Difference between revisions of "Talk:Project Motivation"

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== Scaling for events ==
{{architecture_header}}


I would like to add '''more scary numbers''' to the main namespace here.
== Notice ==
This page has grown too large.  Please move the discussion of events and event sizes to a new set of pages. [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]] 10:42, 16 October 2007 (PDT)


* If N people are interested in an event today, and the population grows tomorrow by a factor of M, then tomorrow N*M people will be interested in that event, assuming unchanging population demographics.
:* Done. All event scalability discussion now in [[Talk:Event_Scalability_VAG]]. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 03:17, 19 October 2007 (PDT)
:* Scalability for events seemed to have vanished from the 4-point list of dimensions of scalability earlier.  I can't see any discussion here related to that, so I reinstated the two lost lines since the need to scale for events has already endured many weeks of scrutiny and agreement from numerous wiki participants. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 13:11, 17 October 2007 (PDT)
:* The paragraph on discussion control has been moved to [[Talk:Event_Scalability_VAG#Discussion_control]]. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 03:24, 19 October 2007 (PDT)


* Every live music event by the top few SL musicians maxes out their event sim:  let's assume that this means 100 people, although the demand is undoubtedly higher already but not satisfied.  SL currently has just under 10m registered residents.  If the scary number for total population size is 2 billion, then the scary number for event interest is 100*2000/10 = 20,000 to an event region, given unchanging demographics.


* Of course, worldwide we do not have an unchanging demographic, but no matter by how much you want to reduce this figure as a result of this, the answer is still collosal.  And bear in mind that there is much uniformity in eastern populations, just as there is in the west, so event interest within each cultural domain will be huge. And of course many events are cross-cultural.
== First paragraph ==
Shouldn't the first paragraph explain for which project this is the motivation off? Or there be some link back at the top, that says part off..


* Which brings me to the issue that nobody seems to want to tackle:  the new architecture needs scalability for events.
I just came to this page accidently, when searching for something else. I know what it is about, but for someone who doesn't, it isn't clear. Also the title makes you think this is a Project named Motivation and not the motivation for a project.
The same goes for other pages, like the use cases. [[User:Frans Charming|Frans Charming]] 05:23, 7 October 2007 (PDT)


* While I recognize fully that there are monumental hurdles in the way of achieving this, it is just an engineering problem with a number of known partial solutions and amenable to tradeoffs.  Worse, not addressing it will leave us exactly where we are today, with zero scalability for events.  And, very unhappily, SL will become the virtual world where almost everybody is barred from their favorite event.  19,900 people out of every 20,000 will have to stay at home.  That's not the future system we want to build, in my view.
:* There could be some confusion, yes.  I'm surprised that there isn't a link to the parent in the title of each of these main namespace pages that are children of [[Architecture_Working_Group]].  However, note that this is not possible in the wiki generally, since many pages can point to the same child as a top-level entry.  In this particular case it would probably work.  As for changing all the children's names to make the AWG: namespace explicit ... that would break an immense number of links! Unless there is a tool to automatically change all references suitably, it's best avoided.  And it wouldn't fix the offsite references and bookmarks that already exist anyway. :-) There are probably other solutions though. Anyone? --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 08:55, 8 October 2007 (PDT)




* Please add at least 10,000 per '''region''' to the scary numbers, to focus the mind. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 21:07, 24 September 2007 (PDT)
== Wolves at the gates ==
* Excellent addition, Strife, and central to ''Project Motivation''!  I guess Sony HOME and Google MyWorld will be candidates for this section too. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 03:59, 2 October 2007 (PDT)


* I mentioned this at Zero's Office Hours today, but no traffic yet, so added it myself. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 17:42, 25 September 2007 (PDT)
* A shiver ran through me Strife, when I realized that you'd added the subtitle "'''Competitors'''" to this section ... because that implies that there are wolves at the gate other than mere competitors.  And that made me focus on reality:  the worst wolf isn't actually a wolf (which merely competes to survive) at all, but a 10-ton vicious predator ... the coercive T-Rex that is the politician surrounded by his retinue of lobbyists, litigants, Luddites, puritans, and vested interests.  The real enemy isn't competition, as the playing field is level there.  It's much worse. --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 06:38, 4 October 2007 (PDT)


=== Zha's comments on events ===
* Rob, good comment in the changelog about Strife's section title and the link to a commercial site. :-)  Perhaps Strife could abstract the key elements of that system for us instead.  After all, AWG's focus is not only on scalability but also on interoperability.  The existence of commercial offerings like that one certainly needs to be borne in mind, since they will be providing infrastructure for other virtual worlds with which in time we will need to interoperate.  And any claimed figures related to scalability are of particular interest! :-) --[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 17:37, 10 October 2007 (PDT)


The event discussion came up at the AWG kickoff, and comes up from time to time in Zero's office hours. At the heart of the event discussion is the desire to host very large events inside the SecondLife environment. This raises the question, what will 200, 500, 1000, 10,000, 20,000 users be able to do in a single contiguous portion of second life space. Assuming for a moment, we could manage the simulator side space, what would a client see? At 100 avatars in a sim, my current screen is pretty much solid avatars with a cloud of tags floating over them, all in constant motion. (Granted we're also all in concrete, in the current sims, but we'll assume that can be fixed.)
:: Actually, my comment was about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business-to-consumer consumer-facing] site. Links to commercial sites aren't verboten, but they need to have appropriate context. If one of the other (commercial) virtual world companies posts an interesting architecture document on their website, it's perfectly reasonable to cite it.  However, if the page being linked to is just a site geared toward attracting signups for a virtual world service (consumer-facing), that's very rarely appropriate. -- [[User:Rob Linden|Rob Linden]] 12:54, 17 October 2007 (PDT)
 
Somewhere north of 500 avatars, I can't see how I could render more than a fraction of them, nor could I interact with more than those I could see right near me. So, and I am quite serious about this question, what are we attempting to achieve. If the answer is "let us all share the stream" I'll point out that the streams are orthogonal to SecondLife. If it is interactivity, in the current style of SecondLife, I'd like to see a use case for how we could produce an interesting user experience with the number of avatars I listed above in ear shot. How fast will the chat window scroll? How fast will people's "nearby" windows update? How many avatars do we expect our scripted objects to be able to sense, and how will we even see most of the avatars
 
Beyond the user experience, we also should look at some hard technical questions. How many Kbits per seconds of updates are needed to support each of these size points? Can we get that from current networking hardware. Look at these questoins, Simulator to Client, Simulator to adjacent Simulators, and Simulator to utilities, and agent domains.
 
This isn't a simple "let's quash the idea" post, far from it. But If we are asserting this as a desire, lets actually produce some use cases which describe what we are trying to enable.  "20,000 in an event" isn't a requirement I can design against. Give use some use cases which describe the actual user experiences that we wish to enable. Look hard at questions like "How will chat look, how will visibility work, how would scripting behave." Capture these in use cases.
 
I will suggest, for example, that some use case can be solved by better inter-region behavior. Others, would only be solved by attempting to limit the interactions between avatars in significant ways. Serious discussion, backed by used cases, would be invaluable here.
 
- [[User:Zha Ewry]] 9/25/2007

Latest revision as of 03:24, 19 October 2007

Architecture Working Group main Project Motivation Proposed Architecture Use Cases In World Chatlogs

Notice

This page has grown too large. Please move the discussion of events and event sizes to a new set of pages. Zero Linden 10:42, 16 October 2007 (PDT)

  • Done. All event scalability discussion now in Talk:Event_Scalability_VAG. --Morgaine Dinova 03:17, 19 October 2007 (PDT)
  • Scalability for events seemed to have vanished from the 4-point list of dimensions of scalability earlier. I can't see any discussion here related to that, so I reinstated the two lost lines since the need to scale for events has already endured many weeks of scrutiny and agreement from numerous wiki participants. --Morgaine Dinova 13:11, 17 October 2007 (PDT)
  • The paragraph on discussion control has been moved to Talk:Event_Scalability_VAG#Discussion_control. --Morgaine Dinova 03:24, 19 October 2007 (PDT)


First paragraph

Shouldn't the first paragraph explain for which project this is the motivation off? Or there be some link back at the top, that says part off..

I just came to this page accidently, when searching for something else. I know what it is about, but for someone who doesn't, it isn't clear. Also the title makes you think this is a Project named Motivation and not the motivation for a project. The same goes for other pages, like the use cases. Frans Charming 05:23, 7 October 2007 (PDT)

  • There could be some confusion, yes. I'm surprised that there isn't a link to the parent in the title of each of these main namespace pages that are children of Architecture_Working_Group. However, note that this is not possible in the wiki generally, since many pages can point to the same child as a top-level entry. In this particular case it would probably work. As for changing all the children's names to make the AWG: namespace explicit ... that would break an immense number of links! Unless there is a tool to automatically change all references suitably, it's best avoided. And it wouldn't fix the offsite references and bookmarks that already exist anyway. :-) There are probably other solutions though. Anyone? --Morgaine Dinova 08:55, 8 October 2007 (PDT)


Wolves at the gates

  • Excellent addition, Strife, and central to Project Motivation! I guess Sony HOME and Google MyWorld will be candidates for this section too. --Morgaine Dinova 03:59, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
  • A shiver ran through me Strife, when I realized that you'd added the subtitle "Competitors" to this section ... because that implies that there are wolves at the gate other than mere competitors. And that made me focus on reality: the worst wolf isn't actually a wolf (which merely competes to survive) at all, but a 10-ton vicious predator ... the coercive T-Rex that is the politician surrounded by his retinue of lobbyists, litigants, Luddites, puritans, and vested interests. The real enemy isn't competition, as the playing field is level there. It's much worse. --Morgaine Dinova 06:38, 4 October 2007 (PDT)
  • Rob, good comment in the changelog about Strife's section title and the link to a commercial site. :-) Perhaps Strife could abstract the key elements of that system for us instead. After all, AWG's focus is not only on scalability but also on interoperability. The existence of commercial offerings like that one certainly needs to be borne in mind, since they will be providing infrastructure for other virtual worlds with which in time we will need to interoperate. And any claimed figures related to scalability are of particular interest! :-) --Morgaine Dinova 17:37, 10 October 2007 (PDT)
Actually, my comment was about consumer-facing site. Links to commercial sites aren't verboten, but they need to have appropriate context. If one of the other (commercial) virtual world companies posts an interesting architecture document on their website, it's perfectly reasonable to cite it. However, if the page being linked to is just a site geared toward attracting signups for a virtual world service (consumer-facing), that's very rarely appropriate. -- Rob Linden 12:54, 17 October 2007 (PDT)
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