache objects right? |
| [8:31] | Tree Kyomoon: | and textures...so why not cookies? |
| [8:32] | Benja Kepler: | yes, why a separate Clear Cookies button, when Cache can be reset? |
| [8:32] | Zero Linden: | Again - are we talking viewer cookie caching? or server side via llHTTPRequest |
| [8:32] | Tree Kyomoon: | cookies generally would only need to persist for a typical session length, a few hours at most |
| [8:33] | Zero Linden: | viewer side - sure, the built in mozilla should cache cookies |
| [8:33] | Tree Kyomoon: | probably viewer side |
| [8:33] | Zero Linden: | server side - much harder problem as the resources could be considerable |
| [8:33] | Tree Kyomoon: | like a web browser works |
| [8:33] | Tree Kyomoon: | definitely client side |
| [8:33] | Benja Kepler: | the viewer has a clear cookie option, why put it in ? are they written to disk in a separate area to the cache? |
| [8:34] | Zero Linden: | ah yes - I see it now |
| [8:34] | Tree Kyomoon: | sorry to be a pain about this but its a huge issue for me |
| [8:34] | Zero Linden: | it is a separate thing as the mozilla framework manages all of it's own caching - including cookies, totally apart from the rest of the viewer |
| [8:35] | Zero Linden: | Tree - so seems to me that the mozilla browser in the viewer DOES support cookies |
| [8:35] | Tree Kyomoon: | but how do I get to the mozilla browser via httprequest? |
| [8:35] | Tree Kyomoon: | can I run requests through it vs libcurl |
| [8:35] | Zero Linden: | you can't - when you call llHTTPRequest you are asking the simulator to make a request on your behalf, not the viewer |
| [8:35] | Rex Cronon: | so could scripts hava access to that? |
| [8:36] | Saijanai Kuhn: | so still not sure when the Mozillz framework is evoked |
| [8:36] | Zero Linden: | So - cookies on the sim are a totally different matter- since, as Zha pointed out, you really don't want ot do cookie management in LSL |
| [8:36] | Tree Kyomoon: | hmm so could I change that and make the request via mozilla somehow? |
| [8:36] | Zero Linden: | and, attaching cookie state per object would be a considerable burden in memory |
| [8:36] | Tree Kyomoon: | you would have to implement some client only http request method |
| [8:36] | Zero Linden: | I dont see llHTTPRequest supporting cookies anytime soon |
| [8:37] | Zero Linden: | Tree - no there is no mozilla in the server |
| [8:37] | Tree Kyomoon: | I know |
| [8:37] | Tree Kyomoon: | Im talking making the mozilla in the client accessible via script |
| [8:37] | Zero Linden: | there has been talk about a llHTTPViewerRequest that makes the request come from an agent's viewer - but that has giant security implications |
| [8:37] | Zero Linden: | and would be very compilcated system |
| [8:37] | Saijanai Kuhn: | when IS it accessable BTW? |
| [8:37] | Zero Linden: | AH |
| [8:38] | Zero Linden: | you want llLoadURLintoViewerMozilla |
| [8:38] | Zero Linden: | or some such |
| [8:38] | Zero Linden: | AHA |
| [8:38] | Zero Linden: | THAT is something I think we should do ... but I don't know if anyone has picked it up and put it on their plate |
| [8:38] | Benja Kepler: | any news on the 'web page on a prim'? |
| [8:38] | Tree Kyomoon: | sounds interesting |
| [8:39] | Zero Linden: | I wonder - would just having the blue box that appears when you use llLoadURL() give the user two options: open in viewer, open in browser, be enough? |
| [8:39] | Tree Kyomoon: | should I add that to jira or ? |
| [8:39] | Zero Linden: | yes |
| [8:39] | Zero Linden: | and, as always, please try to be clear about the use case |
| [8:39] | Zero Linden: | (i know, i know, my pet peeve) |
| [8:40] | Tree Kyomoon: | absolutely |
| [8:40] | Saijanai Kuhn: | 2 options with a check box for "don't ask me again" |
| [8:40] | Benja Kepler: | open in viewer would be great - keeps it in SL - otherwise why not just google outside of sl? |
| [8:40] | Zero Linden: | Someone put that into the public JIRA as well! |
| [8:40] | Tree Kyomoon: | the thing for me is, I dont want to open it, I just want to send messages back and forth |
| [8:40] | Tree Kyomoon: | to a url |
| [8:41] | Zero Linden: | Benja - realize that these URLs could include things like aganet name or key - and so, by doing this, you can link SL to the web more closely |
| [8:41] | Zero Linden: | Tree - that the harder case because of the security issues |
| [8:41] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes :) |
| [8:41] | Zero Linden: | so - all good |
| [8:41] | Benja Kepler: | yes, I wrote a blogging script - taht used email to blog |
| [8:41] | Zero Linden: | okay friends, an hour has flow by.... |
| [8:42] | Wyn Galbraith: | Wow already, I'm hungry for sushi now too. |
| [8:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | someone pointed out that webpage on a prim would allow people to correlate avatars with ips addresses |
| [8:42] | Zero Linden: | until next time..... |
| [8:42] | Benja Kepler: | ok, thanks Zero - very interesting |
| [8:42] | Zero Linden: | thanks all for coming |
| [8:42] | Rex Cronon: | bye zero |
| [8:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | take care |
| [8:42] | Tree Kyomoon: | thanks for being here zero |
| [8:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | and hello all |
| [8:42] | Wyn Galbraith: | Thanks for the meeting Zero, have a great day. |