User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 August 26

[13:02] Pixel Gausman: hey whump, no surface in here robot friendly?
[13:02] Teravus Ousley: wonders if the robot is using the kage animation set
[13:03] Teravus Ousley: Most minis use that set..
[13:03] Teravus Ousley: not all.. but most.
[13:03] Whump Linden: cool, I'll see if it works with this
[13:04] Whump Linden: Hello, so Zero's out today, so Tess and I are here to answer questions.
[13:04] Tao Takashi: about bears?
[13:04] Tao Takashi: btw, cool work on OpenSim, Teravus
[13:04] Teravus Ousley: :Dty
[13:05] Coyle Brenmann: so is this discussion limited to software tech, or is hardware tech open to discussion too?
[13:05] Pixel Gausman: Is there an extra special bear we can give Teravus?
[13:05] Xugu Madison: So, how's the inventory coming along? *duck*
[13:05] Tao Takashi: needs to update his opensim actually
[13:05] Tao Takashi: and my agent domain as well
[13:05] Whump Linden: During the week, there's several huddles and office hours that are focused on technical issues around PYOPG and Open Grid Protocol, but since Zero's office hours are for a more general audience, if folks have more general questions.
[13:05] Graph Weymann: hello
[13:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: Hi
[13:06] Whump Linden: Hi Graph
[13:06] Pixel Gausman: Tao: do u have a public agentd that could be used for testing?
[13:06] Teravus Ousley: well, one reason I didn't put a huge effort in inventory.. is simply the fact that the protocol around it isn't described yet.. and it would be a pity to keep a separate OpenSimulator inventory.. if it's going to be defined.
[13:06] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[13:06] Teravus Ousley: Yes, If you do.. please send me details.. so I can test against it also.
[13:06] Teravus Ousley: :D
[13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Teravus one thing I have heard mentioned is that an AD may keep track of more than one inventory server
[13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: so y ou could have one from LL and one from OpenSIm and one from Bob's Bargain Prims Emporium
[13:08] Xugu Madison: Actually, serious thought from me for once; when someone teleports int o agrid I manage, I'd like to give them a license, or at least a quick "Here's what you can do with our stuff, here's what we'll do with anything you create while here, here's who to talk to about problems"
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: each with a different trust model to track :-/
[13:08] Teravus Ousley: Xugu, that's dooable.
[13:09] Tao Takashi: Pixel: [1] is that public AD
[13:09] Tao Takashi: but I am not sure it still works with the recent client
[13:09] Pixel Gausman: thx
[13:09] Tao Takashi: those changes came a bit too surprising for me..
[13:09] Teravus Ousley: thanks also :D
[13:09] Whump Linden: Xugu, is that a card you get, or is that a machine readable document?
[13:09] Tao Takashi: code will also be released soon
[13:09] Tao Takashi: once I have time to split the syntronik parts from the more generic AD parts
[13:10] Tao Takashi: but the library stuff is alrady in the pyogp repo but without docs
[13:10] Xugu Madison: Whump, I'm happy to do machine readable if we have a format. I mean, we're doing everything under a fairly simple creative commons license, probably not too hard to describe in a machine readable way...
[13:10] Teravus Ousley: can implement an optional "rez message" in alert form
[13:11] Tao Takashi: does it need to be machine readable?
[13:11] Tao Takashi: I can't think of a use case right now ;-)
[13:12] Tao Takashi: but if you give HTML then the service is free to use whatever microformats it wants to use
[13:12] Whump Linden: Hey, I need to log out, I'm on pager this week and just called to look at a production issue.
[13:12] Tao Takashi: so it can even contain a license
[13:12] Teravus Ousley: ooh, ok. Good luck then.
[13:12] Tao Takashi: good luck, Whump!
[13:12] Whump Linden: So I'd say, continue, and Tess may join you later when she gets back from lunch.
[13:12] Whump Linden: Thanks.
[13:12] Rex Cronon: bye whump
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks much Whump
[13:13] Xugu Madison: Seeya Wh... too late
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: so hummm
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, we had a linden for a few ;-)
[13:13] Xugu Madison: A URL for license would probably be perfect. Then the client can remember you've seen it already, and for well known licenses can possibly do something intelligent
[13:13] Teravus Ousley: hummm.... hi ho.. hi ho.. it's off to work he goes..
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Teravus you were having issues last night and submitted a few patches after talking with Whump. That concerned the xml+??? issue right?
[13:14] Teravus Ousley: well, specifically on talking with vaak
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: K was thinking that Tao could use the info to help get his AD workign
[13:14] Teravus Ousley: vaak was sending the rez_avatar cap request with application/xml instead of application/llsd+xml
[13:14] Coyle Brenmann: speaking about production issues...the "heavy load on logins" seems to be a recurring one. ;) Is this a place to discuss the causes and resolutions?
[13:15] Jonit Ivory: Hello all
[13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the long term fix (they hope) will be moving things to the AD design for the OGP
[13:15] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:15] valentine Biddle: hello
[13:15] Coyle Brenmann: Active Directory?
[13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: anythig new would either be in terms of a quick fix or something applied to the AD design, I suspect
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Agent Domain
[13:16] Coyle Brenmann: ah, phew :)
[13:16] Coyle Brenmann: and OGP?
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: the Agent Domain takes over most things from the sim, like login, inventory access, group IM, etc
[13:17] Tao Takashi: Xugu: the something intelligent is actually where I cannot think of an exampe right now ;-)
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Open Grid Protocols. What people are using to tst login and TP between SL and OpenSIm
[13:17] Tao Takashi: I hope things will get moved out the AD again at some point
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: that was what we were talking about this mornign with Tess, Tao. Next steps for OGP. Appearance? group IM? etc
[13:18] Teravus Ousley: Appearance requires some sort of inventory
[13:18] Tao Takashi: I guess if all things go wrong I will get that AD working again also like the first time: with tcpdump
[13:18] Xugu Madison: Tao, exactly! Y'know, where you're sure there's _something_
[13:18] Jonit Ivory: doesn't Appearance mean asset transfer?
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: I voted for group IM. we can continue designing things and start testing group IM without getting into to many legal issues like arise with inventory/appearance
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: ZJonit, right. That's why group IM seemed an eaier/safer next step
[13:19] Tao Takashi: and I stil think group IM should be moved outside the AD
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: easier/safer*
[13:19] Teravus Ousley: notes that OpenSimulator doesn't currently even really have group IM implemented..
[13:19] Tao Takashi: e.g. to some separate group IM server
[13:19] Jonit Ivory: help me out here, if the avatar is from the LL agent domain, then there is NO asset transfer?
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao that would be one of hte things to discuss. I think, however, that AD will be needed to track who is online or not
[13:19] Tao Takashi: right now with OGP there is no asset transfer anyway
[13:19] Jonit Ivory: all we are doing is providing land eswhere
[13:19] Tao Takashi: well, the client could login to that IM service and then the service knows you are online
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: at this point, there's no asset server hooked to the AD. Since only the AD logs you in, there's no defined way to get to the LL asset server when you use the AD
[13:20] Tao Takashi: of course some thinking needs to go into a distributed model of presence
[13:20] Tao Takashi: but then we actually reached the presence discussion
[13:20] Teravus Ousley: heh no usuable way.. anyway..
[13:20] Infinity Linden: yay
[13:20] Tao Takashi: Jonit: right now the only thing the AD is doing is really logging you in and transferring your name to some region on TP
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: you could write a kludge to log you in to the regular grid and play with things that way, but would be against the TOS and not terribly useful right now anyway (IMHO)
[13:20] Jonit Ivory: so you hook the assets into a central AD?
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Infinity
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: that's a proposed design, sorta
[13:21] Tao Takashi: there shouldn't be such a thing like a central AD
[13:21] Infinity Linden: hola, Sai
[13:21] Teravus Ousley: nods. Presence should probably be the next step.. assuming that we don't get out of the inventory debates.
[13:21] Tao Takashi: there can be many ADs any you choose where you want to have your user registered
[13:21] Tao Takashi: Hi Infinity
[13:21] Coyle Brenmann: So it would seem that currently, logins and group IM's are on a platform that is suffering from lack of sufficient capacity, or an unknown resource issue?
[13:21] Infinity Linden: in the near term i think it' going to be hard to avoid a central ad
[13:21] Jonit Ivory: so we're back to the extra flag on assets, which allow grid transfers?
[13:21] Tao Takashi: what is a central AD then?
[13:22] Infinity Linden: it's the online presence of the trust broker
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: well, for a given login there hsa to be, IMHO, Tao. That's the whole point. Your account is authenticated by the AD you are registered with and the AD serves as your proxy for registration with other grids, invetnories etc
[13:22] Infinity Linden: also keep in mind, assets don't HAVE to live on the same physical machine as the AD
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: there can be more than one AD in the metaverse, but should be only one AD per avatar
[13:23] Jonit Ivory: of course, but they can have an originator AD
[13:23] Infinity Linden: waht sai said
[13:23] Jonit Ivory: with inventory
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: or even in a sytem associated with teh AD except by trust agreements
[13:23] Tao Takashi: yes, one account is bound to one AD, that's clear I think
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: you could have asset servers that aren't associated with anyone except a group of artists, who contract with an AD for example
[13:24] Bartholomew Kleiber: Tao: thatss the inventory domain in our system
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: and the AD handles the deployment issues and trust issues for grids and avatars
[13:24] Tao Takashi: if the assets live on some inventory server though you have another trust relationship you need to manage. Barth and I discussed this last friday
[13:24] Jonit Ivory: it is imposssible to authenticate assets accross such a disparate system
[13:24] Bartholomew Kleiber: told ya ;-)
[13:24] Jonit Ivory: it needs a sea change in attitude towards assets
[13:24] Teravus Ousley: Jonit: not impossible, but difficult
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: thos are details that have to be worked out, obviosuly. Just talking about the connection space
[13:25] Infinity Linden: why?
[13:25] Tao Takashi: and probably not practical
[13:25] Jonit Ivory: exactly
[13:25] Jonit Ivory: impractical
[13:25] Infinity Linden: Jonit? what's wrong with distributed auth?
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Graph may have ideas on that using the p2p capabilities authentication thign
[13:25] Infinity Linden: you don't need p2p to do distributed auth
[13:25] Jonit Ivory: you need to have common protocols to a very deep level
[13:25] Infinity Linden: like what?
[13:25] Tao Takashi: maybe define distributed auth :) We discussed something where one domain gives trust to the next one
[13:25] Jonit Ivory: you will disallow connections unless thay adhere?
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: well, P2P between distributed servers, I guess, not avatar clients
[13:26] Xugu Madison: So in the long run regions might have a list of ADs they'd be willing to work with?
[13:26] Infinity Linden: in a sense, the AD is a trust broker
[13:26] Jonit Ivory: for authentication only
[13:26] Infinity Linden: it has a relationship with agents and a different set of relationshpis for regions
[13:26] Tao Takashi: yes, but if AD 1 trusts AD 2 and AD 2 trusts AD 3, will an object from a creator on AD1 will then be allowed to AD 3?
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but everything may require authentication at some poitn: inventory, scripts, group IM, who knows...
[13:26] Tao Takashi: or does there need to be some trust relationship between 1 and 3 as well?
[13:27] Graph Weymann: brrr
[13:27] Infinity Linden: it depends on the trust model and the representation of permissions
[13:27] Jonit Ivory: it becomes exponential
[13:27] Jonit Ivory: not good
[13:27] Tao Takashi: it depends on the contract between 1 and 2. Imagine you have to pay 10.000 if you break that contract but the contract between 2 and 3 is onle 10,-
[13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: AD is trusted by all external servers willing to deal with that AD. an individual grid or avatar has its own trust relationship, I think
[13:27] Infinity Linden: well.. PKI has the potential to go exponential and it hasnt
[13:27] Graph Weymann: I'm not able to follow this well right now, but it scares me how much you're talking about trust and permissions and *authentication* in everything
[13:27] Jort Denja: Will people's creations be safe? or will all be copied easily in future? :)
[13:27] Tao Takashi: then a creator might not want to let it go to 3
[13:27] Jonit Ivory: PKI is a good refutation to my argument yes
[13:28] Tao Takashi: and then think about the user: How can we tell the user where it can rez something?
[13:28] Infinity Linden: PGP keysevers tend not to go exponential due to the limited domain
[13:28] Tao Takashi: Is this dynamic?
[13:28] Tao Takashi: can it change after you bought something?
[13:28] Infinity Linden: but yeah... definitely we should tackle the simple cases firs
[13:28] Jonit Ivory: bah you have to make this usable too
[13:28] Infinity Linden: first
[13:28] Jonit Ivory: to teh "standard" sontent creators
[13:28] Jonit Ivory: content^^
[13:28] Tao Takashi: from a user perspective most ideas are rather complicated
[13:29] Tao Takashi: and it might confuse if you cannot rez something somewhere
[13:29] Tao Takashi: esp. if you could before
[13:29] Jonit Ivory: yes exactly
[13:29] Infinity Linden: i would argue that from a user's perspective it's pretty straight forward
[13:29] Jonit Ivory: how so Infinity?
[13:29] Infinity Linden: you type your password you log in
[13:29] Jonit Ivory: and your inventory is in your suitcase?
[13:29] Infinity Linden: and optionally list the url o the place you want to rez
[13:30] Jonit Ivory: I go to Grid X
[13:30] Jonit Ivory: I cannot rex Item Y
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: with whatever rights are granted for that given region/url
[13:30] Infinity Linden: taking inventory from one grid to another? is that hte problem we're trying to solv?
[13:30] Jonit Ivory: rez^^
[13:30] Jonit Ivory: it is my bugbear yes
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: amongst many others I think LOL
[13:30] Tao Takashi: well, if grid is from AD to AD or AD to RD
[13:30] Tao Takashi: probably also RD to AD
[13:30] Infinity Linden: i would argue that we should start with solving the problem of allowing inventory to rez in one region first
[13:30] Jonit Ivory: RD should not care about AD
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: grid more or less = RD (region domain) I think
[13:30] Tao Takashi: in the end I think content creators will make it "all grids" anyway
[13:30] Xugu Madison: I imagine trust will be reduced depending on the number of steps. So if I trust Bob, and he says Dave is okay, I kinda trust Dave. If Dave says Alice is great, I'm just about going to be willing to keep an open mind... or somesuch
[13:31] Infinity Linden: I would argue the opposite
[13:31] Jonit Ivory: yes?
[13:31] Tao Takashi: that's the only thing people will buy because they can be sure they can use it everywhere
[13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: AD is used to authenticate the identity of the avatar for everyone else in the system
[13:31] Infinity Linden: Tao... some wil.. soem won't
[13:31] Infinity Linden: and we have to support both
[13:31] Jonit Ivory: many won't
[13:31] Teravus Ousley: +1 Infinity on putting the horse before the cart
[13:31] Jonit Ivory: content creators are a paranoid bunch
[13:31] Tao Takashi: in the beginning many won't, right
[13:31] Tao Takashi: but in the end most will as they sell more that way
[13:31] Infinity Linden: the concept of scarcity is integral to many resident's business models
[13:32] Tao Takashi: also I don't think that many RDs or ADs will copy content
[13:32] Tao Takashi: viewers will
[13:32] Infinity Linden: and i don't forsee LL foreswearing the ide
[13:32] Infinity Linden: idea
[13:32] Infinity Linden: but
[13:32] Coyle Brenmann: scarcity?
[13:32] Infinity Linden: that being said
[13:32] Infinity Linden: abundance is pretty darn't aweum
[13:32] Infinity Linden: er... awesum
[13:32] Coyle Brenmann: Infinity: was that sarcasm?
[13:32] Infinity Linden: Coyle... the idea that a content creator can say "no copy / no trans"
[13:33] Jonit Ivory: no copy/no trans/no gridtrans
[13:33] Infinity Linden: it's the grid's way of modeling scarcity in the first life
[13:33] Jonit Ivory: introduces more complexity
[13:33] Infinity Linden: right
[13:33] Coyle Brenmann: ah, the term "scarcity" is what threw me
[13:33] Tao Takashi: ok, so if we start with allowing inventory to rez on some RD then it also means that we don't look at AD to AD inventory transfers, right?
[13:33] Coyle Brenmann: it's really more a topic of IP rights
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: on ly a limited nubmer of copies (1 or a few) not copy everywhere
[13:33] Infinity Linden: sorry... i am many times hobbled by an education that includes classical economics
[13:33] Tao Takashi: so we need to check if the AD trusts the RD then to not do bad things with objects
[13:34] Jonit Ivory: you can't enforce No Copy easily
[13:34] Infinity Linden: Tao.. exactly
[13:34] Infinity Linden: why not?
[13:34] Jonit Ivory: once it has left one RD
[13:34] Infinity Linden: right
[13:34] Jonit Ivory: it is lost
[13:34] Infinity Linden: so
[13:34] Tao Takashi: ok, so that simply means that the AD needs a list of trusted RDs I guess
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao I don't think you'd have AD to AAD transfers for inventory. sharing group IM maybe but darn... that's inventory under the current model
[13:34] Jonit Ivory: yes possibly
[13:34] Infinity Linden: we don't let protected assets cross into that region
[13:34] Tao Takashi: I personally would only buy objects I can take to my AD
[13:34] Infinity Linden: awesum
[13:34] Infinity Linden: Tao... that's the use model for OGP
[13:35] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: wait, your AD doesn't take assets, it just relays the connection of where to get them
[13:35] Infinity Linden: it's got to support your requirement
[13:35] Infinity Linden: as well as everyone elses
[13:35] Infinity Linden: but
[13:35] Tao Takashi: Sai: from a user perspective that's dangerous as the original AD might be shut down
[13:35] Tao Takashi: then you lose the stuff you bought
[13:35] Jonit Ivory: I think there is neccessarily a relaxation of expectations here
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the AD authenticates the user. Can you have a backup for authentication?
[13:36] Jonit Ivory: whilst content creators get used to intergrid transfers
[13:36] Jonit Ivory: that is purely political
[13:36] Infinity Linden: but if you want to transfer items into or out of the SL administrative domain... I would imagine that LL would require wet ink on paper (though I am not a lawyer)
[13:36] Teravus Ousley: notes that an inventory server host is sent using the current protocol.. but it's to a mySQL server.. that's probably firewalled off from the outside .. so it won't work :D. not to mention the issues with managing users in mySQL..
[13:36] Tao Takashi: right, AD to AD might involve contracts
[13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: well, teh fist stab willalmost certainly involve a dedicated asset serve rthat holds nothing but plywood boxes made within the beta metaverse
[13:36] Tao Takashi: that's why I think AD 1 to 2 to 3 will also need a contract between 1 and 3
[13:36] Infinity Linden: and AD to RD might involve contracts as well
[13:36] Tao Takashi: yes
[13:37] Tao Takashi: depends on the trust requirements of the parties involved
[13:37] Tao Takashi: but for LL I would assume so
[13:37] Infinity Linden: unless 1 explicitly trusts 2's ability to find trustworthy hosts
[13:37] Tao Takashi: which raises the question of how much the LL grid will be connected
[13:37] Tao Takashi: but it might still be connected but just objects cannot move around
[13:37] Coyle Brenmann: Tao: I disagree. I think AD 1's trust level with AD 2 should define if AD 2 is allowed to pass on assets to AD 3 for AD 1
[13:37] Tao Takashi: Coyle: but then you also need to tell 2 which sort of contract it needs to make
[13:38] Tao Takashi: because if 2 makes a weaker contract then you are doomed
[13:38] Tao Takashi: and then for 3 and 4 and 5
[13:38] Infinity Linden: oh oh.. .right... in the practical sense, yeah... near term having every AD trust every other AD explicitly and not having transitivie trust amongst ADs is probably a good place to start
[13:38] Jonit Ivory: it is a contract that an item can leave ADx or not
[13:38] Jonit Ivory: simple as that
[13:38] Coyle Brenmann: agreed, so maybe the contract "strength" between AD 1 and AD 2 is inherent in the trust for AD 3 by AD 1?
[13:38] Tao Takashi: so what if somebody cancels that contract?
[13:38] Tao Takashi: then you would need some standard for defining a contract strength
[13:38] Tao Takashi: which work internationally
[13:38] Jonit Ivory: too late
[13:38] Infinity Linden: uh oh... are we using the term contract in it's legal definition or in the more abstract sense of just an agreement?
[13:38] Jonit Ivory: it's gone it's gone
[13:39] Jonit Ivory: it is past
[13:39] Tao Takashi: legal sense
[13:39] Tao Takashi: I am at least
[13:39] Infinity Linden: so lets look at LL
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me, for now, we can start with 2 or more ADs that are worthless (the vaak and Tao's) and start playing with them and see what issues pop up
[13:39] Jonit Ivory: you can't impose product lifetime
[13:39] Tao Takashi: in a technical sense you can of course say "does pertain permissions" or somesuch
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: by "worthless" I mean that don't allow access to valueaable assets of any kind
[13:39] Infinity Linden: right now we have agreements with agents that are "constrained" by US law and the terms of service
[13:39] Tao Takashi: the LL AD is not worthless as people have the inventories in there
[13:40] Tao Takashi: but we can of course start with 2 pyogp based ADs
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: but there's no access to that asset server between grids. COUld have a dedicated server for grid interaction with the AD
[13:40] Infinity Linden: and (I have to be careful here... i'm not a lawyer)
[13:40] Infinity Linden: i would imagine we would have different contracts with RD operators
[13:40] Tao Takashi: I guess this contract thing will become quite complicated and I would expect this not to be used too wildly
[13:40] Teravus Ousley: well, if we are going with each of the region domains having individual inventories.. then I could make inventory work with OpenSimulator also.. it's just a matter of what the protocol will define it to be to me.
[13:41] Infinity Linden: and i would also imagine that a large part of that contract would be concerned with maintaining IP rights for content creators
[13:41] Tao Takashi: Tess inbound
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, that would work too. And define an asset server protocol for the pyogp ADs that connects to asset servers with boxes
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: hooray
[13:41] Jonit Ivory: we should work to portability of inventories, not lock them by some lagality into a certian AD
[13:41] Tao Takashi: I could create some free content even ;-)
[13:42] Infinity Linden: okay.. Jonit... i think i see where you're going with that
[13:42] Tao Takashi: imagine some contract to be made between 2 subgrids, one in europe, one in the US
[13:42] Coyle Brenmann: If "trusts" are used, it would most likely be broken down to specific asset types, and the restrictions of each type, oh my.
[13:42] Tao Takashi: sounds like fun writing it ;-)
[13:42] Jonit Ivory: yes, I buy it in any domain
[13:42] Bartholomew Kleiber: whispers ID
[13:42] Infinity Linden: and i would definitely agree that OGP should provide a mechanism for it
[13:42] Jonit Ivory: it is mine to take to other domains
[13:42] Tao Takashi: "mine" of course it's relative as you only buy the license
[13:42] Infinity Linden: whether its implemented "soon"?
[13:42] Infinity Linden: can't say
[13:42] Tao Takashi: but I would think that fair use also implies that you can take it where you want
[13:43] Tao Takashi: e.g. also to your personal domain which might be disconnected sometimes
[13:43] Jonit Ivory: the strength must lie in the asset
[13:43] Jonit Ivory: not the AD in which it is taken
[13:43] Tao Takashi: and all those checkboxes should be as simple as possible
[13:43] Infinity Linden: Tao. watch out... in the states, "fair use" has some pretty clear meanings for real-world goods
[13:43] Infinity Linden: but
[13:43] Infinity Linden: i think we're all on teh legal bleeding edge with digital assets
[13:43] Infinity Linden: but again
[13:43] Teravus Ousley: isn't a lawyer either. :D.. so stays relatively quiet on the issue.. but listens.
[13:43] Infinity Linden: I am not a lawyer
[13:43] Tao Takashi: even a list of trusted ADs and RDs IMHO is not that good for a user usability wise. what does this say about my use of it in 2 years?
[13:43] Infinity Linden: hold on
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: as far as I know, the model doesn't associate inveotires with ADs directly. Just the trust to allow the avatar/region connectons to flow through the AD
[13:44] Tao Takashi: well, some to defined meaning of fair use maybe :)
[13:44] Infinity Linden: +1 Sau
[13:44] Infinity Linden: 'Sai
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: so the AD needs to be trusted not to rob things or reroute them, but need not have a specialized trust beyond that
[13:44] Dale Innis: Doesn't the AD hold the inventory? Or am I confused again?
[13:44] Jonit Ivory: can we lock assets to RDs?
[13:44] Jonit Ivory: no
[13:44] Tao Takashi: we looked also at scenarios with a separate inventory domain
[13:44] Tao Takashi: but as said, then you also need trust relationships with those
[13:44] Tao Takashi: which will add to the confusion I guess
[13:45] Jonit Ivory: yes it will
[13:45] Jonit Ivory: overhead is a big issue here
[13:45] Infinity Linden: Dale.. i think the current model we're operating on at LL has teh AD "contain" inventory
[13:45] Coyle Brenmann: you'll also want the ability in OGP to block incoming/untrusted assets
[13:45] Jonit Ivory: so much authentication traffic
[13:45] Infinity Linden: though I know ive heard a lot of alternative recommendations
[13:45] Jonit Ivory: needs to be avoided heavily
[13:45] Dale Innis: OGP will just need an error message saying "sorry, I don't want that asset".
[13:45] Tao Takashi: Coyle: right but that might be implementation specific, e.g. only GPL, or everything but GPL
[13:45] Infinity Linden: actually.. i'm a big fan of authentication
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha wants it to be more compatible with the OPenSIm model with multiple asset servers available
[13:45] Dale Innis: Deciding whether to want it or not is up to the domain.
[13:45] Tao Takashi: which implies that there needs to be a way to filter assets
[13:46] Tao Takashi: like some known license
[13:46] Dale Innis: The domain just needs enough information to know if it wants the asset or not.
[13:46] Dale Innis: And the sending domain needs to know enough to know if it wants to send it.
[13:46] Infinity Linden: wait... when did GPL start meaning no authentication?
[13:46] Jonit Ivory: GPL never did
[13:46] Jonit Ivory: never will
[13:46] Coyle Brenmann: technical Q: Is there a replicated set of redundant asset servers now for LL?
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: I think that an AD can perform an introduction to the related things once per session, or only when tping between regions, not for everransacton of a given type
[13:47] Dale Innis: And when rezzing a thing, or putting on an item of clothing.
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: every transaction* of a given type
[13:47] Tao Takashi: Colye: I heard that there is at least some copy outside SF
[13:47] Infinity Linden: hmm... blergh... don't know if we've published that info
[13:47] Teravus Ousley: notes.. that the process is the following..
[13:47] Teravus Ousley: rez_avatar/request
[13:47] Jonit Ivory: this is working SL into a corner, assets must be point of sale free
[13:47] Infinity Linden: but that might be a different issue
[13:47] Teravus Ousley: it gives you name, position.. etc
[13:47] Dale Innis: ( Sorry I'm so late; want to plug the page that I started to collect these asset thoughts: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Please fix and add to and etc )
[13:48] Dahlia Trimble: there was some linden metion of redundant asset servers a while back
[13:48] Jonit Ivory: once they are bought they need to be portable
[13:48] Tao Takashi: I think Zero mentioned it last week
[13:48] Dale Innis: Why do they "need" to be portable?
[13:48] Teravus Ousley: rez_avatar - it gives you the sessionid, secure session id, and circuit code along with additional information
[13:48] Infinity Linden: assuming we did have redundant data servers, they could be configured in such a way to appear to all be the same server to external clients
[13:48] Tao Takashi: I hope he doesn't get fired now for revealing that LL is not that doomed in case of an asset server problem ;-)
[13:49] Infinity Linden: i think the multiple AD discussion is more of inventory moving from an AD owned by one organization to an AD operated by another
[13:49] Dale Innis: Fired for revealing that LL is *not* doomed? :)
[13:49] Coyle Brenmann: Infinity: that's the way they should be now :)
[13:49] Jonit Ivory: well I suggest once bought they need to be (carrying trans/mod on originator grid) free
[13:49] Tao Takashi: well, I guess we will only see in that emergency if they are doomed ;-)
[13:49] Infinity Linden: (and yeah.. i know.. .some people like to talk about inventory domains... i'm ust blanket including it in the AD for discussion purposes)
[13:49] Dale Innis: Still puzzled by "need". Because otherwise the buyer will be annoyed?
[13:50] Tao Takashi: I bought it so I want to have it on my server
[13:50] Tao Takashi: which I trust more than the creator's AD
[13:50] Dale Innis: Well, it's nice to want things... :)
[13:50] Coyle Brenmann: So "trans" would take on an extended definition :)
[13:50] Dale Innis: I bought this hair, I want to make copies for all my friends.
[13:50] Tao Takashi: imagine some fraud with people selling things and then switching of their AD
[13:50] Jonit Ivory: yes yes
[13:50] Tao Takashi: off even
[13:51] Infinity Linden: And Jonit.. yes... abundance is awesum, but we're likely going to create an environment where "scarce" items can flow between "trusted" grids
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: "need" should be an optional expression. By copyright law, as I understand it, nothing can be taken from SL to an OpenSIm without explicit permission of the content creator, even if it is "full permissions" boxes that you picked up at the junkyard
[13:51] Jonit Ivory: the permissions need to be inherent to teh asset
[13:51] Jonit Ivory: not the grid it is on
[13:51] Dale Innis: I disagree, Lonit.
[13:51] Dale Innis: Jonit.
[13:51] Infinity Linden: tao. that's always an issue
[13:51] Tao Takashi: yes, the asset might need some new checkbox
[13:51] Tao Takashi: but not for keeping it on the AD IMHO and just referencing it
[13:51] Dale Innis: A creator might want to limit which domains an asset can go to, and we "need" to support that. :)
[13:51] Coyle Brenmann: "Transfer across domains"?
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: or 20 or a new system entirely. This is why ZEro hates getting into specifics at this point. Legal messiness
[13:52] Jonit Ivory: the asset should, buy encryption carry its permissions?
[13:52] Tao Takashi: btw. also with just referencing it it's not clear to me how it solves any problem
[13:52] Teravus Ousley: does think it would be best from a user standpoint to add at least one checkbox... but knows that it's complicated :D
[13:52] Infinity Linden: Tao.. that's been getting a lot of discussion lately
[13:52] Xugu Madison: Sudden thought, we also need to handle "I trust this grid, but they explicitely don't want protected material"
[13:52] Infinity Linden: I think i remember Ann Otoole demanding such a check box
[13:52] Tao Takashi: you need to get it out. and you then use the reference to do that
[13:52] Dale Innis: Xugu: yes, that's a good use-case also.
[13:52] Tao Takashi: but if you have the reference then you also have the object
[13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's example of an IBM grid where GPL items are disallowed
[13:52] Tao Takashi: so why not give the object in the first place ;-)
[13:52] Jonit Ivory: hmm yes
[13:52] Xugu Madison: Dale, that's us, specifically. If we can't copy it freely, don't want anything to do with it
[13:53] Dale Innis: You should put it onthe use-cases page! https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model_UseCases
[13:53] Tao Takashi: there has been discussions about such a checkbox from the beginning I think
[13:53] Infinity Linden: xugu... good point.. .but also... it's less about hte OWNER trusting an external region domain and moer about the CREATOR trusting it
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: there were two hue discussions from those jiras I opened a while back. If anyone collating this stuff hasn't read them, they' are hundreds of comments long
[13:53] Dale Innis: That's pretty easy to do, though; if someone tries to rez a no-copy object on your RD, just return an error.
[13:53] Infinity Linden: or... i mean.. the scarcity issue is about taht
[13:53] Tao Takashi: a content creator might choose "allow object only on this AD", "allow object to go to ADs trusted by this AD", "allow it to go everywhere"
[13:53] Coyle Brenmann: Infininty: agreed, the focus should be on IP protection by the creator, not the owner
[13:53] Tao Takashi: then you also might need to define it for RDs
[13:54] Dale Innis: Definitely; both ADs and RDs I think.
[13:54] Tao Takashi: "only RDs trusted by this AD", "RDs trusted by ADs which are trusted by this AD"
[13:54] Infinity Linden: Dale... i think Xugu's point was that the receiving RD shouldn't ever get the asset if it won't agree to the AD <-> RD terms of service
[13:54] Tao Takashi: which already is rather complicated to understand
[13:54] Dale Innis: Infinity: that would be good, too.
[13:54] Tao Takashi: infinity: plus the user did not say that it's important to adhere to the TOS
[13:55] Dale Innis: In fact in the current design :) the sending domain won't send those, as long as the receiving domain is known not to support no-copy.
[13:55] Xugu Madison: Basically our model is that users can backup anything they have, and anything they see, so no-copy stuff rather trashes that
[13:55] Tao Takashi: because I might not care then you don't need to check
[13:55] Dale Innis: Whichever end cares can check.
[13:55] Dale Innis: It's just more efficient if sender does the check!
[13:56] Jonit Ivory: accepted your inventory offer.
[13:56] Infinity Linden: @Dale... i would put it "unless the receiving domain is known to support no-copy"
[13:56] Dale Innis: :) very good
[13:56] Coyle Brenmann: So can I expect any more holds placed on logins? :P
[13:56] Teravus Ousley: region alivE?
[13:56] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. hehe.. seems so.
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: logins? no. Rezzign objects... maybe
[13:57] Coyle Brenmann: been fun, gotta run. Dinner time by me.
[13:57] Dale Innis: Where "rezzing objects" includes "wearign skins".
[13:57] Jonit Ivory: Infinity, can you support an Inventory Domain?
[13:57] Dale Innis: waves at Gareth.
[13:57] Rex Cronon: bye coyle
[13:57] Gareth Ellison: hey all, still ressing
[13:57] Jonit Ivory: accross all possible ADs
[13:57] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:57] Infinity Linden: @Jonit... in what sense?
[13:57] Jonit Ivory: I register with LL
[13:58] Infinity Linden: in the sense of an inventory farm divorcd from an AD?
[13:58] Jonit Ivory: I buy inSL
[13:58] Jonit Ivory: can you offer that info to external grids?
[13:58] Dale Innis: If you go to an externla grid and try to rez the thing there... presumably?
[13:58] Jonit Ivory: yes
[13:58] Jonit Ivory: it asks your ID
[13:58] Jonit Ivory: as we can call it
[13:59] Jonit Ivory: Inventory Domain
[13:59] Jonit Ivory: yep Jonit bought it
[13:59] Dale Innis: I think we've been assuming that the AD would be performing that function?
[13:59] Jonit Ivory: we are a trusted grid
[13:59] Jonit Ivory: he can rez
[13:59] Infinity Linden: keep in mind that i'm not M... so any thing i say is modulo the understanding that i'm taking about philosophical OGP processes
[13:59] Gareth Ellison: interesting concept - an inventory domain, why not put inventory purely in AD?
[13:59] Dale Innis: Not important that you BOUGHT it really; just that you have it in inventory.
[13:59] Infinity Linden: right... we dno't have an ID in our architecture
[14:00] Gareth Ellison: apologies for kinda barging in here :)
[14:00] Infinity Linden: we have an AD with inventory
[14:00] Dale Innis: That is, whatever AD is in charge of your agent is also in charge of your agent's inventory.
[14:00] Jonit Ivory: same
[14:00] Dale Innis: Don't see any architectural need to separate them myself?
[14:00] Jonit Ivory: combine them
[14:00] Dale Innis: Ah, okay.
[14:00] Jonit Ivory: like I said earlier
[14:00] Dale Innis: We call that "the agent domain". :)
[14:00] Jonit Ivory: I log in
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth consider asset servers run by a group of artists no affiliated with any one grid
[14:00] Jonit Ivory: I have my suitcase of items
[14:00] Infinity Linden: to the agent domain
[14:00] Infinity Linden: in the agent domain's inventory
[14:01] Gareth Ellison: sai - how about assets being URLs?
[14:01] Gareth Ellison: so it could be anywhere on the web
[14:01] Dale Innis: Doing fine so far. :)
[14:01] Tao Takashi: well, those artists need to have accounts and thus they will be on an AD
[14:01] Infinity Linden: Jonit... what's next?
[14:01] Gareth Ellison: then artists can just throw up a webserver
[14:01] Dale Innis: Gareth: assets being *represented* by URLs. :)
[14:01] Tao Takashi: and then they give stuff to people and then it's in their AD
[14:01] Dale Innis: refuses to wear URLS except on special occasions.
[14:01] Gareth Ellison: dale - same thing more or less :))
[14:01] Dale Innis: :P
[14:01] Infinity Linden: you're authenticated to the AD and maybe even rezed in your initial region
[14:01] Jonit Ivory: URLs? or CAPS hidden URLs?
[14:01] Tao Takashi: well, webservers only would work for objects which do not need trust
[14:02] Dale Innis: Not really the same thing; there's alot more data to an object than will fit in a URL.
[14:02] Gareth Ellison: get the asset URLs to point at cryptographically signed content
[14:02] Gareth Ellison: dale - i think it was obvious what i meant - the object sits on webserver and is retrieved by URL
[14:02] Infinity Linden: gareth... how does this protect content?
[14:02] Dale Innis: The web server could require authentrication and authorization before satisfying the request.
[14:02] Infinity Linden: it allows you to know for sure that the content hasn't been modified since it was signed
[14:02] Infinity Linden: but
[14:02] Tao Takashi: it could use OAuth
[14:02] Gareth Ellison: infinity - allow CAPS proxy too
[14:02] Tao Takashi: but then it's not a simple webserver anymore ;-)
[14:03] Infinity Linden: without a pseudoidentity system, you don't know whose item it is
[14:03] Dale Innis: Depends on "simple". :)
[14:03] Gareth Ellison: ah, but here's the beauty - the CAPS proxy is optional
[14:03] Infinity Linden: blergh.
[14:03] Gareth Ellison: if each agent domain has a root CA, then we can verify that bob's prim cock was made by bob@bobsdomain.com
[14:03] Gareth Ellison: by verifying with the root CA at bobsdomain.com
[14:03] Infinity Linden: and anyone can copy it
[14:03] Infinity Linden: who wants a copy
[14:03] Infinity Linden: bob may be upset
[14:03] Tao Takashi: that's possible anyway
[14:04] Dale Innis: Not necessarily; it depends how the web server protects it.
[14:04] Tao Takashi: Bob is already upset today
[14:04] Gareth Ellison: unless you have that whole optional CAPS proxy thing
[14:04] Tao Takashi: because people will copy it in their client
[14:04] Gareth Ellison: or even better - standard HTTP authentication
[14:04] Infinity Linden: how does my viewer render things that it can't access?
[14:04] Dale Innis: as Ruth!
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Graph seems to me that this starts to get into the kind of cap verification scheme I saw mentioned in MIller's thesis...
[14:04] Dale Innis: :)
[14:04] Gareth Ellison: if you want to protect your content, only give out the [2] to trusted users
[14:04] Tao Takashi: well, once you have access you copy it and then everybody has access
[14:04] Tao Takashi: or at least those who get a copy
[14:05] Gareth Ellison: TAo - no different from today :)
[14:05] Tao Takashi: as I say
[14:05] Infinity Linden: so only trusted users can see it in world
[14:05] Tao Takashi: Bob is upset already
[14:05] Tao Takashi: otherwise LL wouldn't get any DCMA requests
[14:05] Tao Takashi: DMCA even
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Martin Scheffler [3]
[14:05] Graph Weymann: Saijanai, probably, but I'm finding I have other things I need to be doing, and haven't been paying attention. Also, this discussion is too flying for me to analyze the implications and suggest a better way...
[14:05] Gareth Ellison: are we talking a means of preventing piracy while still serving content to untrusted users?
[14:06] Gareth Ellison: cos that's madness
[14:06] Dale Innis: Yeah, that seems unlikely. :)
[14:06] Infinity Linden: gareth.. have you noticed that that's what we try to do now?
[14:06] Dale Innis: chuckles.
[14:06] Infinity Linden: but we don't limit ourselves to technological protections
[14:06] Gareth Ellison: yeah, but right now it basically consists of the sim enforcing the perms
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth did you read that thesis yet?
[14:06] Gareth Ellison: sai - not yet i confess
[14:06] Tao Takashi: still needs to find a way to get around caps ;-)
[14:07] Saijanai Kuhn: its not madness, but it may not be something LL wants to get into with the OGP
[14:07] Teravus Ousley: caps are transitive, right? :D
[14:07] Tao Takashi: as they make my AD quite insecure at the moment
[14:07] Jonit Ivory: no, sims are busy, they should not have the load of permission enforcement
[14:07] Tao Takashi: so before we have inventory on pyogp based ADs I guess we should solve that :)
[14:07] Infinity Linden: at the end of the day, if you can render it in the viewer, a client could be made to capture it
[14:07] Gareth Ellison: it is madness to send content to someone you don't trust and then expect any kind of protection against said untrusted user copying it
[14:07] Dale Innis: Permissions enforcement shouldn't be that expensive.
[14:07] Infinity Linden: but we sure as heck aren't going to make it easy
[14:07] Dale Innis: Oh, Gareth, we do it all the time now and it's not madness.
[14:08] Tao Takashi: it doesn't matter how complicated it is anyway
[14:08] Infinity Linden: right... which is one reason you don't see scripts being downloaded to clients
[14:08] Tao Takashi: hence I would vote for a simple solution :)
[14:08] Tao Takashi: which is not "allow everything" though
[14:08] Mirt Tenk: srry, tornadoes
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth what if the content were encapsulated in a mechanism that only the inended recipient could open?
[14:08] Gareth Ellison: give that tao an orange
[14:08] Gareth Ellison: sai - crypto!
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: of a sort
[14:08] Gareth Ellison: crypto is a good way to handle it
[14:08] Infinity Linden: gareth... what application o crypto are you recommending
[14:08] Dale Innis: Sai: the problem is that it's the intended recipient that we don't trust! :)
[14:08] Infinity Linden: remember... crypto is a tool, not a solution
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: [4]
[14:09] Gareth Ellison: infinity - only give the keys out to users who you trust
[14:09] Gareth Ellison: make the key random and unique per asset
[14:09] Tao Takashi: that trusted recipient might even have a hacked client
[14:09] Infinity Linden: that doesn't work for our model
[14:09] Gareth Ellison: or just scrap the crypto for content you don't care about copying on
[14:09] Gareth Ellison: infinity - your CURRENT model :)
[14:09] Dale Innis: plugs the page again: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP
[14:09] Tao Takashi: I really don't think regions or ADs will be the bad guys.. that's far too much effort
[14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: wasn't sure if it did, but thought it might appy in the generic web-server case
[14:09] Jonit Ivory: at the end of the day, you need to change attitudes, content creators are paranoid
[14:09] Infinity Linden: though the idea of an agent-specific cap or inventory item id has been kicked around a bit
[14:09] Gareth Ellison: i really like the idea of stock webservers being used
[14:10] Dale Innis: Actually most content creators seem pretty cool with it; it's just the loud ones that we hear. :)
[14:10] Gareth Ellison: nice and simple to encrypt your DRMed crap and put it on geocities even
[14:10] Jonit Ivory: I read the blogs
[14:10] Jonit Ivory: i get a distorted view?
[14:10] Gareth Ellison: jonit - is it "that" blog? ;)
[14:10] Jonit Ivory: fair point
[14:10] Dale Innis: Sure, Gareth, a stock webserver with a particular PHP Applause!! or servlet or whatever could probably do OGP just fine. Why not?
[14:10] Dale Innis: applause lol
[14:11] Dale Innis: PHP application that is
[14:11] Gareth Ellison: or web.py \_/
[14:11] Gareth Ellison: or.... plain old random webserver with no scripting could work
[14:11] valentine Biddle: ty XD
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Dale visit Taol's web-based AD
[14:11] Infinity Linden: ugh... webOGP
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao
[14:11] Gareth Ellison: that'd make things so simple
[14:11] Dale Innis: Yep, have seen it! Very nice.
[14:11] Teravus Ousley: ASP.NET FTW!11!1!!!1!!1!!!1!!11One
[14:11] Infinity Linden: actually PHP + Javascript would make a number of things convenient
[14:11] Gareth Ellison: i'd love to put a load of objects on my site and just link to them to rez inworld
[14:11] Gareth Ellison: javascript?
[14:12] Infinity Linden: mmm... javascript
[14:12] Dale Innis: Perl!!!
[14:12] Dale Innis: :)
[14:12] Infinity Linden: loves slot-based inheritence
[14:12] Teravus Ousley: nods.. AJAX..
[14:12] Gareth Ellison: infinity - why javascript may i ask?
[14:12] Gareth Ellison: are our sims going to need javascript interpreters?
[14:13] Infinity Linden: 'cause it's the most self-like, widely distributed language i know
[14:13] Infinity Linden: no no
[14:13] Tao Takashi: I can see URL based content for content where you don't care about protection
[14:13] Infinity Linden: i don't think we're going to go around REQUIRING people to use javascript
[14:13] Dale Innis: nono javascript as an implementation language,k not a protocol language :)
[14:13] Infinity Linden: i was just thinking that there are some peeps that like JS (like hte AJAX community)
[14:13] Teravus Ousley: it's not great at rendering speed either.
[14:13] Gareth Ellison: i can't see AJAX prims happenins
[14:13] Gareth Ellison: *happening
[14:13] Dale Innis: ( SO I guess we're back to asset stuff, rather than IM-prototype stuff? :) )
[14:14] Gareth Ellison: shudders
[14:14] Infinity Linden: so while OGP does not specify Python, there is a Python implementation of the bits of OGP that have been specified already
[14:14] Infinity Linden: no... i'm talking about JS server side stuff
[14:14] Gareth Ellison: ah
[14:14] Teravus Ousley: notes that the RegionDomain has also been implemented in .NET and Python
[14:14] Gareth Ellison: whatever floats your boat
[14:14] Infinity Linden: everywhere where you have python happening now, it could be server side JS
[14:14] Infinity Linden: yup
[14:14] Tao Takashi: just heard a talk about advanced javascript programming at FrOSCon
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the IM prototype is an easier issue. for now. Just create a forwarding mechanism i teh AD and you can play with things once you have a working system to argue about
[14:14] Dale Innis: is rushing off again; cya all!
[14:15] Infinity Linden: cheers Dale
[14:15] Xugu Madison: Seeya Dale!
[14:15] Infinity Linden: yeah
[14:15] Gareth Ellison: sai - IM has 10 billion trivial solutions
[14:15] Infinity Linden: i gots to run soon too
[14:15] Rex Cronon: bye dale
[14:15] Gareth Ellison: be gone dale!
[14:15] Dale Innis: Sai: do post something about an IM prototype: I'm sure we can find reasons it's not tha tsimple! :)
[14:15] Gareth Ellison: err, i mean bye
[14:15] Dale Innis: :))
[14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: 90% of which may not work
[14:15] Dale Innis: lola
[14:15] Infinity Linden: but keep in mind... most IM systems don't support spacial chat
[14:15] Gareth Ellison: spatial chat is seperate from IM
[14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: well, local chat isnot the same as group IM anyway
[14:15] Infinity Linden: there's a possibility that you might be able ot layer XMPP / IMPP on top of a spacial chat system
[14:16] Gareth Ellison: i'd leave spatial chat as purely a region domain thing
[14:16] Gareth Ellison: just let the sim do the forwarding
[14:16] Tao Takashi: as IM is sorta disconnected from the world anyway I wonder why not any chat system like e.g. XMPP could be used
[14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Locklainn got local chat working in pyogp already, but IMproved InstantMesage is awhole different kettle of fish
[14:17] Infinity Linden: still it would be nice to reuse IM standards for spacial chat as well as group IM
[14:17] Tao Takashi: which is why I would like to see the whole IM thing separated from the AD and maybe just referenced
[14:17] Tao Takashi: maybe XMPP could be extended for this purpose
[14:17] Graph Weymann: I've got to go now.
[14:17] Tao Takashi: but Zero said that XMPP has some limitation
[14:17] Infinity Linden: you might wind up having an X/Y position in a region just be another participant inthe chat
[14:17] Infinity Linden: yup
[14:17] Gareth Ellison: spatial chat over XMPP - could work, but feels messy
[14:17] Xugu Madison: I should head off too, take care all!
[14:17] Tao Takashi: but I still need to read the spec to understand those :)
[14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: again, just get a forwarding mechanism workign for the AD and implement the current group IM as a reference
[14:17] Infinity Linden: XMPP doesn't have the kind of scaling story we would have liked
[14:17] Teravus Ousley: well, Zero quoted that XMPP hasn't really ever been proven under load
[14:17] Infinity Linden: yup
[14:18] Tao Takashi: what actually needs to be scaled?
[14:18] Bartholomew Kleiber: isnt google using xmpp?
[14:18] Tao Takashi: google is also always coming up ;-)
[14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: 1 billion avatar accoutns, 100 millin region domains
[14:18] Tao Takashi: they use a very specialized version
[14:18] Infinity Linden: they're using XMPP between client and server
[14:18] Bartholomew Kleiber: they have a user or 3
[14:18] Tao Takashi: well, they don't need to be all on one group chat
[14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: sure but how do you divide it?
[14:18] Infinity Linden: and they have a "krufty" thing behind it
[14:18] Xugu Madison: Tao, works well with OpenFire server we have at work, how specialized can it be?
[14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: by distance? What does "distance" mean
[14:18] Tao Takashi: the same as I join a group now?
[14:18] Tao Takashi: for IM I mean
[14:18] Gareth Ellison: bear in mind the scary numbers are not all handled by one system
[14:19] Tao Takashi: not region chat, that's of course a different problem
[14:19] Tao Takashi: but how does vivox do it?
[14:19] Infinity Linden: Xugu... do you hvae 65,000 users on your chat server?
[14:19] Tao Takashi: they also have their groups
[14:19] Gareth Ellison: infinity - EFNet could do
[14:19] Infinity Linden: Vivox uses SIP/RTP i'm pretty sure
[14:19] Gareth Ellison: vivox uses SIP and RTP indeed
[14:19] Infinity Linden: you work at EFNet?
[14:19] Xugu Madison: Erm, no. but talk to the OpenFire people, I think they've tested 10s of thousands...
[14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: well, yeah, but can distance be applied? If you're on a SL group, does it apply to a nonsl group? What about a gid 5 trust domain hops away?
[14:19] Tao Takashi: Gareth: right.. there can be many IM servers, maybe one for each group even
[14:19] Bartholomew Kleiber: no one server must handle 65000 users
[14:19] Gareth Ellison: infinity - no, but they're a good example of a huge chat network
[14:20] Tao Takashi: yes, Vivox uses SIP but how do they do the handschake between voice groups?
[14:20] Infinity Linden: again... we need a system that can handle at the very least 65,000 concurrent users
[14:20] Tao Takashi: or channels is what they call it I think
[14:20] ylang Quan: do u need money to play this game?
[14:20] Gareth Ellison: i work at Litesim Ltd - the company that pwned yours by getting grid mode OGP running first ;)
[14:20] Bartholomew Kleiber: I cant even read fast enough here, let alone 65000
[14:20] Infinity Linden: and no.. they don't all have to use the same endpoint
[14:20] Infinity Linden: but
[14:20] Gareth Ellison: ylang - this is a technical discussion, but no, and it's not a game :)
[14:20] ylang Quan: sorry am new
[14:20] Teravus Ousley: Effnet: highly distributed with a firm structured trust system... hubs and leafs..
[14:21] Gareth Ellison: infinity - how many servers must that system run across?
[14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: ah Hi and welcome, yLang
[14:21] Infinity Linden: umm.. Gareth... you care to keep it nice?
[14:21] Gareth Ellison: sorry, i have a bad habit
[14:21] ylang Quan: ty
[14:21] Jonit Ivory: welcome to Sl ylang
[14:21] Infinity Linden: how many concurrent users do you have over at Litesim?
[14:21] ylang Quan: not sure what I am doing yet
[14:21] Gareth Ellison: right now, highest concurrency ever is about 20
[14:21] ylang Quan: will leave u to carry on ur chat
[14:21] Tao Takashi: how many participants are in the biggest SL IM Group?
[14:22] Gareth Ellison: but, anyway - how many physical nodes must this chat system run on?
[14:22] ylang Quan: whoops bye
[14:22] Infinity Linden: it's been noticed that things that that work with 20 users fail miserably with 65,000
[14:22] Teravus Ousley: hehe, alas, it's true.
[14:22] Infinity Linden: gareth... the answer is generally "as many as are needed"
[14:22] Tao Takashi: I don't see though why general AD concurrency has to match IM concurrency per group
[14:23] Gareth Ellison: so, the answer in that case i presume is probably a "throw more hardware at it" then
[14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: well, some groups have many thousands of people with hundreds online at any given time
[14:23] Infinity Linden: but yeah.. it's generally not the case that eveyone is talking in the same channel at the same time
[14:23] Gareth Ellison: i think an IRC-like setup could work
[14:23] Bartholomew Kleiber: IRC comes to mind ...
[14:23] Infinity Linden: ergh
[14:23] Harleen Gretzky: Fashion Consolidated is one of the largest it has 8630 members
[14:23] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
[14:23] Infinity Linden: i'm getting called away
[14:23] Infinity Linden: cheers all
[14:23] Teravus Ousley: ok, take care.. thanks for the chat
[14:23] Infinity Linden: catch you all later
[14:23] Jonit Ivory: Infinity....... the bear?
[14:23] Tao Takashi: the thing is also: If you keep IM separate and reuse things like XMPP then people maybe are more likely enhancing XMPP should it have scaling problems
[14:23] Harleen Gretzky: tc Infinity
[14:23] Rex Cronon: bye infinity
[14:23] Jonit Ivory: tc Infinity
[14:24] Tao Takashi: that seems harder if it's part of a bigger protocol like OGP
[14:24] Mirt Tenk: take care
[14:24] Gareth Ellison: IRC, but with a less strict hiearchy
[14:24] Gareth Ellison: more of a mesh-like strcutrue
[14:24] Tao Takashi: tc Infinity
[14:24] Gareth Ellison: ugh, tyops

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 August 26

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