User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 04 30

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[16:58]	Moon Metty:	oh no
[16:58]	Moon Metty:	hey andrew :)
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[16:59]	Moon Metty:	oh Latif is invisible now
[16:59]	Phantom Ninetails:	I can see him
[16:59]	Maya Remblai:	I can see him o.o
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	Ah... Denby made the pilot group for 1.23.0
[17:00]	Maya Remblai:	That's a viewer version...you mean a different server?
[17:00]	Phantom Ninetails:	What happens to this table when it reaches 10m?
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	oops, yeah
[17:00]	Yuu Nakamichi:	1.26.3 yes
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	I am running that 1.23 RC
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	I think most of the linden land is on the pilot rolls
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[17:00]	Maya Remblai:	I was wondering why I kept getting server change messages
[17:00]	Maya Remblai:	Ugh I can't stand 1.23, it breaks a lot of avatars
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	hi simon
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[17:01]	Maya Remblai:	I'm waiting for 1.24, 1.23 will break this avatar
[17:01]	Maya Remblai:	Two people have tried to sit on me already XD
[17:01]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	sorry Maya
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	I just fixed some "lost no-copy inventory item on failed rez bug" (for server-1.26.4). I should hunt down the pjira versions and assign them to myself.
[17:01]	Maya Remblai:	haha
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	didn't see you
[17:02]	Maya Remblai:	S'alright, I think it's funny
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	hehe
[17:02]	Maya Remblai:	I know a guy who's making spiky anti-squsih armor for these XD
[17:02]	Latif Khalifa:	andrew, good news
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ah there it is: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3521
[17:02]	Ardy Lay:	Oooh! Is it going to recover missing stuff like that missing parent folder fix did?
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	there's also a report with linden trees
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	and one with over 1024 scripts
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	SVC-3235 is one
[17:04]	Maya Remblai:	Three people
[17:04]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	3rd time's a charm!
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	Also "fix pending" is: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3235
[17:04]	Maya Remblai bites Arawan's toes
[17:05]	Latif Khalifa:	Coalesced objects get lost very easily
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	hmmmm
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	i never filed it
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	but if you edit a coalesced object over a sim border to and fro ...
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ok... announcements.
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	objects do get lost
[17:05]	Latif Khalifa:	coalesced disappear if you are near parcel border too
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Besides sever-1.26.3 (which everyone probably already knows about) I don't really have any.
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	that was one of the bugs - near the border, or hitting the prim limit
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	I've been fixing emergency bugs in server-1.26.3 the last week and a half.
[17:06]	Phantom Ninetails:	Is this terrible performance going to be fixed in the update?
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	What terrible performance?
[17:07]	Latif Khalifa:	if you get returned say all objects from a 4096 parcel its almost impossible to move that to another 4096
[17:07]	Latif Khalifa:	you cannot position it
[17:07]	Phantom Ninetails:	I've been noticing consistently low performance in Sandbox Goguen and Sandbox Cordova (where I usually go).
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, true Latif. The smart derezzers will derez large collections into smaller more managable chunks.
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	Latif - if you do that now with 1.23.3, you won't get one huge coalesced object
[17:07]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, unless you got it all returned
[17:08]	Latif Khalifa:	ah i see
[17:08]	Lime Breen:	sorry to interrupt but what the main topic here, just general sl concerns?
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	The autoreturns will break stuff up, and will try to group it togethe spacially, but I don't think that stuff is very smart.
[17:08]	Charlette Proto:	is the problem with dead HUDs on 1.26.3 known, I haven't experienced it and don't have a good repro
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	THere's code now to limit the size if you select a huge pile and "Take"
[17:08]	Moon Metty:	good work
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	Lime - Andrew and I work mostly on the simulator (server) side
[17:08]	Lime Breen:	I see
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard of the "dead HUD's" problem.
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's general Andrew concern, but he codes for the servers
[17:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think he was refering to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3867 and a coupole others I thik,
[17:08]	Lime Breen:	in that case, when are avatar ragdolls coming
[17:09]	Maya Remblai:	Only HUD problems I've had has been alpha messing up in 1.23
[17:09]	Techwolf Lupindo:	(chat lag)
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	The 1.23 doesn't take up coalesced objects?
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler wanted to show off a coalesced object
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	1.23.3 has some limits on "Take" and the like which will tell you to select fewer objects if you have more than 1000
[17:10]	Latif Khalifa:	1.23.3?? or 1.26.3?
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Sorry, 1.26.3
[17:10]	Moon Metty:	)
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-3867... I tried to reproduce that one and failed, a while ago though.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	That bug's comments are pretty long.
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well it all comes back to the need for hierarchical objects. All this messing around with coalesced and with partial returns and with inability of place constructions elsewhere is just fallout from The Big Problem --- no hierarchical objects in SL.
[17:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, Coalescences of more than 1,000 prims, or does that mean I should dump the duplicate freebies of my inventory?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	I won't try to read them now, but maybe tomorrow I can get a chance to read it.
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	There are lots of problems with big coalesced objects - they may take too long to rez, for example, and time out, or not fit onto the target parcel easily when you re-rez
[17:11]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	I'm talking about HUDs not working on 1.26.3 server with 1.22 viewer
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tackle the real problem, and all the little ones go away.
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	Charlette - I haven't heard of that one
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, do you know the jira number for that bug?
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Has it been entered into the system yet?
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:12]	Moon Metty:	hi Rex
[17:12]	Phantom Ninetails:	Hello
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Rex.
[17:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hewwo, Wexxy
[17:12]	Simon Linden:	hi Rex
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Rex
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	hiii:)
[17:12]	Phantom Ninetails:	So as I was saying.. I've been noticing consistently low performance in Sandbox Goguen and Sandbox Cordova (where I usually go).
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	sry no I'm just interrogating people who told me about it and haven't seen JIRA on those HUDs yet
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	anybody using thenew rc viewer?
[17:13]	Maya Remblai:	NO! SHHEEESE...
[17:13]	Maya Remblai:	Dear lord,
[17:13]	Maya Remblai:	ack
[17:13]	Maya Remblai:	sorry
[17:13]	Maya Remblai:	I didn't know I had that
[17:13]	Lime Breen:	personal question: what is your favorite line of server code
[17:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's funny how Rex is always late to all meeting, everywhere, all the time, no exception, forever. :-) So it's not lateness, it's a plan :-)
[17:13]	Lime Breen:	don't be modest
[17:13]	Maya Remblai finds it and deactivates
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	I'm curious if it has something to do with TPs between 1.26.2 and 1.26.2
[17:14]	Moon Metty:	his name is Rex Cronon ...
[17:14]	Arawn Spitteler woners if anyone knows what happened at Beaumont, yesterday
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	The server code is rather unremarkable... except the bad stuff.
[17:14]	Yuu Nakamichi:	heh
[17:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC-93 will lead to some remarkable code
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Also, SVC-22. SVC-2931 simply leads to a remarkable administration
[17:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah, you think Rex's last name is not really Cronon, but Chronon, as in "Time"? And it's always Time - 15m ? ;-)
[17:15]	Phantom Ninetails:	No performance discussion today I guess..
[17:15]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, 15 minutes to SVC-22 this week
[17:15]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, are you familiar with the group im code, has it been changed recently from UDP ImprovedInstantMessage to CAPS and is it possible that some groups are done in one way, while others in the other
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	My favorite bits of code are when I can clean up some mess and collapse it into a few concise lines. Sometimes it happens.
[17:16]	Rex Cronon:	i am not always late:) and i have reasons each time i am. like for example today. i log in, and i discovered that i either need a microscope to see the new fonts, or i need to buy a wall projector
[17:16]	Lime Breen:	do you then comment the code saying //Andrew linden just owned these lines of code
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	The group IM code changed to a new system a fairly long time ago... about a year I think.
[17:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: refactoring is very satisfying :-)
[17:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	But hard
[17:16]	Latif Khalifa:	hmm strange
[17:16]	Simon Linden:	Latif - that may also depend on the viewer version. Typically the logic is if (have cap) use new way else use old way
[17:16]	Techwolf Lupindo returns
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	did we even keep the old group IM stuff around? I'm pretty sure that was purged.
[17:17]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, and the sim would know how to send the message?
[17:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	there was another jira entry I was searching for about a LSL function that was killing sim performace. I can't find it now.
[17:17]	Simon Linden:	I don't know the details - I think there were some backend changes with 1.23 that were supposed to help with IMs
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	I don't see how we could have maintained the old stuff, but then group IM has been through a few rewrites. I can't remember the last two of them (I wasn't involved).
[17:17]	Lime Breen:	I heard there was something coming that would limit scripts per sim in the same way that prims are limited per sim
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	sadly at the time this avatar was created the name cronos wasn't available:(
[17:18]	Lime Breen:	is there truth to this?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	yes Lime, script resource limits are a project that we want to work on
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rex: hehe
[17:18]	Simon Linden:	Lime - we're thinking about it. It's part of a general effort to improve performance, which includes allocating them fairly
[17:18]	Simon Linden:	.. allocating resources fairly
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	I have some observations about the loss of automated vehicles at region border crossing. I have 3 vehicles running in different areas of SL. O Ntwo occasions I have seen loss at borders within 1 minute or 2 of each other at 2 of the locations, and one loss of all 3 vehicles in a 4 minute span. This seems to me to point to Some common aseet server problem.
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I think the script resources would be allocated by parcel-area first, with some portion of resources avaiable to attachments and the public
[17:19]	Lime Breen:	would it affect avatar scripts like script that have a million listeners just to change colors of prim wings and suchs?
[17:19]	Lime Breen:	ah thanks
[17:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	There have to be throttles on any resource that can be exhausted. That's just normal good engineering practice. You never want to hit the machine limit where things collapse.
[17:19]	Latif Khalifa:	i think the limits are going to be number of scripts and total memory they use
[17:20]	Simon Linden:	And possibly execution time
[17:20]	Maya Remblai:	Which happens quite a lot in SL, at the moment
[17:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Seawolf Dragons do not use that methiod. The root prim changes the colors of the prims directory. Seawolf Dragon do not lag the sim.
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed. Not all the resources have been properly throttled/limited yet.
[17:20]	Maya Remblai:	Uh...when did we start talking about Seawolf?
[17:20]	Latif Khalifa:	so you will buy 512 parcel with 117 prims and 512kb of scritp memory :)
[17:21]	Maya Remblai gets tired of being sat on and stands on the table instead
[17:21]	Simon Linden:	Right, and your prim counts will be checked by the bouncer at the club door :)
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect script resources will be tied to parcel area -- the more area the larger piece of the pie you can reserve.
[17:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Awww, poor Maya :-(
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	If you don't use your piece then it goes up for grabs to the rest of the resources consumers.
[17:21]	Arawn Spitteler didn't notice he was standing on anyone
[17:22]	Phantom Ninetails:	It was mentioned when you sat on him
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I dunno the state of that project. Babbage Linden will be leading that effort, and he holds office hours I think.
[17:22]	Maya Remblai:	Her ;P
[17:22]	Phantom Ninetails:	Oh sorry :P
[17:22]	Latif Khalifa:	but you would need to implement an easy way to tell how much memory/whatever limited resource an object uses the same way we can easily tell what's eating our prim allocation
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	How could I have sat on her? Is there a vagueness of sitting on people?
[17:23]	Maya Remblai:	you sat on the chair I was sitting on instead of sitting in the empty chair XD
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, some resource visualization will probably be required.
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	The LL dev's developing it will need to be able to debug it.
[17:23]	Maya Remblai:	On topic, that would be very helpful. As it is, only estate managers and owners can see script timing and such
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Eventually that data will get published in the SL client UI, if not as soon as the resource limits are deployed.
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	object/avatar/parcel script cost display please (even if griefers can use it to tune their tools too)
[17:24]	Arawn Spitteler hopes his current chair was empty
[17:24]	Latif Khalifa:	I think it would be great if you could right click on an object and on the edit window see next to the prim count, script resource usage
[17:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The ability to see script resorces on the sim and avatars will greatly help technicial admin with sim performance.
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	agree with Latif + all avie + parcel
[17:24]	Yuu Nakamichi:	especially if it's correct :)
[17:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sounds like a Resource Consumption window in the viewer would be helpful, not just as an Advanced option. For everybody, not just EMs.
[17:25]	Moon Metty:	oh yes, Simon, are you working on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3819 ?
[17:25]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, as part of object properties, the same way prims are
[17:25]	Moon Metty:	the topscripts bug?
[17:25]	Simon Linden:	Moon - are you talking about the times adding up?
[17:26]	Moon Metty:	i don't know what's adding up lol
[17:26]	Arawn Spitteler had crash reports from an unidentified script, some time ago: It would b handy, to access decent info on what we're wearing.
[17:26]	Moon Metty:	but with the help of Phantom i discovered something today
[17:26]	Charlette Proto:	agree with Morgaine, not just usefull but a must
[17:27]	Simon Linden:	I have an open bug ... if you add up the 'top scripts' time, and compare it to the script time shown in the ctrl-shift-1 panel, they're different.
[17:27]	Moon Metty:	it's not only llSleep, it's also built in delyays, like with llSetPos
[17:27]	Simon Linden:	I want to know where the time goes
[17:27]	Yuu Nakamichi:	me too :)
[17:27]	Moon Metty:	yes, Yuu worked on it too
[17:27]	Yuu Nakamichi:	/*
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	* Updated : April 29th, 2009
	* Website : http://www.valacar.com/userstyles/
	* Description : Modifies the colors, logos, and a few other images on YouTube (http://youtube.com/)
	* Usage : Use with Stylish Firefox extension (http://userstyles.org/) or copy to your Firefox userContent.css file
	@namespace url(http:	//www.w3.org/1999/xhtml);
	@-moz-document domain("youtube.com") {
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[17:27]	Yuu Nakamichi:	sorry
[17:27]	Yuu Nakamichi:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4152
[17:27]	Kitto Flora:	Its Tops Script total always less that The STats Panet scripts time?
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	???
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	Yes Kitto, that's it
[17:28]	Kitto Flora:	Well Top Scripts is that -Top ones only
[17:28]	Kitto Flora:	Stats is ALL time used by script engine per frame?
[17:28]	Lime Breen:	consider this puzzle: "If a tree falls in the woods and no ones around does it make a sound" do sims turn off scripts when there are no active agents in it?
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	Right, but if you do the math giving all the un-listed ones the same time as the lowest, it still doesn't add up
[17:29]	Kitto Flora:	Lime: No
[17:29]	Lime Breen:	would it make sense to?
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think that's been considered, Lime
[17:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Although the viewer isn't on topic here, generating and sending the data on resource consumption down to the viewer is. I think that probably dovetails between the work here and Q's work on notifications/events.
[17:29]	Kitto Flora:	Lime: In fact sims runs scripts even when the sim isnt 'there' !
[17:29]	Simon Linden:	It may just be a case that the extra time switching between scripts, etc isn't counted
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Lime, if a tree falls in SL and no one is in the region... it still falls. The regions are spinning full tilt even when empty.
[17:29]	Phantom Ninetails:	I'm glad they don't, Lime, vendors need in-world servers to give sold items/updates to people
[17:29]	Lime Breen:	ah I see
[17:29]	Moon Metty:	well, it's an important bug , SVC-3819
[17:30]	Moon Metty:	2 days ago the estate owner returned some objects
[17:30]	Yuu Nakamichi:	there seem to be various ways to trigger it moon?
[17:30]	Moon Metty:	he thought they were topscripts
[17:30]	Moon Metty:	but they are not
[17:30]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yeah, that is the obvious consequence
[17:30]	Moon Metty:	a script like that consumes only 3 microseconds
[17:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: there must be some event types for which it doesn't matter that the tree doesn't fall down in the forest when there's nobody to witness it :-))))))
[17:31]	Moon Metty:	not the 0,1 ms the topscripts reports
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Yes actually Morgaine there are a few such events.
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	The random tree falls event might record the time stamp
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	The "interestlist" code which figures out what stuff to is visible to an avatar in SL is not instantiated if no one is in the region.
[17:32]	Lime Breen:	ah thats what I wanted to nkow
[17:32]	Latif Khalifa hates interest list code
[17:32]	Latif Khalifa:	i cannot see 0.5m objects from 20m away
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	But, if a "tree" were scripted to fall... it would still fall.
[17:32]	Maya Remblai:	Is that was does that? I hate that too
[17:32]	Maya Remblai:	I can't see my fireflies
[17:32]	Latif Khalifa:	Maya, yeah the infamous too agressive interest list
[17:33]	Phantom Ninetails:	I too wish I was able to see small things further away..
[17:33]	Moon Metty:	Latif, i isolated that bug
[17:33]	Moon Metty:	i think CG is on that one
[17:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	When I zoom out to get a simwide shot, no matter how far out the setting on my client, things still diseaper and ruin the shot.
[17:33]	Latif Khalifa:	everybody would like to see smaller objects from farther away, but sim says "no, you don't really want to see that" :P
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't clear to me right now if those bugs are interestlist or client-side culling.
[17:33]	Maya Remblai:	Yeah, cranking the RenderVolumeLOD fixes most of the LOD issues, but nothing that I know of fixes the culling thing.
[17:33]	Latif Khalifa:	its the interest list
[17:34]	Phantom Ninetails:	Preventing us from seeing small things far away is mostly done by the server.
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	If the objects aren't moving around, and you've seen it once, then it's probably client-side
[17:34]	Lime Breen:	client side it might be interesting if SS's did an automatic *turn on* of everything if requested
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Ok. I would not be surprised.
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	The sim isn't sending "don't show this, it's too far" messages
[17:34]	Lime Breen:	screenshots* that is
[17:34]	Maya Remblai:	My magic disappearing fireflies do move
[17:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	GFX260 with X4 CPU with 8G of RAM, I can handle the details, and sence it a photoshoot, 1 frame per second won't matter.
[17:35]	Yuu Nakamichi:	how does the interest list code work?
[17:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: it's one of the premises of OGP scalability that caps will provide highly detailed control over the interest list, so that ultimately if you have interest in nothing then you get nothing. It's not become concrete yet though, in AWG/OGP nor in MMOX/OGP. For some reason Zero is reticent to talk about things these days, so it's going to be hard addressing it.
[17:35]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, the sim says you are 20m away, i will not send you ObjectUpdate at all for this 0.5m prim
[17:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	.5 or .05?
[17:35]	Latif Khalifa:	half a meter
[17:35]	Maya Remblai:	.5 in some cases
[17:35]	Moon Metty:	0.635
[17:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Maybe we should talk about the OGP-controlled interest list here instead :-)
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	Latif - I understand, but if you were closer earlier, your viewer knows about the object then
[17:35]	Latif Khalifa:	moon has an exact number
[17:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	At only 20 meters?
[17:36]	Moon Metty:	worst case not to appear in the scene is 16m
[17:36]	Moon Metty:	worst case to dissapear is 22.6
[17:36]	Moon Metty:	i can't find the jira sorry
[17:36]	Latif Khalifa:	yes, that's 0.635 object, not exactly small
[17:36]	Latif Khalifa:	but the interest list thingie is too aggresive :)
[17:37]	Latif Khalifa:	reduces lag though :P
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	An OGP-controlled interestlist would probably just be a "subscribe to info" model, where the server publishes the streams that it offers and the client subscribes/unsubscribes as it see's fit.
[17:37]	Moon Metty:	only horizontally
[17:37]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Reduces lag for who?
[17:37]	Maya Remblai:	I haven't seen any benefit at all to the interest list culling stuff
[17:37]	Latif Khalifa:	for the viewer
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	No Maya, the intereslist code is long overdue for work.
[17:38]	Latif Khalifa:	the viewer for blind people that has a blank screen and totally fascist interest list would achieve tremendous frame rates :P
[17:38]	Kitto Flora:	What isnt?
[17:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	While I am in favor of reducing lag, but I don't want to be "punished" for it.
[17:38]	Maya Remblai snerks
[17:38]	Maya Remblai:	Yeah, if I'm on MY sim, looking at MY scenery, I want to SEE it, all of it
[17:38]	Phantom Ninetails:	A blind person viewer? Would it be in braille?
[17:38]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[17:38]	Lime Breen:	it'd probably be in the command prompt
[17:38]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol
[17:38]	Phantom Ninetails:	That I'd like to see.
[17:39]	Maya Remblai:	"You walk into a forest. There's a rock over there."
[17:39]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol
[17:39]	Latif Khalifa:	lola is like that
[17:39]	LoLa Varriale:	I think so, but I'm not sure. Ask Kristina if it is.
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Run MUD
[17:39]	Yuu Nakamichi:	so anyway, I would like to hear about updates if you find out more about the script time bug simon :)
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	On the groundis: A key; A lamp
[17:39]	Phantom Ninetails:	"Suddenly, banana phones are flying at you, pushing you around, someone yells griefer"
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	get key
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	get lamp
[17:39]	Yuu Nakamichi:	there might be several isseus rolled inti one here still
[17:39]	Maya Remblai:	"You can't get ye key!"
[17:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: yep, that's the idea. The caps simply give you the "key" by which the sim accepts your request as kosher. For backwards compatibility you'd probably request a package deal of interest list items, but a Limited Capability Client (like on a cellphone or Braille reader) might request nothing but vicinity chat or music for example.
[17:39]	Yuu Nakamichi:	inot*
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	look key
[17:40]	Latif Khalifa:	"banana phones" -- that's how kids call it these days? :P adult filter proof as a bonus too lol
[17:40]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol
[17:40]	Yuu Nakamichi:	you haven't been aaround in the 60s latif :)
[17:40]	Lime Breen:	lindenz: what's the pipe dream currently, server side wise, what would you like to see but technology is limiting it
[17:40]	Latif Khalifa:	Yuu, appearently not haha
[17:40]	Rex Cronon:	banana phnes are adult items. lol
[17:40]	Techwolf Lupindo:	+5 insightfull to Latif.
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	I'm looking forward to the subscription model interestlist. We would be able to coalesce the data for multiple subscribers.
[17:41]	Latif Khalifa:	hey, English is only my 3rd language ;)
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Right now we do some per-agent info caching that makes the interestlist code not scale well.
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	So the interestlist is probably the main bottleneck for per-region avatar limits right now.
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	I'd like to see large regions - more than 256x256
[17:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Lime: on behalf of Lindenz, I'd guess that the answer is "Event messaging that doesn't fall apart under congestion" :-)
[17:41]	Yuu Nakamichi:	couldnt agree more simon
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	Probably best thing would be "infinitely large and fast database", but that's not as fun
[17:42]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, forget about it (search the code for 256 and you will see why) :P
[17:42]	Lime Breen:	wouldn't that be sort of like extending the build limit to 4000 meters?
[17:42]	Phantom Ninetails:	I was thinking of what larger than 256x256 would mean, as well. Mainlanders would lose neighbors that way, for example.
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	I have, both viewer and server side :)
[17:42]	Lime Breen:	or is it more complex?
[17:42]	Arawn Spitteler imagines the arrival of Godzilla being los in the NYC Subway System
[17:42]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I like to see sim crossing fixed. Why can't both sime handle the avatar at the same time and handoff after the avatar has cross away from the border.
[17:42]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, didn't give up on it yet? haha
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	Techwolf - agreed, sim crossings need work and there are definitely places that can be improved
[17:43]	Latif Khalifa:	Techwolf, that would put the same kind of load on both sims
[17:43]	Latif Khalifa:	so if you have 40 avis in neighbouring sim, it would be equivalent of having 40 in your own
[17:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	How's progress with Agent Domain? Would that help in crossings?
[17:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Land acreage is different to scalability though. It's completely trivial to make an island with land 100,000 x 100,000m but that wouldn't make the region scalable ... its capacity to hold people in a single event wouldn't change.
[17:44]	Phantom Ninetails:	Nearby sims could at least cache some of the attachments before you cross into them..
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	u could have some fun driving 100km:)
[17:44]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol, it already is kind of "fun"
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	Crossings are mostly a problem with the amount of data sent around, the long conversation the two regions have, and dealing with all the attachments and vehicles and scripts
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	40 avatars in the neighboring region... if they can see into your region then yes, those avatars have intances of interestlist code that is handling what they can see "across the border"
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	ie., just about everything :)
[17:44]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Only if they are at 10m from the border. But there is the problem of large clubs using fours sim corners. So this is going to be a challenge on how to handle that.
[17:45]	Maya Remblai:	I was talking about that with someone recently. For instance, the idea of fewer prims in open space is good, but Homesteads are a poor execution. It would be better to have 15k prims on, say, double the land size
[17:45]	Phantom Ninetails:	That's why I was thinking nearby sims could cache attachments before you enter them.
[17:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can't scale regions by region subdivision, that's a broken model. Done the analysis.
[17:45]	Simon Linden:	Well, attachments often have a script state, which can't be cached
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	pre-emptive data transmission. that idea has been kicked around alot
[17:45]	Phantom Ninetails:	You can cache everything but the script state, then
[17:46]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah moving running scripts is a bitch
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	more load I bet if everything is preemtively transmitted and never needed
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	so... "cache everything but the script state" you would say, "wouldn't that help?"
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	If sim A and B knew they were both running the same version of code, then there's probably something we could take ad
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	... advantage of
[17:46]	Phantom Ninetails:	I would think it would help.
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	yes it would, but overhauling our object data streaming to accept partial data would be a pre-requisite
[17:47]	Lime Breen:	Confirm this rumor: 1 meter in secondlife is actually calculated as 1 centimeter and we are all in a tiny virtual world
[17:47]	Moon Metty:	flashback, this is the jira or the interst list https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5588
[17:47]	Lime Breen:	admi tit
[17:47]	Maya Remblai snerks
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	Lime - we'll never confirm or deny it
[17:47]	Lime Breen:	blast
[17:47]	Latif Khalifa:	Lime, don't tell me there is no santa either!
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	Let's just say you shouldn't only think metric, ok?
[17:47]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Has any work been done on SVC-3895?
[17:47]	Latif Khalifa has his concept of the world crushed in a second
[17:47]	Maya Remblai:	Can't be, Lime, because then I'd be a single cell organism, and I'm clearly not. ;P
[17:48]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[17:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Well, he puts naughty children in the bag, rather than taking presents out...
[17:48]	Latif Khalifa:	Maya could be a virus :P
[17:48]	Maya Remblai:	:o
[17:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Of course there is Santa! What do you think holds up the group IM system? Oh wait ...
[17:48]	Moon Metty:	mexican swines ....
[17:48]	Latif Khalifa:	lol morg
[17:48]	Latif Khalifa:	well something broke group IM for lola
[17:48]	LoLa Varriale:	Well that's okay. What?
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know if anything has been done on that.
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage Linden might know.
[17:49]	Moon Metty:	oh yes, that's still an issue Andrew
[17:49]	Latif Khalifa:	i am getting ChatterBoxInvitation over caps sometimes and sometimes ImprovedInstantMessage via UDP, i will figure it out :P
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	I know that some LSL/MONO fixes have gone into some of the maint-server branches that I manage
[17:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: interesting
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	but most of the recent ones have not gone into server-1.26
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	they would go into server-1.27 or later
[17:50]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, need to fix the important things first, maturity access controls :P
[17:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[17:50]	Maya Remblai giggles
[17:50]	Charlette Proto:	hehe Adult Latif
[17:50]	Moon Metty:	stop looking at my great tits
[17:50]	Phantom Ninetails:	lol
[17:51]	Latif Khalifa:	where are they?
[17:51]	Moon Metty:	oh umm
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	what are you doing with the cam under the table Latif
[17:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well we're not the only ones who think someone at LL has a daft sense of priorities .... a ton of techie Lindens do too.
[17:51]	Techwolf Lupindo:	wow...the one AC related pjira just got 500 votes.
[17:51]	Maya Remblai:	pfhahahah I didn't notice that Moon XD
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to leave right at 18:00 -- I've got to be somewhere at 19:00
[17:51]	Maya Remblai:	Nice one
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler's opposed to Maturity Access Controls: Age controls aren't a real good idea, but Maturity? How would the developers ever get access?
[17:51]	Maya Remblai:	Hahahahaha
[17:51]	Lime Breen:	ice burn
[17:51]	Latif Khalifa:	good point lol
[17:52]	Phantom Ninetails:	Didn't really get to talk about the recent performance problems..
[17:52]	Rex Cronon:	u can use wow experience for points:)
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	well... Bub Linden would definitely get excluded
[17:52]	Yuu Nakamichi:	3895 has a long comment thread
[17:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	A better question is how any puritans will ever get through the access controls, since they can't face maturity.
[17:52]	Latif Khalifa:	lola are you an adult?
[17:52]	Maya Remblai:	Morgaine, exactly...I had a JIRA argument with BigPapi yesterday, that was...interesting. His point of view I mean.
[17:52]	LoLa Varriale:	I was first activated in 2007/23/09.
[17:52]	Latif Khalifa:	Lola, then you are just a kid lol
[17:52]	LoLa Varriale:	Fascinating. Just? Yes I have a long way to go.I'm glad you find this amusing.
[17:52]	Moon Metty:	hmmm
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	These meeting are approacing the usefulness of LDPW meetings.
[17:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	LDPW?
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	YEs
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	I take it that you don't consider the LDPW meetings useful Kitto.
[17:53]	Lime Breen:	linDen PowWow
[17:53]	Maya Remblai:	Linden Department of Public Works
[17:53]	Phantom Ninetails:	Maybe some day I'll find a meeting where I can bring up the server's performance problems..
[17:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Maya: I missed that with BigPapi yesterday, go there late. I've been training with Rex for lateness :P
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	About as useful as taling to the Kremlin in 1960s. Same script writers, I'm sure.
[17:54]	Maya Remblai:	It was fascinating, his bizarre priorities.
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler marvels that Lola is too young for the Teen Grid: We had a plague of server crashes yesterday, at an office hour
[17:54]	LoLa Varriale:	YOU? And marvels that is too young for the teen grid we had a plague of server crashes yesterday at an office hour.
[17:54]	Rex Cronon:	u seem a lot better morgaine:)
[17:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[17:55]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Lola gets what Lola wants
[17:55]	LoLa Varriale:	YOU? Are you a man or a woman?
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	agrees with Kito, Soyuz rockets ran LSL if I remember well
[17:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Phantom: speak up about performance problems :-)
[17:55]	Phantom Ninetails:	I tried several times >:|
[17:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Can't address something that isn't spoken :-)
[17:56]	Techwolf Lupindo:	LoLa, they need to add https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4180
[17:56]	Yuu Nakamichi:	oh, one other point - is anything going to be done about move_start / move_end?
[17:56]	LoLa Varriale:	Who, specifically? We were talking about What are you wearing?. But I did not get that. Do you like being a unknown?
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	I think maybe I'm becoming less useful as a "office hour holder".
[17:56]	Lime Breen:	question: if second life was a boat where would it be heading: clear waters or into iceburgs?
[17:56]	Phantom Ninetails:	The server's been going unusually slow since the last update, possibly before, in Sandbox Cordova and Sandbox Goguen.
[17:56]	Maya Remblai:	Andrew: The only problem I see with office hours is there aren't enough of them.
[17:56]	Moon Metty:	lol Andrew
[17:56]	Simon Linden:	We do know there's a problem where performance slowly seems to degrade over days. Probably some sort of resource leak
[17:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: your OHs are some of the most technical open, and best. :-) Andrew++
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	I fix bugs, but I also manage some code branches and other "less productive" but totally busy work.
[17:57]	Charlette Proto:	in my humble opinion Andrew answers all questions promptly except those on Megaprims
[17:57]	Phantom Ninetails:	The sims spend alot of time between .30 and .50 TD
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	Phantom - is that from this morning?
[17:57]	Phantom Ninetails:	Nope, before that pilot roll
[17:57]	Maya Remblai:	I wanted to talk to Nyx, but she(?) only has one measly meeting time, and since I sleep in the day I didn't get to go
[17:57]	Yuu Nakamichi:	(the move events are apparently brkoen for quite some time now)
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	The pilot roll went out, and I think some of the sandboxes are on it
[17:57]	Maya Remblai:	I haven't seen Blue in months, and I consider him a friend
[17:58]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I prefer Lindens that tell it as it is. If they are fobidding to say something, just say so. We know how corperate poilisy is retarted at times.
[17:58]	Phantom Ninetails:	I don't think Goguen or Cordova were caught in today's roll.
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	But there wern't any performance fixes or memory leaks found in server-1.26.3 were there Simon?
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	I thought the big public sandboxes were meerly bait for griefers - a place for them to mess up sims.
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	We had... a crash bug fix and...
[17:58]	Simon Linden:	No changes from 1.26.0 to .3
[17:58]	Simon Linden:	performance changes, that is
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	wow, I fixed some of those bugs and have already forgotten what they were.
[17:58]	Latif Khalifa:	sim performace is somewhat of a russian rulette, if a region restarts and gets on a host with 3 other busy sims, all 4 suffer. if on the other hand it gets on a host with a linden protected sea sim it could run well until the next restart...
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, permissions bugs. How could I forget?
[17:59]	Maya Remblai:	Techwolf: YES. That was the issue I was having with BigPapi, more or less. He refused to speak to me at all, just copy-and-pasted some random buzzword type stuff.
[17:59]	Moon Metty:	:)
[17:59]	Phantom Ninetails:	Well I don't really know how long the performance problems have been happening as I was on a break from second life for a while.. Kind of came back to notice things much worse than ever before
[17:59]	Moon Metty:	i've seen some long simfreezes as well ... 15 seconds
[18:00]	Moon Metty:	no idea what's causing it
[18:00]	Phantom Ninetails:	It's been going on for at least a week.
[18:00]	Lime Breen:	last question andrew before you go, where do you prefer to read jira reports: next to an open fire, snuggled up in bed?
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	probably rezzes of very big assets Moon.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	ok I've got to run.
[18:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's always puzzled me why we get bumped off even Linden sea sims fairly regularly. I sometimes sit in a peaceful one when talking in IM.
[18:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Perhaps they shoud buy the IBM e-server pSeries 690, 256CPU/1024cores, 4TB ram computer I have.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[18:00]	Phantom Ninetails:	Fare well Andrew
[18:00]	Moon Metty:	thank you Andrew :)
[18:00]	Maya Remblai:	I can't comment on server perforamnce, I have pretty bad network issues right now
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[18:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Take care Andrew :-)
[18:00]	Moon Metty:	and Simon
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	byee Andrew
[18:00]	Simon Linden:	hmm, Sandbox Cordova is showing high script time, fwiw
[18:00]	Latif Khalifa:	thank you for your time andrew