User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 04

[7:26] JayR Cela: pardon me ??
[7:26] JayR Cela: is my hair missing ?
[7:26] Zha Ewry: nods
[7:26] Zha Ewry: Annie Lenox effect
[7:26] JayR Cela: lol
[7:26] Zha Ewry: Especially with the sort of sharp edged business look
[7:27] Zha Ewry: is feeling very 70s this morning
[7:27] JayR Cela: hey there Tree
[7:27] JayR Cela: brb
[7:27] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[7:27] Neas Bade: morning tree
[7:27] Tree Kyomoon: hello Neas, Morgain, Zha and Khamon!
[7:28] Morgaine Dinova: Hey, Kham's here, that;s nice :-)
[7:28] Zeina Zehetbauer: Hi everyone!...
[7:28] Tree Kyomoon: Hello Zeina!
[7:28] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning, 'evening. etc.... hi folks :-)
[7:28] Zeina Zehetbauer: Does Zero arrive on time normally?
[7:28] Zha Ewry: Within 5-10 minutes
[7:28] Zha Ewry: Generally within 5
[7:29] Zha Ewry: But.. we may get a pinch hitter today
[7:29] Morgaine Dinova: Hooray, the only fem-compliant seat is free, the leftmost one.
[7:29] Tree Kyomoon: you mean 'skirt friendly' ?
[7:30] Zha Ewry: Oh, I find this one is fine, Morgaine, as long as I remeber to skip the skirt
[7:30] Zha Ewry: Actually, kind of a comfy pose
[7:30] Zeina Zehetbauer: Ha ha... I don't wear many skirts... You had me worried before I understood your question...
[7:30] Tree Kyomoon: always shows up naked ;0
[7:30] Zeina Zehetbauer: laughs...
[7:30] Zha Ewry: Clothing really drapes poorly on Tree.
[7:30] Zha Ewry: So hollow chested
[7:31] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[7:31] Tree Kyomoon: yes it rough being a model :)
[7:31] Zha Ewry: Hulloa Rex
[7:31] JayR Cela: hey there rex
[7:31] Zha Ewry: Ah.
[7:31] Zha Ewry: Is that what did you in, one too many modeling sessions?
[7:31] Rex Cronon: hi...
[7:31] Tillie Ariantho: Hey! :)
[7:31] Rex Cronon: has anybody here been to the havok4 office hours?
[7:31] Tree Kyomoon: yes. I'll Probably end up on "the surreal life"
[7:32] Rex Cronon: hi
[7:32] Tree Kyomoon: hello rex!
[7:32] Tillie Ariantho: ao off
[7:33] Zha Ewry: Oooho Inbound Zero
[7:33] Morgaine Dinova: Zero is actua.ly probably a lady .. as he's always fashionably late :-))))
[7:33] Tree Kyomoon: aha we get the real mccoy today :)
[7:33] Tillie Ariantho: incomiiiiiiiiiing! .P
[7:33] Zha Ewry: Newp
[7:33] Zero Linden: Sorry- I'm not that mysterious!
[7:33] Morgaine Dinova: Wb Zero. You've been missed :-)
[7:33] Rex Cronon: hello zero
[7:33] Zha Ewry: RL, Zero is not shocking differen from his Ave
[7:33] JayR Cela: hello there Zero
[7:34] Neas Bade: morning zero
[7:34] Tree Kyomoon: yes, I did post the last transcript to your office hours page...hope that was OK
[7:34] Tillie Ariantho: Not? He should eat a bit more, then. .)
[7:34] Zha Ewry: Morning, Morning
[7:34] Zha Ewry: He even pushed the peantud M&Ms away eventuially
[7:34] Zero Linden: No, like most people, my AV reflects my desired weight....
[7:34] Tillie Ariantho: What!
[7:34] Morgaine Dinova: Uh oh, all the seats on Zero's favourite sofa are takem, hope he's not annoyed ...
[7:35] Zeina Zehetbauer: Hi Tree... This is my first time attending your office hours... How do the sessions normally proceed...
[7:35] Zeina Zehetbauer: I just had one or two specific questions?
[7:35] Zha Ewry: Linden Got many, many points for Dreid Fruits as well as Chocolate
[7:35] Zero Linden: Well, here's the deail - we usually don't have specific topics
[7:35] Tree Kyomoon: fire away Zeina :)
[7:35] Zero Linden: but we try to keep things as discussions,
[7:35] Zha Ewry: I have one anti topic today
[7:35] Zeina Zehetbauer: Oh.. That's so nice...
[7:35] Zeina Zehetbauer: Thanks...
[7:36] Zeina Zehetbauer: I came because Teeple suggested that I talk to Zero...
[7:36] Zero Linden: so, let me know the areas you'd like to dicuss and I'll try to make them fit in!
[7:36] Morgaine Dinova: I would like to suggest that we don't fire any topics ... Zero's been MIA so long that I suggest he does a recap :-)
[7:36] Zeina Zehetbauer: I'm with SLNN, the SL Net NEws...
[7:36] Zero Linden: One! One meeting I missed
[7:36] Tree Kyomoon: lol
[7:36] Zeina Zehetbauer: Had a question about whether LL had ever considered multiple billing cycles for stipends...
[7:36] Morgaine Dinova: One meeting is infinity, in AWG groupies think time :-)
[7:36] Zeina Zehetbauer: I'm doing a story on stipend issues...
[7:36] JayR Cela: quick some body tie Zero to his chair for the next 2 hours / LOL :_)
[7:37] Morgaine Dinova: looks around for shackles
[7:37] Zero Linden: Ah, well, Zeina - my role at LL is in systems architecture and platform development
[7:37] Rex Cronon: no. u just need to lag the sim so he can't tp out:)
[7:37] Zha Ewry: Just keep his RL coffee mug tied to his right hand. He'll stay
[7:37] Zero Linden: so, first, I'd have to say, that I'm not going to be an authority on thinks like billing cycles
[7:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha Rex :-)
[7:38] Morgaine Dinova: Aye. This is about arch. And tech arch only.
[7:38] Zeina Zehetbauer: Okay... but I can't seem to find anyone who feels they know enough about the issues...
[7:38] Zeina Zehetbauer: But have you heard whether LL is considering somethign like that?
[7:38] Zero Linden: You are asking if LL ever considered running stipends and/or billing on staggered dates for fractions of customers?
[7:39] Zeina Zehetbauer: Yes.. exactly.. .telephone companies do it, cc companies too?
[7:39] JayR Cela: Zeina I have a partial list of linden office hours and the areas of expertise / I will give you a copy
[7:39] Morgaine Dinova: I recommend an indirection to someone else's Office Hours on that topic.
[7:39] Zero Linden: No, Zeina, I haven't heard that.... but to be honest for all I know, we might have in the past, or might choose to do it in the future
[7:39] Zeina Zehetbauer: Thanks JayR... That's great!
[7:39] Neas Bade: agreed. I'd like to stay on tech topics here
[7:39] Zero Linden: Ineed, running the big accounting scripts can be a large hit on the databases
[7:39] Zero Linden: Right
[7:40] Morgaine Dinova: So, Zero. how goes? :-)))))
[7:40] Zero Linden: agreed too - but since I usually wait about 10 min. for folks, I felt I could get this in insorfar as I had a tech response!
[7:40] Zha Ewry: So, Zero when can we abuse you on the Wiki as well as office hours?/
[7:40] Zero Linden: Very soon
[7:40] Zero Linden: Well, let's see
[7:40] Zha Ewry: grins
[7:40] JayR Cela: i would like to open discussion on Havoc 4
[7:40] Zha Ewry: Good
[7:40] Zero Linden: what is up with me....
[7:40] Tillie Ariantho: Why that, it's only like 80k paying people, no? You dont have to update the 9 million player accounts. .)
[7:40] Morgaine Dinova: Talk to Cory about Havok 4
[7:41] Tree Kyomoon: or go try it out at the beta grid, I did, it was fun!
[7:41] Rex Cronon: is Sidewinder Linden going to post transcripts of his/hers office hoursr?
[7:41] Zero Linden: Brief re-cap: I was away on a five day business trip discussing how virtual worlds, SL in particular, will affect corporations and organizations
[7:41] Zero Linden: Rex - you'd have to ask Sidewinder!
[7:41] Zha Ewry: shrugs "What a boring topic."
[7:41] Tree Kyomoon: Zero did online training come up?
[7:42] Zha Ewry: blinks "Oh. Wait.
[7:42] Zha Ewry: I work for one of those!"
[7:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: cool. I hope you don't go Cory's way though .... stuck 95% in PR.
[7:42] Tillie Ariantho: Zha: haha :p
[7:42] Zero Linden: Well, Zha, it was really good for me to get into the heads of CFOs / CIOs / CEOs and understand how they
[7:43] Zero Linden: evaluate such radically new technologies
[7:43] Zero Linden: remember - they are a User Story too
[7:43] Zha Ewry: I'm teasing. But. script your gray cells when your done
[7:43] Zha Ewry: Run a cleansing bath or such
[7:43] Zero Linden: Anyhow
[7:43] Zero Linden: Back now
[7:43] Tillie Ariantho: And what are they thinking? "We dont do kids stuff" ? .)
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: Using Sl for e-learning come up?
[7:44] Morgaine Dinova: I like CFOs, CIOs, and CEOs. I make sure I always take a heavy bat along. CTO's are a bit better, so the bat is lighter ... but still there.
[7:44] Zha Ewry: Depends, Tillie. Some of them actually ask good questions
[7:44] Zha Ewry: like "How can I keep my corproate data secure in such environemnts"
[7:44] Tree Kyomoon: they write the cheques
[7:44] Zero Linden: They are thinking that a) SL for distributed teams for meetings would rock, b) that 'neko' avatars are a bit creepy
[7:45] Tillie Ariantho: hehe
[7:45] Morgaine Dinova: I have no subservience to the people who write the cheques. They are dead without the peopel with the tech knowhow. Try to remember that.
[7:45] Zero Linden: They are mulling over the more complicated issue of what does it mean when they are dealing with a digital identity, rather than a customer record
[7:45] Zero Linden: These are clearly different things, and they get that digital identity is coming
[7:46] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: that's covered in the wiki. In a nutshell, RL verif is dead.
[7:46] Zero Linden: Lastly, they are concerned with the realization that social modes of interaction (Facebook, SL, etc...) are going to be people's primary mode of Internet access, not information browsing
[7:46] Zero Linden: they've built their Intenet access on top of information browsing
[7:47] Tree Kyomoon: thats good to know
[7:47] Zha Ewry: listen intently to Zero's last comment
[7:47] Zero Linden: and they will need to shift to build it to work with social internaction
[7:47] Morgaine Dinova: That's true. But we're about to enhave tha5 browsin experience into 3D.
[7:47] Morgaine Dinova: enhance*
[7:47] Zha Ewry: grins "Maybe we can get past the HR people who wanted to build Avatars to match peoples Job Roles"
[7:47] Morgaine Dinova: LOL Zha
[7:48] Tree Kyomoon: morgaine its still 2.5 d, we all look at SL on a flat monitor
[7:48] Zha Ewry: is *SO* not kidding
[7:48] Tree Kyomoon: 3d is still aways off
[7:48] Zero Linden: In otherwords, to tie it back to this group here: They actually get that something like what we're doing, that is turning SL into an Internet Platform, will be primary and very very important
[7:48] Zha Ewry: grins O dpm
[7:48] Zero Linden: Okay, okay, enough of my trip report......
[7:48] Zha Ewry: I don't say that more than ten times a week.
[7:49] Tillie Ariantho: So we have to make it good then. .P
[7:49] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: we look at SL on a flat monitor, but that's not how we experience it (not other 3D worlds). We are IMMERSED. That means our brains turn it into more than just a 2D screen view.
[7:49] Zero Linden: Right Zha - nor do most of us - it was just really cool that when 50 or so senior executives actually spent three days to focus on it - they got it.
[7:49] Zero Linden: Okay
[7:49] Tree Kyomoon: true, but our brains do that with movies and television as well, and we dont consider that 3d...but anyway I digress
[7:49] Zero Linden: I've got a big ass topic
[7:49] Zero Linden: Compatibility
[7:50] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: OK, let;s talk about big asses
[7:50] Zero Linden: I understand that too much stuff broke in the last server release for people
[7:50] Tree Kyomoon: thats a Hugh Jass Topic!
[7:50] Zero Linden: And, I've seen the general freak-out over the viewer-authentication project
[7:50] Zha Ewry: sighs
[7:50] Zha Ewry: And you didn't break much
[7:51] Zha Ewry: Well, the viewer stuff. looks to be more in the bucket of "So, you're making this harder, to get *what* benefit?"
[7:51] Zero Linden: So, the topic isn't the specifics (I understand alot was covered Tuesday by Tess)
[7:51] Zero Linden: What I want to know is this - how do we make this process better
[7:51] Zha Ewry: Ah.. but how you evolve to the next generation without killing the service on the way
[7:51] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: correct. It *IS* a freakout. Because it reduces SL to FL. And that's not what Philip's original vision was about.
[7:52] Tree Kyomoon: would be a good step to enable the "viewer" to become a browser plug in, that is "compatible" with the current internet
[7:52] Gigs Taggart: Zha they did break a lot! After the rolling restart about 20% of the regions didn't come back up for hours... like 3 or 4 hours.
[7:53] Zero Linden: Tree - it is highly unlikely that an application of the size of the SL viewer would work comfortably as a web plug in.
[7:53] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: that wou;d be an appalling step backwards, The last thing we need is more accretion to the monolithic app that is the browser.
[7:53] Khamon Fate: You're asking the wrong people Zero. Most of us would settle for SL 2.0 with no transition from this grid at all.
[7:53] Zero Linden: Gigs - I was referring to functionality and protocol incompatibilities
[7:53] Zha Ewry: Zero, with Het grid up. how hard would it be to always roll out the next spin to about 100 regions first
[7:53] Rex Cronon: that shouldn't b so hard if the viewer was written in java
[7:53] Zero Linden: Really?
[7:53] Khamon Fate: really
[7:53] Zero Linden: Zha - well, we Het Grid comes in three phases:
[7:53] Tree Kyomoon: I disagree, it would open the platform up to a much wider audience and take it out of the "geek" territory
[7:53] Zha Ewry: That was a rolling restart borkage, apparently
[7:54] Khamon Fate: Which rolling restart ha ha
[7:54] Khamon Fate: ?
[7:54] Zero Linden: 1) Be able to run a designated verion on a designated set of sims --- we have this today and it is primarily good for things like Havok 4 and Mono test regions onthe main grid
[7:54] Zha Ewry: The monday one. That's what really killed regions, that and yet more VPN pain
[7:54] Tree Kyomoon: but its ok, if SL doesnt do it, someone else will
[7:54] Zero Linden: 2) Be able to stage deploy out over three days -- this is harder as the shuffling of regions and machines is complicated enough that it can't be done by handle (as in phase 1)
[7:54] Morgaine Dinova: REST is HTTP/1.1 ... if you understand the benefits of REST, then you must agree that Web2.0 is crap, by design.
[7:55] Neas Bade: Morgaine: huh?
[7:55] Zero Linden: so what is waiting is the "coordinator" to get written -- I beleive Tess and folks will be tackling that Q4
[7:55] Khamon Fate: Feel free to set Slate to run the Havok4 server at any point in time. We'll report bugs with nary a complaint.
[7:55] Zero Linden: 3) Enable estate managers to control what version is running on a region/estate
[7:55] Gigs Taggart: If we could not use the "Web 2.0" buzzword we'll probably do better. It means too many things. If you mean AJAX then just say AJAX :)
[7:55] Zha Ewry: Ah.. OK, Zero. Because, I think that's the real way forward
[7:56] Khamon Fate: Are you (LL) going to reduce the complexity of randomly assigning sims to boxes?
[7:56] Zha Ewry: Right now, we find too many "oh, 20% of the regions borked on restart" problems day of
[7:57] Zero Linden: Khamon - well, we still need to treat the boxes as a compute pool and not permanenetly assign a region to a box
[7:57] Tillie Ariantho: Boxes? Haha. "Hey guys, LL assign my sim to a pizza box, now all runs pretty cheesy." .)
[7:57] Zero Linden: And there is some really annoying properites that make the assignment complex:
[7:57] Morgaine Dinova: Khamon: those of us who have an interest in scalability though (which is the whole AWG group), would have no interest in the current SL architecture at all, except in the scene that we must be able to migrate current content to a scalable SL2.
[7:58] Tillie Ariantho: yup
[7:58] Zero Linden: 1) Class of Hardware, 2) Location of Hardware (Dallas vs. SF), 3) Version of Simulator, 4) CPU ratio (1 vs. 1/4 for voids)
[7:58] Khamon Fate: I didn't realize that was a tenet of AWG
[7:58] JayR Cela: Morgaine / excellant point well taken
[7:58] Gigs Taggart: Morgaine, I disagree.
[7:58] Zero Linden: That coupled with running 2 or 4 regions per host really really makes the allocation algorighm complicated
[7:58] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine decrees tenants ;)
[7:59] Khamon Fate: Does the same server version have to run in all simulators hosted on a box?
[7:59] Morgaine Dinova: Tree; if you take the viewer (or anything else) "out of the tech community" then you are back in the trees, and scrubbing in the dirt of food. Techs make this world. Everyone else is a consumer.
[7:59] Zero Linden: Let clarify some aspects of SL today vis-a-vis the AWG and getting to a future SL architecture
[8:00] Tree Kyomoon: the line between dev and consumer isnt that clear Morgaine :)
[8:00] Zero Linden: It is certainly true that most if not all of the API of Second LIfe will be touched by the AWG
[8:00] Zha Ewry: Tree, Morg, can you take that discussion to a quiet sim, later?
[8:00] Tree Kyomoon: apologizes
[8:01] Zha Ewry: blinks "Well, not at first.. but by the end... I don't see how it isn't."
[8:01] Zero Linden: And it is a given that the content of SL as we know it must be part of that new architecture
[8:01] Zero Linden: We could do this different ways
[8:01] Zha Ewry: nods, "SL: as it exists, is roughly, the base use case."
[8:01] Khamon Fate: Content transfer only requires a standard of export and import
[8:02] Zha Ewry: "Have to all of this, and more., better, scallable, more variations"
[8:02] Khamon Fate: Obviously the content will have to be adjusted in "the new world" just as any importation requires
[8:02] Zero Linden: at one extreme there is.... Build the new SL, then on day zero (heh) export the world from old SL, import to new SL and restart...
[8:02] Neas Bade: Khamon I think you under estimate how sensitive scripts and physics are to the environment they are being run in
[8:02] Zha Ewry: nods vigerously in agreement with Neas
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: Agreed Neas, but we'll need to adapt ones that have been assuming all the various workarounds for current limitations, its just unavoidable to an extent
[8:03] Khamon Fate: No, I don't. I think people are being too demanding wanting direct importation without any of the associated tweaking responsibility.
[8:03] Zero Linden: But I'm pretty certain that we'll want to operate much closer to the other side: Design a portion of the new SL. Implement it. Add that into the current grid.
[8:03] Zha Ewry: can't see any other way Zero
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: Zero I totally agree
[8:03] Rex Cronon: anything can be exported, the terrain, the objects, the scripts , the animations...
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: hence compatibility, it will be an excellent test case
[8:03] Zha Ewry: Especialy, as we want to walk both LL's imple and the OpenSim ones along in patallel and together
[8:03] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: nope, I can't, because scaling SL to the Scary Numbers inherently brings about the utter change that I mentioned. Those who feel a structural attachment with the past have a problem. The only attachment to the past that AWG has (by spec) is to be able to *evolve* from SL1 ... not to maintain it.
[8:03] Zero Linden: Khamon - Indeed you are right, which is what pushes us further to the incremental approach
[8:04] Zha Ewry: Morg, by the end of the waltz, every bit gets replaced
[8:04] Zero Linden: But evolve, Morgaine, not import
[8:04] Zha Ewry: Just.. step y step
[8:04] Zha Ewry: &by
[8:04] Zero Linden: likes Zha's waltz metaphore
[8:04] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, evolve.
[8:04] Gigs Taggart: Yes, the temptation to "start over" in software design is a bad one. Ignore it. :)
[8:04] Zha Ewry: The trick, is to not trip up too many dancers at each step
[8:05] Zha Ewry: I mean, at some point, for example, UUIDs will have to vanish
[8:05] Tree Kyomoon: we lose the appendix eventually but it sticks around for quite a while...long enough to get to the point where no one notices it
[8:05] Morgaine Dinova: I dislike Big Bangs. I'm an engineer. Big Bangs are not realistic in the real world.
[8:05] Gigs Taggart: zha?
[8:05] Zha Ewry: As they exist
[8:05] Zha Ewry: They are flat, and imply a single aasset server
[8:05] Rex Cronon: u can't remove uuid
[8:05] Khamon Fate: Evolvesims into Havok4 implementations, iron out the problems, then evolve the grid with us being able to explain to everyone the tweaks and conversions they have to implement for everything to seem the same?
[8:05] Gigs Taggart: never heard of a DHT?
[8:05] Khamon Fate: Is that what you mean?
[8:05] Zero Linden: I think what Zha means is that UUIDs as an identifier will go away
[8:05] Zero Linden: let me be clear
[8:05] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero
[8:05] Tillie Ariantho: Hey Tao! :)
[8:06] Tree Kyomoon: Tao :)
[8:06] Tao Takashi: Hi, little late today.. but all that work..
[8:06] Zero Linden: This is a very important point (should be in the wiki!)
[8:06] Zero Linden: So, consider.
[8:06] Zha Ewry: Right.. But.. When they do.. it has to be done in a way that is stepwise sane
[8:06] Zero Linden: I say, in some argument to some message:
[8:06] Zero Linden: 066fb010-07f3-4682-84ae-f6281396a9a6
[8:06] Zha Ewry: Add new function, slowly take out old function
[8:06] Zero Linden: Do you konw what that is?
[8:06] Zero Linden: Do you know how to get access to it?
[8:07] Khamon Fate: Convert it to a binary representation and reverse the polarity?
[8:07] Zha Ewry: If it isn't somewhat web friendly findable.. it isn't the long term answer
[8:07] Khamon Fate: Totally Zha
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: exactly
[8:07] Zero Linden: some of that context is part of the message - say it was part of:
[8:07] Zha Ewry: Ideally, sch that I can do a very simple http operatoin and get back somethign useful
[8:07] Zero Linden: <key>texture</key><value>066fb010-07f3-4682-84ae-f6281396a9a6</value>
[8:08] Zha Ewry: Closer..
[8:08] Zha Ewry: But.. not enough
[8:08] Zero Linden: (oops, not valid LLSD, bad Zero!)
[8:08] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: any dynamic archtecture is "revolutionary". But I'm interested only in approaches that provide revolutionary improvement through evolutionary change. Throwing assets away is not in my frame of reference.
[8:08] Khamon Fate: Where have I heard this before?
[8:08] Zero Linden: That UUID only has meaning in some context
[8:08] Zero Linden: But you still don't know where this texture is....
[8:08] Zha Ewry: Because I still don't have a context in which to resolve that texture to a service which can fetch it
[8:08] Tree Kyomoon: needs a decoder ring :)
[8:08] Zha Ewry: channels Zero (again)
[8:08] Khamon Fate: Oh Oh This is what Jarod was saying back in the day
[8:08] Zero Linden: but if we instead say:
[8:09] Zero Linden: [1]
[8:09] Zha Ewry: Now.. I'm happy.
[8:09] Zero Linden: NOW you can find out everything there is to know about this thing
[8:09] Zha Ewry: Now I can do a get to find out about it
[8:09] Khamon Fate: Jarod will be happy too. I'm gonna copy this to him.
[8:09] Zha Ewry: Now I can apply the web's tools to secure it
[8:09] Tree Kyomoon: yes, thats the context
[8:09] Zero Linden: So - UUIDs as a common pattern for generating unique identifiers will remain in the architecture
[8:10] Zero Linden: But UUIDs as *the* identifier will have to go
[8:10] Tree Kyomoon: particularly if there is some kind of mime type equivalent
[8:10] Tree Kyomoon: header?
[8:10] Zero Linden: "revolutionary improvement through evolutionary change" - that should be the AWG's motto
[8:10] Gigs Taggart: :)
[8:10] Zha Ewry: And "Follow the Web"
[8:10] Gareth Ellison: hi there
[8:11] Morgaine Dinova: Resource identifiers are required for REST, so they have to stay. There's nothing wrong with SL UUIDs.
[8:11] Tree Kyomoon: rather than "making the grid a scalable place" ?
[8:11] Gareth Ellison: heh, i just tried to sit on zero
[8:11] Gareth Ellison: laggy rezzing
[8:11] Zero Linden: Tree - I think that resource should totally act like a good HTTP/REST citizen - respond to HEAD, support content negotiation, support transfer-encodings etc....
[8:11] Rex Cronon: the problem is that the location of that asseet can change, and when it does all that have the old address have to be updated
[8:11] Neas Bade: a resource identifier is only unique per host
[8:11] Zha Ewry: REST needs them to be web unique
[8:12] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: LOL. Fine by me. I transfer my copyright on the phrase to you (apparently Americans are intersted in copyrights, no idea why)
[8:12] Zha Ewry: And.. We need them to be long term
[8:12] Zero Linden: Tree - perhaps we need a crest wtih laural branches and one emblazoned on the shield, the other in a ribbon banner
[8:12] Tree Kyomoon: classy!
[8:12] Gareth Ellison: anyone willing to IM me with a summary of what i've missed here?
[8:12] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: the middle finger raised on the crest might help too ....
[8:12] Zha Ewry: notes that there is a funny edge case having to do with the fact that current URL bind a litlte hard to servers, but we deal with that all the time via aliasing
[8:12] Gareth Ellison: apologies for the spam
[8:13] Zero Linden: Uhm, let's not be too antagonistic, eh?
[8:13] Tillie Ariantho: Gareth: I think the log will get wikified anyway...
[8:13] Gareth Ellison: i'll just observe then.....
[8:13] Zero Linden: Zha - in a well designed REST system, the style of URLs given out is up to the resource holder
[8:14] Tree Kyomoon: working on a notecard for you gareth
[8:14] Morgaine Dinova: Zero; we aren't antagonistic ... but the SL business community we be vying for our throats. I think we can survive though :-)
[8:14] Zero Linden: In otherwords, when an Agent Domain gives out a texture URL
[8:14] Zero Linden: it gets to decide if it points at some direct server, or if the authority section (the host & port) are generic, pointing to some load balancer
[8:15] Gareth Ellison: question - why not point it at a standard URL format and the first prefix specifies the host and where on the host it lives?
[8:15] Gareth Ellison: so for example you can have a standard /asset/<UUID> URL for assets
[8:15] Zero Linden: Morgaine - that gets back to one of my other things to do this quarter - I'm going to be writing a "white paper" about SLG08 to explain the strategy of what we are doing
[8:15] Gareth Ellison: but the prefix could be [2] or [3]
[8:16] Gareth Ellison: accepted your inventory offer.
[8:16] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: because REST resources don't necessarily correspond to filestore structue.
[8:16] Tree Kyomoon: still doesnt understand how that equates to a mime type..but thats ok
[8:16] Tillie Ariantho: gareth: [8:09
[8:16] Zha Ewry: nods
[8:16] Zha Ewry: Indeed
[8:16] Tillie Ariantho: We had that 1 minuted before you arrived. :)
[8:16] Zero Linden: I realize now that among you all who have gotten to know me over the last year, you all get it in your gut by now
[8:16] Zha Ewry: The only question, is taht we have to be careful about current web assupmtions
[8:16] Zero Linden: the rest of the community needs a little help in seeing it
[8:16] Gareth Ellison: i'll read the notecard before commenting further...
[8:17] Tree Kyomoon: If I can understand it, anyone can :)
[8:17] Zero Linden: Gareth -
[8:17] Neas Bade: tree :)
[8:17] Zero Linden: That is a goind point
[8:17] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I don't know the reference "SLG08" ... my bad. Help?
[8:17] Zero Linden: SLG08 = Second Life Grid 2008
[8:17] JayR Cela: the majority of SL residents don't have a clue as to what we end up discussing here / they just want the platform to work and be stable
[8:17] Neas Bade: I think such a white paper would be great
[8:17] Zero Linden: Ah, right I think we dropped the 08 from it at athe AWG
[8:17] Zero Linden: so I'll say SLG
[8:17] Gareth Ellison: Zero - you agree on that idea about arbitary prefixes?
[8:18] Tree Kyomoon: SLAWG
[8:18] Morgaine Dinova: looks up Google's clairvoyance site ...
[8:18] Tree Kyomoon: its a slog
[8:18] Rex Cronon: so the most important thing is to make sl2.0 REST compatible?
[8:18] Zha Ewry: Well, ignoring people who rant about how changing any tech is going to be some evil plot... Most residents care not about it
[8:18] Zero Linden: Gareth - an http: or https: URL must follow certain forms, and one of them is that the authority section (after the two slashes) MUST be a host and optional port
[8:18] Zha Ewry: As long as it works
[8:18] Gigs Taggart: Rex, no the most important thing is that we can get there incrementally.
[8:19] Tree Kyomoon: if we ever decide to meet in Canada, we could call it Cold SLAWG
[8:19] Zha Ewry: But a host can be a load balancer
[8:19] Zero Linden: In otherwords, you must need nothing other than the URL (and DNS) to find the resource
[8:19] Zero Linden: this why it is a URL, not a URI (L = Locator, I = Identifier)
[8:19] Zha Ewry: Last point being fundamental web behaior
[8:19] Gareth Ellison: heh, i suppose the question of locating which prefix to use is a more complex one than i thought
[8:19] Zha Ewry: I think we should summarize some of the basic stakes in the groun in the Wiki
[8:19] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: very true. But (maybe sadly), AWG is not solving their immediate problems. It's solving the bigger problem 2 years down the line.
[8:20] Gareth Ellison: so standardise all the URLs and only ever swap the hostname and port no....
[8:20] Zha Ewry: Such as "REST, evolve, follow the web... "
[8:20] Zha Ewry: Some are lurking
[8:20] Zero Linden: The generally accepted practice, is that any structure in the URL is totally up to the group that serves the resource
[8:20] Zha Ewry: Wikis stink at ccodifying consensus, but we need to do that
[8:20] Zero Linden: to a client, a user of the URL, the URL should be totally opaque (save, say, adding query arguements)
[8:20] Zha Ewry: (Because wikis don't do good otes, and locking consensus down in a wiki is hard)
[8:20] Tao Takashi: I will incorporate that motto in the next logo, btw ;-)
[8:20] Zha Ewry: *vote
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: too bad you cant embed mini apps in wikis :)
[8:20] Gigs Taggart: Morgaine, it doesn't solve any of Linden Lab's immediate problems either, really. Everyone's got delayed gratification here. Linden Lab probably has more on the line in the end than any SL business does. :)
[8:21] Morgaine Dinova: REST is just the webification of commonsense in structured access to data . Ignore the hype. We're doing what is sensible in an engineering way.
[8:21] Zero Linden: Zha - we should begin a Wiki page on fundimental design patterns and decisions
[8:21] Zero Linden: both small and big
[8:21] Zero Linden: as for locking down - there is always history!
[8:21] Zha Ewry: Yes
[8:21] Zha Ewry: I'd be glad to help there
[8:21] Zha Ewry: Pound in some solid stakes in the ground on those
[8:21] Morgaine Dinova: Gigs: yes, you're right.
[8:21] Zero Linden: I suppose we could digitally sign versions that we believe we agreed to!
[8:22] Zha Ewry: Maybe someone could builf a notary
[8:22] Zha Ewry: *build
[8:22] Zero Linden: That's crazy talk!
[8:22] Gareth Ellison: Zero - i'd like to take the controversal view there - we need to dive in with some code or some hard specs (message/URL formats and other protocol details)
[8:22] Zha Ewry: I think we need to do both
[8:22] Morgaine Dinova: SL has notaries. But our problems are not legal ones.
[8:22] Zha Ewry: I want a c-http validation set of endpoints, ASAP
[8:22] Gareth Ellison: there's plenty of high-level conceptual ideas on the wiki already if you really want to do it the XP way
[8:22] Zha Ewry: and some sample services so we can say, with more than "Yeah, looks good" that c-http will work
[8:23] Zero Linden: wonders if Morgaine didn't know that my alt built SL's notary...... hence the banter!
[8:23] Zero Linden: Gareth - I don't think that is controversal at all - so long as we do it with an eye to seeing what works
[8:23] Gareth Ellison: that would always be the idea
[8:23] Rex Cronon: what are the specifications/requirments for sl2.0?
[8:23] Tao Takashi: wants a sprint ;-)
[8:23] Gareth Ellison: a first implementation to throw away and only recycle code snippets from
[8:23] Zero Linden: we should indeed define the protocols of half a dozen systems ASAP and see what they need
[8:23] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: how soon before you can spend a few hours surfing the AWG wiki subtree? We've been somewhat prolific, but need counterpoints.
[8:24] Zero Linden: before nailing down all the principles
[8:24] Tao Takashi: I am all for defining something ASAP and then refine it later with respect to potential additional use cases
[8:24] Neas Bade: Zero, that would be great
[8:24] Gareth Ellison: nail down the core essentials NOW - nail down the fancy extras on top of that
[8:24] Zha Ewry: Yes.. and.. I think, we need.. pretty badly.. to validate some of the core prototcol assumptions
[8:24] Zero Linden: Morgain - I start Wiki surfing Monday morning!
[8:24] Gareth Ellison: there isn't too much more work to do in turning something like opensim/OGS into a good test platform for this
[8:24] Neas Bade: Once we get a few points nailed down, we can start doing some implementations
[8:25] Zero Linden: I'd start tomorrow - but that is the "end of quarter" review day at Linden
[8:25] Zha Ewry: How c-http might perofrm, if we can really get capabitli4es woven into a web of trust security model, etc
[8:25] Neas Bade: and that will prove if they work or not
[8:25] Gareth Ellison: Zero: AdamZaius on IRC has been wanting to get you onto IRC, he apparently is sleeping now....
[8:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I didn't know you were involved in the notary scene. Cool. :-)
[8:25] Tao Takashi: We do not know much about your alt I guess ;_)
[8:25] Tree Kyomoon: "Zarf Vantongerloo"?
[8:25] Zero Linden: That's me
[8:25] Gareth Ellison: i'd agree with him on that one - we need to get you into #opensl on EFNet and discuss the dirty details
[8:25] Zero Linden: check my profile - I've always been open about it
[8:25] Tillie Ariantho: hehe
[8:25] Morgaine Dinova: kk
[8:26] Tao Takashi: ah :)
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: excellent handle, zarf!
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: short for "zarfolemew" ?
[8:26] Neas Bade: ug
[8:26] Neas Bade: :)
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: (space balls reference there :)
[8:27] Zero Linden: Nope - "zarf" is a word in and of itself....
[8:27] Morgaine Dinova: Not a patch on Slartibartfast :-)
[8:27] Zero Linden: And it was my name on CyberianCity II (an MIT MUSE)
[8:27] Gareth Ellison: is it a sane idea actually to construct domain controllers which allocate agent/region hosts dynamically, and built so that they can be load-balanced?
[8:28] Tao Takashi: so don't we need to define some communication paths as a start for all the components?
[8:28] Zero Linden: Gareth - yes, at Linden we'll be building that as part of Het Grid 2 -- we call it, unimaginitively, the "coordinator"
[8:28] Gareth Ellison: i've been hacking on a mulib implementation like that - putting domain controllers with REST requests to build sessions which return the URL of the agent host handling that agent's session
[8:28] Zha Ewry: We need to define the service conracts
[8:28] Gareth Ellison: heh
[8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: yes. Check out Brainstorming#Virtualization of regions
[8:28] Zha Ewry: The paths are implicit at that pont
[8:28] Zero Linden: But mind you, the AWG's eventual spec needn't mention such details at all
[8:28] Gareth Ellison: Zha: indeed, i believe that the best way to do so is to get hacking straight away
[8:29] Gareth Ellison: the v-hosting feature discussion on the wiki is one i've been looking at too
[8:29] Zero Linden: One can imagine different domain implementations taking different approaches to computation resource allocation
[8:29] Gareth Ellison: each region host with each message gets told which region it's intended for
[8:29] Zero Linden: what the spec does need to do is anticipate that there will be these differening approaches
[8:29] Zha Ewry: I agree. I want a sprint on the chttp, capabitlies, and a good pattern for continuning messaging on top o fthat, with some simple servcies to drive it
[8:29] Zha Ewry: In fact, Zero, if we can't do that, we've messed up
[8:29] Zero Linden: and so not lock the protocol into any assumption that is too restrictive
[8:29] Morgaine Dinova: thinks that Gareth would like XP to work with a reduction from the minimum of two people to one ... :-)
[8:29] Zha Ewry: The services should facade well
[8:29] Gareth Ellison: so you think that the external interface to the domain should be uniform and not concern end clients with having to talk to the domain controller?
[8:30] Gareth Ellison: Morgaine: i'm extreme, lol
[8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[8:30] Gareth Ellison: say... there should be one point that the end client talks to, the domain controller being purely internal and that one point being essentially a load balancer
[8:30] Zero Linden: Gareth - we know from expereince at Linden, at least for our software, that we can't have all messages coming into a single end point
[8:30] Zero Linden: and the distribute behind the door
[8:31] Morgaine Dinova: I think XP is great. But I'm an engineer. If you think that that means you don;t have to document your ideas as they appear, watch out for my bat.
[8:31] Gigs Taggart: Gareth raises an interesting point, the agent domain might need "intimate knowledge" of the region domain in order to do dynamic region allocation.
[8:31] Zero Linden: But we realize that different domain impelmentation may have different approaches
[8:31] Gigs Taggart: that may cause some design troubles.
[8:31] Zero Linden: SO, the thing is, REST URL addressing comes to the rescue
[8:31] Gareth Ellison: Gigs - what i'm proposing is the agent domain talks to a load-balanced region domain controller
[8:31] Gareth Ellison: the region domain controller allocates a region host
[8:31] Zero Linden: After initial contact to a domain, have the domain hand you back a URL for where to talk to next
[8:31] Gareth Ellison: yes Zero
[8:32] Gareth Ellison: shakes Zero's hand
[8:32] Neas Bade: I thought the goal was to get the client talking to the agent domains directly in a lot of cases
[8:32] Zha Ewry: 99% of what we should see is patterns of handoffs to deeper resources from early ones
[8:32] Zha Ewry: Get a capability. it leads to more
[8:32] Zero Linden: in Linden's region domain that might point directly to the host running the region: [4]
[8:32] Gareth Ellison: Neas: the client should talk to the agent domain for agent-specific stuf
[8:32] Zha Ewry: Get a set of them.. they leed deeper
[8:32] Gareth Ellison: agent inventory etc
[8:32] Gigs Taggart: neas: no, it's got to be spread out. The agent domain is not a proxy.
[8:32] Gareth Ellison: IMs, friends list, avatar etc
[8:33] Zero Linden: where as another implementation, might point at something more generic: [5]
[8:33] Gareth Ellison: the agent domain as i understand it is a group of agent hosts with a mechanism for allocating agents to those hosts, and a set of agent stores
[8:33] Zha Ewry: Ideally, if you get handed a set of assets, that could be pointing you to a collection of assets, but.. if they are all described right, in rest terms, you won't konw
[8:33] Morgaine Dinova: "The client" as such is immaterial. All that matters is the local endpoint on the client, ie. a part of it, or even better, a separate process to which the bulk of the clien connects.
[8:33] Gigs Taggart: I don't think there's anything that could be called a proxy in this design we are working from :)
[8:33] Gareth Ellison: Zero: you just described what i meant by arbitary prefixes
[8:33] Gareth Ellison: [6]
[8:33] Gareth Ellison: the prefix is [7]
[8:33] Zha Ewry: smiles at the "violent agreement"
[8:34] Zero Linden: Right - Gareth - they key is make sure that the structure is baked in, insn't part of the protocol that the client of such a URL needs to konw
[8:34] Zero Linden: that way the domain side has total freedom to structure it as it sees fit
[8:35] Gareth Ellison: with only minimal imposed structure such as your /contact URL
[8:35] Gareth Ellison: :)
[8:35] Zero Linden: Well, I'd prefer not even that
[8:35] Zha Ewry: Yep. Servcies returning REST services.. so that we can lay out the contract but not what happens behind it
[8:35] Gareth Ellison: you just converted me to RESTafarianism
[8:35] Zero Linden: In other words, I want the response to the initial message to be things like:
[8:35] Zha Ewry: And.. Avoid *any* assumptions that there is one singel set of impclist couplings
[8:35] Zha Ewry: *implicit
[8:36] Gareth Ellison: my toy implementation is returning agent host URLs which serve as the prefix
[8:36] Zero Linden: connect: [8] get-rights: [9]
[8:36] Gareth Ellison: you login to an agent host allocated by the agent domain controller at [10]
[8:36] Tao Takashi: I had one question about REST at Which's office hour.. how would a MOVE be handled e.g. between region and agent domain
[8:36] Zero Linden: in other words, it is usually a mistake to even impose a URL tree below a prefix in the protcol
[8:36] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: "violent agreement" is why tech discussion are so great, and so different from non-tech ones :-)
[8:36] Tao Takashi: as it involves a DELETE
[8:36] Zha Ewry: Add to the moto "No implicit couplling"
[8:36] Gareth Ellison: you get back another URL pointing to the same host or a different one that will handle your session
[8:37] Zero Linden: A MOVE? as in moving an object?
[8:37] Gareth Ellison: the suffix should be uniform, prefix is arbitary
[8:37] Tao Takashi: as in rezzing a no-copy object
[8:37] Tao Takashi: or giving it to Avatar B
[8:37] Gareth Ellison: new HTTP verbs zero?
[8:37] Gareth Ellison: MOVE as an HTTP verb?
[8:37] Tao Takashi: MOVE as concept
[8:37] Zero Linden: Ah
[8:37] Tao Takashi: not as new verb
[8:37] Zero Linden: no copy objects
[8:37] Gareth Ellison: thought that was too nuts
[8:38] Tao Takashi: because if you delete it on GET then GET has a sideeffect
[8:38] Zero Linden: Okay - that is a bigger topic than I can cover in our remaining -8 minutes
[8:38] Gareth Ellison: NEVER BREAK THE IDEMPOTENCY OF GET
[8:38] Morgaine Dinova: REST responses don't return the state. They return a representation of the state.
[8:38] Zha Ewry: REST
[8:38] Zha Ewry: REST
[8:38] Gareth Ellison: that needs to be a ground rule
[8:38] Zha Ewry: REST
[8:38] Zero Linden: But no, I think an operation of the magnitude of rez'ing or taking a no-copy object
[8:38] Tao Takashi: that's why I ask, Gareth :)
[8:38] Zero Linden: won't be handled as a single REST operation
[8:38] Zha Ewry: That's is a pattern
[8:38] Zha Ewry: Which is why we need patterns
[8:38] Tree Kyomoon: thought we were already 8 minutes over
[8:38] Zha Ewry: Document them even
[8:38] Zero Linden: but instead will be based on the higher level patterns of cHTTP and message escrow
[8:39] Tao Takashi: I am just trying to wrap my head around REST :)
[8:39] Zha Ewry: there was a "minus" sign
[8:39] Zha Ewry: there
[8:39] Neas Bade: right, you have to think of REST as lower level operations than that
[8:39] Morgaine Dinova: I vote for an additional hour.
[8:39] Zero Linden: yes - it is past 8:30, is it not?
[8:39] Tao Takashi: no no, it is not, really!
[8:39] Tao Takashi: 7:30!
[8:39] Zha Ewry: So.. we need to document those patterns
[8:39] Tao Takashi: :-)
[8:39] Zero Linden: Morgaine - alas - I have other things (and other meetings) to attend
[8:39] Zero Linden: fie!
[8:39] Zha Ewry: "Do X, thenm Y, then Z in sequence" get this effect
[8:39] Morgaine Dinova: No Zero, it's just 7:0am, honest :-)
[8:39] Neas Bade: Tao, there is a pretty reasonable O'Reilly book that just was published on REST
[8:39] Zha Ewry: where X, Y, and Z are low level opertaions
[8:39] Neas Bade: good base reading
[8:39] Tree Kyomoon: Zero do you want me to post this to your office hours?
[8:39] Zha Ewry: And we do things like escrow and such one level up
[8:40] Tao Takashi: yeah, need to read something
[8:40] Zero Linden: Tree - if you would be so kind, that would be a great
[8:40] Zha Ewry: Neas, you have the ISBN handy?
[8:40] Tao Takashi: it's probably a question of which party to trust
[8:40] Zha Ewry: We should add it to the wiki
[8:40] Tree Kyomoon: ok cool
[8:40] Zha Ewry: I trust Toa's clock
[8:40] Zha Ewry: It's 7:30
[8:40] Zha Ewry: *Tao
[8:40] Neas Bade: well, here is the amazon URL
[8:40] Tao Takashi: avatar B can do the GET but then has to do a DELETE
[8:40] Neas Bade: [11]
[8:40] Zha Ewry: Ah. That'd be fine
[8:41] Gareth Ellison: i should have got here earlier, but i need to go now - Zero: #opensl on EFNet
[8:41] Gareth Ellison: WE NEED YOU!
[8:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: wiki (OH is great, but its focus is subject to ADD) :-)
[8:41] Zero Linden: Okay , Gareth - I get it!
[8:41] Gareth Ellison: heh
[8:41] Gareth Ellison: bye
[8:41] Zero Linden: Okay all - till next Tuesday
[8:41] Gareth Ellison: the bunny and i are outta here
[8:41] Zero Linden: Thanks again for coming
[8:41] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[8:41] JayR Cela: byee Zero
[8:41] Gareth Ellison: good timing
[8:41] Zeina Zehetbauer: Thanks Zero - enjoyed it...!
[8:41] Tree Kyomoon: buy zero!
[8:42] Zha Ewry: Thanks Zro
[8:42] Morgaine Dinova: waves violently to Zero
[8:42] Zha Ewry: Killer office hours today
[8:42] Neas Bade: thanks zero
[8:42] Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Zero
[8:42] Zero Linden: yessss tree?
[8:42] Zha Ewry: People, feel free to grab an AWGorupy invite from me
[8:42] Zero Linden: oh "buy", not "but".... silly me
[8:42] Zha Ewry: AWGroupy.
[8:42] Tree Kyomoon: hee hee
[8:42] Zha Ewry: Sheesh
[8:42] Morgaine Dinova: I think I've always wanted to be a groupie. Paging Freud ...
[8:42] Zha Ewry: LOL
[8:42] Rex Cronon: i want to check the havok4 office hourse so bye everybody
[8:42] Gareth Ellison: heh
[8:43] Tree Kyomoon: bye Dr. Nick!
[8:43] JayR Cela: bye~byee everyone:_)
[8:43] Morgaine Dinova: See you Jay :-)

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User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 04

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