Difference between revisions of "Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.23"
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== List of Speakers == | == List of Speakers == | ||
{| | {| | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#440f00><b>Baker Linden</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#0900c5><b>DrFran Babcock</b></font> | ||
|- | |- | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#9d00a5><b>Gaius Tripsa</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#a50063><b>Ima Mechanique</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b></font> | ||
|- | |- | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#00c589><b>Kitto Flora</b></font> | ||
|<font color=#c55800><b> | |<font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#0042a5><b>Mona Eberhardt</b></font> | ||
|- | |- | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#7fc500><b>Nalates Urriah</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#00a7c5><b>Petr Topaz</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b></font> | ||
|- | |- | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b></font> | ||
|<font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b></font> | |<font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b></font> | ||
|<font color=# | |<font color=#5200a5><b>Sit Test</b></font> | ||
|- | |- | ||
|<font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b></font> | |||
|<font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b></font> | |||
|<font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b></font> | |||
|- | |||
|<font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b></font> | |||
|<font color=#c50000><b>Whirly Fizzle</b></font> | |||
|<font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b></font> | |||
|- | |||
|<font color=#a50018><b>Zander Roxley</b></font> | |||
|} | |} | ||
== Transcript == | == Transcript == | ||
[12:01] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: | [12:01] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Hello everyone ... I can get started with the server update news</nowiki></font> | ||
[12:01] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: The forum post is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-22/td-p/2095945</font> | |||
[12:02] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Hav you automated the transcripts?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:02] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: We updated the main channel this morning with the "Experience tools" project.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:02] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: This really shouldn't affect anything, and unfortunately I don't have any updates or info on how this might be released as a feature or product</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:03] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.phpfor<nowiki> owner use "llsl:Rex Cronon" for que use "chatLog" and go here></nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php</font> | |||
[12:03] <font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b><nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Yuzuru Jewell</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:03] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: So it's out there, but not strictly usable?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:03] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: The server-side appearance code has been doing well and the full grid rollout is likely soon</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:04] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Yes, AlveKatt</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:04] <font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b><nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Sovereign Engineer</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:05] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: O.o</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:05] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Tomorrow we'll get the RCs updated. The maintenace branch on BlueSteel is the same, and the server-side appearance code will be on LeTigre and Magnum</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:05] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Why does everyone have to pick on the chicken?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:05] <font color=#0900c5><b>DrFran Babcock</b><nowiki>: another day, another pusher</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:06] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: D:</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:06] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm not monitoring the playground so send me an IM if anything gets out of hand :)</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:06] <font color=#00a7c5><b>Petr Topaz</b><nowiki>: mmm KFC</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:07] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: \o/</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:07] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: That's it for release news ... Baker, did you have anything?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:07] <font color=#0900c5><b>DrFran Babcock</b><nowiki>: omg.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:07] <font color=#440f00><b>Baker Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm still working on the viewer-side implementation of group bans</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:08] <font color=#440f00><b>Baker Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm currently deciding on the format of the data coming into the viewer, and adding it to the group manager subsystem in the viewer.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:08] <font color=#440f00><b>Baker Linden</b><nowiki>: That's about it :)</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:08] <font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b><nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Whirly Fizzle</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:08] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: ok - the table's open for topics and questions then</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:09] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Any news on the interest list work Andrew was taking care of?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:10] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: No - he was wrapping that up but it wasn't ready for release yet. I don't know if it's a possibility for next week or not</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:10] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: He was on vacation a bit so progress stopped during then</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:12] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: This might be a very quiet meeting :)</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:12] <font color=#00c589><b>Kitto Flora</b><nowiki>: No one's working on the serious problems... what's to ask?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:12] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: Btw; I has a convert material question. Is it possible to do an auto "undo" if you try to convert an object and it get to high LI? Now objects are returned and then it can be hard to restore them.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:13] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: Ie, if an object get to high LI it get back to original state instead of getting returned</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:13] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Can we expect there to get the world update problem for quick turns to come back when the interest list work rolls out?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:13] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: What Kenny said!</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:14] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: yeah... I remember that was mentioned yesterday at the mesh meeting</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:14] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Kennylex - so I understand it ... you add materials, this switches you to the new accounting which gives you a higher cost, it gets returned and you're kinda stuck?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:14] <font color=#7fc500><b>Nalates Urriah</b><nowiki>: Or a feature to estimate the LI when materials are added...</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:15] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: I did miss that, but this is for all objects.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:15] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: I did try convert a build to convex hulls and it become around 35 000 LI.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:15] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: wow kennylex</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: erf... that sucks</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: That's... ridiculous.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#0900c5><b>DrFran Babcock</b><nowiki>: where does one rez that ???</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: In OpenSim. :P</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: I don't think he -can-</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: there r not enought prims in the sim for that:(</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: To fix it you has to wear the build and eddit while wearing it</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: right.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Ah, that's clever.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:16] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: LL will have to fix </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1287<nowiki> before they allow parcel prim overflow, heh</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:17] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: (Also, I swear that sometimes the LI *temporarily* goes super-critical, then settles down to a real number.)</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:17] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: hmm, yeah, that sounds pretty ugly</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:17] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: There has to be some kind of warning.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:17] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: but this brings up an interesting question... what was the limit of 15,000 prims a sim originally set for?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:17] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Closed Jira.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:17] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: like, why was that the limit?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:18] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: i think was for havok</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:19] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I think it was a best guess at the time for a reasonable number ... given the variety of prims, it's not a real measure of how loaded or full the region is, but it needed some limit</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:20] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: You still can make simcrashingly complex physics shapes with 15000 prims I gather.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:21] <font color=#00c589><b>Kitto Flora</b><nowiki>: What is being changed for Materials? I look at the LL Wiki for Materials - I don't see any changes.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:21] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: But I think LI system is good, it has made me optimize mote, but it need to be safe and give a carrot to thise who do optimize</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:21] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: The thing I keep coming back to is that the use of any of the new mesh/materials stuff is seriously discouraged by the unpredictability (and often outright lunacy) of the LI system.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:21] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: if you need physics to crash sims you're doing it wrong</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:21] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: okay... then that begs the next logical question: now that we're WELL off of Havok 1, and into the 'LI era', why is 15,000 still the limit?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:21] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: The new accounting is an attempt to get a more accurate measurement of "cost" but that turns out to be really complex ... and I know it's not perfect</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: not perfect?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Yeah. You really need safeguard from makiing an object unrezable by accident.</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I know you don't think it's perfect</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: not PERFECT?! No. It';s outright B-R-O-K-E-N</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: <.,</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: Is it not better that it is easy to understand rather than accurate?</nowiki></font> | |||
[12:22] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki> has an object with an LI of 630,000</nowiki></font> | |||
[12: | [12:22] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: o.o</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:22] <font color=#c50000><b>Whirly Fizzle</b><nowiki>: Wow lol</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:23] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: or was it 640</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:23] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: I think LL's next chance at acceptable "gamble" of changing the LI calc would be on top of increasing the 15000 LI limit</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:23] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: With the new LI system you could lower the max to force people to use optimized builds, right? You can have soo much more detail.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:23] <font color=#a50018><b>Zander Roxley</b><nowiki>: 630K</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:23] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Well, there's a bit of distance between "not perfect (but close)" and "not perfect (and mostly unusable)".</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:23] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: the LI system, especially with mesh, actually PUNISHES you for making LOD models</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: 12.5 million land impact linkset - </nowiki>http://static.dyp.im/4S1V3LiIDX/bb137f5c429fff5180fca48f53689a4d.png<nowiki> <--beat this high score for a single object LI</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: Is that a challenege?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: o.o</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: :></nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Tiberious: Does that include when you make a prim physics shape for the Mesh model?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: idk, I wasn't even trying, just impressed</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:24] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: yes, that includes a physics mesh</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:25] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Tiberious, you can lower the LI by making the physics shape from untortured prims rather than Mesh.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:25] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: in fact, the LI system encourages gaming the ever-loving HELL out of it by making one mesh for the High LOD, and using it for the top -3- slots</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:26] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Uhm, I would like to point out that's not a "score" where you're trying to get bigger numbers ;)</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:26] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: and generating the lowest 'cause nobody ever really sees that one</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:26] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: nope, but fun nonetheless</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:26] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: but that said, it's pretty funny</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:26] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki> is already thinking about how to get one above 12.5 mil</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:26] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: o.o</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Funny for you, disheartening for me. :-/</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#0900c5><b>DrFran Babcock</b><nowiki> tries to make everything 1LI if it's going to be rezzed. Challenging</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: so was it the physics shape that pushed it up so high?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#a50018><b>Zander Roxley</b><nowiki>: 0.5</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: imo all these weirdly huge LI are not really needed</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#c50000><b>Whirly Fizzle</b><nowiki>: What happens if you wear that object Lucia? Do we all crash? :D</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: uh</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: no physics involved</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: your framerate will be very sad.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: Especially toaster gpus :o</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: can't rez it... it's over 15,000 LI</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: you can wear it.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: silly.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: had I added physics it would probably have been astronomical</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:27] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: If prims get to small it should automaticly become convex hull</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: or rez it as temp</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#004fc5><b>Sovereign Engineer</b><nowiki>: o.o</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#c50000><b>Whirly Fizzle</b><nowiki>: lol</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Or none.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: and even when holes become to small</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: idk what my ARC would have been wearing it either, heh</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:28] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: the LI number does not represend the actual nr of objects in a linked set. it represents how heave an linked set is</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: heavy</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: how heavy*</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b><nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: JayR Cela</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: The LI number is an amorphous, opaque calculation</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: but, this just goes to show why the LI system is so bad as it stands</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: I wear 15 000 LI object now but ARC not go up so much, but it is for things you wear has no phys shape.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: one thing I frown on with LI is, I wish it could be displayed along with prim counts in the prim owner's list</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Though if you can fool the LI system by only simplifying the last LOD that must be considered a bug, right?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: With prim builds, it is simple and transparent.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:29] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: At a really basic level, the system is designed to give feedback on doing things that are really costly for the region ... so it definitely doesn't like something you're doing to it ... too many triangles, concave surfaces, that kind of stuff</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:30] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: I mean, don't get me wrong...</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:30] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: if i set a linked set to pahtom its land impact should be zero</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:30] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: the idea is pretty damned good... it's just the implementation screwed the pooch</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:30] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: Davido, I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it breathing room</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:31] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Well, we've already seen that is irregular.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:31] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: How so?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:31] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: as many content creators rely on that explicitly I would think</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:32] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Rex, you have to consider that LI are also part of SL economy, I think.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:32] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: that its is a bizzare and unrealistic economy:(</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:32] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: all of my mesh creations that don't rely on physics structure I upload with either the last LOD or last two LOD values at 1 or 0 to get the lowest LI while maintaining decent LOD by distance and size</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:32] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: it allows for being gamed to hell and back, and puts seriously unreasonable expectations on mesh creators</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:33] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Phantom just zeroes out the physics cost.. there's still simulation costs for rendering and transfer.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:33] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: I mean, if I make an object that's only 62 triangles at highest LOD, why do I need to lower THAT?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:33] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: escuse me. the server doesn't render the prims</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:33] <font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b><nowiki>: First time visitor to your land: Zidonuke Ghost</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:33] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: it sort of makes sense to me anyway LOD levels acting as multipliers or exponentials</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:34] <font color=#a50063><b>Ima Mechanique</b><nowiki>: no, but it does send the geometry</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:34] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Simon, the LI system is supposed to reward if you have made incremental simplifications in the LODs, right?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:34] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: No, it doesn't, but 1) it does transfer them, and 2) render cost figures into LI.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:34] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: actually the data is located elsewhere</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:34] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I don't know the details on the LOD effect</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:34] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: It still knows about them, because it has to run them through the interest list.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: I do not like that a mesh as a cube that is optimized shape has hither LI in large scale than a sculptie</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: certain stuff needs to maintain it LOD throughout all distances though, like high rez frequency mesh</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: THere's some basic info here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Calculating-land-impact/ta-p/974163</font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: and is not like a linked set has a few gibabytes of data</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: and it shows how you can see the download, physics and display factors</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: my shields have to have full LOD or whenever a plate rezzes its busy loading LODs</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: if it does than it is a monster</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:35] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Lucy, I think you need to figure out other ways to work around such limitations.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:36] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: there are none in that regard</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:36] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: that's only 62 triangles</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:36] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: why does that -need- lowered any further?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:36] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: but as I was saying about the last two LOD levels beign low it allows for complex mesh without high LI cost</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:37] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: to rez very, very, very, very fast</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:37] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: faster than a bullet that comes towards u at full speed</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:37] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: I have stuff I uploaded thats 30 - 40k tri's taht uses only a few LI, where as if I maintained that LOD throughout the levels it would have been several thousand LI</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:37] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: oh that, I have no doubt</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:37] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: but 30,000 triangles is, frankly, overkill</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:38] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: true, but my app required it explicitly</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:38] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: and I don't use many that use that level, heh</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:38] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Rex, the physics shape doesn't have LODs, so the shield would need to be fully rezzed to work?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:38] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: I know how to optimize in normal apps</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:39] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Wouldnot*</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:39] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: depends what objects u use</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:39] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: but, when an object is only up to about 640 triangles at highest LOD, and you provide LOD meshes for the other 3 slots that do lower... why is that punished?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:39] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: This bear is free to copy, try to optimize it by give some patrs "none" as physical shape.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:40] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: No Mesh in that?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:40] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Oh, quick question, Simon.. would it be possible to find out the mathematical difference between llSitTarget positioning of avatars and llSetLinkPrimitiveParams positioning of same? Strife and I have been trying to make a more accurate UpdateSitTarget.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:40] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: No mesh, mesh are for losers.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:40] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: I would rez a 5ht iteration Menger Sponge here, but its 600k tri's and may lag everyone, lol</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:40] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: *5th</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:40] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: Do not look at mesh I did and have here :-)</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#808080><b>LagMeterVer4e</b><nowiki>: Prims Are Getting Low At Location: Linden Village - Simon Linden</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Lucy, Oooh, Is it a fractal?!</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Mmmmmmmenger Sponges :D</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Yup</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: idt its a fractal but its along the lines</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: It is</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Lucy, you can't tell and not rez!</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Talarus ... you mean the difference between where a sit position gets set and a prim position?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#9d00a5><b>Gaius Tripsa</b><nowiki>: We're not spongeworthy?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:41] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Simon: yes.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm not sure what you're asking but it sounds more interesting than the LI calculations :P</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: As it relates to avatar positioning.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: and this is the other object...</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: it's only like 640 triangles at highest LOD</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: I've asked about it in the past, but never have been able to get someone to look at the code and help answer it.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: and if you look, it has decent LODs</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:42] <font color=#0900c5><b>DrFran Babcock</b><nowiki>: and 2 LI</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: exactly</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm guessing that would depend on the prim size and shape ... you end up sitting on a surface, which is some distance from the location</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: We have an experimental function which approximates it.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: Talarus, what makes you think that the current approximations aren't precise?</nowiki></font> | ||
<font color=# | [12:43] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: the shiny one was 'cheated'</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: ... prim location, or "center" even if that's not really in the center</nowiki></font> | ||
<font color=# | [12:43] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Simon, I don't think that's true for scripted sits?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: and it's 1.7 download weight</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Empirical testing, Qie</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:43] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: by scripted you mean with a sit position that's been set, right?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:44] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: so, having the custom LODs was actually punished</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:44] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Isn't it allways relative to the prims center?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:44] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Depending on orientation and avatar height, it can be off by up to several centimeters</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:44] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: I wonder, because it's easy to test... but then it was by just such testing that the current approximation was derived.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:44] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: I've discussed it with you in the past. :)</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:45] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: heh, that was a *long* time ago.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:45] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Yup, Simon</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:45] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: 'cheated' (high for top 3 LODs, and a generated Lowest): 1.7</nowiki></font> | ||
<font color=#26c500><nowiki>Custom LODs: 2.3</nowiki></font> | |||
[12: | [12:45] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Yus. This is SL. Issues have long lives. :P</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:45] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: that's why I say the LI system punishes you for trying</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:45] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Also, A fat butt will interesect if you were in a thin avatar when testing the sit position. The center of the avatar is the hip somewhere, I think?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:46] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: I desperately tried to read taht slowly, lol</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:46] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: It is hare to use LI, but it can be rewarding.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:46] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Basically, there is a mathematical discrepancy between the sit target and where the avatar is positioned via llSLPP</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:46] <font color=#26c500><b>Tiberious Neruda</b><nowiki>: what I'm saying is the LI system should reward you for making the LODs, even if they're not the drastic cuts LL expects</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:47] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: and materials are awesome, I has some in the Borg ship. It shall be free to copy too</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:47] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: yeah, I can imagine AV size might come into play for that ... I don't know what exact part gets tied to the position, but assuming it's in the AV center / core you wouldn't match the outside of the shape</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:47] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: The UpdateSitTarget function in the wiki is an approximation, and we've refined it a bit, but it is still not 100% accurate.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:47] <font color=#5200a5><b>Sit Test</b><nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:47] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: Tal, I vaguely recall somebody claiming that the leg length of the avatar shape, specifically, would affect how the sit offset worked. This back when Lex Neva and company were first trying to derive the equation we all use now.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:48] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Escort DeFarge, I think</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:48] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: ah, yeah, I think that's correct.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:48] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: using LI is like being slowly tortured. i guess that is good if u like bdsm:)</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:49] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: I can't find the wiki page for update sit target...</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:49] <font color=#00c589><b>Kitto Flora</b><nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSitTarget<nowiki>#Useful_Snippets</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:49] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Anyway, point is, there is a function of some kind which will give a 100% translation, but it really needs some LL input from someone looking at the code.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:49] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Yeah, it's in llSitTarget</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:51] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Oh, so it's a safeguard function of sorts?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:51] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I suspect the server side is actually pretty simple, but what you want is the right viewer result where people look seated properly</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:52] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Well, no, it's all server-side</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:52] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: yeah, it's not simply a question of appearance...</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:52] <font color=#c5b100><b>Qie Niangao</b><nowiki>: it's kind of... repeatability.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:53] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: I don't care where they are seated, I just want to make sure I put the same coords into llSLPP that match the ones in llSitTarget</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:53] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: As it stands, there is approximately a 0.4m discrepancy in the Z axis.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:54] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: iirc does that get off if they have shoes on or not?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:54] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: shows you how much I work with visuals and sittarget, heh</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:54] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: and that approximation varies based on at least one factor.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:54] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Supposedly it does, but I haven't tested that part.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: What are you setting via llSLPP?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: prim pos?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: The avatar position</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: as a link on the link set</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: ok, tell me the PRIM_WHATEVER flag you're using</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: PRIM_POSITION</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:55] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: In what context does this thing appear?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:56] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: lmao, we need PRIM_WHATEVER now</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:56] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Furniture, mostly</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:57] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: I know you can offset the avatar in teh making of the pose. Could that be it?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:57] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: If someone sits on a sit target, and is moved with PRIM_POSITION to the same offset, they will be off by some amount of error.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:57] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: ok ... so that sets the offset for the center point of a given prim. That won't be the same as a sit position, right?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:57] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Ooh.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:57] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Could it be it gets Prim position plus Sit target in the new prim?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:58] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: ah, I think I get it ... so you've set the set target. You then move the prim, and the sit changes? Is that the problem?</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:58] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Not moving any prims, moving the avatar with PRIM_POSITION</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:58] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: the seated avatar</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:59] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: my global pos versus teh sittarget here is off by .35</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:59] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: Oh, a luxyry moded.</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:59] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: When an avatar sits on a linkset, they become a link in the linkset that you can move around with PRIM_POSITION</nowiki></font> | ||
[12: | [12:59] <font color=#00c589><b>Kitto Flora</b><nowiki>: ... and nobody yet mentioned the pose construction ;)</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:00] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: The position vector you use is off from the sit target by some factor, based on the at least the avatar height.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:00] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: don't animations also change ave position?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:00] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: they can, Rex</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:00] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: They can, but that is an additional consideration</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:00] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: maybe is the animation that introduces the offset</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: ?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: I just would like the base translation function to be accurate. I can then deal with animation offsets.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: So basically you can reset it?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: No, because I am using the same animation in both cases to test it</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Without unsitting?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Can't*</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#00c530><b>Kennylex Luckless</b><nowiki>: See later, I has to go.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:01] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:02] <font color=#bb00c5><b>Visitor Detector</b><nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Nalates Urriah</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:02] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: You get different results with different sized AVs, right?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:02] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Correct.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:02] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: That's why there is a llGetAgentSize in UpdateSitTarget</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:03] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: btw. all those of u that were late. u can see the transcript now. for owner use "llsl:Rex Cronon" for que use "chatLog" and go here></nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php</font> | ||
[ | [13:03] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: But there are also some other factors involved</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:03] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Talarus, what do you use this function for? Customizable sit position?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:03] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: and I would like to know what they are, and if I can even include them in a translation function</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:03] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: Rex, I want to see it. but I can't.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:04] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Yes. it is a poseball-less furniture system</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:04] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Rex, did you log mondays meeting?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:04] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: i launched my site today. nothing happend monday</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:04] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Nothing?!</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:04] <font color=#440f00><b>Baker Linden</b><nowiki>: take care everyone! Have a good week! See some of you Thursday!</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:05] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:05] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: Thank you, Backer.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:05] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: yuzuru. what u mean u can't?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:05] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Anyway, if you can look into it and help out any, we would appreciate it, Simon. :)</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:05] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: I can't see the chat log of this meeting.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:06] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: I am late for 10min.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:06] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: yeah, SLPP is accurate, sittarget sux, heh</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:06] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I see one factor in the code - it's shifting 0.75 * the AVs x direction scale</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:06] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: yuzuru. did u go to </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?</font> | ||
[ | [13:07] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: yes</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:07] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: exclude the question mark</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:07] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: x?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:07] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: yes</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:07] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: there is no log.</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: for owner textbox use(llsl:Rex Cronon), for que textbox use(chatLog)</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: tried it, Rex.. get "Que is missing"</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: yes, the x component from llGetAgentSize()</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: huh.. interesting</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Could be that Sittarget and PRIM_POSITION uses different origin values? One might use the pose bone position value while the other uses collision box center, perhaps?</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: Oh I can see it!</nowiki></font> | ||
[ | [13:08] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: Thank you!</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:08] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: Well, if it was just a simple offset, that would be easy to calculate.</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:08] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: :)</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:09] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: But it changes based on several factors, only one of them known.</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:09] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: That's the one calculation I can see in the code during a sit that looks like it's using the AV size</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:10] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: and is x, rather than z? Strange</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:10] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: Rex, It is very useful!</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:10] <font color=#c55800><b>Lucia Nightfire</b><nowiki>: it uses it so your size not hovering over the prim like you were in a public bathroom, lol</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:10] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: oh, never mind, I'm looking in the wrong place .. that's un-sitting code</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:10] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: sorry</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:10] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: u r welcome:)</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:12] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: So far, I have sampled avs from ~1.16m to ~2.45m tall, and created a second-order curve function which approximates the variations better than the current UpdateSitTarget, but it is still an approximation.</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:13] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: simon. i u guys had a uml diagram would be relativley easy to find things without getting lost in code:)</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:13] <font color=#6200c5><b>Talarus Luan</b><nowiki>: It is exact for the three control points I use to generate the curve, but still off for all others to one degree or another.</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm not seeing any other offsets using the AV size, but it must be buried somewhere</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Could possibly be that the avatars intersecting physics shape pushes it out a bit?</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: I'm sorry but I have to get going</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Thank you Simon</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#0042a5><b>Mona Eberhardt</b><nowiki>: bye Simon</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#c5001d><b>Davido Chrome</b><nowiki>: Thatnk you Simon!</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:14] <font color=#c50076><b>Rex Cronon</b><nowiki>: it could be a constant</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:15] <font color=#0700a5><b>Yuzuru Jewell</b><nowiki>: Thank you, Simon.</nowiki></font> | ||
[13: | [13:15] <font color=#000f44><b>Simon Linden</b><nowiki>: Thanks for comig today</nowiki></font> | ||
<font color=#000f44></font> | |||
Latest revision as of 16:53, 6 August 2013
Prev 2013.07.16 | Next 2013.07.30 |
List of Speakers
Baker Linden | Davido Chrome | DrFran Babcock |
Gaius Tripsa | Ima Mechanique | Kennylex Luckless |
Kitto Flora | Lucia Nightfire | Mona Eberhardt |
Nalates Urriah | Petr Topaz | Qie Niangao |
Rex Cronon | Simon Linden | Sit Test |
Sovereign Engineer | Talarus Luan | Tiberious Neruda |
Visitor Detector | Whirly Fizzle | Yuzuru Jewell |
Zander Roxley |
Transcript
[12:01] Simon Linden: Hello everyone ... I can get started with the server update news
[12:01] Simon Linden: The forum post is here : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-22/td-p/2095945
[12:02] Davido Chrome: Hav you automated the transcripts?
[12:02] Simon Linden: We updated the main channel this morning with the "Experience tools" project.
[12:02] Simon Linden: This really shouldn't affect anything, and unfortunately I don't have any updates or info on how this might be released as a feature or product
[12:03] Rex Cronon: http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.phpfor owner use "llsl:Rex Cronon" for que use "chatLog" and go here>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php
[12:03] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Yuzuru Jewell
[12:03] Davido Chrome: So it's out there, but not strictly usable?
[12:03] Simon Linden: The server-side appearance code has been doing well and the full grid rollout is likely soon
[12:04] Simon Linden: Yes, AlveKatt
[12:04] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Sovereign Engineer
[12:05] Talarus Luan: O.o
[12:05] Simon Linden: Tomorrow we'll get the RCs updated. The maintenace branch on BlueSteel is the same, and the server-side appearance code will be on LeTigre and Magnum
[12:05] Talarus Luan: Why does everyone have to pick on the chicken?
[12:05] DrFran Babcock: another day, another pusher
[12:06] Sovereign Engineer: D:
[12:06] Simon Linden: I'm not monitoring the playground so send me an IM if anything gets out of hand :)
[12:06] Petr Topaz: mmm KFC
[12:07] Sovereign Engineer: \o/
[12:07] Simon Linden: That's it for release news ... Baker, did you have anything?
[12:07] DrFran Babcock: omg.
[12:07] Baker Linden: I'm still working on the viewer-side implementation of group bans
[12:08] Baker Linden: I'm currently deciding on the format of the data coming into the viewer, and adding it to the group manager subsystem in the viewer.
[12:08] Baker Linden: That's about it :)
[12:08] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Whirly Fizzle
[12:08] Simon Linden: ok - the table's open for topics and questions then
[12:09] Talarus Luan: Any news on the interest list work Andrew was taking care of?
[12:10] Simon Linden: No - he was wrapping that up but it wasn't ready for release yet. I don't know if it's a possibility for next week or not
[12:10] Simon Linden: He was on vacation a bit so progress stopped during then
[12:12] Simon Linden: This might be a very quiet meeting :)
[12:12] Kitto Flora: No one's working on the serious problems... what's to ask?
[12:12] Kennylex Luckless: Btw; I has a convert material question. Is it possible to do an auto "undo" if you try to convert an object and it get to high LI? Now objects are returned and then it can be hard to restore them.
[12:13] Kennylex Luckless: Ie, if an object get to high LI it get back to original state instead of getting returned
[12:13] Davido Chrome: Can we expect there to get the world update problem for quick turns to come back when the interest list work rolls out?
[12:13] Davido Chrome: What Kenny said!
[12:14] Tiberious Neruda: yeah... I remember that was mentioned yesterday at the mesh meeting
[12:14] Simon Linden: Kennylex - so I understand it ... you add materials, this switches you to the new accounting which gives you a higher cost, it gets returned and you're kinda stuck?
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: Or a feature to estimate the LI when materials are added...
[12:15] Kennylex Luckless: I did miss that, but this is for all objects.
[12:15] Kennylex Luckless: I did try convert a build to convex hulls and it become around 35 000 LI.
[12:15] Rex Cronon: wow kennylex
[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: erf... that sucks
[12:16] Talarus Luan: That's... ridiculous.
[12:16] DrFran Babcock: where does one rez that ???
[12:16] Talarus Luan: In OpenSim. :P
[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: I don't think he -can-
[12:16] Rex Cronon: there r not enought prims in the sim for that:(
[12:16] Kennylex Luckless: To fix it you has to wear the build and eddit while wearing it
[12:16] Qie Niangao: right.
[12:16] Davido Chrome: Ah, that's clever.
[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: LL will have to fix https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1287 before they allow parcel prim overflow, heh
[12:17] Qie Niangao: (Also, I swear that sometimes the LI *temporarily* goes super-critical, then settles down to a real number.)
[12:17] Simon Linden: hmm, yeah, that sounds pretty ugly
[12:17] Kennylex Luckless: There has to be some kind of warning.
[12:17] Tiberious Neruda: but this brings up an interesting question... what was the limit of 15,000 prims a sim originally set for?
[12:17] Davido Chrome: Closed Jira.
[12:17] Tiberious Neruda: like, why was that the limit?
[12:18] Rex Cronon: i think was for havok
[12:19] Simon Linden: I think it was a best guess at the time for a reasonable number ... given the variety of prims, it's not a real measure of how loaded or full the region is, but it needed some limit
[12:20] Davido Chrome: You still can make simcrashingly complex physics shapes with 15000 prims I gather.
[12:21] Kitto Flora: What is being changed for Materials? I look at the LL Wiki for Materials - I don't see any changes.
[12:21] Kennylex Luckless: But I think LI system is good, it has made me optimize mote, but it need to be safe and give a carrot to thise who do optimize
[12:21] Talarus Luan: The thing I keep coming back to is that the use of any of the new mesh/materials stuff is seriously discouraged by the unpredictability (and often outright lunacy) of the LI system.
[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: if you need physics to crash sims you're doing it wrong
[12:21] Tiberious Neruda: okay... then that begs the next logical question: now that we're WELL off of Havok 1, and into the 'LI era', why is 15,000 still the limit?
[12:21] Simon Linden: The new accounting is an attempt to get a more accurate measurement of "cost" but that turns out to be really complex ... and I know it's not perfect
[12:22] Tiberious Neruda: not perfect?
[12:22] Davido Chrome: Yeah. You really need safeguard from makiing an object unrezable by accident.
[12:22] Simon Linden: I know you don't think it's perfect
[12:22] Tiberious Neruda: not PERFECT?! No. It';s outright B-R-O-K-E-N
[12:22] Sovereign Engineer: <.,
[12:22] Kennylex Luckless: Is it not better that it is easy to understand rather than accurate?
[12:22] Sovereign Engineer has an object with an LI of 630,000
[12:22] Sovereign Engineer: o.o
[12:22] Whirly Fizzle: Wow lol
[12:23] Sovereign Engineer: or was it 640
[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: I think LL's next chance at acceptable "gamble" of changing the LI calc would be on top of increasing the 15000 LI limit
[12:23] Davido Chrome: With the new LI system you could lower the max to force people to use optimized builds, right? You can have soo much more detail.
[12:23] Zander Roxley: 630K
[12:23] Talarus Luan: Well, there's a bit of distance between "not perfect (but close)" and "not perfect (and mostly unusable)".
[12:23] Tiberious Neruda: the LI system, especially with mesh, actually PUNISHES you for making LOD models
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: 12.5 million land impact linkset - http://static.dyp.im/4S1V3LiIDX/bb137f5c429fff5180fca48f53689a4d.png <--beat this high score for a single object LI
[12:24] Sovereign Engineer: Is that a challenege?
[12:24] Sovereign Engineer: o.o
[12:24] Sovereign Engineer: :>
[12:24] Davido Chrome: Tiberious: Does that include when you make a prim physics shape for the Mesh model?
[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: idk, I wasn't even trying, just impressed
[12:24] Tiberious Neruda: yes, that includes a physics mesh
[12:25] Davido Chrome: Tiberious, you can lower the LI by making the physics shape from untortured prims rather than Mesh.
[12:25] Tiberious Neruda: in fact, the LI system encourages gaming the ever-loving HELL out of it by making one mesh for the High LOD, and using it for the top -3- slots
[12:26] Simon Linden: Uhm, I would like to point out that's not a "score" where you're trying to get bigger numbers ;)
[12:26] Tiberious Neruda: and generating the lowest 'cause nobody ever really sees that one
[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: nope, but fun nonetheless
[12:26] Simon Linden: but that said, it's pretty funny
[12:26] Sovereign Engineer is already thinking about how to get one above 12.5 mil
[12:26] Sovereign Engineer: o.o
[12:27] Talarus Luan: Funny for you, disheartening for me. :-/
[12:27] DrFran Babcock tries to make everything 1LI if it's going to be rezzed. Challenging
[12:27] Simon Linden: so was it the physics shape that pushed it up so high?
[12:27] Zander Roxley: 0.5
[12:27] Rex Cronon: imo all these weirdly huge LI are not really needed
[12:27] Whirly Fizzle: What happens if you wear that object Lucia? Do we all crash? :D
[12:27] Sovereign Engineer: uh
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: no physics involved
[12:27] Sovereign Engineer: your framerate will be very sad.
[12:27] Sovereign Engineer: Especially toaster gpus :o
[12:27] Tiberious Neruda: can't rez it... it's over 15,000 LI
[12:27] Sovereign Engineer: you can wear it.
[12:27] Sovereign Engineer: silly.
[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: had I added physics it would probably have been astronomical
[12:27] Kennylex Luckless: If prims get to small it should automaticly become convex hull
[12:28] Sovereign Engineer: or rez it as temp
[12:28] Sovereign Engineer: o.o
[12:28] Whirly Fizzle: lol
[12:28] Davido Chrome: Or none.
[12:28] Kennylex Luckless: and even when holes become to small
[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: idk what my ARC would have been wearing it either, heh
[12:28] Rex Cronon: the LI number does not represend the actual nr of objects in a linked set. it represents how heave an linked set is
[12:29] Rex Cronon: heavy
[12:29] Rex Cronon: how heavy*
[12:29] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: JayR Cela
[12:29] Talarus Luan: The LI number is an amorphous, opaque calculation
[12:29] Tiberious Neruda: but, this just goes to show why the LI system is so bad as it stands
[12:29] Kennylex Luckless: I wear 15 000 LI object now but ARC not go up so much, but it is for things you wear has no phys shape.
[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: one thing I frown on with LI is, I wish it could be displayed along with prim counts in the prim owner's list
[12:29] Davido Chrome: Though if you can fool the LI system by only simplifying the last LOD that must be considered a bug, right?
[12:29] Talarus Luan: With prim builds, it is simple and transparent.
[12:29] Simon Linden: At a really basic level, the system is designed to give feedback on doing things that are really costly for the region ... so it definitely doesn't like something you're doing to it ... too many triangles, concave surfaces, that kind of stuff
[12:30] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, don't get me wrong...
[12:30] Rex Cronon: if i set a linked set to pahtom its land impact should be zero
[12:30] Tiberious Neruda: the idea is pretty damned good... it's just the implementation screwed the pooch
[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: Davido, I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it breathing room
[12:31] Talarus Luan: Well, we've already seen that is irregular.
[12:31] Davido Chrome: How so?
[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: as many content creators rely on that explicitly I would think
[12:32] Davido Chrome: Rex, you have to consider that LI are also part of SL economy, I think.
[12:32] Rex Cronon: that its is a bizzare and unrealistic economy:(
[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: all of my mesh creations that don't rely on physics structure I upload with either the last LOD or last two LOD values at 1 or 0 to get the lowest LI while maintaining decent LOD by distance and size
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: it allows for being gamed to hell and back, and puts seriously unreasonable expectations on mesh creators
[12:33] Talarus Luan: Phantom just zeroes out the physics cost.. there's still simulation costs for rendering and transfer.
[12:33] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, if I make an object that's only 62 triangles at highest LOD, why do I need to lower THAT?
[12:33] Rex Cronon: escuse me. the server doesn't render the prims
[12:33] Visitor Detector: First time visitor to your land: Zidonuke Ghost
[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: it sort of makes sense to me anyway LOD levels acting as multipliers or exponentials
[12:34] Ima Mechanique: no, but it does send the geometry
[12:34] Davido Chrome: Simon, the LI system is supposed to reward if you have made incremental simplifications in the LODs, right?
[12:34] Talarus Luan: No, it doesn't, but 1) it does transfer them, and 2) render cost figures into LI.
[12:34] Rex Cronon: actually the data is located elsewhere
[12:34] Simon Linden: I don't know the details on the LOD effect
[12:34] Talarus Luan: It still knows about them, because it has to run them through the interest list.
[12:35] Kennylex Luckless: I do not like that a mesh as a cube that is optimized shape has hither LI in large scale than a sculptie
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: certain stuff needs to maintain it LOD throughout all distances though, like high rez frequency mesh
[12:35] Simon Linden: THere's some basic info here : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Calculating-land-impact/ta-p/974163
[12:35] Rex Cronon: and is not like a linked set has a few gibabytes of data
[12:35] Simon Linden: and it shows how you can see the download, physics and display factors
[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: my shields have to have full LOD or whenever a plate rezzes its busy loading LODs
[12:35] Rex Cronon: if it does than it is a monster
[12:35] Davido Chrome: Lucy, I think you need to figure out other ways to work around such limitations.
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: there are none in that regard
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda: that's only 62 triangles
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda: why does that -need- lowered any further?
[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: but as I was saying about the last two LOD levels beign low it allows for complex mesh without high LI cost
[12:37] Rex Cronon: to rez very, very, very, very fast
[12:37] Rex Cronon: faster than a bullet that comes towards u at full speed
[12:37] Lucia Nightfire: I have stuff I uploaded thats 30 - 40k tri's taht uses only a few LI, where as if I maintained that LOD throughout the levels it would have been several thousand LI
[12:37] Tiberious Neruda: oh that, I have no doubt
[12:37] Tiberious Neruda: but 30,000 triangles is, frankly, overkill
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: true, but my app required it explicitly
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: and I don't use many that use that level, heh
[12:38] Davido Chrome: Rex, the physics shape doesn't have LODs, so the shield would need to be fully rezzed to work?
[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: I know how to optimize in normal apps
[12:39] Davido Chrome: Wouldnot*
[12:39] Rex Cronon: depends what objects u use
[12:39] Tiberious Neruda: but, when an object is only up to about 640 triangles at highest LOD, and you provide LOD meshes for the other 3 slots that do lower... why is that punished?
[12:39] Kennylex Luckless: This bear is free to copy, try to optimize it by give some patrs "none" as physical shape.
[12:40] Davido Chrome: No Mesh in that?
[12:40] Talarus Luan: Oh, quick question, Simon.. would it be possible to find out the mathematical difference between llSitTarget positioning of avatars and llSetLinkPrimitiveParams positioning of same? Strife and I have been trying to make a more accurate UpdateSitTarget.
[12:40] Kennylex Luckless: No mesh, mesh are for losers.
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: I would rez a 5ht iteration Menger Sponge here, but its 600k tri's and may lag everyone, lol
[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: *5th
[12:40] Kennylex Luckless: Do not look at mesh I did and have here :-)
[12:41] LagMeterVer4e: Prims Are Getting Low At Location: Linden Village - Simon Linden
[12:41] Davido Chrome: Lucy, Oooh, Is it a fractal?!
[12:41] Talarus Luan: Mmmmmmmenger Sponges :D
[12:41] Talarus Luan: Yup
[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: idt its a fractal but its along the lines
[12:41] Talarus Luan: It is
[12:41] Davido Chrome: Lucy, you can't tell and not rez!
[12:41] Simon Linden: Talarus ... you mean the difference between where a sit position gets set and a prim position?
[12:41] Gaius Tripsa: We're not spongeworthy?
[12:41] Talarus Luan: Simon: yes.
[12:42] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what you're asking but it sounds more interesting than the LI calculations :P
[12:42] Talarus Luan: As it relates to avatar positioning.
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda: and this is the other object...
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda: it's only like 640 triangles at highest LOD
[12:42] Talarus Luan: I've asked about it in the past, but never have been able to get someone to look at the code and help answer it.
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda: and if you look, it has decent LODs
[12:42] DrFran Babcock: and 2 LI
[12:43] Tiberious Neruda: exactly
[12:43] Simon Linden: I'm guessing that would depend on the prim size and shape ... you end up sitting on a surface, which is some distance from the location
[12:43] Talarus Luan: We have an experimental function which approximates it.
[12:43] Qie Niangao: Talarus, what makes you think that the current approximations aren't precise?
[12:43] Tiberious Neruda: the shiny one was 'cheated'
[12:43] Simon Linden: ... prim location, or "center" even if that's not really in the center
[12:43] Davido Chrome: Simon, I don't think that's true for scripted sits?
[12:43] Tiberious Neruda: and it's 1.7 download weight
[12:43] Talarus Luan: Empirical testing, Qie
[12:43] Simon Linden: by scripted you mean with a sit position that's been set, right?
[12:44] Tiberious Neruda: so, having the custom LODs was actually punished
[12:44] Davido Chrome: Isn't it allways relative to the prims center?
[12:44] Talarus Luan: Depending on orientation and avatar height, it can be off by up to several centimeters
[12:44] Qie Niangao: I wonder, because it's easy to test... but then it was by just such testing that the current approximation was derived.
[12:44] Talarus Luan: I've discussed it with you in the past. :)
[12:45] Qie Niangao: heh, that was a *long* time ago.
[12:45] Talarus Luan: Yup, Simon
[12:45] Tiberious Neruda: 'cheated' (high for top 3 LODs, and a generated Lowest): 1.7
Custom LODs: 2.3
[12:45] Talarus Luan: Yus. This is SL. Issues have long lives. :P
[12:45] Tiberious Neruda: that's why I say the LI system punishes you for trying
[12:45] Davido Chrome: Also, A fat butt will interesect if you were in a thin avatar when testing the sit position. The center of the avatar is the hip somewhere, I think?
[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: I desperately tried to read taht slowly, lol
[12:46] Kennylex Luckless: It is hare to use LI, but it can be rewarding.
[12:46] Talarus Luan: Basically, there is a mathematical discrepancy between the sit target and where the avatar is positioned via llSLPP
[12:46] Tiberious Neruda: what I'm saying is the LI system should reward you for making the LODs, even if they're not the drastic cuts LL expects
[12:47] Kennylex Luckless: and materials are awesome, I has some in the Borg ship. It shall be free to copy too
[12:47] Simon Linden: yeah, I can imagine AV size might come into play for that ... I don't know what exact part gets tied to the position, but assuming it's in the AV center / core you wouldn't match the outside of the shape
[12:47] Talarus Luan: The UpdateSitTarget function in the wiki is an approximation, and we've refined it a bit, but it is still not 100% accurate.
[12:47] Sit Test: Hello, Avatar!
[12:47] Qie Niangao: Tal, I vaguely recall somebody claiming that the leg length of the avatar shape, specifically, would affect how the sit offset worked. This back when Lex Neva and company were first trying to derive the equation we all use now.
[12:48] Talarus Luan: Escort DeFarge, I think
[12:48] Qie Niangao: ah, yeah, I think that's correct.
[12:48] Rex Cronon: using LI is like being slowly tortured. i guess that is good if u like bdsm:)
[12:49] Davido Chrome: I can't find the wiki page for update sit target...
[12:49] Kitto Flora: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSitTarget#Useful_Snippets
[12:49] Talarus Luan: Anyway, point is, there is a function of some kind which will give a 100% translation, but it really needs some LL input from someone looking at the code.
[12:49] Talarus Luan: Yeah, it's in llSitTarget
[12:51] Davido Chrome: Oh, so it's a safeguard function of sorts?
[12:51] Simon Linden: I suspect the server side is actually pretty simple, but what you want is the right viewer result where people look seated properly
[12:52] Talarus Luan: Well, no, it's all server-side
[12:52] Qie Niangao: yeah, it's not simply a question of appearance...
[12:52] Qie Niangao: it's kind of... repeatability.
[12:53] Talarus Luan: I don't care where they are seated, I just want to make sure I put the same coords into llSLPP that match the ones in llSitTarget
[12:53] Talarus Luan: As it stands, there is approximately a 0.4m discrepancy in the Z axis.
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: iirc does that get off if they have shoes on or not?
[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: shows you how much I work with visuals and sittarget, heh
[12:54] Talarus Luan: and that approximation varies based on at least one factor.
[12:54] Talarus Luan: Supposedly it does, but I haven't tested that part.
[12:55] Simon Linden: What are you setting via llSLPP?
[12:55] Simon Linden: prim pos?
[12:55] Talarus Luan: The avatar position
[12:55] Talarus Luan: as a link on the link set
[12:55] Simon Linden: ok, tell me the PRIM_WHATEVER flag you're using
[12:55] Talarus Luan: PRIM_POSITION
[12:55] Davido Chrome: In what context does this thing appear?
[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: lmao, we need PRIM_WHATEVER now
[12:56] Talarus Luan: Furniture, mostly
[12:57] Davido Chrome: I know you can offset the avatar in teh making of the pose. Could that be it?
[12:57] Talarus Luan: If someone sits on a sit target, and is moved with PRIM_POSITION to the same offset, they will be off by some amount of error.
[12:57] Simon Linden: ok ... so that sets the offset for the center point of a given prim. That won't be the same as a sit position, right?
[12:57] Davido Chrome: Ooh.
[12:57] Davido Chrome: Could it be it gets Prim position plus Sit target in the new prim?
[12:58] Simon Linden: ah, I think I get it ... so you've set the set target. You then move the prim, and the sit changes? Is that the problem?
[12:58] Talarus Luan: Not moving any prims, moving the avatar with PRIM_POSITION
[12:58] Talarus Luan: the seated avatar
[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: my global pos versus teh sittarget here is off by .35
[12:59] Kennylex Luckless: Oh, a luxyry moded.
[12:59] Talarus Luan: When an avatar sits on a linkset, they become a link in the linkset that you can move around with PRIM_POSITION
[12:59] Kitto Flora: ... and nobody yet mentioned the pose construction ;)
[13:00] Talarus Luan: The position vector you use is off from the sit target by some factor, based on the at least the avatar height.
[13:00] Rex Cronon: don't animations also change ave position?
[13:00] Simon Linden: they can, Rex
[13:00] Talarus Luan: They can, but that is an additional consideration
[13:00] Rex Cronon: maybe is the animation that introduces the offset
[13:01] Rex Cronon: ?
[13:01] Talarus Luan: I just would like the base translation function to be accurate. I can then deal with animation offsets.
[13:01] Davido Chrome: So basically you can reset it?
[13:01] Talarus Luan: No, because I am using the same animation in both cases to test it
[13:01] Davido Chrome: Without unsitting?
[13:01] Davido Chrome: Can't*
[13:01] Kennylex Luckless: See later, I has to go.
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:02] Visitor Detector: Returning visitor to your land: Nalates Urriah
[13:02] Simon Linden: You get different results with different sized AVs, right?
[13:02] Talarus Luan: Correct.
[13:02] Talarus Luan: That's why there is a llGetAgentSize in UpdateSitTarget
[13:03] Rex Cronon: btw. all those of u that were late. u can see the transcript now. for owner use "llsl:Rex Cronon" for que use "chatLog" and go here>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php
[13:03] Talarus Luan: But there are also some other factors involved
[13:03] Davido Chrome: Talarus, what do you use this function for? Customizable sit position?
[13:03] Talarus Luan: and I would like to know what they are, and if I can even include them in a translation function
[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Rex, I want to see it. but I can't.
[13:04] Talarus Luan: Yes. it is a poseball-less furniture system
[13:04] Davido Chrome: Rex, did you log mondays meeting?
[13:04] Rex Cronon: i launched my site today. nothing happend monday
[13:04] Davido Chrome: Nothing?!
[13:04] Baker Linden: take care everyone! Have a good week! See some of you Thursday!
[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc baker
[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Backer.
[13:05] Rex Cronon: yuzuru. what u mean u can't?
[13:05] Talarus Luan: Anyway, if you can look into it and help out any, we would appreciate it, Simon. :)
[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: I can't see the chat log of this meeting.
[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell: I am late for 10min.
[13:06] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, SLPP is accurate, sittarget sux, heh
[13:06] Simon Linden: I see one factor in the code - it's shifting 0.75 * the AVs x direction scale
[13:06] Rex Cronon: yuzuru. did u go to http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?
[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell: yes
[13:07] Rex Cronon: exclude the question mark
[13:07] Talarus Luan: x?
[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell: yes
[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell: there is no log.
[13:08] Rex Cronon: for owner textbox use(llsl:Rex Cronon), for que textbox use(chatLog)
[13:08] Talarus Luan: tried it, Rex.. get "Que is missing"
[13:08] Simon Linden: yes, the x component from llGetAgentSize()
[13:08] Talarus Luan: huh.. interesting
[13:08] Davido Chrome: Could be that Sittarget and PRIM_POSITION uses different origin values? One might use the pose bone position value while the other uses collision box center, perhaps?
[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell: Oh I can see it!
[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you!
[13:08] Talarus Luan: Well, if it was just a simple offset, that would be easy to calculate.
[13:08] Rex Cronon: :)
[13:09] Talarus Luan: But it changes based on several factors, only one of them known.
[13:09] Simon Linden: That's the one calculation I can see in the code during a sit that looks like it's using the AV size
[13:10] Talarus Luan: and is x, rather than z? Strange
[13:10] Yuzuru Jewell: Rex, It is very useful!
[13:10] Lucia Nightfire: it uses it so your size not hovering over the prim like you were in a public bathroom, lol
[13:10] Simon Linden: oh, never mind, I'm looking in the wrong place .. that's un-sitting code
[13:10] Simon Linden: sorry
[13:10] Rex Cronon: u r welcome:)
[13:12] Talarus Luan: So far, I have sampled avs from ~1.16m to ~2.45m tall, and created a second-order curve function which approximates the variations better than the current UpdateSitTarget, but it is still an approximation.
[13:13] Rex Cronon: simon. i u guys had a uml diagram would be relativley easy to find things without getting lost in code:)
[13:13] Talarus Luan: It is exact for the three control points I use to generate the curve, but still off for all others to one degree or another.
[13:14] Simon Linden: I'm not seeing any other offsets using the AV size, but it must be buried somewhere
[13:14] Davido Chrome: Could possibly be that the avatars intersecting physics shape pushes it out a bit?
[13:14] Simon Linden: I'm sorry but I have to get going
[13:14] Davido Chrome: Thank you Simon
[13:14] Mona Eberhardt: bye Simon
[13:14] Davido Chrome: Thatnk you Simon!
[13:14] Rex Cronon: it could be a constant
[13:15] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon.
[13:15] Simon Linden: Thanks for comig today
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